Is Devil May Cry becoming for newbies?

[Lain]

Not all fans are playing DMC to play super high level like, just to have fun~ ^_^
As long as future games are fun to play I don't care about "dumbing down". If i feel a game is too easy, i just play it on a higher difficulty level.

 

[LordOfDarkness]

@DragonMaster2010: Your comment could come across as trying to start an argument, here. It might not of meant to of been seen like that, but it could have been so be careful please dude. Cheers :thumbsup:

But I won't derail this thread for another petty DMC vs DmC argument.

I appreciate that, thanks!

@Innsmouth: Dude, just drop it already bro, like for real, k?...lol ;-)

Just kiddin' =)

 

[Foxtrot94]

Dude, just drop it already bro, like for real, k?

I thought I'd never live long enough to see LordOfDarkness dudebroing. Even for joke.

 

[Innsmouth]

@Innsmouth: Dude, just drop it already bro, like for real, k?...lol ;-)

ok I will :blush:

 

[The Good Gentleman]

I thought I'd never live long enough to see LordOfDarkness dudebroing. Even for joke.

The devil within is beginning to awaken.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

@TWOxACROSS
Jump cancel was not a glitch. They intended it as an actual feature when they first put it in DMC3. Itsuno was asked that in a stream during E3 and he answered. He said that yeah it was an intentional mechanic but he was still surprised by how many cool stuff high level players have been able to achieve through it.

I thought he was speaking specifically of Enemy Step, not Jump Canceling itself. Granted you can Jump Cancel even without Enemy Step (maybe we should be calling it "Step Canceling," instead), but I thought even Gregaman talked about it. Apparently even doing Clay Pigeon was originally a glitch, which I thought was interesting to hear.

Obviously it wasn't a glitch in DMC4 either cause it's a buyable ability.

They embraced it by DMC4, but they still didn't do a whole lot to balance its appearance.

Other things like Distortion for example. That's no glitch either. In fact when you perform it, you can see a visual clue consisting of the red effect on screen changing and becoming brighter as a result. That's a pre-programmed FX recognized by the code when Distortion with the perfect timing is executed.

I don't believe for a second that something that can kill a boss in three seconds is intentional, for a game that is supposed to be about challenge. The effects just happen to mesh together well enough to make it seem like they were programmed, but no, that's not at all an intentional thing. You're gonna have to find some honest to God source on that.

Same with Just Frames. No glitch. It's an intentional mechanic. The visual clue there is even more evident. Try Dante's just framed lvl 3 ground pound or Vergil's just framed lvl 3 Straight at the end of Beowulf Combo 2.
Even Vergil's Judgment Cut in DMC4 use the same principle. On purpose.

Of course Just Frames aren't a glitch - I never said they were, those are a tried and true action game mechanic.

Inertia is not a glitch or unintentional either. When Nero shoots his CS3 in the air, the recoil of the shot moves him back (even on land a lil bit but it's most evident in the air). Is it physics? Yeah. Does that mean it's unintentional? Course not. Unless you're telling me they programmed a physics engine "unintentionally" when they made the game.
Lady's Ground Zero's last frames are another example of it, a shame she can't do it in the air too. Ground Zero is an unintentional move too? A glitch?

Guard Fly uses the same principle as Inertia combined with the fact that you can cancel anything with a Royalguard stance. Which is an inherent mechanic of that move, not a glitch or anything.

A game engine having built-in physics isn't a glitch, that's not what I'm saying. Giving things more realistic movement is cool, and the concept of inertia itself if just a product of the physics engine. However, stuff like Guard Flying, which is only possible because of inertia, is unintentional.

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Gotta say, it's rather amazing that people were bashing Ninja Theory with "lol, it's not a bug, it's a feature~" but don't seem to want to accept how much of what DMC has was (originally) glitches. However, this is totally not to say that these glitches are in any way bad, but please be aware of how they intrinsically break the game by unintentionally giving the player an upper hand.

 

[Foxtrot94]

I thought he was speaking specifically of Enemy Step, not Jump Canceling itself.

Pretty sure the guy who asked Itsuno specifically said "jump cancel".

I don't believe for a second that something that can kill a boss in three seconds is intentional

LOL Judgment Cut End, Lady's grenades and lvl 3 Kalina Ann missile, and DmC's Demon Dodge's damage buff say hello.

A game engine having built-in physics isn't a glitch, that's not what I'm saying. Giving things more realistic movement is cool, and the concept of inertia itself if just a product of the physics engine.

Yeah. Exactly. You wanna make me buy that when they made the animation for Nero's Charge Shot in the air and Dante's "aerial" Guard stance they didn't intend it to function like that? Please.
Remember that the only mocapped gameplay animations in DMC4 were the taunts, as Reuben Langdon himself said. All of the other ones were made manually. Therefore, everything you see when the character is moving in combat was designed and conciously animated that way.

However, this is totally not to say that these glitches are in any way bad, but please be aware of how they intrinsically break the game by unintentionally giving the player an upper hand.

I get where you're coming from, but the only actual game breaker to me is Distortion. Especially if applied to Real Impact, cause it's the easier to execute and anyone can perform it, takes little skill. The other techniques, if mastered (and I underline 'mastered'... they're not something any average player can do, so...), can make you untouchable, but they're there mostly for stylishness, not practicality. You know, stylish action. What Devil May Cry is all about.



But speaking of breaking the game... ok I get it, as LOD said, they probably wanted to focus on the fun factor mostly for DMC4SE's new characters, but... I'm still a bit worried. I mean, after seeing how they threw balance out the window in the SE, really is none of you guys worried not even a little bit for a hypothetical sequel?

 

[Frazz]

Pretty sure the guy who asked Itsuno specifically said "jump cancel".



LOL Judgment Cut End, Lady's grenades and lvl 3 Kalina Ann missile, and DmC's Demon Dodge's damage buff say hello.



Yeah. Exactly. You wanna make me buy that when they made the animation for Nero's Charge Shot in the air and Dante's "aerial" Guard stance they didn't intend it to function like that? Please.
Remember that the only mocapped gameplay animations in DMC4 were the taunts, as Reuben Langdon himself said. All of the other ones were made manually. Therefore, everything you see when the character is moving in combat was designed and conciously animated that way.



I get where you're coming from, but the only actual game breaker to me is Distortion. Especially if applied to Real Impact, cause it's the easier to execute and anyone can perform it, takes little skill. The other techniques, if mastered (and I underline 'mastered'... they're not something any average player can do, so...), can make you untouchable, but they're there mostly for stylishness, not practicality. You know, stylish action. What Devil May Cry is all about.



But speaking of breaking the game... ok I get it, as LOD said, they probably wanted to focus on the fun factor mostly for DMC4SE's new characters, but... I'm still a bit worried. I mean, after seeing how they threw balance out the window in the SE, really is none of you guys worried not even a little bit for a hypothetical sequel?

I'd rather have a sequel that is too easy than no sequel at all. I think the majority of fans would agree with me. We're invested in the overall story and characters and we want to play a fun game... The difficulty has never been a selling point of a DMC game. I don't play it for difficulty I play it to have fun and learn new tricks like JC etc. If difficulty matters so much to you then play Bloodborne and Dark Souls for difficulty but I guarantee that you don't love DMC because 'it's hard'. We all love it for the stylish gameplay and the characters not the level of difficulty.

 

[Foxtrot94]

@Frazz
I know but the problem arises when enemies become a joke. Don't exaggerate how I'm feeling. I'm not saying it shouldn't be super hard, but DmC and DMC4SE are too much (easy) imo.

 

[DragonMaster2010]

DmC and DMC4SE are too much (easy) imo.

And there lies the root of this thread.

 

[Foxtrot94]

And there lies the root of this thread.

Mind you, when I say "imo", I don't mean "for me personally" or "when it comes to my case" or stuff like that. I mean that it is my opinion they're too easy in general, for the majority of people. Cause balance is all over the place. Dunno how to properly explain what I mean with "imo" better than that. And frankly, looking at how Vergil and Lady destroy everything, would you actually says that it's not?

 

[DragonMaster2010]

Mind you, when I say "imo", I don't mean "for me personally" or "when it comes to my case" or stuff like that. I mean that it is my opinion they're too easy in general, for the majority of people. Cause balance is all over the place. Dunno how to properly explain what I mean with "imo" better than that. And frankly, looking at how Vergil and Lady destroy everything, would you actually says that it's not?

But it all seems to be based on opinions though. Like I said, some people aren't as familiar with the DMC series and its mechanics as most veterans or fans of the series are. I feel its still opinionated for that reason. Difficulty depends on the player not always the game itself.

 

[AgentRedgrave]

I totally agree that DmC was a LOT easier then most of the original games, as for "Is Devil May Cry becoming for newbies" I hope not
The original game was meant as a challenge for casual gamers, and personally as much as DMC3 made me cry when I was younger (I admit it, and it does NOT make me less of a man *crosses arms stubbornly*) it made beating the bosses, and completing missions feel more rewarding. So yeah, I do think it would be a bad thing.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Pretty sure the guy who asked Itsuno specifically said "jump cancel".

Doesn't quite mean that something wasn't lost in translation :x

LOL Judgment Cut End, Lady's grenades and lvl 3 Kalina Ann missile, and DmC's Demon Dodge's damage buff say hello.

Nothing has the level of destruction close to a Distorted Real Impact done on a Dante Must Die-level boss. Sure, maybe a Demon Dodge combo on a Human-level boss in DmC could take one out in seconds, but unless all those videos of people plowing through every boss in DMC4 using Distortion weren't done on the highest difficulty level possible...

Yeah. Exactly. You wanna make me buy that when they made the animation for Nero's Charge Shot in the air and Dante's "aerial" Guard stance they didn't intend it to function like that? Please.
Remember that the only mocapped gameplay animations in DMC4 were the taunts, as Reuben Langdon himself said. All of the other ones were made manually. Therefore, everything you see when the character is moving in combat was designed and conciously animated that way.

Dude, you're not quite getting what I'm saying. Yes, they made an animation for Nero being pushed back from the recoil of his charged shot, and yes, they made an aerial version of Dante's guarding animation. None of that means that inertia was intentionally created to allow people to fly over enemies while doing Rainstorm or zip all over the place while guarding in midair. All of those techniques require the uses of in-game physics, but they were not an intentional creation. In a game series that prides itself on slick-looking animations (like Nero's animation to the aerial charged shot recoil), do you really think they would create an intentional mechanic that looks as utterly jank-ass as Jump Canceling and Guard Flying?

I get where you're coming from, but the only actual game breaker to me is Distortion. Especially if applied to Real Impact, cause it's the easier to execute and anyone can perform it, takes little skill. The other techniques, if mastered (and I underline 'mastered'... they're not something any average player can do, so...), can make you untouchable, but they're there mostly for stylishness, not practicality. You know, stylish action. What Devil May Cry is all about.

Stylish action, sure, but based on all of the mechanics and animations they give you in the game. Gotta be painfully honest here, most of the things people do in DMC3 and 4 does not look stylish, it looks ugly as sin. Watching a character skip back to the beginning of an animation for half a second over and over again due to perpetual jump cancels, or flying around the room in a completely ungraceful pose like guarding, does not look stylish. I watch TrueStyle videos and I get bored at the repetition, but as soon as someone pulls out some awesome set-ups or a combo that results in a stylish finish, I wake up. The fact that the meta for this entire community has come down to a bunch of dick measuring of who can break animations the most is rather disheartening when the series is chock full of so many beautifully done animations.

This isn't to say that it's not amazing that people are able to do all that stuff, and the concept of being able to fly around the room with the right amount of technical know-how is cool, but the way it looks in execution is very bleh. It's like taking a dutch angled selfie in front of the Mona Lisa.

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But I know what you're getting at, Foxy. I don't think there's any reason to worry. DmC was specifically made as a game that could open the doors for new players to the rest of what the franchise has to offer, it's entry bar was low, but its ceiling high. Like I mentioned before, they should really just do a better job at balancing the difficulty levels in a way that actually makes sense, where Easy is actually easy by gaming standards, and not just DMC's.

 

[Innsmouth]

But it all seems to be based on opinions though. Like I said, some people aren't as familiar with the DMC series and its mechanics as most veterans or fans of the series are. I feel its still opinionated for that reason. Difficulty depends on the player not always the game itself.

It doesn't depends on the player. If somebody incapable to beat even the easiest games, it doesn't mean those games are hard. If you are incapable to play soccer, it doesn't mean it somehow becomes impossible game, etc. Just like wit study, you need to be able to compare one game to another to judge it. And even non DMC players who still play HnS like Ninja Gaiden can say wether they easy or not.

 

[DragonMaster2010]

It doesn't depends on the player. If somebody incapable to beat even the easiest games, it doesn't mean those games are hard. If you are incapable to play soccer, it doesn't mean it somehow becomes impossible game, etc. Just like wit study, you need to be able to compare one game to another to judge it. And even non DMC players who still play HnS like Ninja Gaiden can say wether they easy or not.

Yeah, that's what that post meant. It depends on the player, not the game. What's easy for some, isn't the same for others.

 

[Foxtrot94]

Doesn't quite mean that something wasn't lost in translation

Oh c'mon now. Don't pull that off. We're not talking about some Google Translate stuff.

it's entry bar was low, but its ceiling high.

Disagreed there. At least when it comes to vanilla DmC.



Also, what you said about repeated jc'd animations. Dude, you spoke my mind. I've never found that stuff cool looking and in fact when I say stylish action I don't mean THAT kind of action.

A good example of what I mean is donguri, who actually uses the animations in so many creative and cool ways. The latest example of it is a Vergil video, where he dodges Sanctus' bubble shield burst by using Vergil's FE Combo 2 sheathing animation, where Vergil ducks and sheathes Yamato.

And the use I've seen some people do of Nero's taunts and Dante's Style switching animations... THAT is what I'm talking about. And that is part of the reason why DMC3 and 4 are the most stylish Devil May Cry's out there.

And disagreed on Guard Fly not looking cool. It looks awesome as **** dude. I remember the latest donguri's entry for the tournament, and he was dodging all of Sanctus' laser beams by teleporting around with Guard Fly... priceless.



You put some of my concerns to rest though... guess we should wait and see? After all, "del doman non c'è certezza".

 

[Innsmouth]

Yeah, that's what that post meant. It depends on the player, not the game. What's easy for some, isn't the same for others.

I just said it doesn't depends on player. If somebody don't know how to use controller, it's his fault. Not the game's. so honestly if somebody not able to beat simplest game, I don't think he's accountable.

 

[DragonMaster2010]

I just said it doesn't depends on player. If somebody don't know how to use controller, it's his fault. Not the game's. so honestly if somebody not able to beat simplest game, I don't think he's accountable.

Again; that's what I meant. It's not the game, it's the player.
You say it doesn't depend on the player, then you say if the player doesn't know how to play, it's their fault.
And if the person can't beat the game, he IS accountable because he's the one playing the game.

 

[Innsmouth]

And if the person can't beat the game, he IS accountable because he's the one playing the game.

You can't make somebody accountable if he never played single game and than attempted and failed it. Statistic builds from casual representatives of the groups, not from extremes. As such very bad players doesn't belong to this statistics and irrelevant to game's difficulty.