MigsRZXAStylish
In a place where no one follows me. i Walk Alone!
And the doors open to chaos because of this, an endless debate revolving around Capcom's original DMC canon... ><
Hypothetical Scenario: DmC's PR
- Thread starter DantesLink
- Start date
Enigma
Crimson Sentinel
The point I was making was that Dante is not the same Dante in DMC2 as in DMC1 or the other DMCs. What I meant was that the developers of DMC1 even found Dante to be so important that they decided not to consider DMC2 a DMC game.
I don't hate DMC2, I just don't consider its Dante to be Dante. The DMC1 creators are the ones who don't want to acknowledge the game. I personally have no problem with DMC2 itself.
To me, DMC1, DMC3 and DMC4 Dante all belong together. DMC4 Dante is a more mellow version of DMC3 Dante (less action all the time). DMC3 Dante is pretty much a younger, more cocky version of DMC1 Dante, while DMC2 just changes his personality altogether. I seriously can hardly remember the times DMC2 Dante spoke. I haven't finished DMC2, but I just watched the cutscenes, and he said like six lines in total.
DMC2 and DmC are the odd ones out. DmC for having a totally different world, atmosphere, characters, etc etc. DMC2 for having a very different Dante. The difference is: I still consider DMC2 to be a Devil May Cry game, even with that Dante.
Anyway, what I find more important is the atmosphere, the characters, the world/setting, that kind of thing. Having DMC-like gameplay only is not enough for me. The characters need to scream Devil May Cry. The environments need to scream Devil May Cry. The weapons. The style.
Dante could have blue hair, black clothing, whatever, it doesn't matter. All that matters is whether or not the game feels like a Devil May Cry. To me, DmC does not - it feels more like... well... a Ninja Theory game like Heavenly Sword.
DMC1, 2, 3 and 4 do feel like Devil May Cry.
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InfernalOverkill
Mors Ante Infamiam
I think I remember reading that he didn't even want a sequel made, so Capcom went ahead and got another team to do it? If that's true then really all I can say is screw the original team. They have my respect for making such an amazing, genre defining game, but to refuse to continue that awesomeness? I don't even...
I mean really, I can't even stress how amazing DMC1 was for its time. I was a die hard RE fan back then, and when I popped in that DMC1 demo that came with RE:CVX, I basically forgot RE existed for about 2 weeks lol.
MigsRZXAStylish
In a place where no one follows me. i Walk Alone!
And this is why I, along with some others, consider Devil May Cry hardly even a series! I guess DMC's original fate was just a one-hit-wonder made by the original dev team...!
Maybe it might be a big mistake for Capcom to make it a series in the first place if that is the case... This isn't what the original team wanted...
This is how my disillusionment towards this "series" came to be...! Such a truth that hits me so damn hard! -_-
But I made a thread around the DMC General Discussions sub-forum on what Devil May Cry would've been if it was still under the original team's hands should it under Kamiya-san's leadership be given a chance to make it a series. It can be viewed here. Overall, this one is my theory shared with @DMCGamer1989 on what DMC should've been... It may be quite old, but it can be of help...
Still, this is nothing but our own theory... A theory is just a theory after all...
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InfernalOverkill
Mors Ante Infamiam
Interesting thread.
I feel that is the original team had stayed on, the combat in DMC wouldn't be how it is in DMC3/4. Honestly I'm glad the original team didn't continue with DMC. DMC1 was a great game, and I'm sure the sequels by that team would have been good, but would they have been DMC3/4 combat level good? Judging by Bayonetta, no. DMC1 will always be the first "modern" hack n slasher out there, but DMC3 took it in a whole other
MigsRZXAStylish
In a place where no one follows me. i Walk Alone!
[1] Well, it would've been otherwise if they remember what they did for DMC1. But Bayonetta's gameplay is somewhat similar to DMC too, DMC4 in particular.
[2] It most definitely is. By DMC3, it became more of action than of horror and the supernatural. DMC1 had those horror-like elements the old Resident Evil (REs 1 to 3) had; in addition, DMC1 was a scrapped RE4 idea since Kamiya's team was asked by Capcom to do RE4, in which their ideas strayed too far for it to become an RE game. DMC3 had a cool thrill, anime trope cool that is...
InfernalOverkill
Mors Ante Infamiam
Oh? I haven't played it so my opinion was based off of YT combo vids. It just generally looks like a mess of QTEs to me.
The thing I miss most about DMC1, and to a lesser degree DMC2 is the horror element. I don't see why DMC3/4 combat mechanics couldn't be implemented into a horror atmosphere like DMC1.
That's where I'll disagree. I've never cared for anime and I think it looks cheesy. The thing I disliked most about DMC3 was the overall anime look of the game.
V's patron
be loyal to what matters
I thought people were more up in arms over the redesigns and the changes than necessarily it being a reboot.
People were against the idea of a reboot for the reasons ToCool74 talked about(rather seeing the story continue etc) but most people weren't liking the direction the series was going or they just disliked how it was handled(which is more likely).
People were just sick of how haphazard the series was jumping around and Capcom didn't feel that interested in tieing things together (which is why people wanted sequels or dissapointed with DMC4 in the first place). So people were okay with the idea of starting from scratch to get it right.
So most of the problems with the reboot came from this redesigns not resonating with people because everyone couldn't reconcile TGS10 Dante with Dante everyone knew and love. That negatively affected everything else PR-wise because fans had this mistrust of NT so it was hard for them to sell themselves as fellow fans.
So I think most of the pr problems would rooted in the initial reveal and the concept of DmC itself so those ideas should be looked at if you wanted to see if changing things would produce different results.
People were against the idea of a reboot for the reasons ToCool74 talked about(rather seeing the story continue etc) but most people weren't liking the direction the series was going or they just disliked how it was handled(which is more likely).
People were just sick of how haphazard the series was jumping around and Capcom didn't feel that interested in tieing things together (which is why people wanted sequels or dissapointed with DMC4 in the first place). So people were okay with the idea of starting from scratch to get it right.
So most of the problems with the reboot came from this redesigns not resonating with people because everyone couldn't reconcile TGS10 Dante with Dante everyone knew and love. That negatively affected everything else PR-wise because fans had this mistrust of NT so it was hard for them to sell themselves as fellow fans.
So I think most of the pr problems would rooted in the initial reveal and the concept of DmC itself so those ideas should be looked at if you wanted to see if changing things would produce different results.
Enigma
Crimson Sentinel
Yeah. To be honest, I would've liked the series to start making sense in terms of continuity. It being a reboot was not the issue to me. Or at least, it was only a minor complaint (DMC4 just left stuff hanging awkwardly).
In fact, I'd welcome a reboot. If only it stayed true to the original Devil May Cry type of style, atmosphere, characters and so on. The word 'reboot' does not imply that every aspect of the original has to be changed; it only implies that the continuity is changed and that the story starts from scratch. So it was a mystery to me why DmC did away with almost everything but the gameplay. In the end, it was because they wanted to 'westernize' DMC. I still don't see the need for that. It will not draw in a larger audience, it will just make Devil May Cry gain one audience and lose another (as we have seen from DmC's stagnant sales). No point in it.
In fact, I'd welcome a reboot. If only it stayed true to the original Devil May Cry type of style, atmosphere, characters and so on. The word 'reboot' does not imply that every aspect of the original has to be changed; it only implies that the continuity is changed and that the story starts from scratch. So it was a mystery to me why DmC did away with almost everything but the gameplay. In the end, it was because they wanted to 'westernize' DMC. I still don't see the need for that. It will not draw in a larger audience, it will just make Devil May Cry gain one audience and lose another (as we have seen from DmC's stagnant sales). No point in it.
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InfernalOverkill
Mors Ante Infamiam
Most of the DMC fans I know tend to share the same view as me; DmC was a good game, but a poor successor to DMC3 and 4 - but we still went out and bought DmC. Same line we took with BF3/4 - good games, but a real let down compared to BF2.
I'd guesstimate that DmC only attracted a small numbers of new players, and drove only a small number of old players away. In the end it was just a big load of controversy for no reason lol.
MigsRZXAStylish
In a place where no one follows me. i Walk Alone!
Then the better term for that is this:
RETCON
Which is a shorter portmanteau of "retroactive continuity".
Speaking of retcons, DMC3 kinda retconned things in DMC1, such as changing Sparda's backstory to that of Inuyasha and Sesshomaru's demon father who wielded three swords who in the end decided to give two of his swords to his sons which also went the same thing for Sparda.
No wonder Reuben Langdon himself even said that DMC3 is a reboot too... So I guess the DMC "series" got rebooted twice!
Also, some reboots don't need to be like the original, lest it'd be criticized as the same damn thing.
So what you are welcoming is more of a retcon and less of a reboot.
I have played Bayonetta. And I think you focused on the QTE parts too much when you watched those vids. So yep; Bayonetta is DMC with added QTEs, not that I mind the latter...
I'm with you on the horror part. Why can't action be mixed inside a horror atmosphere?
I guess you didn't see my point which is why you disagreed. But just look again how similar DMC3 is to Inuyasha and DMC4 is to Bleach, now that you said on the former has that overall anime look.
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Enigma
Crimson Sentinel
If retcons can also slightly alter the characters (make Dante a bit more DMC1-ish) and can restart the series, then yes. I think that would've been better, because as far as I know, people were excited about Devil May Cry being rebooted. Then they saw the change in atmosphere, style and types of characters, and most people found it to not be Devil May Cry-like enough.
Yeah, but about DMC3: it's not quite a reboot. The word 'reboot' explicitly implies that the series is restarted, like when you 'reboot' your computer. DMC3 caused some plotholes, like Vergil not having been kidnapped by Mundus when he was eight, but it didn't necessarily restart the series. DMC4 even takes place after DMC1, and 1 takes place after DMC3 chronologically.
No, reboots mostly shouldn't be like the original, but sometimes it's for the best. I know people had not had enough of DMC's style and atmosphere, so why westernize it? Besides, reboots usually don't westernize things. If the Batman movie with Christian Bale was first considered a reboot, that's fine. The story may have changed, but it was still very much recognizable as a Batman movie; it had the style you'd expect from it. DmC just seems like a totally different product than DMC altogether. No 'gothicness', no horror atmosphere, and no slightly anime-ish feel either. It's such a stark contrast, it's like the realm of Mania vs the realm of Dementia in TES IV: Oblivion.
MigsRZXAStylish
In a place where no one follows me. i Walk Alone!
It did restart it in Reuben's eyes and the DMC1 purists, as well as some others (even myself after realizaion hits me)... And yes, DMC's story made less sense by that, even lesser than the original DMC1. DMC1 might have the better story than DMC3 if that is the case.
DMC's setting has a modern setting, too. Look at Dante's office for example. Bottles of booze all over; his office even has a mini-bar by DMC4 by just looking at its secret ending. Dante held a box of pizza in it in DMC3.
Hell, the setting is modern even in the DMC anime. The jailhouse, the roads, etc.
There are cars also; DMC3 and DMC4 in particular have those; look at the crashed cars there. Dante even drove one since the very first ep of the anime too!
In DMC2, there is also a city where Arius' corporation building is in Vie De Marli, not just an old town, or an ancient ruin. The factory level there is also modern.
I think you missed those. So there's the modern setting part of DMC!
So the setting does not have to be exactly what the first did. Some people will eventually get bored of the repetition, seeing the same kind of setting over and over again... Thus the reason behind the 'westernization'. So thus, the setting matters not as long as demons can emerge anywhere.
Rebel Dynasty
Creator of Microcosms
I think in Reuben's case, it's because that's what he was originally told. I'm sure if he was asked that question now, his answer would be different. But I do agree, when 3 came into being, a lot of things did get shifted around, discarded, or remoulded. However, I don't take it as a bad thing (only a minor annoyance, because I actually like the DMC1 novel, and inconsistency in general drives me up the wall...that said, I really, really like DMC3, lol).
I wouldn't say it made it a reboot really, because that generally means starting the entire story over from scratch...whereas they managed to incorporate 3 into 1's story line. Admittedly, just barely...(those damn continuity errors, as always).
But anyways, that was just my two-cents' worth.
InfernalOverkill
Mors Ante Infamiam
Oh don't worry, I hate DMC4's look too lol. Everything is so....bright.
MigsRZXAStylish
In a place where no one follows me. i Walk Alone!
Hell, even DMC1's demons look scarier than DMC3's and even DMC4's. The Savior's inside didn't even look hellish enough!
Basically, this is the flaw of retconning everything. Even some say that DMC3 is a retcon to DMC1!I think in Reuben's case, it's because that's what he was originally told. I'm sure if he was asked that question now, his answer would be different. But I do agree, when 3 came into being, a lot of things did get shifted around, discarded, or remoulded. However, I don't take it as a bad thing (only a minor annoyance, because I actually like the DMC1 novel, and inconsistency in general drives me up the wall...that said, I really, really like DMC3, lol).
I wouldn't say it made it a reboot really, because that generally means starting the entire story over from scratch...whereas they managed to incorporate 3 into 1's story line. Admittedly, just barely...(those damn continuity errors, as always).
But anyways, that was just my two-cents' worth.
Enigma
Crimson Sentinel
?
I didn't say anything about how 'modern' it was. I just said that NT and Capcom decided to 'westernize' Devil May Cry. How modern it is has nothing to do with how 'western' it is. So... I think you're mixing them up. DMC1 was also modern - it simply had a gothic horror vibe to it, with a splash of anime/manga. DmC does not. That was my point.
Enigma
Crimson Sentinel
I think in Reuben's case, it's because that's what he was originally told. I'm sure if he was asked that question now, his answer would be different. But I do agree, when 3 came into being, a lot of things did get shifted around, discarded, or remoulded. However, I don't take it as a bad thing (only a minor annoyance, because I actually like the DMC1 novel, and inconsistency in general drives me up the wall...that said, I really, really like DMC3, lol).
I wouldn't say it made it a reboot really, because that generally means starting the entire story over from scratch...whereas they managed to incorporate 3 into 1's story line. Admittedly, just barely...(those damn continuity errors, as always).
But anyways, that was just my two-cents' worth.
DMC3 fit pretty well with DMC1, I think. I haven't read the manga, and I heard most of those books aren't canon.
The main problem with DMC3 is simply that it says Dante had always known Vergil, and that he met him again on the Temen-Ni-Gru, which never happened. After all, DMC1 has a cutscene in which Dante kills Nero Angelo, and a memory from when they were eight years old surfaces that explains he was Vergil. If DMC3 had happened, the memory would not be of them as eight-year-olds. Dante would also have recognized Vergil when he removed his helmet.
Not sure if there are more continuity errors, but it's been a while since I played DMC3, so maybe I've missed something.
MigsRZXAStylish
In a place where no one follows me. i Walk Alone!
I thought you missed on those... I was under that assumption. Sorry to confuse you there!
The westernization really doesn't matter. DmC's setting is what can also be seen around Dante's office in the original DMC...
Only DMC3 and DMC4 had those anime/manga vibes and tropes. DMC1, and even DMC2 for that matter, does not have those...
In Capcom's eyes, the books aren't even canon. So the guys there want you to believe that. There are others who consider them more canon than, Say DMC3. One even said that DMC3 is a retcon and that DMC Novel Vol. 1 should've been the prequel.
Ahh, the glorious weakness of a retcon...!
Rebel Dynasty
Creator of Microcosms
Apparently the novel was considered canon, until DMC3 came out. Or so I've heard; it's hard to say, since I only got it around Christmas. ^^;
There's one continuity error, though I suppose it could be explained away that, rather than dwelling on their fight, he reminisced about their childhood, instead. Also, a theory (and this is only to make sense of Capcom's foul ups) is that even upon seeing Vergil's face, he likely didn't believe it was actually him. He probably thought it was just some demonic trick.
I can't think of anymore off-hand, but I don't doubt that there's one or two.