Legit though, DMC4 sucked.

[Chancey289]

You're arguing your case by comparing a character who had ZERO screentime with people who had "barely 10 min of screentime". Vergil was a non-existent background character in DMC1 just like Eva was.

Your argument holds no weight.



They are not assumptions! The f#cking games told us that sh!t. Here's a timeline for you...

Eva and Vergil killed when Dante is young (told to us in DMC1)
Dante meets Vergil for some shenanigans a year before DMC3 (DMC3 told us this)
Dante and Vergil fight in Temen-Ni-Gru (f#cking DMC3)
Dante fights Nelo Angelo on Mallet Island and learns that he is Vergil (f#cking DMC1)

That is literally what we were told! The goddamn games themselves are the definitive proof.



So a gain you ignore that Eva and Vergil were counted together as a subject, and since Eva was killed, the implication is that Vergil was to.

Yes, there are plenty of ways "lost to evil" can be taken, but because we knew of Eva's fate (which she shared with Vergil), it means killed by demons. Just because we know Vergil was alive for DMC3 means nothing, because you can't bring knowledge of DMC3 into this argument.

I'm criticizing DMC1, and how it was when it came out.



What the f#ck are you even talking about? That's the whole goddamn point of this! The game forces you to think he's dead because everyone in the game says so! That's what the twist was supposed to f#cking BE, that "Surprise! Vergil wasn't dead but was Nelo Angelo this whole time! And you just killed him! Gratz!"

I'm not even arguing that. This whole time I've been arguing that Vergil wasn't developed at all for the twist to be dramatic. Pay attention...



No, because in DMC1 Trish says "You're the man who lost a mother and a brother to evil twenty years ago". Eva and Vergil were lost in the same incident. In DMC3, Vergil wasn't defeated by Mundus until...what? A year or so before DMC1? Those don't sync up.



Except for the aforementioned desync in events above



It's just as tedious as you trying to force a reinterpretation into the discussion where it doesn't fit. Stop throwing DMC3 into this.



Uh...no. It was always a huge talking point within the DMC communities that the franchise's canon was jiggered because of all the different writers' hands the series passed through. This was before DmC was ever even a thing. Hell, if people weren't talking about gameplay mechanics or new tricks, it was invariably discussion on "wait, was this novel canon? It explains this" and all that.

------------------------------------

Here, let's get the criticism of mine straight, for future generations, shall we?

DMC1 did a p!ss-poor job of making the audience empathize with the tragic twist of Nelo Angelo being Vergil. We were explicitly told throughout the game that Vergil supposedly died along with Eva twenty years ago, but ta-da~ he's been alive this whole time as Nelo Angelo, whom Dante invariably kills and feels remorse. It's extremely difficult for an audience to empathize with Vergil/Nelo Angelo, and by proxy even Dante himself, because Vergil had no character development, or more succinctly no character at all with which to empathize with. He wasn't some hero tragically turned to the dark side, he wasn't some character pushed to his limits until he broke, he wasn't anything. He was simply a name.

DMC3, however, made the Nelo Angelo twist a bit more dramatic because Vergil is an actual character, but in doing so also still ruined some of the overarching narrative, because the events and information from DMC3 didn't jive with what was told in DMC1 where Vergil was killed at a young age along with Eva, something corroborated by Dante throughout DMC1, and perpetuated by all of the characters - even the ones who know that Vergil is still alive.

Put simply, in Dante's eyes, he knew both Vergil and Eva had been killed, and believed so until Nelo Angelo's identity was revealed. Then, in DMC3, we see that Dante has known Vergil was alive for several years before DMC1 with all of their past run-ins, which directly contradicts Dante's own belief of Vergil's death in the first game.

The lack of foresight in the franchise has left us with a hodgepodge of canon with a lot of questionable content. Especially since Kamiya hates making sequels, so he never made DMC1 with any broader narrative in mind.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

It only works if you say "BAM!"

 

[TWOxACROSS]

I'm not kidding; I've been killing myself laughing; every post, Two...every post you've made has been that much more exasperated.

He did enough to make so many people like him

He's a cool looking character, obviously, but there was nothing to him prior to DMC3 that made him empathetic.

Well that what you have being doing since your first post on this thread...

No, I really wasn't >.< With the plot that DMC1 had, they did little to make the Nelo Angelo twist dramatic.

What you quoted was me talking about how we couldn't complain about the inconsistencies of the franchise until it was actually a franchise. The addition of more games borked the canon. In that instance I was talking about the borking. The borking, however, is completely beside the point of there being no dramatic tension to the Nelo Angelo twist.

 

[Demi-fiend]

Dante Does Dallas.

The crossover you've all been waiting for.

He's already dressed for the part, anyway.

"What? People dress like this in California all the time."

Magic Mustang.

 

[Rebel Dynasty]

He's already dressed for the part, anyway.

"What? People dress like this in California all the time."

:laugh:

Magic Mustang.

What...what is this? I don't even..... Magic Mustang?! XD

 

[Demi-fiend]

What...what is this? I don't even..... Magic Mustang?! XD

I'll send you the vid over pm 'cause it's... nsfw.

In the meantime though...

 

[Rebel Dynasty]

No....no....no....

Make it stop....

Pleeeeease.....make the mental pictures go away. XD

 

[Innsmouth]

He's a cool looking character, obviously, but there was nothing to him prior to DMC3 that made him empathetic.

Yes, it was. You just refuse to acknowledge it...which actually doesn't change anything

What you quoted was me talking about how we couldn't complain about the inconsistencies of the franchise until it was actually a franchise. The addition of more games borked the canon. In that instance I was talking about the borking. The borking, however, is completely beside the point of there being no dramatic tension to the Nelo Angelo twist.

And now name at least one franchise with more than 2 games that doesn't have at least one contradiction in story? You make it sound like it completely destroyed canon.....which is actually not true and has no reason...unless you want to bash it of course, for whatever purpose you have in your mind.

 

[DarkSlayerZero]

You make it sound like it completely destroyed canon.....which is actually not true.

It did,

1) Vergil was supposed to be brainwashed & evil

2) Rebellion & Yamato never existed, Force Edge was Dante's sword handed sown from Sparda.

3) Younger Dante didn't act like a frat boy.

 

[Innsmouth]

It did,

1) Vergil was supposed to be brainwashed & evil

2) Rebellion & Yamato never existed, Force Edge was Dante's sword handed sown from Sparda.

3) Younger Dante didn't act like a frat boy.

1) He become one after DMC3
2)that may be...and may be not. Fact that after defeating NElo Dante gets Sparda's power fits into whole medallion/sword story
3) how do you know

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Yes, it was. You just refuse to acknowledge it...which actually doesn't change anything

Here's the thing - you refuse to acknowledge simple, common sense things, while you're saying I refuse to acknowledge something wholly subjective.

And now name at least one franchise with more than 2 games that doesn't have at least one contradiction in story?

Max Payne. Kingdom Hearts. Megada-Megada-Mega Man? I wanna say Metal Gear as well, considering MGS4 tied up every loose end, but...

You make it sound like it completely destroyed canon.....which is actually not true and has no reason...unless you want to bash it of course, for whatever purpose you have in your mind.

I'm not saying it destroys the canon at all - it just jiggers it, as plot inconsistencies tend to do, being inconsistencies and all. I'm not "bashing" it at all either, you don't seem to realize that I love the DMC franchise, nor do you seem to understand that it's entirely possible for people to criticize the shortcomings of something, especially things they love.

I say that DMC has a jiggered canon and has mostly sub-par stories, but who gives a sh!t? It's a game that lets me juggle enemies in the air with bullets, and I'm always down for that.

It did,

1) Vergil was supposed to be brainwashed & evil

2) Rebellion & Yamato never existed, Force Edge was Dante's sword handed sown from Sparda.

3) Younger Dante didn't act like a frat boy.

Those are mostly just retcons, which is just filling in blanks with sometimes contrary information. Oh, and the Yamato did exist in DMC1, it was the sword the Sparda skin had, along with the pistols Luce & Ombra

The point when caused a contradiction was the "Dante believes Vergil to have died twenty years ago with Eva in DMC1" that contradicts the knowledge learned in DMC3 that "Vergil has been alive and well for almost four years prior to DMC3"

Oh well.

 

[Innsmouth]

Here's the thing - you refuse to acknowledge simple, common sense things, while you're saying I refuse to acknowledge something wholly subjective.

Well. that's because you trying to push your subjective opinion as the only existing truth in this world

Max Payne. Kingdom Hearts. Megada-Megada-Mega Man? I wanna say Metal Gear as well, considering MGS4 tied up every loose end, but...

Max Payne, like the franchise, where many people refuse to aknowledge that MP3 features same character, because of how different he is? Kingdom Hearts, where story didn't made any sense from the beginning and it only gets worse? Megaman where Zero was killed X amount of times only to made miraclous return again and again? and finally...MGS? Seriously MGS4 trashed canon harder than that one plot hole of DMC3...

I'm not saying it destroys the canon at all - it just jiggers it, as plot inconsistencies tend to do, being inconsistencies and all. I'm not "bashing" it at all either, you don't seem to realize that I love the DMC franchise, nor do you seem to understand that it's entirely possible for people to criticize the shortcomings of something, especially things they love.

I say that DMC has a jiggered canon and has mostly sub-par stories, but who gives a sh!t? It's a game that lets me juggle enemies in the air with bullets, and I'm always down for that.

Like i said, DMC3 has much more serious short comings, that chronological inconsistence.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Well. that's because you trying to push your subjective opinion as the only existing truth in this world

I did not learn "subjective opinions" about writing in school.

Max Payne, like the franchise, where many people refuse to aknowledge that MP3 features same character, because of how different he is?

Fans not willing to accept a change in tone does not mean the series has plotholes or inconsistencies, that's fans being...well...fans, sadly.

Kingdom Hearts, where story didn't made any sense from the beginning and it only gets worse?

A convoluted plot does not mean the series is inconsistent, it just means it's hard to follow. Being one who follows the plot, I can tell you there are no inconsistencies.

Megaman where Zero was killed X amount of times only to made miraclous return again and again?

Robots and downloadable consciousnesses are wonderful inventions~ Sure Zero dies a whole lot, but those aren't plotholes. They've explained every resurrection.

and finally...MGS? Seriously MGS4 trashed canon harder than that one plot hole of DMC3...

Trashed by connecting everything to everything else? Yes. Caused inconsistencies in the plot? Nope.

You asked for some series with three or more games that have no inconsistencies, I tossed a few out. The opinion of how the franchises became shaped by subsequent installments is beside the point; they all had consistent stories with no plotholes.

Like i said, DMC3 has much more serious short comings, that chronological inconsistence.

And if those shortcomings were the topic of discussion, then we'd discuss them. Alas, they are not, so we are not, so I won't.

 

[Rebel Dynasty]

Seriously though, this is just going in circles. ^^; Two isn't trying to force his opinion as fact; you're taking what he's said out of context. He's presented his opinions, yes, but he has also presented facts about the storyline. It can't be called "love", if you don't acknowledge the flaws of the things you claim to love....and that's the stance he's presented to you.

I love the franchise to death, as do most of the fans (after all, why else would we be here?) but that doesn't mean it's without faults.

 

[Innsmouth]

I did not learn "subjective opinions" about writing in school.

It is, if they based on bunch of straws

Fans not willing to accept a change in tone does not mean the series has plotholes or inconsistencies, that's fans being...well...fans, sadly.

Well than you should accept original Dante is consistent character, otherwise you fall into same category.

A convoluted plot does not mean the series is inconsistent, it just means it's hard to follow. Being one who follows the plot, I can tell you there are no inconsistencies.

Seriously...KH has hard to follow plot? IT's just has plot that doesn't really makes sense and it jumps back and forth depending on creator's guts. Good example is Lost, that just was jumping back and forth with only to end with a joke.

Robots and downloadable consciousnesses are wonderful inventions~ Sure Zero dies a whole lot, but those aren't plotholes. They've explained every resurrection.

Those are really nothing but asspools, to return popular characters

Trashed by connecting everything to everything else? Yes. Caused inconsistencies in the plot? Nope.

....If you thinkg MGS4 tied everything ...than seriously...you have no slightest clue about writing. Alone story with Vamp was giant joke.

You asked for some series with three or more games that have no inconsistencies, I tossed a few out. The opinion of how the franchises became shaped by subsequent installments is beside the point; they all had consistent stories with no plotholes..

oh, look now you talk about opinions on writing....double standards much? Sadly, all those franchises has plot holes. Wether you like it or not.

And if those shortcomings were the topic of discussion, then we'd discuss them. Alas, they are not, so we are not, so I won't.

Sure....if you don't has anything to add

 

[Innsmouth]

I love the franchise to death, as do most of the fans (after all, why else would we be here?) but that doesn't mean it's without faults.

Like i said, before, there are some much more serious shortcomings than writing Sadly people prefer to ignore them and grasp at straws

 

[Rebel Dynasty]

Like i said, before, there are some much more serious shortcomings than writing Sadly people prefer to ignore them and grasp at straws

Ah, but those flaws weren't part of the discussion. Not straw-grasping here; I acknowledge that writing isn't the only shortcoming of the franchise...it just happens to be the most glaringly obvious one to most people.

That being said...wow...this thread got derailed a long time ago....not that it matters, because "DMC4 sucking" is merely an opinion, and nothing more, so...

Take my advice, friend; learn when to cut your losses-otherwise, all you're doing is going around in circles on the same debate, over and over again.

In that, no one wins; everyone just gets irritated...like having sand down your underpants; and no one likes that.

 

[Innsmouth]

Ah, but that's not the topic of discussion. No straw-grasping here; I acknowledge that writing isn't the only shortcoming of the franchise...it just happens to be the most glaringly obvious one.

Wow...this thread got derailed a long time ago....not that it matters, because "DMC4 sucking" is merely an opinion, and nothing more, so...

Take my advice, friend; learn when to cut your losses-otherwise, all you're doing is going around in circles on the same debate, over and over again.

In that, no one wins; everyone just gets irritated...like having sand down your underpants; and no one likes that.

Losses? what losses It's not me who refuse to acknowledge that subjective opinion is subjective opinion

 

[Rebel Dynasty]

In all fairness, I don't think TwoxAcross is refusing to, either. I think you've simply misunderstood what he's been driving at this whole time.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

It is, if they based on bunch of straws

Don't bash writing education, not when you type like that.

Well than you should accept original Dante is consistent character, otherwise you fall into same category.

When was my opinion of Dante as a consistent character ever a topic of this discussion.

Seriously...KH has hard to follow plot? IT's just has plot that doesn't really makes sense and it jumps back and forth depending on creator's guts.

And yet...no inconsistencies.

Those are really nothing but asspools, to return popular characters

Oh totally, they are. Inafune wanted Zero dead when he sacrificed himself the second time, but Capcom head honchos wouldn't let him. However, while ass-pulls they totally are, inconsistencies they are not.

....If you thinkg MGS4 tied everything ...than seriously...you have no slightest clue about writing. Alone story with Vamp was giant joke.

I'm starting to wonder if you even know what consistency means, man.

oh, look now you talk about opinions on writing....double standards much? Sadly, all those franchises has plot holes. Wether you like it or not.

Dude, just...stop. Inconsistencies or the lack thereof are a matter of facts, they rely on missing or contradictory information, not a persons' feelings. If a story tells its audience that a character lost his arm in a war, and then later says that he lost his arm in a car accident - that's an inconsistency. Those two facts are - say it with me - inconsistent~

And hey, if you really wanna get into it, I can probably answer any question of inconsistency you have about those three franchises. But, not here, this isn't the topic for that.

Sure....if you don't has anything to add

Yes, I have nothing to add to a discussion we are not having. You wanna go make a thread about DMC3's shortcomings, you go right ahead there, champ.