Hypothetical Scenario: DmC's PR
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InfernalOverkill
Mors Ante Infamiam
I don't know much about anime other than the fact that it makes me recoil in disgust whenever I see it, but I didn't see DMC as animeish until DMC3.
DMC1 for example feels very western to me; Dante is a badass with a Van Helsing style fashion sense, dual wields 2 M1900s, has a medieval looking sword, goes around a European looking castle killing demons, fights a demonic knight named Nelo Angelo(Nero Angelo = "black knight" in Italian), a main boss named Mundus(Latin for "world"), Alastor looks very much like a Claymore and in Greek mythology is linked to Zeus, Griffin being a Greek mythological creature, the trident (Posideon), the staff of Hermes, philosopher's stone, etc. seems overwhelmingly western - especially European.
Of course guns, swords, armour, etc. aren't inherently western, it just gives off more of a western vibe to me. If Dante was a Japanese dude running around with Yamato and got into a fight with a demonic Samurai and a [Japanese] dragon, I'd be more inclined to describe DMC as a series with "Japaneseness". As it stands, although made by a Japanese company, I wouldn't say there was much of a Japanese vibe until DMC3, which did so visually. And then DMC4 introduced Kyrie, who has the quintessential annoying anime voice.
Random thought, seeing as how Capcom got the Italian translation for "black angel" wrong, I guess it's a good thing they didn't decide to use Latin LOL.
Valid point. And I guess Aggrotech bands fit the visual of DmC more than Hardcore Punk bands do.
I do find it rather humorous that they went with Combi though. In the Harsh EBM/Terror EBM/Aggrotech/whatever the hell you wanna call it world Combi is generally looked down upon, in a similar way to that of Slipknot and Green Day being looked down upon in Metal and Punk, although Combi doesn't get that level of flak, and unlike SK/GD they don't really deserve it. But I digress, Combi being hated by a vocal minority within Aggrotech = DmC being hated by a vocal minority amongst DMC fans. Lol.
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Enigma
Crimson Sentinel
This is stuff I wouldn't easily see in western games, TBH. The Japanese seem more interested in mythology, anyway. I started playing the DMC games from 1 on and started watching anime before that, and yes, some aspects of it are anime-like. The fact that the demons can talk, and almost like normal people, seems Japanese enough to me. The way Dante looks in 1, too. I mean, you can't really find a guy wearing red clothing, having white hair and so on incredibly western? Besides, he doesn't look all that different from DMC3 Dante, so I have no idea how he would look western in DMC1 but animeish in 3. Dante walked through a castle in DMC1, and walked through a huge tower in 3... relevance? Enemies in DMC3 weren't exactly Japanese either (Nevan, Beowulf... heck, Agni and Rudra). Same goes for the weapons. Nevan is a saint in Irish folklore. Agni is a god of fire, Rudra a god of wind. Nothing Japanese about it. DMC1 did incorporate more horror than DMC3.
Aside from that, the names being derived from western mythology doesn't seem important to me. Though I'll admit DMC3 (and perhaps DMC2 a bit) took the anime part a bit further than DMC1.
InfernalOverkill
Mors Ante Infamiam
Constantine, Buffy, Angel, Supernatural, etc all have a heavy mythological influence, why is it weird for DMC to have it?
Demons talking normally is just a convenience thing. Having them all sound like Death or Black metal singers, whilst inherently more demonic than regular talking, would just be annoying for most players.
His look is odd - primarily because of the red colour scheme. That exists because Dante is red, Vergil (or Nelo in DMC1) is blue, and Sparda is purple, a combination of those 2 colours, Had they not thought that up it's very likely Dante would've been decked out in 100% black - which is less weird. Blade? Basically everyone in Underworld? Spike? Angel? Van Helsing? Even the white hair thing is really just a plot related oddity, it's an easy visual cue of Cambions.
DMC3 Dante himself isn't that much more anime in my eyes (aside from the random duster + no shirt combo), the game itself is just more anime. Everything in DMC3 is visually more cartoony than DMC1 or 2.
Fair point about DMC3's bosses.
1 and 2 keep the gothic feel for me. It's 3 ad the brightly coloured 4 that look anime to me.
Those look demonic to me
Those? Cartoony.
Demons talking normally is just a convenience thing. Having them all sound like Death or Black metal singers, whilst inherently more demonic than regular talking, would just be annoying for most players.
His look is odd - primarily because of the red colour scheme. That exists because Dante is red, Vergil (or Nelo in DMC1) is blue, and Sparda is purple, a combination of those 2 colours, Had they not thought that up it's very likely Dante would've been decked out in 100% black - which is less weird. Blade? Basically everyone in Underworld? Spike? Angel? Van Helsing? Even the white hair thing is really just a plot related oddity, it's an easy visual cue of Cambions.
DMC3 Dante himself isn't that much more anime in my eyes (aside from the random duster + no shirt combo), the game itself is just more anime. Everything in DMC3 is visually more cartoony than DMC1 or 2.
Fair point about DMC3's bosses.
1 and 2 keep the gothic feel for me. It's 3 ad the brightly coloured 4 that look anime to me.
Those look demonic to me
Those? Cartoony.
Rebel Dynasty
Creator of Microcosms
^This pretty much sums it up for me.
And while I respect your viewpoint Chancey, I can't agree with it. They say the fans were the ones to blame, but both Capcom and NT handled the PR horribly, there is no escaping that fact. I understand that, as a creator, writer, whatever, Tameem may have taken some of the backlash personally. But as professionals, he and Alex are expected to handle these things in a professional manner, and they both failed-epically, I might add.
It was their overly entitled, "Shut up and like our game without making an educated decision on it" attitudes that put a lot of people off of the game. If it wasn't sitting under the Devil May Cry title, I may have been able to warm up to it; but, I just can't. Oh believe me, I've tried. I really, really have...
But to me, those characters just aren't the ones I know. With the whole debacle going down the way it did, the damage is done. I'm sorry, that's just the way it is.
If they had handled the PR better (not just NT, but Capcom, above all) I may have been more inclined to give it a show. I still would have been skeptical, but I pride myself on my willingness to try out new things.
However, they expected respect from the fans, when they gave none in return. For those people who like one or both franchises in part or in whole-kudos. No seriously, kudos; I wish I had that level of forgiveness and openness.
Edit: For the record, I respect all of you, regardless of whether you like DMC1, 2, 3, 4, DmC, or not. I just can't agree with all of you, that's all...
Also, I apologize if I've been kind of snarky, lately. Don't know where that's coming from.
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V's patron
be loyal to what matters
I wouldn't say NT was the cause of the problem, they only added to it so removing them from the equation wouldn't change much.
It be more interesting to see what would have happened if capcom and NT pulled a Phantom Pain and presented DmC as a new IP instead of a DMC game for the first two years and then when we get close to the game's release, we pull the rug out from under you and BAM!!!
Could have been interesting to see how it was received given that TGS 10 was so drastically different would people have noticed before the big reveal?
It be more interesting to see what would have happened if capcom and NT pulled a Phantom Pain and presented DmC as a new IP instead of a DMC game for the first two years and then when we get close to the game's release, we pull the rug out from under you and BAM!!!
Could have been interesting to see how it was received given that TGS 10 was so drastically different would people have noticed before the big reveal?
TWOxACROSS
Hot-blooded God of Guns
As much as I loved the "what is your name" thing in the announcement trailer, I think some worries would have been alleviated if they had led with something like this...
...since it shows much more of the angle the game is going for with Malice and Limbo, and the anti-demon-establishment conflict. It shows off some more iconic action, and gives you the shot of Dante's Devil Trigger to show that something is up.
The announcement trailer raises a lot of questions, but the CG trailer (if used first) would have raised better ones without causing nearly as much hub-bub.
...since it shows much more of the angle the game is going for with Malice and Limbo, and the anti-demon-establishment conflict. It shows off some more iconic action, and gives you the shot of Dante's Devil Trigger to show that something is up.
The announcement trailer raises a lot of questions, but the CG trailer (if used first) would have raised better ones without causing nearly as much hub-bub.
Captain Xin
Well-known Member
You don't have to be a saint to enjoy both the original AND the reboot, I like the original for all of those styilsh, over-the-top, anime combat fun. But I also enjoy the gritty, edgy design and the satisfying combat system the reboot offers.
PS:
I felt a lot of quotes from NT were not that relyable at all, Lot's of them were quoted out of contest, some of them were even made up to make these developers to look more like an ass. In that case, I would recommand taking a REAL look at the interviews those snarky quotes were coming from. Personally, I do think there were some interesting reads in those interviews.
Enigma
Crimson Sentinel
Perhaps.
I don't know if I'm one of the few who feel this way, but that trailer is pretty annoying to me simply because of how smug Dante sounds when he says his name, and how cliché certain things are (ooooh, I'm wearing a hoodie, how cool am I?) or that guy sitting there with his 'b*tches'... it all seems painfully obvious that they tried to make it as cliché western as possible. I don't know how it is for most Devil May Cry fans, but it's enough for me to suspect that the game would be sort of dull. I don't want to be that guy who sees problems with everything, but it's hard not to be with this kind of trailer.
Enigma
Crimson Sentinel
Well, yeah, DMC3 and DMC4 are a bit more anime-like, but that doesn't mean DMC1 wasn't like that at all. I've always seen the rock music that plays under battles as sort of Japanese. I mean, I'd expect some kind of typical 'epic choir' to provide the music - that seems western. Swords that radiate electricity, Dante talking about honor to Nero Angelo... western people wouldn't really care, usually. They'd just tell him to kick his ass, kill him and be done with it.
Anyway, my first point was that people fell in love with DMC for its atmosphere, style, and even its animeness. A lot of people first started playing the DMC games with DMC3, or even DMC4. It made them interested in DMC1 and 2. And then DmC comes along and... well, I realize it's a reboot, but there was no need to alter things so dramatically. As far as I know, people enjoyed DMC1, 3, and even 4 immensely. There was no indication that the entire overworld had to be changed including its atmosphere and type of characters. If I were to take MGS3 and turn it into Splinter Cell, many people wouldn't be happy either.
TWOxACROSS
Hot-blooded God of Guns
Y'know...having worked in retail (one of the worst social-business environments known to man) for nearly a decade, I can honestly say this needs to change. It's getting to the point where it's rather bullsh!t to expect someone to handle things in some professional manner when the instigators are not. It is horrible double-standard and completely infuriating at times.
People actively told Tameem to f#ck off and die, and he's not allowed to be a little snarky? What the f#ck kind of standard is that? He was the fandom's vitriol dumpster for two years, and when he gets a little snarky everyone cries foul? Utter and complete bullsh!t, honestly.
That never happened. As much as they told people was "Hey, please give the game a chance. Stop sh!tting on it just because it's different."
They really didn't ask for any more respect than anyone should be given for just...doing whatever. The disrespect started with some really irate fans, and it was primarily their show. Much of what was given as criticism (other than what is completely visible in the game itself) was a multitude of things taken out of context, like...
- "They called us sheep!" No, a Capcom rep said that there was quite a bit of vitriol from a 90-second trailer and unsubstantiated rumors, and that once more footage and information was available, they imagine a number of sheepish fans will begin to think better of DmC. Sheepish here meaning: embarrassed. I literally had an argument with someone about that, and it was goddamn embarrassing to see that guy not understand contextual English...
- "Tameem is making DmC for himself, he doesn't care about us fans" An article asked him what he thought about game development and sales and such, and he responded talking about how you have to love what you're creating, and not focus on sales ("if it sells a hundred or a million doesn't matter"), and that when you make a game, you can't make them based on what some majority demographic wants, because it leads to creative bankruptcy (for instance: CoD syndrome). It had very little to do with DmC itself
- "Tameem doesn't even like Devil May Cry!" Yeah no...he's said several times that he is a big fan of the series. Someone said that he wasn't because Tameem couldn't remember when DMC1 was released...similarly people say he lambasted Bayonetta, despite also saying that he thinks it's a really cool game, just "way too over-the-top Japanese-y" for his taste.
- "Tameem said Dante isn't cool anymore!" That's right, he did say that, but there was more to what he said. Tameem's full discussion was about how Devil May Cry was an amalgamation of what was really popular in the lat 90s and early 00s (stylized Gothica, trenchcoats, rock/electronica, occultism, and anime that Dante fit right into) isn't so popular anymore. Plus, with them trying to make Dante a more down-to-earth, normal-looking guy, the "Classic Dante would get laughed out of a bar" line is true as well, because he's talking about the classic Dante's flamboyancy is completely at odds with DmC trying to make things look halfway "normal", with Dante being a guy you could pass on the street and not really give a second thought to.
And a bunch more that's just too idiotic and lengthy to list :/
Then there's just the general vitriol of them "not listening to the fans" simply because the fans wanted things changed that are core mechanics of DmC itself. It's like b!tching at the sun for rising in the morning.
And y'know how bad those unsubstantiated rumors were? Holy crap, people believing that guns would have a cooldown (no evidence to support it ever came up), that the game would have dial-a-combo, and most of the "leaked" information from 4chan that we all know ended up being false.
I'm really not kidding when I say the fans are way more at fault for the "bad PR" than anyone, then you add in asshats like EventStatus throwing more fuel on the fire by willingly reporting misinformation (and actively blocking users who attempt to correct him), and it just gets worse. The PR seemed bad because upset fans wanted it to seem that way.
I saw it all, because I was really interested in the direction DmC was gonna take, and I love DMC, so in my search for any little bit of information I could find, I saw a LOT of the worst of this fandom.
Or just being succinct :tongue: Rather odd to be concerned with the random voice actor sounding smug when 75% of the games in the classics had an extremely smug Dante of their own. We could also argue that smugness is in the eye of the beholder, though.
It was raining, he has a hood. How is it bad that he actually uses his hood for the exact reason it was designed for >.>
Shows off the excess and debauchery of the demonic establishment, it's a quick shot to help establish that Moneybags McChubster isn't innocent. It's a lot of quick things to establish in 90-second spot, but they did it well.
DragonMaster2010
Don't Let the Fall of America be Your Fall
I see it as a two way mirror. Both sides said things they really shouldn't have.
But in my opinion I say its more on the fandom. Misinterpritation of info, thowing bullsh!t anyway seen fit, failure to distinguish punk british movement with emo, unrealistic understanding of the reboot's purpose, no ACTUAL critism to try to make the game better (no suggestion of turbo, gun kata, etc.) death threats (?) smeer campaining, false info, and now "UR NO REEL FAN OF DEVIL MAY CRY IF YOU LIKE DmC YOU F*CKIN LOSER! GO TO HELL FAGGOT BITCH!!" This was on my Tumblr.
But in my opinion I say its more on the fandom. Misinterpritation of info, thowing bullsh!t anyway seen fit, failure to distinguish punk british movement with emo, unrealistic understanding of the reboot's purpose, no ACTUAL critism to try to make the game better (no suggestion of turbo, gun kata, etc.) death threats (?) smeer campaining, false info, and now "UR NO REEL FAN OF DEVIL MAY CRY IF YOU LIKE DmC YOU F*CKIN LOSER! GO TO HELL FAGGOT BITCH!!" This was on my Tumblr.
Rebel Dynasty
Creator of Microcosms
TwoXAcross: I'm not denying that quite a few of the fans added to the problem; that being said, I think the numbers were exaggerated. I find it decidedly unfair to have the entire fanbase labelled because of a handful of extremists. I'd never have told Tameem to die. As far as I knew, there were only a handful of ass-hats pulling sh*t like that.
Look, I get where you're coming from; I've worked in customer service, and it really is thankless beyond belief; customers can be entitled little assholes, when they want to be...
But there were also people only making minor complaints to Tameem, only to have him bite their heads off. I know I've also said this in the past, but I'm not even putting this on Tameem; the Capcom reps didn't do any better, in this case.
The long and the short of my opinion is this: PR was handled poorly, and a good number of the fans contributed to that negativity...that's it. The whole thing went straight to hell, I know; I may not have been on the boards, but I was elsewhere; youtube all but f*cking exploded. It was disgraceful.
But again, what's done is done; no amount of "I'm sorry" from fans or the companies alike is going to change that, now.
Look, I get where you're coming from; I've worked in customer service, and it really is thankless beyond belief; customers can be entitled little assholes, when they want to be...
But there were also people only making minor complaints to Tameem, only to have him bite their heads off. I know I've also said this in the past, but I'm not even putting this on Tameem; the Capcom reps didn't do any better, in this case.
The long and the short of my opinion is this: PR was handled poorly, and a good number of the fans contributed to that negativity...that's it. The whole thing went straight to hell, I know; I may not have been on the boards, but I was elsewhere; youtube all but f*cking exploded. It was disgraceful.
But again, what's done is done; no amount of "I'm sorry" from fans or the companies alike is going to change that, now.
Rebel Dynasty
Creator of Microcosms
F*cking Christ...
A fan, is a fan, is a fan...
No one has the right to tell you, otherwise.
TWOxACROSS
Hot-blooded God of Guns
Oh of course. It's not the entire fandom's fault, but the lowest of the low, who were very outspoken and extremely vocal. There was even a GameFAQs thread declaring the "mission statement" of what we'd call those extremists where they prattled off their plan to ensure that misinformation was heard over anything else, and all this other really dumb stuff :/
The one time I have seen Tameem "bite anyone's head off" was actually not even that, because he replied to the wrong guy. He was getting bombarded with tweets when the demo came out, and I had been following his responses when it came up. The tweet he actually was trying to leave his snarky response to was from someone just being a gigantic turd about how using Ophion Angel Pull needs a fix because it keeps you airborne :/
The one time I have seen Tameem "bite anyone's head off" was actually not even that, because he replied to the wrong guy. He was getting bombarded with tweets when the demo came out, and I had been following his responses when it came up. The tweet he actually was trying to leave his snarky response to was from someone just being a gigantic turd about how using Ophion Angel Pull needs a fix because it keeps you airborne :/
Rebel Dynasty
Creator of Microcosms
Y'see, it's people like that that **** me off. It made it much harder for people trying to approach the situation objectively to do adequate research on the whole thing. I'm not one to believe everything I read or hear, but trying to separate the truth from the lies certainly became mind-numbing, after awhile. People like that are sick, need help, and need to refrain from being the "spokespeople" of the many.
Ah, that's right, too, you did tell me about that (because I recalled the tweet as well).
I think it's pretty much as DM said: the fault existed on both sides; I was just barely starting on the Devil May Cry games myself, when all the DmC PR started popping up. Yeah, I know, took me long enough to get into the franchise (considering I'd been watching the anime for over 4 years, by that point-the lack of console may have had something to do with that, though).
I should probably throw this out there; I barely recall the trailers from 2010 or 2011; but, I do remember the outcry just before it was released last year...so, in late 2012, I guess. My initial reaction was mixed; on one hand, he didn't look like the Dante I knew, but that didn't immediately bother me; however, the more I saw of the character, the less interested I found myself with the game.
I'm sure there were just as many people that felt the way I did; didn't initially like it, but other than to defend themselves against the more aggressive DmC supporters (because they exist, and they can be every bit as ruthless as the classic DMC extremists) didn't feel the need to make a big deal out of it.
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Enigma
Crimson Sentinel
No, I didn't find old Dante to sound smug, really. Cocky, yes, but not smug. Twice now I've heard new Dante say ''my name is Dante'' in a kind of smug way, like ''my name is Dante! How could you not know that?'' Besides, he sounds like a spoiled little kid, whereas old Dante simply knew he was powerful, and didn't feel the need to tell demons his name, as though his name somehow makes him special or entitled to something.
Any time old Dante sounded smug, it was meant as a joke - like when he said ''my father wasn't that ugly. Can't you tell by looking at me?'' all the while holding up a hand mirror he pulled out of nowhere. (EDIT: alright, that was Johnny Bravo, but you get my point). It was meant to be a cartoonish joke, and it was also meant as a way to annoy his enemy.
You seriously don't think it was meant to make him look 'cool' and make him stand out from the crowd? The setting of the trailer might as well have been in bright daylight - it wouldn't have changed anything, other than that the people on the street wouldn't be using umbrellas. This was all clearly set up to give Dante a reason to look 'gangsta' *shiver*. Why not use an umbrella and do something interesting with that? For example, he could use it as a weapon once he enters the building. Or give the umbrella some kind of feature (like a red color) that makes it stand out from the other umbrellas so you know something is going on. Or... he could just not use any cover for his head, to indicate that he doesn't care about a little rain, as a symbol that the demons' influence doesn't extend to him.
I thought it was clear he 'wasn't innocent' from the minute Dante started, you know, fighting the legions of demons hanging around there. Obviously that guy is not innocent if he's not finding a way to escape or fight back. I know it's an easy way to rationalize these choices, like you said. But that's just it: because of how 'easy' it is, it looks tacky and cliché. But hey, I guess that's just my view. I like games and trailers to be a bit subtler than that.
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Rebel Dynasty
Creator of Microcosms
Actually, he was looking at his reflection in Rebellion's blade when he said that. XD But yeah, I derived humour from most of Dante's cocky antics, as well. It was never meant to be taken seriously; he knew who he was and what he was, he had mixed feelings about that, but he made the best of it. That's how I see him.
Of course, everyone is going to interpret it differently, but that's what keeps things like this interesting.
I can't really nitpick his clothing, but the moment you mentioned the umbrella being used as a weapon, my mind instantly went to Roberta from Black Lagoon. :laugh: It would have been interesting to see something that isn't ordinarily a weapon being utilized as one, though.
Enigma
Crimson Sentinel
Actually, he was looking at his reflection in Rebellion's blade when he said that. XD But yeah, I derived humour from most of Dante's cocky antics, as well. It was never meant to be taken seriously; he knew who he was and what he was, he had mixed feelings about that, but he made the best of it. That's how I see him.
Of course, everyone is going to interpret it differently, but that's what keeps things like this interesting.
I can't really nitpick his clothing, but the moment you mentioned the umbrella being used as a weapon, my mind instantly went to Roberta from Black Lagoon. :laugh: It would have been interesting to see something that isn't ordinarily a weapon being utilized as one, though.
Oh, you're right! I think I mixed up Johnny Bravo with Dante for a minute there XD. Bravo will always remain in my memory
Yeah, I just like originality in trailers and games. The whole 'look at me, you can't see my eyes underneath this hoodie' just seems so obnoxious to me. Besides, I see plenty of people like that in real life, and they're usually asses. Dante is not an ass, however (at least not completely), so it doesn't really suit him. Aside from that, I don't think 'Dante is an ass' is the kind of message NT/Capcom should want to send. I'm sure they didn't mean to, though. And I understand if not everyone shares my opinion that it's cliché, cheap and annoying, it's just that it's not a great trailer IMO - just like the other trailers weren't.
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ToCool74
"Fair" DmC Skeptic
regarding the topic's question, I doubt it would have changed much simply because it was not even close to being one of the main things people did not like about DmC when it was revealed.
It was all wrapped into the fact that,
1.It was a reboot, which as others have pointed out are rarely ever received well, especially those of a long running series that has been out over 10 years and has a loyal fanbase, a lot fans wanted a sequel rather than a reboot.
2.The redesign, yes that Dante redesign did rub a lot the wrong way since it was not the Dante they all grew up with through the years that they all know and love. having this new Dante and his new game come in made a lot of people feel that the era of the Dante they loved is over which will obviously rub a lot of the original Dante fans the wrong way since they don't want to see him be replaced.
So the bad PR was rolled up into other factors that ultimately divided and split the fanbase entirely, who started what with Tameen and NT then is completely irrelevant here since we are talking about whether or not if the bad PR was absent would this series have won over more of the naysayers and thus would have been better received financially and fanbase wise.
It was all wrapped into the fact that,
1.It was a reboot, which as others have pointed out are rarely ever received well, especially those of a long running series that has been out over 10 years and has a loyal fanbase, a lot fans wanted a sequel rather than a reboot.
2.The redesign, yes that Dante redesign did rub a lot the wrong way since it was not the Dante they all grew up with through the years that they all know and love. having this new Dante and his new game come in made a lot of people feel that the era of the Dante they loved is over which will obviously rub a lot of the original Dante fans the wrong way since they don't want to see him be replaced.
So the bad PR was rolled up into other factors that ultimately divided and split the fanbase entirely, who started what with Tameen and NT then is completely irrelevant here since we are talking about whether or not if the bad PR was absent would this series have won over more of the naysayers and thus would have been better received financially and fanbase wise.