Legit though, DMC4 sucked.

[TWOxACROSS]

Vamp suddenly become nanomachine infused creature, and they cancelled his abilities. As for Big Boss. Well i know they did the best to explain how he wasn't really evil. They just went overboard, since brainwashing and mass murder is wrong.

Vamp didn't suddenly "become a nanomachine infused creature", he was from the moment we saw him in MGS2, we just didn't know it was nanomachines or other technology letting him do many of the things he did.

Big Boss? They've gone to great lengths to make him a sympathetic character, but there's also some key information we're still waiting on from Phantom Pain (and possibly beyond) that turns him into the man who wanted to nuke the world from Outer Heaven from Metal Gear 1.

 

[Innsmouth]

It does follow a logical line you nincompoop. Just because it goes all over the place doesn't mean it's inconsistent. Seriously, you know what consistency is, and every plotpoint and fact in the series is consistent. Stop f#cking around.

Logical line isn't throwing random episodes in, without previous build up to it. As much as i like birth by sleep, it pretty much throws in something of global proportions out of blue. (and by they way, there is more intelligent communication than swearing)

He did drink blood. They even explained why he drank blood - he developed a taste for it when he had to survive off the blood of his dead family when he was trapped in a bombed out church, with a cross sticking through his chest no less. Van der Waals technology is used to explain him sitting on the water for the same reason as him being able to run on the water. The FROGs who use the same technology are able to simply sit on walls and ceilings using it..

Problem is that whole mystical explanation was given in MGS2. In Mgs4 they just thrown it from the window. Simple as that. That's not a new direction.

So...yeah...you apparently didn't pay enough attention, and neither did the "MGS community" you're claiming supports what you say.

Used to hang with alot of them. Nice way once again talking as if you know what others a re thinking.

Even Vamp's mystical Kagenui (shadow-binding) from MGS2 was suggested by Otacon to be a form of hypnotic suggestion - in MGS2.

Yeah right...so now he has hypnosis...why than he suddenly lost it?

Go ahead and double down, man. You're opinion of how you felt about it doesn't change the fact that making drama for undeveloped characters doesn't make for good pathetic storytelling. It's literally the reason why characterization exists and writers strive for it.

Well,it's not me who forcing opinion. Using divine commedy as a source and using it's symbolical parallels is actually pretty decent idea and writing. Guess you just can'T explain how some characters lacking characterization outgrow some characters that attempted to be characterized as complex characters.

 

[Innsmouth]

Vamp didn't suddenly "become a nanomachine infused creature", he was from the moment we saw him in MGS2, we just didn't know it was nanomachines or other technology letting him do many of the things he did.

Big Boss? They've gone to great lengths to make him a sympathetic character, but there's also some key information we're still waiting on from Phantom Pain (and possibly beyond) that turns him into the man who wanted to nuke the world from Outer Heaven from Metal Gear 1.

only it was explained in MGs2 only to be thrown out of the window. As for big boss, it's problem with MGS4, they made him sympathetic person once again AFTER he tried to nuke the world.

 

[Innsmouth]

Still, it does ruin everything Kojima had in mind when it came to Raiden and where he would end up. When Kojima was in charge of the game it was gonna be a bridge between MGS 2 and 4 clearly with Raiden's retirement in mind. I just don't see going f#cking crazy and doing this sh!t as anything logical he would do even if MGS is a series that als has very silly stuff.

Pulling out your whole stupid psychopath sh!t once more must be perfect for the wife and kids! You can just see it at the end of 4. He was at the point where he was done fighting. He was drained, tired, and as a person growing up doing NOTHING but fighting, it was time to stop. That was his resolution. The war was over.

I know I hate Raiden but damn, I've been with all these characters to still give a crap where it all goes.

Well because people hated him, Kojima just gave up on him and made him badass cyborg. That's how it is. I doubt he really cares about him, after ****storm with MGS2.

 

[Innsmouth]

^ This-Innsmouth, go ahead and ask any writer worth their salt, and they will agree with this. Writer's do strive to create dynamic characters; that is to say, they create characters with strengths and weaknesses (both psychologically and physically) as well as building on why the character says or does any of the things that they do; what motivates them, what cripples them, what makes them relatable on some level or another. Writer's strive to make you feel something about the characters, based on the trials said characters undertake; this isn't simply opinion-it is fact.

IT doesn't necessary need to be coupled with complete knowledge about character. Character isn't something one-dimensional as what we see on out monitors. Of course in books it's another case. But in films and video games, you can't really gave up what they think. so it's all about impression they left

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Logical line isn't throwing random episodes in, without previous build up to it. As much as i like birth by sleep, it pretty much throws in something of global proportions out of blue. (and by they way, there is more intelligent communication than swearing)

But that's not an inconsistency, which is what we were talking about. Random episodes fill in blanks or add new information, but they didn't create inconsistencies that contradict what is already there.

Problem is that whole mystical explanation was given in MGS2. In Mgs4 they just thrown it from the window. Simple as that. That's not a new direction.

His abilities were perceived as mystical in MGS2 because we were given no other information that justified their existence beyond mysticism. Not until MGS4 when it succinctly explained how the stuff worked.

Used to hang with alot of them. Nice way once again talking as if you know what others a re thinking.

Dude, if those people didn't know those things I just said, then they truly weren't paying attention.

Yeah right...so now he has hypnosis...why than he suddenly lost it?

He didn't lose it, he stopped using it; because he only ever fought Raiden in MGS4, who was a man who defeated him previously. Raiden wasn't going to fall for his tricks again, so why would he bother using them.

A lack of use =/= loss of an ability.

Well,it's not me who forcing opinion. Using divine commedy as a source and using it's symbolical parallels is actually pretty decent idea and writing. Guess you just can'T explain how some characters lacking characterization outgrow some characters that attempted to be characterized as complex characters.

What the f#ck are you on about now...? Can you just stay on topic please, for once in your life?

only it was explained in MGs2 only to be thrown out of the window. As for big boss, it's problem with MGS4, they made him sympathetic person once again AFTER he tried to nuke the world.

They didn't throw anything out the window! They changed the audience's perception of how that sh!t worked, that's it.

AND NEED I REMIND YOU THAT NONE OF THIS SH!T IS INCONSISTENCIES?! Jesus H Tapdancing Christ on Eucharist cracker, you are just not listening.

 

[Chancey289]

Vamp suddenly become nanomachine infused creature, and they cancelled his abilities. As for Big Boss. Well i know they did the best to explain how he wasn't really evil. They just went overboard, since brainwashing and mass murder is wrong.

No. Vamp always had them Nanomachines son. It just wasn't explained right away because MGS 2 was the chapter that introduced what would become the Metal Gear Solid universe. Just how batsh!t insane it can get.

And Big Boss's story for one isn't even finished because the Phantom Pain is going to be the chapter where we get to see his transition to complete villain. Also like Snake, Big Boss is a tragic character. Hell, he dies basically feeling like everything he's done was for nothing. In Arlington Cemetary no less.

They didn't break anything. You just don't get it.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

IT doesn't necessary need to be coupled with complete knowledge about character. Character isn't something one-dimensional as what we see on out monitors. Of course in books it's another case. But in films and video games, you can't really gave up what they think. so it's all about impression they left

Uh...giving characters pathetic qualities is what makes them more than one-dimensional. Characterization is dynamic and is very necessary for making a character worth caring about.

And impressions can be extremely shallow and superficial, which makes one-dimensional characters that people tend not to give two sh!ts about, especially the more they think about subject.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Lemme elaborate a bit - giving a character pathetic qualities is a step to making a dynamic and multi-dimensional character. Oftentimes, though, people give someone a few shallow qualities and expect them to instantly be multi-dimensional and pathetic - this is what we call lazy, and most of the audience is still left without caring.

 

[Innsmouth]

Uh...giving characters pathetic qualities is what makes them more than one-dimensional. Characterization is dynamic and is very necessary for making a character worth caring about.

And impressions can be extremely shallow and superficial, which makes one-dimensional characters that people tend not to give two sh!ts about, especially the more they think about subject.

Well, you just love to give other people direction how people must and mustn't feel about characters. That actually collides with fact that "one-dimensional" characters as Sephiroth are more popular that "well-written" modern characters. So i guess, you still can't decide how world feels about characters. That's why Nelo is liked. Otherwise he would have been perceived as most of DMC2 bosses.

 

[Innsmouth]

No. Vamp always had them Nanomachines son. It just wasn't explained right away because MGS 2 was the chapter that introduced what would become the Metal Gear Solid universe. Just how batsh!t insane it can get.

And Big Boss's story for one isn't even finished because the Phantom Pain is going to be the chapter where we get to see his transition to complete villain. Also like Snake, Big Boss is a tragic character. Hell, he dies basically feeling like everything he's done was for nothing. In Arlington Cemetary no less.

They didn't break anything. You just don't get it.

I get it. Problem is that they reverse roles of Solid and big boss, making Solid effectively tool of patriots, and pretty much villain. Well it's just you have to admit, that MG1 and 2 weren't created with MGS in mind. So it collides with sympathetic character of Big Boss

 

[Devils Never Cry]

Is this still going on?

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Well, you just love to give other people direction how people must and mustn't feel about characters. That actually collides with fact that "one-dimensional" characters as Sephiroth are more popular that "well-written" modern characters. So i guess, you still can't decide how world feels about characters. That's why Nelo is liked. Otherwise he would have been perceived as most of DMC2 bosses.

Again you argue about feelings when that's not what I'm talking about. I'm not dictating how people are supposed to feel, I'm talking about the reasons WHY things are written a certain way, because if they aren't, entertainment value can drop horribly!

"People write X way, so readers don't Y."

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Is this still going on?

Sadly...yes...

 

[Innsmouth]

But that's not an inconsistency, which is what we were talking about. Random episodes fill in blanks or add new information, but they didn't create inconsistencies that contradict what is already there.

It's inconsistent something that MUST have been at least mentioned beforehand because of it's global meaning. It's just they're not trying to add up stories. they just throwing pieces and bits, without really caring about it.

His abilities were perceived as mystical in MGS2 because we were given no other information that justified their existence beyond mysticism. Not until MGS4 when it succinctly explained how the stuff worked.

His abilities were considered mystical, because they were mystical in MGS2. Same hypnosis can't be explained with nanomachines.

He didn't lose it, he stopped using it; because he only ever fought Raiden in MGS4, who was a man who defeated him previously. Raiden wasn't going to fall for his tricks again, so why would he bother using them.

Its really unconvincing and doesn't explains why he didn't used them, except for your once again assumption.

What the f#ck are you on about now...? Can you just stay on topic please, for once in your life?

They didn't throw anything out the window! They changed the audience's perception of how that sh!t worked, that's it.

They basically cut out any unexplainable stuff, throwed inside lazy explanation and stopped at that.

AND NEED I REMIND YOU THAT NONE OF THIS SH!T IS INCONSISTENCIES?! Jesus H Tapdancing Christ on Eucharist cracker, you are just not listening.

You can kick and scream, it won't change fact that they are.

 

[Chancey289]

Well,it's not me who forcing opinion. Using divine commedy as a source and using it's symbolical parallels is actually pretty decent idea and writing. Guess you just can'T explain how some characters lacking characterization outgrow some characters that attempted to be characterized as complex characters.

As much as I love the hack n slashy fun of Devil May Cry, it's always had sh!t characters and writing. Sure it takes inspiration from the Divine Comedy as basis for its own stuff but, that doesn't change the fact it's still bad.

DMC just amounts to generic anime stereotypes and trite tropes. I mean, there's a bunch of stories out there that take inspiration from other works but if it's bad then it's bad. You don't get any special credit especially when just about EVERYTHING takes inspiration from something nowadays. Try to find something completely and utterly original. Bet you you can't.

 

[Innsmouth]

Again you argue about feelings when that's not what I'm talking about. I'm not dictating how people are supposed to feel, I'm talking about the reasons WHY things are written a certain way, because if they aren't, entertainment value can drop horribly!

"People write X way, so readers don't Y."

You just can't admit, that emphasis isn't bent on characterization. Characterization is only part of character. There are much more to them that only their backstory. But wether you admit it or not, you can't change it. If the your opinion was true DMC1 was pretty much what DMC2 or games like Chaos Legion were. IT would have gone unremarkable and quickly forgotten. So apparently in the end people did care "about pathetic qualities" more than you think they did.

 

[Innsmouth]

As much as I love the hack n slashy fun of Devil May Cry, it's always had sh!t characters and writing. Sure it takes inspiration from the Divine Comedy as basis for its own stuff but, that doesn't change the fact it's still bad.

DMC just amounts to generic anime stereotypes and trite tropes. I mean, there's a bunch of stories out there that take inspiration from other works but if it's bad then it's bad. You don't get any special credit especially when just about EVERYTHING takes inspiration from something nowadays. Try to find something completely and utterly original. Bet you you can't.

Well difference is that it reworked it references into something of their own, otherwise franchise was dead by now, since there was many, many more separate games that never become franchises because of how unremarkable they were.

 

[Chancey289]

I get it. Problem is that they reverse roles of Solid and big boss, making Solid effectively tool of patriots, and pretty much villain. Well it's just you have to admit, that MG1 and 2 weren't created with MGS in mind. So it collides with sympathetic character of Big Boss

Perspective counts for a lot and you still don't f#cking get it. It's not trying to convince you that Big Boss is actually some good guy. He's a guy that did what HE thought he had to do. He loses so much. Have you played MGS 3? Peacewalker? Do you see everything he was doing? Hell, the ending of Ground Zeroes is just another knife in the chest because losing Mother Base affected him on a very personal level. He lost not only his little nation but his brotherhood.

The game's not trying to justify his actions but merely trying to portray for the audience his point of view. The whole, villains aren't born, they're made.

 

[Chancey289]

Well difference is that it reworked it references into something of their own, otherwise franchise was dead by now, since there was many, many more separate games that never become franchises because of how unremarkable they were.

The difference is that it became a hack n slash franchise like no other. If DMC didn't have the genre definining gameplay it had, it would just be another game that would have faded away a long time ago. There's nothing special about its story or plotlines. DMC 3 does the whole sibling rivalry thing which has been done SO Many times and hell, it's basically Inuyasha May Cry when you get right down to it.

Also, some characters couldn't get anymore generic if they tried like Vergil. Seriously, Vergil sucks and couldn't be any more of a lamer villain. At least DmC gave him more to work with.