Legit though, DMC4 sucked.

[Enigma]

Alright, maybe I'm missing the context here, but TWOxACROSS's stance of ''there was nothing to him prior to DMC3 that made him empathetic'' is in fact an opinion, as Innsmouth or others may disagree. So Innsmouth has a point there.

Likewise, Innsmouth's stance is wrong as well. Or rather, there is no wrong or right here, only opinion. So in that sense, Two is right. But then, Two apparently ignores this by acting like his opinion is fact. Soo... that's just weird. But then, my opinion is fact to me just like Two's opinion is fact to him. So I'd go with TWOxACROSS on this one.
So this argument is useless.

...If that makes any sense XD

 

[Rebel Dynasty]

^ Lol, pretty much sums up the last...3, 4 pages now? I wouldn't say it was all in regard to opinion, but there certainly was a fair bit of miscommunication going on.

That, and I get the feeling someone was enjoying riling someone else up a little too much... ^^;

 

[Innsmouth]

Don't bash writing education, not when you type like that.

What else to do if you don't have any

And yet...no inconsistencies.

You can't make inconsistent plot, if plot doesn't makes sense.

Oh totally, they are. Inafune wanted Zero dead when he sacrificed himself the second time, but Capcom head honchos wouldn't let him. However, while ass-pulls they totally are, inconsistencies they are not.

They are not plot holes, but those incocistences. They basically make whole plot irrelevant.

I'm starting to wonder if you even know what consistency means, man.

Yeah so, when somebody has magic abilities and displays them, and in sequel it was completely ignored and replaced with lol nanomachines? Seriously, I don't think that you should even start on writing education if you think MGS consistent.

Dude, just...stop. Inconsistencies or the lack thereof are a matter of facts, they rely on missing or contradictory information, not a persons' feelings. If a story tells its audience that a character lost his arm in a war, and then later says that he lost his arm in a car accident - that's an inconsistency. Those two facts are - say it with me - inconsistent~

Well considering you ignores inconsistence from one game and bashing the other...well. i can only conclude you just spins facts as you see suitable for you

Yes, I have nothing to add to a discussion we are not having. You wanna go make a thread about DMC3's shortcomings, you go right ahead there, champ.

I prefer just enjoy games that overall enjoyable not to complain about small shortcomings. In the end game is sum of it parts.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Alright, maybe I'm missing the context here, but TWOxACROSS's stance of ''there was nothing to him prior to DMC3 that made him empathetic'' is in fact an opinion, as Innsmouth or others may disagree. So Innsmouth has a point there.

Likewise, Innsmouth's stance is wrong as well. Or rather, there is no wrong or right here, only opinion. So in that sense, Two is right. But then, Two apparently ignores this by acting like his opinion is fact. Soo... that's just weird. But then, my opinion is fact to me just like Two's opinion is fact to him. So I'd go with TWOxACROSS on this one.
So this argument is useless.

...If that makes any sense XD

A character failing to be empathetic because they lack characterization to empathize with isn't an opinion. It's a well-known fact, and it's why people strive to give the characters they create personality or certain qualities, so that we as an audience can empathize with them. It's not my opinion, that's a thing people literally do to make a story more engaging and worthwhile.

To that extent however, it is entirely possible to empathize with a situation on a very base human level. Take Nelo Angelo's death/identity reveal scene. We can easily empathize with the circumstance itself, that Dante just found out his brother was alive and then he killed him. However, because Vergil was nothing more than a name with no personality with which to empathize with (prior to DMC3's introduction of the slick-haired cool cat that we know today), it's difficult to empathize with the characters themselves and feel how they feel on a deeper level.

It's the difference between empathizing with a child's death reported on television and grieving over the death of your own child. The former is empathizing with the situation itself, while the latter is empathizing with the people involved. Characterization is huge in making the audience care, and if a character has no character at all, it's extremely difficult to make the audience care.

I suddenly think of Saving Private Ryan - we see plenty of soldiers get killed, and wail in pain as they die, but we don't empathize with them as characters, because they're just soldiers. However, we do empathize with the soldiers who die along the way in Tom Hank's company, because we got to know them; they are more than just soldiers.

 

[Innsmouth]

^ Lol, pretty much sums up the last...3, 4 pages now? I wouldn't say it was all in regard to opinion, but there certainly was a fair bit of miscommunication going on.

That, and I get the feeling someone was enjoying riling someone else up a little too much... ^^;

I can perfectly be satisfied with agreement that subjective opinion is subjective and we all can agree to disagree.

 

[Innsmouth]

A character failing to be empathetic because they lack characterization to empathize with isn't an opinion. It's a well-known fact, and it's why people strive to give the characters they create personality or certain qualities, so that we as an audience can empathize with them. It's not my opinion, that's a thing people literally do to make a story more engaging and worthwhile.

To that extent however, it is entirely possible to empathize with a situation on a very base human level. Take Nelo Angelo's death/identity reveal scene. We can easily empathize with the circumstance itself, that Dante just found out his brother was alive and then he killed him. However, because Vergil was nothing more than a name with no personality with which to empathize with (prior to DMC3's introduction of the slick-haired cool cat that we know today), it's difficult to empathize with the characters themselves and feel how they feel on a deeper level.

It's the difference between empathizing with a child's death reported on television and grieving over the death of your own child. The former is empathizing with the situation itself, while the latter is empathizing with the people involved. Characterization is huge in making the audience care, and if a character has no character at all, it's extremely difficult to make the audience care.

I suddenly think of Saving Private Ryan - we see plenty of soldiers get killed, and wail in pain as they die, but we don't empathize with them as characters, because they're just soldiers. However, we do empathize with the soldiers who die along the way in Tom Hank's company, because we got to know them; they are more than just soldiers.

There are those parameters: charm and charisma that can influence empathy. Ignoring Nelo's charisma and his obvious connection to Dante, you systematically ignore his qualities. Characterization may as summon empathy, or completely kill it off. So in the end your lack of empathy on the matter doesn't apply to the whole world around you.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

What else to do if you don't have any

So, are you admitting you have no formal writing education? That explains everything.

You can't make inconsistent plot, if plot doesn't makes sense.

The plot makes perfect sense, it's just hard to follow and requires a lot of time devoted to understanding it. Many who complain about the plot not making sense are simply having a hard time following it, because it's convoluted, eg, there's a lot of sh!t to remember.

They are not plot holes, but those incocistences. They basically make whole plot irrelevant.

Irrelevance does not equal inconsistency.

Yeah so, when somebody has magic abilities and displays them, and in sequel it was completely ignored and replaced with lol nanomachines? Seriously, I don't think that you should even start on writing education if you think MGS consistent.

Dude, they went to great lengths to explain everything in Metal Gear. To that degree, Vamp's abilities in MGS2 were displayed as magical, but their execution was then explained in MGS4 as "lol nanomachines". His ability to regenerate seemed mystical in MGS2 because the characters had no explanations to give at the time. However, then it was explained in MGS4 as nanomachines. These are not inconsistencies, it's the introduction of new information that changes perception.

Well considering you ignores inconsistence from one game and bashing the other...well. i can only conclude you just spins facts as you see suitable for you

You have no f#cking clue what consistency even means, do you? It's okay, you can admit it, you're among friends. It's safe here.

I prefer just enjoy games that overall enjoyable not to complain about small shortcomings. In the end game is sum of it parts.

Sure, and some people enjoy discourse about the finer details regarding the things they like, which sometimes includes shortcomings; it's just another source of enjoyment.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

There are those parameters: charm and charisma that can influence empathy. Ignoring Nelo's charisma and his obvious connection to Dante, you systematically ignore his qualities. Characterization may as summon empathy, or completely kill it off. So in the end your lack of empathy on the matter doesn't apply to the whole world around you.

Sure, charm and charisma can influence characterization and empathy, but they are not always enough; in truth they almost never are. At least not to make characters with a lasting impression.

Once again though, I'm not ignoring Nelo's charisma or Dante's connection because it was never what I was talking about - I'm saying that Vergil wasn't enough of a character at the time in order to empathize with what happened to him. Quit bringing up other sh!t that I'm not even talking about! For f#ck's sake dude, you're mentioning crap that no one is arguing.

 

[Innsmouth]

So, are you admitting you have no formal writing education? That explains everything.

Not in english language, no

The plot makes perfect sense, it's just hard to follow and requires a lot of time devoted to understanding it. Many who complain about the plot not making sense are simply having a hard time following it, because it's convoluted, eg, there's a lot of sh!t to remember.

It's not harder to follow. It's just what it is. It's writing is a mess. In your own words, doesn't makes game a trash

Dude, they went to great lengths to explain everything in Metal Gear. To that degree, Vamp's abilities in MGS2 were displayed as magical, but their execution was then explained in MGS4 as "lol nanomachines". His ability to regenerate seemed mystical in MGS2 because the characters had no explanations to give at the time. However, then it was explained in MGS4 as nanomachines. These are not inconsistencies, it's the introduction of new information that changes perception..

Nope. They basically removed few of his abilities and pretended they never happened, since it actually collided with explanation. THAT is factual inconsistence

You have no f#cking clue what consistency even means, do you? It's okay, you can admit it, you're among friends. It's safe here.

eh, you just twist it to your means, that's pretty much it. So why don't you relax, and we agree on difference in subjective views of the same matter.

Sure, and some people enjoy discourse about the finer details regarding the things they like, which sometimes includes shortcomings; it's just another source of enjoyment.

I think it's enough to just relax and enjoy game. So if bashing makes you enjoy it ...hmm k.

 

[Innsmouth]

Sure, charm and charisma can influence characterization and empathy, but they are not always enough; in truth they almost never are. At least not to make characters with a lasting impression.

Once again though, I'm not ignoring Nelo's charisma or Dante's connection because it was never what I was talking about - I'm saying that Vergil wasn't enough of a character at the time in order to empathize with what happened to him. Quit bringing up other sh!t that I'm not even talking about! For f#ck's sake dude, you're mentioning crap that no one is arguing.

Ok, let's try to clear it. Nelo is vergil. He was enigmatic, mysterious and charismatic. You knew there was connection so it makes impact from his death even greater If it didn't impacted you it doesn't means it didn't impacted anyone. At least i think that scene of his death was pretty emotional and sad.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

It's not harder to follow. It's just what it is. It's writing is a mess. In your own words, doesn't makes game a trash

But there are no inconsistencies, as per the entire point of mentioning it. The quality of the writing is a moot point, obviously, but the facts of the story are all consistent.

Nope. They basically removed few of his abilities and pretended they never happened, since it actually collided with explanation. THAT is factual inconsistence

They didn't remove any of his abilities, nor pretend they never happened. Obviously he can't run on water if there is no water around, and he doesn't bind anyone's shadow either because...he just didn't. Them not displaying an ability he has used previously does not mean they removed it, he just didn't use it. They explained his running on walls and water as Van Der Waals technology in his shoes (which the FROGs also use in MGS4), his regeneration is amplified healing from nanomachines. Then, some of it really was just mysticism, which Metal Gear loves to use.

eh, you just twist it to your means, that's pretty much it. So why don't you relax, and we agree on difference in subjective views of the same matter.

Sorry, it's difficult for me to let people run around with incorrect information in their head. Call it a sickness. You're either ignoring the definition of consistency when it's inconvenient to what you're trying to say, or you really just don't know. I'd guess the former, since you've been trying to argue factual inconsistencies in Metal Gear above.

I think it's enough to just relax and enjoy game. So if bashing makes you enjoy it ...hmm k.

Whatever blows your skirt up.

Ok, let's try to clear it. Nelo is vergil. He was enigmatic, mysterious and charismatic. You knew there was connection so it makes impact from his death even greater If it didn't impacted you it doesn't means it didn't impacted anyone. At least i think that scene of his death was pretty emotional and sad.

No, Nelo is Nelo. Vergil is Vergil. Dante cries over Vergil's fate of becoming something else and being forced to kill him. He's not mourning Nelo Angelo, because all that guy did was try and kill him. He's mourning that his brother Vergil's fate was worse than he had thought, being turned into a mindless soldier for Mundus, which Dante had to kill in order to progress.

The resolve Dante takes from that scene is born from him hating Mundus for what he did to Vergil.

And once again, the small amount of character they gave Nelo Angelo doesn't make him pathetic in any grand way that the audience can care about. Whatever the audience feels is very shallow.

You may be confusing empathy for the situation as empathy for the character. Or, you're still thinking of a post-DMC3 Vergil that can be empathized with, whereas my entire point was about DMC1 prior to DMC3's addition to the story.

 

[Chancey289]

finally...MGS? Seriously MGS4 trashed canon harder than that one plot hole of DMC3...
.

WHOA WHOA WHOA WHOA,

I'm stepping in since you brought up my silly baby Metal Gear. MGS 4 didn't mess up anything. MGS 4 answered A LOT of the ongoing questions throughout the franchise and was the conclusion to the story of Solid Snake and hell, basically all the characters involved.

Don't you try to argue Metal Gear with me boy. It's a series near and dear to my heart and I know my Metal Gear Solid. Don't test me m8. I swear on me mum.

 

[Innsmouth]

But there are no inconsistencies, as per the entire point of mentioning it. The quality of the writing is a moot point, obviously, but the facts of the story are all consistent.

Eh. you can't call story consistent, if it consists of random ideas, poorly or not bound to each other. For story to be consistent, it has to follow logical line, while in KH it doesn't exist.

They didn't remove any of his abilities, nor pretend they never happened. Obviously he can't run on water if there is no water around, and he doesn't bind anyone's shadow either because...he just didn't. Them not displaying an ability he has used previously does not mean they removed it, he just didn't use it. They explained his running on walls and water as Van Der Waals technology in his shoes (which the FROGs also use in MGS4), his regeneration is amplified healing from nanomachines. Then, some of it really was just mysticism, which Metal Gear loves to use..

he didn't used it, because it ruined their explanation about nanomachines. Just like he didn't drank blood etc. And running is one thing, but sitting on the water. Well it's something entirely differnet. This inconsistence is established fact in whole MGS community.

Sorry, it's difficult for me to let people run around with incorrect information in their head. Call it a sickness. You're either ignoring the definition of consistency when it's inconvenient to what you're trying to say, or you really just don't know. I'd guess the former, since you've been trying to argue factual inconsistencies in Metal Gear above.

Sorry, was playing MGS ever since Psx era. Calling it consistent is pretty ignorant.

And once again, the small amount of character they gave Nelo Angelo doesn't make him pathetic in any grand way that the audience can care about. Whatever the audience feels is very shallow.

You may be confusing empathy for the situation as empathy for the character. Or, you're still thinking of a post-DMC3 Vergil that can be empathized with, whereas my entire point was about DMC1 prior to DMC3's addition to the story.

Nope. only DMC1. Once again you can't decide what audience feels or what not. And no, i wasn't talking about situation only. IMO Nelo's demise was sad enough to made impact on watcher, especially for such small timeframe in which whole game unfolded

 

[Innsmouth]

WHOA WHOA WHOA WHOA,

I'm stepping in since you brought up my silly baby Metal Gear. MGS 4 didn't mess up anything. MGS 4 answered A LOT of the ongoing questions throughout the franchise and was the conclusion to the story of Solid Snake and hell, basically all the characters involved.

Don't you try to argue Metal Gear with me boy. It's a series near and dear to my heart and I know my Metal Gear Solid. Don't test me m8. I swear on me mum.

Can'T help. I was with MGS ever since Psx era. They broke Vamp. They broke Big boss story. They broke a lot of things. And there is pretty awesome article that all those plot holes were made with certain goal, since Kojima was really disappointed with his fanbase.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Eh. you can't call story consistent, if it consists of random ideas, poorly or not bound to each other. For story to be consistent, it has to follow logical line, while in KH it doesn't exist.

It does follow a logical line you nincompoop. Just because it goes all over the place doesn't mean it's inconsistent. Seriously, you know what consistency is, and every plotpoint and fact in the series is consistent. Stop f#cking around.

he didn't used it, because it ruined their explanation about nanomachines. Just like he didn't drank blood etc. And running is one thing, but sitting on the water. Well it's something entirely differnet. This inconsistence is established fact in whole MGS community.

He did drink blood. They even explained why he drank blood - he developed a taste for it when he had to survive off the blood of his dead family when he was trapped in a bombed out church, with a cross sticking through his chest no less. Van der Waals technology is used to explain him sitting on the water for the same reason as him being able to run on the water. The FROGs who use the same technology are able to simply sit on walls and ceilings using it.

So...yeah...you apparently didn't pay enough attention, and neither did the "MGS community" you're claiming supports what you say.

Even Vamp's mystical Kagenui (shadow-binding) from MGS2 was suggested by Otacon to be a form of hypnotic suggestion - in MGS2.

Calling it consistent is pretty ignorant.

Well, if that isn't the pot calling the kettle a racial slur.

Nope. only DMC1. Once again you can't decide what audience feels or what not. And no, i wasn't talking about situation only. IMO Nelo's demise was sad enough to made impact on watcher, especially for such small timeframe in which whole game unfolded

Go ahead and double down, man. You're opinion of how you felt about it doesn't change the fact that making drama for undeveloped characters doesn't make for good pathetic storytelling. It's literally the reason why characterization exists and writers strive for it.

 

[Chancey289]

Can'T help. I was with MGS ever since Psx era. They broke Vamp. They broke Big boss story. They broke a lot of things. And there is pretty awesome article that all those plot holes were made with certain goal, since Kojima was really disappointed with his fanbase.

You aren't a bigger Metal Gear fan than me.

And what the hell are you talking about? What about Vamp and Big Boss is broken?

The most recent f#ck up wasn't done by Kojima but P* with their Metal Gear Rising game that totally just effed up Raiden's resolution at 4. He was retired at the end of 4 and was just gonna live out the rest of his days in peace with Rose and his family. Risings like F#ck that and has him not only continue his fighting but even go all crazy and sh!t again.

 

[Rebel Dynasty]

Go ahead and double down, man. You're opinion of how you felt about it doesn't change the fact that making drama for undeveloped characters doesn't make for good pathetic storytelling. It's literally the reason why characterization exists and writers strive for it.

^ This-Innsmouth, go ahead and ask any writer worth their salt, and they will agree with this. Writer's do strive to create dynamic characters; that is to say, they create characters with strengths and weaknesses (both psychologically and physically) as well as building on why the character says or does any of the things that they do; what motivates them, what cripples them, what makes them relatable on some level or another. Writer's strive to make you feel something about the characters, based on the trials said characters undertake; this isn't simply opinion-it is fact.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

He was retired at the end of 4 and was just gonna live out the rest of his days in peace with Rose and his family

To be fair, they do explain he's working for Maverick to support his family. It's just...he could have chosen so many better jobs than that >.< It f#cks Raiden's resolution, but of course, that's not an inconsistency. Even Snake said he was done when he moved to Alaska, and then got dragged back into the game

 

[Chancey289]

To be fair, they do explain he's working for Maverick to support his family. It's just...he could have chosen so many better jobs than that >.< It f#cks Raiden's resolution, but of course, that's not an inconsistency. Even Snake said he was done when he moved to Alaska, and then got dragged back into the game

Still, it does ruin everything Kojima had in mind when it came to Raiden and where he would end up. When Kojima was in charge of the game it was gonna be a bridge between MGS 2 and 4 clearly with Raiden's retirement in mind. I just don't see going f#cking crazy and doing this sh!t as anything logical he would do even if MGS is a series that als has very silly stuff.

Pulling out your whole stupid psychopath sh!t once more must be perfect for the wife and kids! You can just see it at the end of 4. He was at the point where he was done fighting. He was drained, tired, and as a person growing up doing NOTHING but fighting, it was time to stop. That was his resolution. The war was over.

I know I hate Raiden but damn, I've been with all these characters to still give a crap where it all goes.

 

[Innsmouth]

You aren't a bigger Metal Gear fan than me.

And what the hell are you talking about? What about Vamp and Big Boss is broken?

The most recent f#ck up wasn't done by Kojima but P* with their Metal Gear Rising game that totally just effed up Raiden's resolution at 4. He was retired at the end of 4 and was just gonna live out the rest of his days in peace with Rose and his family. Risings like F#ck that and has him not only continue his fighting but even go all crazy and sh!t again.

Vamp suddenly become nanomachine infused creature, and they cancelled his abilities. As for Big Boss. Well i know they did the best to explain how he wasn't really evil. They just went overboard, since brainwashing and mass murder is wrong.