if there is a DMC 5 proper by capcom....

[The Final Offer]

I personally don't think they would continue with the DmC reboot, but then again I could be wrong.

Capcom went on record and basically burned ninja theory, blaming them for a really crappy year of sales. While not naming their name specifically, only two games were actually named as specific examples. Resident Evil 6 was held up as a colossal failure, and DmC (the second named game) sold less than one fourth of that amount. The words "a decline of quality due to western outsourcing" come up. Of the two games, only DmC was actually outsourced to a western company.

ouch

We might see another devil may cry, but it's probably not going to be a continuation of the reboot, and chances are even higher that tameem (the one man bad PR machine, going out of his way to antagonize old fans and sabotaging sales for his own game) will not be involved with this project.

If they don't then so be it. There's a chance I could just leave the series alone entirely. I'm only saying this because of games like Mordor and Bloodborne. There's also the fact that it's up in the air about which version we're getting. It's another Megaman problem waiting to happen and I just can't do it again.

If Capcom is doing anything about burning Ninja Theory, then they should've shut the **** up about redesigning Dante and limiting them on what they can and cannot do with the series. All Capcom should've done is make sure that the combat was flawless. Ninja Theory can hold their own with stories, environments, and visuals. Meh whatever. I just don't like creative restrictions and then blaming them for following the rules you set.

 

[Kam]

If Capcom is doing anything about burning Ninja Theory, then they should've shut the **** up about redesigning Dante and limiting them on what they can and cannot do with the series. All Capcom should've done is make sure that the combat was flawless. Ninja Theory can hold their own with stories, environments, and visuals. Meh whatever. I just don't like creative restrictions and then blaming them for following the rules you set.

So let's say you're handed all the original DMC games, and asked to pick out a few things that are incredibly important to the game and deserve to be carried forward into a clean-slate reboot.

How high up would platforming segments and environmental puzzles be on that list?

Capcom's restriction was that they redesign the character into something new to draw a different audience. Yeah, we got that, but we also got a devil may cry game where entire levels are unbroken grapple/platforming puzzles with no combat required, bosses are glorified platforming puzzles, and the most hamfisted story delivery ever takes precedence over you being allowed to fight things.

The beginning of the virility factory is an absolute sin under the devil may cry name. You follow kat while she slowly jogs down winding corridors, gracelessly dumping exposition on you. She conveys by saying things like "I was so afraid", rambles on about her past in a thinly disguised attempt to make the player care about her, and at the end of this huge, boring slog? Is it combat? No, it's the biggest, emptiest, grapple-platformiest puzzle room ever made.

Capcom was only restricting their character design. Ninja theory ****ed up the rest of the game all on their own

 

[Innsmouth]

Well if we get DMC5 it would be day one for me. I don't really care if DmC2 ever be made, but if it will I hope they hire good writer for it and won't allow Tameem to write it completely on his own.

 

[The Final Offer]

So let's say you're handed all the original DMC games, and asked to pick out a few things that are incredibly important to the game and deserve to be carried forward into a clean-slate reboot.

How high up would platforming segments and environmental puzzles be on that list?

Capcom's restriction was that they redesign the character into something new to draw a different audience. Yeah, we got that, but we also got a devil may cry game where entire levels are unbroken grapple/platforming puzzles with no combat required, bosses are glorified platforming puzzles, and the most hamfisted story delivery ever takes precedence over you being allowed to fight things.

The beginning of the virility factory is an absolute sin under the devil may cry name. You follow kat while she slowly jogs down winding corridors, gracelessly dumping exposition on you. She conveys by saying things like "I was so afraid", rambles on about her past in a thinly disguised attempt to make the player care about her, and at the end of this huge, boring slog? Is it combat? No, it's the biggest, emptiest, grapple-platformiest puzzle room ever made.

Capcom was only restricting their character design. Ninja theory ****ed up the rest of the game all on their own

They restricted more than just character design.

Now, onto you, and your opinion. It's funny you should bring up huge, boring slog and puzzles. Because in DMC 1 you are given an empty castle to roam for six minutes. Six minutes of you just destroying suits of armor for orbs all the while trying to find out where the hell you're supposed to go.

Your other complaint is that you're grapple platforming with no combat. Did you not fight on your way to the top? Because in that segment is an mixture of combat and platforming. Also, to poke fun at the fact you were waiting Dante says "What took you so long?" When the demons appeared.

Now your last and most ridiculous complaint is speaking with Kat. You're upset, they actually flesh out a character and how her abilities work ? You're upset that there's legitimate reason for interaction between characters? The entire point is that Kat is not a third wheel and is very valuable to the team. But, let's chalk this up to your lack of patience and eagerness to return to the combat in which you missed within 2 minutes of not having.

 

[Kam]

They restricted more than just character design.

Now, onto you, and your opinion. It's funny you should bring up huge, boring slog and puzzles. Because in DMC 1 you are given an empty castle to roam for six minutes. Six minutes of you just destroying suits of armor for orbs all the while trying to find out where the hell you're supposed to go.

Your other complaint is that you're grapple platforming with no combat. Did you not fight on your way to the top? Because in that segment is an mixture of combat and platforming. Also, to poke fun at the fact you were waiting Dante says "What took you so long?" When the demons appeared.

Now your last and most ridiculous complaint is speaking with Kat. You're upset, they actually flesh out a character and how her abilities work ? You're upset that there's legitimate reason for interaction between characters? The entire point is that Kat is not a third wheel and is very valuable to the team. But, let's chalk this up to your lack of patience and eagerness to return to the combat in which you missed within 2 minutes of not having.

If platforming and the boring ramp-up was such a terrible design decision in DMC1, in what way does this excuse featuring it so prominently in the reboot? Shouldn't it be twice as damning then, because the reaction to this kind of gameplay in a DMC game would already be known and well documented as a bad thing?

In what world would a sane designer look at DMC games 1-4, and select grapple platforming as a thing that needed to be included in the next game? Sorry, no. Between all the bad decisions, questionable casting, shoddy writing, and hostile PR, ninja theory absolutely deserved the trash talking they got from capcom

 

[The Final Offer]

If platforming and the boring ramp-up was such a terrible design decision in DMC1, in what way does this excuse featuring it so prominently in the reboot? Shouldn't it be twice as damning then, because the reaction to this kind of gameplay in a DMC game would already be known and well documented as a bad thing?

In what world would a sane designer look at DMC games 1-4, and select grapple platforming as a thing that needed to be included in the next game? Sorry, no. Between all the bad decisions, questionable casting, shoddy writing, and hostile PR, ninja theory absolutely deserved the trash talking they got from capcom

It's featured because it's not as bad as you make it seem. What is really bad with DMC is the backtracking and that is toned down for DmC.

In DMC 4 Nero uses his grappling abilities to plant himself on platforms. The problem with this mechanic (to me)was the "comic" camera. The camera changed in DmC and it fits better here.

Quote the PR being hostile.

Questionable casting? Who was questionably cast?

Show me this article where Capcom trash talks Ninja Theory and not their own bad decisions.

 

[WolfOD64]

If platforming and the boring ramp-up was such a terrible design decision in DMC1, in what way does this excuse featuring it so prominently in the reboot?

Because in DMC1, the platforming was complete garbage due to stiff controls and sluggish movement (an element I find quite amusing considering how nimble Dante is supposed to be). In DmC, the platforming actually worked, and got the player around the stage rather speedily. It wasn't some ten minute chore, like that abhorrent light-platform puzzle in the room with the dinosaur skeleton in Mission 18 of DMC1.

In what world would a sane designer look at DMC games 1-4, and select grapple platforming as a thing that needed to be included in the next game?

See, it's funny you should mention DMC 1-4 and grapple platforming...because 4 did have that. Yes, Nero's Devil Bringer did have platforming segments (not all of them worked, but they were there). They functioned almost identically to the grapple platforming in DmC, except in the reboot the platforming was more diverse given how you had to pull terrain towards you and act quicker in certain situations.

In other words, grapple platforming...and platforming in general...has been in the Devil May Cry series, most notably the first and fourth games. So, to blame that solely on the reboot is not only narrow-minded, it's biased to an almost ludicrous level.

 

[Innsmouth]

Obvious difference between original and DmC is amount of platforming. One thing is small segment that takes 15 mins to finish and other is 60% of level that consists solely from platforming. (sometimes it's 95% like in case with trade mission)

 

[WolfOD64]

Obvious difference between original and DmC is amount of platforming. One thing is small segment that takes 15 mins to finish and other is 60% of level that consists solely from platforming. (sometimes it's 95% like in case with trade mission)

But the important difference isn't the amount...it's whether or not the platforming works in either game.

 

[Innsmouth]

But the important difference isn't the amount...it's whether or not the platforming works in either game.

It works? yes. Does it feel repetitive? Well, it did for me. So spending 60% of game on repetitive platforming, wether it works or not, didn't improved my impression from the game.

 

[Kam]

Oh boy, this will be a long one.

It's featured because it's not as bad as you make it seem. What is really bad with DMC is the backtracking and that is toned down for DmC.

You might argue that it's "not as bad", but is it more important than the combat? Entire boss fights are reduced to glorified platforming puzzles, and whole levels are one long grapple platforming puzzle with little to no actual combat. Are you seriously going to defend a level with zero combat in a devil may cry game? Are you so obsessed with disagreeing with me that you're honestly going to sit here and argue that cutscenes, platforming, environmental puzzles, and dialogue are more important to devil may cry than combat? Tell me if you honestly believe these things, it would save us both a lot of time

Questionable casting? Who was questionably cast?

The main actor for Dante, Tim Phillips, never voiced acted for a game before his role as dante, never did motion capture for a game before, and on top of everything else, has a strong accent that he had no prior training to hide before. All those lines where he sort of slurs or mumbles a word, or maybe inflects something in a really weird way ("Vergil! NOOOOO! aaaaaaaa!) was because he was struggling against his own accent the entire time.

Compare this to reuben langdon, who was a seasoned voice actor, experienced with motion capture, and a stuntman. All of dante's action lines are literally reuben stunting out those action sequences in real life, saying the lines as he goes. A good chunk of DMC3/4 dante's lines are also entirely reuben improv. Reuben was so good, dante became reuben, not the other way around.

Ninja theory wrote a version of dante, then cast an actor that essentially had no experience and a speech impediment, who couldn't do his own stunts, and clashed with dante's character on a personal level. How is that anything but a questionable casting decision?

Edit - and don't get the wrong idea, I agree that the recasting needed to happen (it was a new dante, reuben was too iconic to old dante to work) but at the very least they should have cast someone who wasn't suffering a handicap just reading his lines in the right voice. A heavy scottish accent doesn't just become american english with some easy faking

Quote the PR being hostile.

You're probably already well aware of all the "white hair drama" so I'll spare you the details on that. Another major incident involved an interview very early on when the reboot had just been released. Tameem was asked what he thought about negative fan reactions and his exact quote was "I don't care". Not a great way to start off with the fans

Probably the biggest incidents are tameem going on record bashing on the old dante design
"Dante just isn't cool any more. If he went outside and walked into any bar looking like that, he would be laughed out"

His **** talking our favorite character didn't stop there, he even went and released a pretty insulting series of pictures bashing on dante.
Calling dante a gay cowboy
Dante looks out of place and not cool
Comparing dante to weeaboo cosplayers
He just keeps going
Seriously, an entire gallery of **** just like this

Remember how tameem once mentioned they initially tried to make dante look like classic dante, and capcom threw the ideas out? Well in that same gallery was also their original dante designs.
He looks just like classic dante!
DMC3 dante didn't have a shirt either!

Bear in mind, this was directly after a bunch of NT employees (not sure if tameem was one) basically said that old fans couldn't see past the hair color and they were stupid for it. Then they release this "classic dante" series of designs where literally the only similarities are his hair color. The hypocrisy was staggering.

Show me this article where Capcom trash talks Ninja Theory and not their own bad decisions.

Capcom blames decline in quality on outsourcing
Goes on record avoiding outsourcing to western developers

In the first article, two games are specifically named as reasons why capcom made no money: RE6 and DmC. Of the two games, only DmC was outsourced to a western developer. Ninja theory did such a terrible job, capcom literally lost faith in every studio that isn't in japan

 

[Kam]

Because in DMC1, the platforming was complete garbage due to stiff controls and sluggish movement (an element I find quite amusing considering how nimble Dante is supposed to be). In DmC, the platforming actually worked, and got the player around the stage rather speedily. It wasn't some ten minute chore, like that abhorrent light-platform puzzle in the room with the dinosaur skeleton in Mission 18 of DMC1.

See, it's funny you should mention DMC 1-4 and grapple platforming...because 4 did have that. Yes, Nero's Devil Bringer did have platforming segments (not all of them worked, but they were there). They functioned almost identically to the grapple platforming in DmC, except in the reboot the platforming was more diverse given how you had to pull terrain towards you and act quicker in certain situations.

In other words, grapple platforming...and platforming in general...has been in the Devil May Cry series, most notably the first and fourth games. So, to blame that solely on the reboot is not only narrow-minded, it's biased to an almost ludicrous level.

How the priority should be:
Combat
Everything else

How the priority is:
Cutscenes
Grapple puzzles
Dialogue
Platforming sequences
Combat

There is absolutely no defending this. I don't pull out the fanboy card very often, but... if you're honestly saying this is what a devil may cry game should be, I hope you pee bees for the rest of your life

 

[WolfOD64]

How the priority should be:
Combat
Everything else

How the priority is:
Cutscenes
Grapple puzzles
Dialogue
Platforming sequences
Combat

There is absolutely no defending this.

You do realize that the original Development Team prioritized almost everything along with the combat, right? When making Devil May Cry 4, Kobayashi’s Team went to Europe to study towns and castles to make the environments. Puzzles and platforming had always taken a large, almost uncomfortable place in all the old games...mostly in DMC1 and DMC3. The story for each game was constantly being tossed around between Hideaki Itsuno and Bingo Morihashi and numerous other scenario writers…with things like dialogue, character relationships, and even approval from American scriptwriters constantly being utilized. And the cutscenes? All painstakingly choreographed by Yuji Shimomura and U’Den Flame Works, along with intricate motion capture for actors like Reuben Lagdon and Johnny Young Bosch.

How the priority is and how the priority should be are two very different things, pal. The old Capcom Staff prioritized just as many things over the combat system as Ninja Theory…the difference were the assets and the method used for both.

Without all these other things in high priority, I’m fairly certain Devil May Cry as a series and an essence wouldn’t have the heart and soul that makes it unique from other games in the genre.

And it’s not like all the Old Devil May Cry games prioritized the combat itself. Just look at the first one…or hell, the fourth one. It just recycled DMC3’s combat and added Nero’s Arm for some “new and inventive innovation”, all while the staff blew the rest of the budget on the cutscenes, story and content that would---in Kobayashi’s own words---“outdo the content of DMC 1-4 combined.”

The combat has never been the sole emphasis or highest priority. It’s just one of the priorities.

I don't pull out the fanboy card very often, but... if you're honestly saying this is what a devil may cry game should be, I hope you pee bees for the rest of your life

Well, then, I guess Capcom's Staff has been enduring excruciating bee stings in all the wrong places for the last ten years...because they've made every entry with the exact same mindset.

 

[Kam]

snip

sorry, I have a hard time believing combat was their number one priority when a boss is defeated using platform jumping and grappling pulls, and the action is interrupted at least 5 times with an unskippable cutscene. Some bosses are worse than others (The mundus fight is a steaming pile of platform jumping grapple swinging ****).

Let's follow an NPC as they slowly walk down a hallway and talk about their past for 5 minutes, and then that immediately leads into a huge room filled with platform jumping, grapple puzzles, and no combat. I man, I never realized how much the original team prioritized combat.

Let's have an entire level where you platform/grapple after a slow motion car and grapple things out of the way, and then let's put in only like 2 enemy spawns for that whole level. Oh boy, slow down DmC I don't know if I can handle all of this combat

What you're saying and what I'm seeing in the game are totally different. Either you or the game are lying to me.

 

[The Final Offer]

sorry, I have a hard time believing combat was their number one priority when a boss is defeated using platform jumping and grappling pulls, and the action is interrupted at least 5 times with an unskippable cutscene. Some bosses are worse than others (The mundus fight is a steaming pile of platform jumping grapple swinging ****).

Let's follow an NPC as they slowly walk down a hallway and talk about their past for 5 minutes, and then that immediately leads into a huge room filled with platform jumping, grapple puzzles, and no combat. I man, I never realized how much the original team prioritized combat.

Let's have an entire level where you platform/grapple after a slow motion car and grapple things out of the way, and then let's put in only like 2 enemy spawns for that whole level. Oh boy, slow down DmC I don't know if I can handle all of this combat

What you're saying and what I'm seeing in the game are totally different. Either you or the game are lying to me.

You took the example of the differences of visuals the wrong way.
You took what the PR said the wrong way.
You took the interviews ABOUT THE COMBAT the wrong way.

Just don't mention DmC ever again, just don't talk about it, because you're biased and completely delusional with the facts provided.

Our Favorite character.
Called us stupid.

Don't try to convert me to your beliefs with lies and false accusations. It's been proven they weren't doing those things. For some reason, you just can't process that. So, here you are talking **** about the game when the same things have been done in previous DEVIL MAY CRY games.

 

[Kam]

You took the example of the differences of visuals the wrong way.
You took what the PR said the wrong way.
You took the interviews ABOUT THE COMBAT the wrong way.

Just don't mention DmC ever again, just don't talk about it, because you're biased and completely delusional with the facts provided.

Our Favorite character.
Called us stupid.

Don't try to convert me to your beliefs with lies and false accusations. It's been proven they weren't doing those things. For some reason, you just can't process that. So, here you are talking **** about the game when the same things have been done in previous DEVIL MAY CRY games.

I haven't seen a tantrum like this since alchemist. You're a distant second, but you're still up there.

I've said it in literally every post I've made in this thread so far, but apparently it hasn't been enough so I'll say it again: if it was a terrible feature in classic DMC games, it's still going to be a terrible thing, and that's not an excuse to keep doing the same terrible thing in the newer games.

That's like trying to defend the mundus boss fight by saying that DMC4 had the savior boss fight, or that it would be okay to include the first person swimming level in DMC5 because DMC1 did it. Time spent jumping over gaps, pulling platforms around to stand on, or punching the floor so I can unlock a door is time that I could have been stabbing demons to death. It wasn't fun before, it's not fun now, and ninja theory already knew fans hated those segments because they already had four entire games worth of feedback telling them exactly that. But they did it anyway.

That's why I feel like ninja theory deserved every bit of criticism they got, and very little of their bad decision making can actually be attributed to capcom's decision to have a new dante.

 

[The Final Offer]

I haven't seen a tantrum like this since alchemist. You're a distant second, but you're still up there.

I've said it in literally every post I've made in this thread so far, but apparently it hasn't been enough so I'll say it again: if it was a terrible feature in classic DMC games, it's still going to be a terrible thing, and that's not an excuse to keep doing the same terrible thing in the newer games.

That's like trying to defend the mundus boss fight by saying that DMC4 had the savior boss fight, or that it would be okay to include the first person swimming level in DMC5 because DMC1 did it. Time spent jumping over gaps, pulling platforms around to stand on, or punching the floor so I can unlock a door is time that I could have been stabbing demons to death. It wasn't fun before, it's not fun now, and ninja theory already knew fans hated those segments because they already had four entire games worth of feedback telling them exactly that. But they did it anyway.

That's why I feel like ninja theory deserved every bit of criticism they got, and very little of their bad decision making can actually be attributed to capcom's decision to have a new dante.

How did you misinterpret what I just said TOO!?

How!?


You took the example of the differences of visuals the wrong way.
You took what the PR said the wrong way.
You took the interviews ABOUT THE COMBAT the wrong way.
You took what Final Offer had to say to you the wrong way.

 

[Dante's Stalker]

I don't have much to say other than I'm siding with Kam.

A heavy scottish accent doesn't just become american english with some easy faking.

Tim's Australian, mate.
Don't insult the scottish. There are many scottish actors who pull off awesome american accents (dude from xmen). Tim is too much of a newb though (sorry Timmy!) He didn't do his country proud.

+ I'd wager Tameem was looking at Dante art on a fan girl site. Gay cowboy....yep...I've seen it. I wouldn't call it gay but....yep. he was looking in the wrong corner of google.

 

[The Final Offer]

I don't have much to say other than I'm siding with Kam.


Tim's Australian, mate.
Don't insult the scottish. There are many scottish actors who pull off awesome american accents (dude from xmen). Tim is too much of a newb though (sorry Timmy!) He didn't do his country proud.

+ I'd wager Tameem was looking at Dante art on a fan girl site. Gay cowboy....yep...I've seen it. I wouldn't call it gay but....yep. he was looking in the wrong corner of google.

Lambs.

So, because Tameem and whomever else organized that discussion posted pictures of Anime Dante in Western culture and made great examples as to why he doesn't suit the theme they are going for. You are claiming he's talking trash about Dante's character design? When Ninja Theory was PUSHING for designs that looked like the original and CAPCOM said no!

What's worse is that you're saying that gay is a negative thing? What does his sexuality have to do with anything? Dante could be bi or a virgin for all YOU TWO know. Insulting people who aren't straight? You're out of line, both of you.

 

[Pale Rider]

Probably the biggest incidents are tameem going on record bashing on the old dante design
"Dante just isn't cool any more. If he went outside and walked into any bar looking like that, he would be laughed out"

His **** talking our favorite character didn't stop there, he even went and released a pretty insulting series of pictures bashing on dante.
Calling dante a gay cowboy
Dante looks out of place and not cool
Comparing dante to weeaboo cosplayers
He just keeps going
Seriously, an entire gallery of **** just like this

Remember how tameem once mentioned they initially tried to make dante look like classic dante, and capcom threw the ideas out? Well in that same gallery was also their original dante designs.
He looks just like classic dante!
DMC3 dante didn't have a shirt either!

Dude, but that's like, his opinion, man.
Of course, it's not an insult. I mean, would you get insulted if told your nose makes you look like you're eating a banana? That's my opinion, man, you shouldn't be insulted by it. You should praise tameem for being honest!!

Disclaimer: 'You' wasn't directed at you. Used it on general.


Though I agree with your points about platforming. There should have been less amount of it in DmC. That lava level(mission 17?) reminded me of Mario. Those good old days.