Hypothetical Scenario: DmC's PR

[DantesLink]

Hey folks, posting a hypothetical to get others inputs on the matter.

Let's rewind back to DmC's announcement trailer, backlash from the reboot and Dante's redesign very well present. But this time, Ninja Theory is never involved with any press statements/interviews. In fact, PR/Press related events are handled only by the Capcom staff involved with DmC's development. No jabs from Tameem, no statements from NT that are taken out of context and paraphrased to death by fans. As far as the fan base knows, NT are just cogs in the machine and the public faces of DmC's development are Hideaki Itsuno, Alex Jones, and Motohide Eshiro.

Would the game have fared any better? (Both financially and among fans.)

Let's keep this discussion civil, folks; and I apologies in advance if this has already been touched upon, ending up only reigniting dormant flame wars and opening wounds.

 

[Chancey289]

The fans were the ones who cast the first stone. The ones who really needed work on their attitude and responses are the people of the Devil May Cry fandumb. That's the story and I'm sticking to it.

When it came to them talking about the game, fans never understood context and took whatever they wanted from these things. Looking for even more reason to condemn the reboot. And that went as far as making stuff up and hearing what they wanted to hear even if it wasn't being said.

Did that guy give some snarky remarks to some crazed fanboys? Yes and I don't blame him. It's a group a people attacking him daily over just doing his job. It's like this dude crucified their dogs or something. Did he also passively shrug things off? Yes. Both sides hold a bit of fault but the scale does indeed tip more to the fans. The entitled whiny little brats who just cry like little kids not getting what they want.

I still stand to this day saying DmC is one of the stronger titles in the franchise that definitely gets more hate than it deserved. First is still my personal fav but the game's overall fine. Could use a bit of polish of course but fans of the series shouldn't act like its really bad because if you are a fan of this series then why wouldn't it be enjoyable?

The problem is not really the PR or whatever. It's was there ever really a chance to convince a big group of stubborn fans to give this a fair shot?

Or are they forever just......

 

[Captain Xin]

The fans were the ones who cast the first stone. The ones who really needed work on their attitude and responses are the people of the Devil May Cry fandumb. That's the story and I'm sticking to it.

When it came to them talking about the game, fans never understood context and took whatever they wanted from these things. Looking for even more reason to condemn the reboot. And that went as far as making stuff up and hearing what they wanted to hear even if it wasn't being said.

Did that guy give some snarky remarks to some crazed fanboys? Yes and I don't blame him. It's a group a people attacking him daily over just doing his job. It's like this dude crucified their dogs or something. Did he also passively shrug things off? Yes. Both sides hold a bit of fault but the scale does indeed tip more to the fans. The entitled whiny little brats who just cry like little kids not getting what they want.

I still stand to this day saying DmC is one of the stronger titles in the franchise that definitely gets more hate than it deserved. First is still my personal fav but the game's overall fine. Could use a bit of polish of course but fans of the series shouldn't act like its really bad because if you are a fan of this series then why wouldn't it be enjoyable?

The problem is not really the PR or whatever. It's was there ever really a chance to convince a big group of stubborn fans to give this a fair shot?

Or are they forever just......

The thing is, some of the "fans" never want this game to be polished. They never want this game to be good.

Seriously, just look the comment section about DmC on Youtube. Just look at Ninja Theory's Facebook page. And let's not forget on what they did on Metacritic.

I can find better discussion on Animal Planet.

 

[Captain Xin]

On to the topic, my guess is: maybe.

To be honest, I'm more of the curious crowd when they first announced DmC. But the first impression of it really wasn't that great. The action looks bland, the enemy looks like something out of Silent Hill, and the quotes from Ninja Theory wasn't helping either.

However, what strike me the most was how the fans reacted to NT, it's like an international bully contest or something. NT announced the concept art for Ebony & Ivory, they flood to the Facebook page to nitpick everything around that thing, NT announced a picture of Dante with the Eryx Gauntlet, they copy&pasted a baby's head to it and call it "Humor".

Maybe NT won't get this kind of BS if their game's first impression wasn't that bad, but judging from the way some fans behave for the past three years, I highly doubt it.

 

[xMobilemux]

Game would have ended up with the same reception, just with a little less anger.
At the end of the day DmC would still be that streamlined show and tell and not a progression of the franchises core element.
Back when the Shadow Warrior reboot was announced, I and many other fans were furious, partly due to the stupid fun political incorrectness that made the original so known was being replaced by a more modern friendly serious story focused setting.
But the thing that ****ed me off the most was every single developer interview I read was basically screaming "streamlining" in my face, the devs were basically using the overused and universally hated "making the game more accessible" statement, but when the game was released, myself and a majority of the old fans were surprised by how well done the game was and how much of the original game was there, we pretty much thought FWH was messing with us in the interviews.
In a way DmC and Shadow Warrior went through the exact same thing, but why is DmC still hated by the fanbase and Shadow Warrior is loved by nearly all the fans?
Because in the end the prime points of Devil May Cry that most fans loved was dumbed down, ruined or removed in the reboot and nothing was done to make up for those eliminations, with SW a lot of progressions were made and a lot of work was put into the gameplay, mostly the sword play and while SW was a FPS, every SW fan knows the sword was the best weapon in the game and the reboot evolved that swordplay in so many good ways, that combined with the good story and good level design made up for the removal of the political incorrectness that fans liked in the original.

 

[Teal]

Would the game have fared any better? (Both financially and among fans.)

No, it wouldn't have. You see, those fanwankers never saw NT as a problem. They saw DmC as one. Dante's redesign was the main issue, then his foul language gave them even more ammo to bash the game. Vergil's new design, Ebony and Ivory, Kat..those were the little things they decided to nitpick later. Even if Capcom handled the PR, even if Hideaki Itsuno appeared as the main face of the development, the game would have still generated controversy as much as it has now. Nothing would have changed.

This could have gone better only if Capcom announced a sequel to DMC4 at around the same time, sorta what Hideo Kojima did by announcing Metal Gear Solid: Ground Zeroes just a few months before the release of Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance. Fans gave Rising chance, relieved that there is a game that stays true to the franchise coming soon and hey...they enjoyed it enough to crave for a sequel. It fared well enough financially, opening second after Crysis 3.

That's my opinion, I guess.

 

[Loopy]

Going by my initial reaction to the first trailer, which basically amounted to 'what have they done?! They've killed Dante!' I'd say the reaction would've been quite similar, just maybe without Tameem and possibly Alex getting the brunt of the rage and weird facebook comments.

They changed a very much loved character in that initial trailer and looked like they were going in a direction that many fans were uncomfortable with. And because first impressions count a lot, fans had that first trailer stuck in their heads.

Aside from that, a lot were unhappy about the change of studio, especially from a Japanese one to a little known Western one. Maybe if Capcom had not disclosed who was making the game, it would've gone over better....like the recent release of FFX HD being handled by a team in China, but SE kept silent on that until people had formed opinions.

I think they just changed too much and a lot of fans didn't like that, and didn't recover from that enough to give the game a go. They're a pretty stubborn bunch, but, at the end of the day, it's their choice to play or not.
The only thing I would have wanted was a bit more civility with regards to critique instead of childish comments and insults.

 

[Enigma]

''Would the game have fared any better? (Both financially and among fans.)''
I doubt it. If anything, all the commotion just got DmC more publicity, and may have helped rack up the sales. People who disliked the DMCs probably gave DmC a chance due to the negative publicity and fans' stance towards NT. I happen to personally know some people who bought DmC just to spite DMC fans and broadcast some smug message of 'western games are better'. That, and DmC simply brought in a different audience, while losing much of the previous audience.

And I wholly disagree with the idea that the fans ''don't want change''. I would have liked change, but it turned out to be a mediocre kind of change. Capcom/NT simply did the story of DMC all over again, made you fight Vergil again, threw some Mundus in there, and expected the game to do great. It was just a bad idea.

Moreover, the game doesn't look or feel like a Devil May Cry game IMO. It has some characters that like to call themselves Dante and Vergil, but in the end, we don't know them. They have completely different personalities, looks, attire, and so on. It's ridiculous to say they are Dante and Vergil. Might as well have given them random names - it wouldn't matter. The world does not have a gothic anime type of feel to it, the demons aren't very demon-like anymore. The soundtrack has nothing to do with DMC. Dante is now a pretty obnoxious character who sometimes speaks with a slur, as though he's inebriated or lost some brain cells.
It's not very bright of Capcom to expect people to like DmC, when it lacks so many things that attracted people to DMC in the first place. It's like giving your child an ambulance when he wanted a fire truck to play with. Are you really going to be insulted when the kid's not interested?

And then there's the overall quality of the game, which could've been better. I mean, I'd expect more from Capcom and Ninja Theory's collaboration. Lock-on was removed, I'm constantly making mistakes because of the shoulder buttons and triggers being all confused... the control scheme is just a bit less intuitive. I can get an SSS rank without knowing what I'm doing. The plot is no different from previous games, really. I thought it would be interesting, but it's just the story of Sparda all over again, only now it's told with a disappointing script, subpar acting, clichés, and graffiti and such 'edgy' stuff. I got the sense that NT didn't really know what it was doing sometimes. They heard Capcom say it should be 'westernized', so they decided to add to the game graffiti, an evil mobster cliché, people wearing Homburgs *shiver*, and a hobo hero.
And then there's this stupid anti-capitalist analog to the Illuminati theory going on. I just feel that's a cheap way of coming up with a plot. ''Ideas? Anyone? Alright, conspiracy theory it is!''

I don't know if it was even necessary to reboot the series. It did fine, and even DMC4 sold very well. The series has no ending, so why reboot it before ending it? Of course the fans will get ****ed.
If they feel the DMC series had lost its zest, why force their staff to continue making Devil May Cry games? Nobody ever thought it might be because they are tired of making them?

 

[InfernalOverkill]

I doubt it. People tend not to like change. As DMC4 showed us, we'll up with; a horrible story, ruining well liked characters (Lady the boobasauras rex and Trish the...yeah...)a completely new and annoying character, immense backtracking, Dante's decision to become a cowboy (chaps, really?), etc. as long as we get our fix of the Dante and combat that we know and love.

Realistically I'd say even the original DmC Dante, the heroin junkie looking emo tosspot that he was, didn't hurt sales that much. Most of the "WHAT HAVE THEY DONE?!?!?!" crowd went out and bought DmC anyway. I doubt the "I'm not buying that PoS" crowd was that big in all honesty.

I think the main difference for me was that I hated the characters in DmC. In DMC 3 and 4 I hated the look of the game, thought the story was generally bad, but I loved the combat and the characters. In DmC on the other hand the only redeeming factor for me in the combat, which whilst fun, doesn't really compare to how awesome DMC4's combat was. Is DmC a bad game? Definitely not. Is it a worthy successor to DMC3 and 4? IMO no.



A little off topic rant - as a chain smoking, foul mouthed CombiChrist fan with a Union Jack tattoo, I've gotta say I hated all of these things being in DmC. Dante doesn't smoke. Dante doesn't constantly swear. The Union Jack on his coat is stupid. CombiChrist and aggrotech in general do not fit DMC.

While I'm at it:
DMC3 Devil May Anime. Even the DT looked like some kind of crappy anime demon oop:
DMC4 EVERYONE'S DARK SOULS HAVE BEEN FILLED WITH LIIIIIIIIIIIGHT, SO MUCH LIGHT, LOOK HOW BRIGHT AND COLOURFUL EVERYTHING IS
DmC le edgy gritty reboot

DMC1 and 2 are the only ones that got the atmosphere and environments right. Dark and gothic > anime or whatever the hell DmC was trying to be.

 

[Railazel]

I would say no. Capcom was the one who pushed NT to make the game very different from the past games. So they would've reacted they same way by quickly trying to confirm to everyone that DmC was very similar to the past games.

 

[Demi-fiend]

@Chancey289

I was just thinking about that "I don't want change" meme the other day. Good stuff.

 

[mrrandomlulz]

I really love how you guys blame the bad PR on the initial fan reaction
A lot of the skeptics on this forum were just that. SKEPTICS
I will admit I was angered by the new Dante, but what really rustled my jimmies was more or less that Devil May Cry was being handled by the makers of Enslaved, Heavenly Sword, and Kung Fu Chaos.
I mean really? I get that developers have to be firm and follow their own visions.
But when you take a critically-acclaimed series with a loyal fanbase, and completely rework it from the ground up in terms of both gameplay AND story. Then at least have some kind of reputation to back it up.
I liked DmC, but the PR was practically the equivolant of Daniel Way trying to trash talk Joe Kelly
You may have wrote the modern iterations . But he wrote the arc people care about

 

[Enigma]

I just wish people would stop thinking that DMC fans didn't like DmC because of how different Dante was. That is only a minor part of why DmC is not enjoyable to many. Sure, some of the first responses to the first trailer pertained to Dante's looks, but that's because the first trailer didn't show much yet. The only thing it really showed was Dante and a panorama of Limbo. No gameplay, no story, nothing. So obviously if people don't like how Dante looks, they'll speak up about it, since it's one of the only things they could say anything about at that point.

And I'm sick of this 'you didn't like it because he didn't have white hair' or 'you didn't like it because he didn't look gaaay. Herpaderpa!'. Because you are apparently the one to decide that cowboy boots or leather biker pants are gay. Meanwhile, DMC4 Dante wields a sword that counts as a claymore, can use a devil form, is a real ladies' man, and yet somehow his boots make the entire character gay... yeeeah... makes sense. Besides, you're saying we didn't like DmC Dante because he didn't look 'gay', but aren't you a DMC fan too? So... Dante did not look gay in DMC1, 2 or 3 to you, but did in DMC4? The f**k? Not once did I get the sense that Dante wore any kind of gay-ish clothing, so I guess that's some people's homophobia bubbling to the surface.
And then there's that outfit in DmC... Neo Dante? Right, so DMC4 Dante is worse than that? :facepalm:

And the whole 'you don't like change' argument. It seems as though many people think that 'change is good in general'. It's like being in favor of a progressive political party's standpoints because 'change is good'. That's not the right stance to take. What you should be thinking is 'is change preferable and useful in this case, or mainly deleterious?' and THEN you decide what route to take, not before.
Almost everyone here would've welcomed change, I think. The problem is the kind of change, as well as its timing. The DMC series hadn't gotten a real conclusion yet, and I realize that DmC is a reboot, but that doesn't mean you have to change almost everything about it. A reboot means, and I quote from Wiktionary: ''The restarting of a series' storyline that discards all previous continuity''. That doesn't mean you should change the entire style, atmosphere and characters of DMC. Besides, NT wasn't the right developer to make a Devil May Cry-like game.
I'd love change, and I have no problem with the idea of a reboot, but at least make the game recognizable. And do it right the first time.

 

[Kaim Argonar]

Honestly I don't think it would have changed that much. Sure the fire wouldn't be skyscraper high if not for some comments placed by Tameem but **** really hit the fan, the moment fans caught wind of it being a reboot, rather than a proper sequel. There had always been that group who believed it was a prequel but many people who knew the series like the back of their hands, put two and two together much, much quicker. And as a result we have these responses up the wazoo.

They didn't want a replacement for the new Dante and the idea of scratching everything we had come to know about the series, to start over, just didn't bode well with fans. So who started what, is beside the point IMO. And so people understand, I'm not agreeing with the notion of hating DmC, just that I think fans would have been split regardless.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

...in general do not fit DMC.

To be fair, they don't fit DMC, but they sure as hell fit DmC, with its anti-establishment, rebellious punk theme; and the darker and more gruesome elements. DMC is about that clean and sleek style, which is fine and dandy, but DmC uses a more raw and chaotic style. They're both good, just...different.

The whole point of the westernization and making a separate universe altogether. This was a different DMC, and the one unifying factor being the spectacle action, which it retains. Look at the high-end gameplay of players like Cedrus (DMC4) and SamD (DmC) and they're remarkably similar. The ease of getting a SSS should never really be a complaint because it matters literally so little to the actual enjoyment factor. It's a bonus meter, and that's it. The point of a spectacle fighter is to be excited about what you're doing, not getting a pat on the back by the game.

Sure, some of the first responses to the first trailer pertained to Dante's looks, but that's because the first trailer didn't show much yet. The only thing it really showed was Dante and a panorama of Limbo. No gameplay, no story, nothing. So obviously if people don't like how Dante looks, they'll speak up about it, since it's one of the only things they could say anything about at that point.

The major problem by that point was that simply on the 90 second announcement trailer, people were absolutely livid, spouting vitriol almost immediately. They flew off the goddamn handle over so little. Then, they started listening to rumors, rumors with no foundation and that contradicted things that were being said by the developers.

It's not that people b!tched about DmC's changes, it's what spawned out of virtually nothing. Scientists should study DmC's announcement, because it defied all laws of physics when fans made something out of nothing.

 

[Railazel]

It's not that people b!tched about DmC's changes, it's what spawned out of virtually nothing. Scientists should study DmC's announcement, because it defied all laws of physics when fans made something out of nothing.

Welcome to the gaming community, where every person is a god in their own right.

Besides, NT wasn't the right developer to make a Devil May Cry-like game.

I would imagine that they would do as good a job as any developer. During their early conceptions of the game, DmC looked like a more extreme version of DMC 1, so they were definitely heading in the "right" direction concerning what fans wanted to see.

 

[Enigma]

I would imagine that they would do as good a job as any developer. During their early conceptions of the game, DmC looked like a more extreme version of DMC 1, so they were definitely heading in the "right" direction concerning what fans wanted to see.

The gameplay was handled by Capcom. As for the plot, which was handled by NT, well, it just didn't scream Devil May Cry to me. Seems like any other developer would have been more suited to making a Devil May Cry-like plot, atmosphere etc. Considering their past games, they really have no connection to DMC or any anime or gothic stuff.

 

[Teal]

I've really been trying my best to hold myself from sparking arguments, but the urge is too much for me to handle.

I just wish people would stop thinking that DMC fans didn't like DmC because of how different Dante was. That is only a minor part of why DmC is not enjoyable to many. Sure, some of the first responses to the first trailer pertained to Dante's looks, but that's because the first trailer didn't show much yet. The only thing it really showed was Dante and a panorama of Limbo. No gameplay, no story, nothing. So obviously if people don't like how Dante looks, they'll speak up about it, since it's one of the only things they could say anything about at that point.

I disagree. That's actually one of the main reasons they disliked new Dante. Sure, that kind of criticism wasn't done by fairly mature DMC fans but those kind of 10 year old little sh-ts. They're still part of the fanbase, so technically they're fans. Actually, when the old Dante hair was introduced as an alternative, I've heard people write in different forums "It's okay guys! Dante has white hair now, it's all cool" or other fans who mistook a photoshopped picture of new Dante with white hair as the real deal and ejaculated joy all over the interwebs.

Again, those were done by the immature part of the fanbase but nevertheless a part of it.

And I'm sick of this 'you didn't like it because he didn't have white hair' or 'you didn't like it because he didn't look gaaay. Herpaderpa!'. Because you are apparently the one to decide that cowboy boots or leather biker pants are gay. Meanwhile, DMC4 Dante wields a sword that counts as a claymore, can use a devil form, is a real ladies' man, and yet somehow his boots make the entire character gay... yeeeah... makes sense. Besides, you're saying we didn't like DmC Dante because he didn't look 'gay', but aren't you a DMC fan too? So... Dante did not look gay in DMC1, 2 or 3 to you, but did in DMC4? The f**k? Not once did I get the sense that Dante wore any kind of gay-ish clothing, so I guess that's some people's homophobia bubbling to the surface.
And then there's that outfit in DmC... Neo Dante? Right, so DMC4 Dante is worse than that? :facepalm:

Well, I sort of agree on this. I too have seen people refer to DMC4 Dante as gay, but I guess they were mainly targeting his attitude, not his cowboy boots. Let's be fair; DMC4 was simply an overly-exaggerated version of DMC3. Not exactly Itsuno's best work.

And the whole 'you don't like change' argument. It seems as though many people think that 'change is good in general'. It's like being in favor of a progressive political party's standpoints because 'change is good'. That's not the right stance to take. What you should be thinking is 'is change preferable and useful in this case, or mainly deleterious?' and THEN you decide what route to take, not before.
Almost everyone here would've welcomed change, I think. The problem is the kind of change, as well as its timing. The DMC series hadn't gotten a real conclusion yet, and I realize that DmC is a reboot, but that doesn't mean you have to change almost everything about it. A reboot means, and I quote from Wiktionary: ''The restarting of a series' storyline that discards all previous continuity''. That doesn't mean you should change the entire style, atmosphere and characters of DMC. Besides, NT wasn't the right developer to make a Devil May Cry-like game.
I'd love change, and I have no problem with the idea of a reboot, but at least make the game recognizable. And do it right the first time.

That is the point. They were not trying to get you through a nostalgia trip, they were trying to have you deal with a whole new experience - a more realistic one. We were past standalone civilizations who worshipped fictional gods, past those moments where seeing gargoyles and strangely decorated buildings was not a surprise. This is a world closer to ours, where people have jobs, the corrupted belong in the Wall Street, media controls in the background. Also, NT wasn't the best choice to take this very popular game, I agree, but they did one hell of a job.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

The gameplay was handled by Capcom. As for the plot, which was handled by NT, well, it just didn't scream Devil May Cry to me. Seems like any other developer would have been more suited to making a Devil May Cry-like plot, atmosphere etc. Considering their past games, they really have no connection to DMC or any anime or gothic stuff.

The gameplay wasn't handled by Capcom. They oversaw the game's development, but overall DmC was made completely by Ninja Theory. Capcom had its hand in the conception of the plot, making sure certain points were covered, and they took a look at the combat and gameplay, helping NT's dev team make tweaks where they thought it best.

It's part of the reason why DmC's development took a while, there was a lot of back-and-forth collaboration.

 

[Enigma]

I disagree. That's actually one of the main reasons they disliked new Dante. Sure, that kind of criticism wasn't done by fairly mature DMC fans but those kind of 10 year old little sh-ts. They're still part of the fanbase, so technically they're fans. Actually, when the old Dante hair was introduced as an alternative, I've heard people write in different forums "It's okay guys! Dante has white hair now, it's all cool" or other fans who mistook a photoshopped picture of new Dante with white hair as the real deal and ejaculated joy all over the interwebs.

Again, those were done by the immature part of the fanbase but nevertheless a part of it.

Well, I sort of agree on this. I too have seen people refer to DMC4 Dante as gay, but I guess they were mainly targeting his attitude, not his cowboy boots. Let's be fair; DMC4 was simply an overly-exaggerated version of DMC3. Not exactly Itsuno's best work.

That is the point. They were not trying to get you through a nostalgia trip, they were trying to have you deal with a whole new experience - a more realistic one.

I'm talking about the constant generalization of all traditional DMC fans as 'people who dislike change' or people who dislike DmC purely because of Dante's hair. Sure, I don't deny that there were people who could not look past minor changes. But I've seen many of the more traditional DMC fans get flayed just because DmC supporters didn't want to hear their arguments. As soon as they said something sensible, some DmC supporter would come around yelling ''you're just a hater!'' saying that their real reason for hating DmC as a whole was Dante's hair. It was a cheap way of debasing the fans that didn't want DmC.
I actually don't think I've seen people whine about his hair since the first trailer. The only time I heard his hair being mentioned after that was by DmC supporters.

A very small part, I think. Not enough to warrant calling down/calling out all conservative fans for it.

They have a very odd view of what it means for something to be gay, then. I guess they meant 'lame', not gay. I don't know, I thought DMC4 Dante was a lot like DMC3 Dante. The only difference is that 'Dante3' had somebody to be more sensitive towards (Lady). He also needed somebody to be a bit sensitive towards. In DMC4, there's nobody to really draw out his serious, caring side, and nobody needs to, because the plot doesn't require it. The emotional person in the story is Nero, and Dante serves as his antithesis, to give the story a lighter touch.
In the end, I found that you could still see that Dante was the same, when he talked to Nero (mainly at the game's conclusion). He's almost exactly like DMC3 Dante to me, only a bit less focused on doing stunts and being over-the-top, and more on making witty remarks. I guess he's mellowed a bit in his old age. :tongue:

Yes, but that is my point: few people wanted that. The ones who fell in love with the DMC games did so for many reasons, not the least of which were the anime/gothic feel, the over-the-top characters, the cheesiness, and the overall Japaneseness of it all. Oh, and some good mythological references, the witty remarks between the characters, etc etc. When they decided to westernize it and make it more realistic, they threw away those elements, gaining one fanbase and losing another. They should have anticipated that. Instead, they were disappointed by DmC's sales, and now it's not certain if Devil May Cry games will ever be developed again. Seems like a pretty stupid mistake to me. I wonder what would've happened if they simply restarted the story but made it VERY different, but kept the same kind of atmosphere and anime characters. Might've sold better then. Or if they simply ended the DMC series first, THEN tried their hand at rebooting it.