How to bring the heavenly realm to DMC 5 : God and angels

[Freddy777]

Oh, and each companion angel has its own special secret weapon ability. Maybe, for Nero, his angel is able to stop time in a large area, allowing Nero to either escape or attack any time frozen enemies. And Yes, I realize this is similar to Quicksilver in DMC 3, but even with Quicksilver the enemies were still able to move.

 

[Freddy777]

Ok! This is a draft of my complete story that explains the origins of the DMC. It will have like 10% Christian concepts and 90% completely original storytelling with absolutely no heretical or pagan ideas in it, hopefully. If it contradicts something in the Genesis manga, then so be it. It is a working process.

In the beginning the Eternal God created one world and in it he created two unique beings, Angels and Mankind. Angels were created spirits that lived in the stars and had great strength and immense knowledge of the world, and Mankind were created physical beings that were weak and had little knowledge of the world. Both races were good and had free will.
One generation passed and the first descendants of Mankind began populating the world, but one man named Oren decided of his own free will to do evil. And everything he thought and did was pure evil nonstop. Thus, darkness was born in Oren and soon influenced his female partner Levana. Because of this pure darkness in their souls they lost their former good self and their physical form changed into a horrible creature. The Angels saw this and isolated them. Another generation passed and a new race of beings, created by the darkness in them, was born and they were called demons. Those who kept to the light and good were later called humans, for they were wise in keeping the light. Since Pure Light and Pure Darkness could not coexist in one world, the Angels divided the world in two. One called the Human World and the other called the Demon World.

But the darkness had already left its mark on the Human world which tempted the humans to do evil. Now, since the Humans still had good in them, they did not fall completely into the darkness like the demons. Yet, because of the corruption of Humanity, it also affected the whole of the Human world, and thus evil, suffering, pain, and death was born in the Human world. Because of this, the Angels had to leave their dwellings in the Human world and go to live in the presence of God, which is called Heaven, b/c even the stars began to die out.

But some Angels decided to follow in the footsteps of Oren and, by their own free will, fell into evil as well. Thus a new darkness was born, for these fallen angels were not directly influenced by Oren’s darkness. So, these fallen angels rebelled against God and the one who led this rebellion was the former “light-bearer”, and is now called the Devil. For the Devil wanted absolute power and take the throne of God. God’s angels defeated the fallen angels and threw them into the Demon world. Thus these fallen angels were called the Fallen ones.
Then there was a rebellion against the Devil, for there was a “fallen one” who wanted to rule the Demon world for himself. His name was Mundus. Because the Devil was too strong to defeat head on, Mundus and his followers ambushed the Devil and sealed away his powers somewhere in the Demon world and threw him into the Human world where he could not return to claim his powers back. Now the Devil tempts Humanity to commit evil and has been attempting to bring the complete destruction of Humanity through many antichrist-like figures throughout history: Ramases, Caligula, Nero, Genghis Khan, Napoleon, Hitler, etc.

The Angels could no longer allow the Demon world to contaminate the Human world further. So God sent the angel Nathaniel to meet with Sparda in the Human world by using a human vessel to interact with the physical world. Now Sparda was unique in that he was the only Fallen one that was forced into rebelling against God (b/c of his skill and power), and thus carried a small piece of light in him. Because Sparda already loves a human woman Eva, Nathaniel urges Sparda to help God seal the Demon world and defeat Mundus by trapping him for 2000 years. Sparda’s good ambition to protect humanity is awakened and agrees to do what Nathaniel says. After the Demon world is sealed, God sends angels in righteous human vessels to defeat any lower demons that still get through to the Human world.

In Eternity, God says that he knew all this would happen. Then an angel comes and says to God “If you knew all this would happen, why didn’t you stop the darkness in Oren from ever appearing or the darkness in the former “light bearer” from ever existing. God responds “My sons, you who are closer to me than Mankind, you who know me more than Mankind, cannot comprehend my infinite Mind and what I have planned. But, I will say this, would you truly have loved me if I made you obey and love me, or if you chose to obey and love me? The actions committed by the demons and fallen ones were not of my doing, but of their own free will. But my desire is to help those of the light and good. I cannot reveal myself to Humanity if the Pure Darkness threatens to consume them. Therefore, the Pure Darkness must be destroyed before I can ever lead them to the Light.” Another angel comes and says “What of the sons of Sparda?” God says “they are sons that carry the light of Humanity and the light of their father Sparda.”

 

[moseslmpg]

I'm not sure about the part on the top about it being 10% Christian ideas and 90% "original" storytelling, with "no pagan ideas." Both because of the naivete of it, and also because DMC has no qualms about using heretical or pagan imagery in the series.

Anyway, it doesn't seem so much to be part of DMC's background as something tacked on. Some of the event don't make sense, like why an angel would freely choose to do evil if they had so much knowledge of the world, and why humans wouldn't fall completely even though they were less intelligent and weaker. It is kind of confusing how the human does evil first, and then. the angels totally unrelated also do evil, and they are both eventually called demons? And if the darkness in Oren was isolated, how did it later give birth to other bad people?

It is alright, I suppose, but I don't see why it should be connected to DMC in any way. It does go against the Genesis account in the manga, and nothing in it seems to really explain anything in the actual canon, except maybe why Sparda awoke to justice. You need to keep working on it a little more.

Thanks moses for sending me your Achamoth framework idea. It's a nice idea, but I've heard these kinds of stories before from Gnosticism, Manicheism, and various other heretical beliefs concerning the nature of God and pagan beliefs.
I'd say it's a good start, but I can't see it ever harmonizing if one part of the self is fighting the other part of the self.

I am merely going off the internal evidence in the series. The alien God, the bleak prospects of reality, the obvious correlations between the Underworld and the Unconscious and Shadow. That you do not understand or agree with the ideas put forth by Gnostic sects is irrelevant, because the framework is only meant to apply to DMC and to expand upon it in a way that is not obtrusive to the established canon. With fiction, you would do better not to force the world into your own established view, but try to do the fictional world justice by speaking to its unique characteristics. DMC need not, and I would say, should not fall under the same Christian framework that most Western people operate under, if only because of its tiredness and normality.

As for the Self, it is an archetype of wholeness, and in a sense it is always in harmony. That the structuring ego strives against the more spiritual, imaginative aspects of the self, and that certain tendencies are repressed in the Unconscious is simply a fact of human experience. The framework is more Jungian than anything.

 

[Freddy777]

I'm sorry if you did't like my idea, but what's with the full on attack, man.

The percentage numbers isn't a real percentage. It is only meant to show what influence is on my idea and how much of it is on there.
And the "no heretical and pagan ideas" just means that i'm not going to use what has already been used in other games, books, and movies. That's why I was going for something original. DMC already has heretical and pagan ideas in it.

And having knowledge doesn't have anything to do with evil. Knowledge only means just that, knowledge. It just meant that the Angels knew how things worked in the universe, better than Mankind does. Knowledge or science has nothing to do with good and evil. It is what you do with that knowledge that matters, whether for good or evil.
Also, knowledge is not a deterrant to evil, wisdom is. That's is why human means wise man, b/c these humans were wise to keep to the light, even though evil had tainted them.
Also, it is because that Mankind had little knowledge that the man Oren fell first.
And Oren was not the only one isolated by the Angels. Remember that Oren had a female partner namded Levana, who was also influenced by Oren's pure darkness. And both of them were isolated.

And I knew it would contradict something in the Genesis manga, I already said it was a work-in progress, a draft.

And just as you are going off the internal evidence, so I am doing the same by proposing the possibility of God and angels in the game.
And I never tried to disprove your idea or criticize it so strongly like you did to mine, but I only gave my opinion and why. Your story idea was not original b/c it used heretical and pagan ideas that have been used so much and so frequently. That's it.
I could attack your story idea as well, but that is not my goal. My goal is to see how God and Angels can be integrated into the game.
And I'm am certainly NOT trying to push my "established" view. In fact, I am the only one in this thread that is actually trying to help others with their ideas by giving them info. and ideas.

I owe nothing to the fiction world. I thought we were here b/c we were fans of DMC and wanted to throw in our own ideas, not see which one is better. Your dislike of Christian ideas and western ideas means nothing to me. It is your opinion.
Besides, since DMC 5 has already been confirmed, they have already decicded to take a western approach.

But seriously moses, I'm not here to bicker or argue with you. As you see I have only been defending myself.

 

[moseslmpg]

I'm sorry if you did't like my idea, but what's with the full on attack, man.

I didn't attack your idea at all. I just pointed out the weaknesses in it. I don't know what you were looking for by posting it if not analysis of it.

The percentage numbers isn't a real percentage. It is only meant to show what influence is on my idea and how much of it is on there.
And the "no heretical and pagan ideas" just means that i'm not going to use what has already been used in other games, books, and movies. That's why I was going for something original. DMC already has heretical and pagan ideas in it.

Well, one must consider that there are no original ideas anyway. But you shouldn't purposefully be making a story that is opposite of DMC, which has so-called heretical ideas in it. Your story, if you want ti to be convincing and fit with the series, needs to contain some of the same themes and elements as the same series. From what I read, such an account isn't particularly "DMC" if you know what I mean. That is my opinion.

And having knowledge doesn't have anything to do with evil. Knowledge only means just that, knowledge. It just meant that the Angels knew how things worked in the universe, better than Mankind does. Knowledge or science has nothing to do with good and evil. It is what you do with that knowledge that matters, whether for good or evil.

Classically, knowledge and evil are intimately connected. Perhaps you think evil is arbitrary, but the philosophers believed that evil was only the result of ignorance. That is, if one knew the full truth of everything, committing evil would be a non-option. It would be like if you knew that hot things burned you, you wouldn't willfully stick your hand into a fire and hold it there, unless it was in furtherance of some greater good.

Also, knowledge is not a deterrant to evil, wisdom is. That's is why human means wise man, b/c these humans were wise to keep to the light, even though evil had tainted them.
Also, it is because that Mankind had little knowledge that the man Oren fell first.

Wisdom and knowledge were the same here I thought. You should untangle them if you're using them differnetly. And you just said that Oren fell because he had little knowledge, not little wisdom. In any case, if the humans were wise, then Oren should have never fallen.

And Oren was not the only one isolated by the Angels. Remember that Oren had a female partner namded Levana, who was also influenced by Oren's pure darkness. And both of them were isolated.

Then my point still stands. If they were isolated, then how did evil spring up again? Was it some kind of infection?

And I knew it would contradict something in the Genesis manga, I already said it was a work-in progress, a draft.

I see that, I think you should work on it further if you're trying to make it agree with the manga. Or if you aren't, then don't worry.

And just as you are going off the internal evidence, so I am doing the same by proposing the possibility of God and angels in the game.

Not exactly. I used internal evidence to create a framework for the series. You seem to merely be forcing things in where they don't fit. Nothing in the games alludes to the God and fallen angels and whatnot that you have in your story. Maybe you just need to develop the story further to connect the dots some more.

And I never tried to disprove your idea or criticize it so strongly like you did to mine, but I only gave my opinion and why. Your story idea was not original b/c it used heretical and pagan ideas that have been used so much and so frequently. That's it.

I didn't attack yours either. I'm pretty sure my story is original in its formulation, but of course all stories are derivative and draw on earlier works, whether their authors care to recognize that or not. I certainly do recognize it and I included those elements consciously, with the understanding that the arrangement is more important than the separate elements. Originality for its own sake is meaningless, alas.

I could attack your story idea as well, but that is not my goal. My goal is to see how God and Angels can be integrated into the game.
And I'm am certainly NOT trying to push my "established" view. In fact, I am the only one in this thread that is actually trying to help others with their ideas by giving them info. and ideas.

You're free to do whatever you want, of course. If you want to attack my idea, use the PMs. But the problem here is that your idea doesn't really integrate anything smoothly. It needs to be tweaked unless you want it to be analogous to my Jesus example, with him just popping out of nowhere. Really, what does your story mean? What are we meant to learn from it? What is its telos?

I owe nothing to the fiction world. I thought we were here b/c we were fans of DMC and wanted to throw in our own ideas, not see which one is better. Your dislike of Christian ideas and western ideas means nothing to me. It is your opinion.
Besides, since DMC 5 has already been confirmed, they have already decicded to take a western approach.

Of course you do, you owe everything to it, as a fan. If you aren't going to respect the fictional world of DMC, then you really have no business discussing it or suggesting ways to change it. As fans, we all have this inherent respect for DMC and that means keeping it coherent and intelligible. If you want to talk about putting things into DMC, you have to make sure you keep them in the style or theme or motifs of DMC, and not just make things up willy nilly. I'm not saying you did that, but your story isn't DMC enough to make it noteworthy IMO.

I have no dislike of Christian or western ideas though, and I have no idea where you got that. I don't think DMC should be forced into a stereotypically Christian framework, that's all. It constantly seems to resist it, so blame Kamiya and Kobayashi, not me.

But seriously moses, I'm not here to bicker or argue with you. As you see I have only been defending myself.

You don't have to reply, you know. I simply offered my opinion on your story, which you posted in a public forum no less. If you are expecting outright acceptance, you certainly won't find it from me.

 

[Freddy777]

Again, dude, with the constant detailed arguements.
You are right I should of been clearer by what I meant when I said knowledge, but i'm not going to enter into a philosophical debate with you.
And I though it would have been obvious, that Oren and Levana brought forth offspring that had the very image of their parents, which is pure darkness. Thus it passed on from generation to generation.
And as I said before, I dwell in the possibilities. I am not forcing anything into the DMC world. All I wanted to know that since it is possible(and I know you don't agree), how could one go about it.
And I guess my goal is to try to show that true power lies in Love and desiring to protect that loved one, since that is what the DMC story is showing in each game.
Also, I am not obligated to you or anyone else. Do you represent the whole of DMC fans? I am not going to follow to what you think DMC is and stands for. You should respect other peoples opinions and not tell them to stick to your version of the DMC world. I love DMC and no matter what route it takes I'll still be a fan of DMC.

 

[DreadnoughtDT]

Actually, I realized something. I have a Guardian Angel whose name is Aden... What does that mean? I'm pretty sure it doesn't have God in the meaning, but it's an angel's name...

 

[Freddy777]

Hey guys,sorry I took so long. i've been busy with school.

Anyways i'm happy to see that someone else has posted something other than moses. And its Dreadnought. Happy to here from you. But, it is sad what happened to moses. You reap what you sow, I guess.

Now, as to the meaning of your guardian angels name, Aden.

It is a variant of Adin, which is Hebrew in origin (Ezra 2:15; 8:6; Nehemiah 7:20; 10:16). It means: attractive, Handsome, pleasure given. It could refer to some quality or characteristic of your guardian angel.

Aden can also be a variant of Aiden, which comes from the Celts and is Gaelic and Irish in origin. It means: little fiery one.

It is not a rule that angels must have God in the meaning of their names. It just seems proper and apropriate that they do have God in the meaning of their names, since they are servants of God. But, as long as the meaning of the name has some connection to the angel, it is all good.

Look at my name for example. Freddy comes from Frederick and means peaceful ruler. I have always tried my best to be a peacemaker (b/c I'm no fighter, but I also never back down) and I am studying to have some leadership skills b/c I am a shy person (although I do like discussing things with people).

 

[DreadnoughtDT]

I have no idea what my name means, actually.

Aden's name describes him very well. Well, except the handsome thing. He looks rather... Well, non-angel like. My previous avatar before this one was a hand drawn picture I drew of him when I was 10.

 

[Freddy777]

Tell me your name and I could help you out on that.

And also, this might be a silly question, but did you mean an actual guardian angel or an idea of a guardian angel you had when you were 10?
Either way is cool.

I personally experienced the supernatural myself, not an angelic or heavenly one, but a demonic one. I won't go into the details, but I will say that as soon as I said the name of Jesus Christ, the demons that were attacking me left.

 

[DreadnoughtDT]

Tell me your name and I could help you out on that.

And also, this might be a silly question, but did you mean an actual guardian angel or an idea of a guardian angel you had when you were 10?
Either way is cool.

I personally experienced the supernatural myself, not an angelic or heavenly one, but a demonic one. I won't go into the details, but I will say that as soon as I said the name of Jesus Christ, the demons that were attacking me left.

My name's Nathan.

And Aden was real. I've had him with me since I was five...

 

[Freddy777]

Nathan means: Gift of God.
Its short for Nathaniel.

 

[DreadnoughtDT]

Nathan means: Gift of God.
Its short for Nathaniel.

Holy... Wasn't expecting that curveball.

Thanks. Sorry for going off topic. It's quiet with moses gone... In a good way.

 

[Meg]

Thanks. Sorry for going off topic. It's quiet with moses gone... In a good way.

*bangs pots and pans* :|

Annnnyway. So back on topic. I have an idea! Ok so Nero is Vergil's son and his mother is an angel and on his twenty first birthday the alcohol will mix with the good and evil in him and he'll explode into confetti. I like it. Ok so that was a joke, but I felt like saying it anyway.

 

[Freddy777]

I know what you mean.

Anyways, I'm curious to know what people thought about the music video thing. Wonder if it was helpful in some way or not.
And how about the gameplay solution to the angelic playable character problem?
Good or bad.
Any improvements or better ideas.
Oh, and the ideas I throw out. It's yours to use as you like. I don't claim none of them as mine. They're meant to help us all with our own ideas.

 

[Freddy777]

I know what you mean.

I was responding to Dreadnought. Just so there is no confusion.

 

[Meg]

^ Don't know if you noticed, but you can edit your own posts instead of double posting. Click on the handy dandy button in the bottom right of your post.

And I knew you meant DT. :lol: I just wanted to get this back on topic. As far as an angelic playable character. Hmm...I think their moves should be more....graceful than the quick brutal attacks the others use. If that makes sense.

 

[DreadnoughtDT]

Maybe like Vergil's, but kind of slower? Vergil had a kind of finesse to them that I think an angel could have, ironically enough.

Also... Since my guardian angel looked like a lizard-human, perhaps there could be a like a shapeshifting thing they could do, and transform into more angelic versions of demons? It would be a nice way to play as the demons.

 

[Meg]

Maybe like Vergil's, but kind of slower? Vergil had a kind of finesse to them that I think an angel could have, ironically enough.

Ehhh......yeah. Kinda. The speed of each attack should be slower. Making timing and precision more important than just blasting away. And with Vergil's finesse like you said.

 

[Freddy777]

The gameplay solution to the angelic playable character problem. I was actually refering to my gameplay solution at the very bottom of page 3 and at the very top of page 4.

Some people were responding saying they didn't want another playable character, as they thought there were too many already. So I came up with a solution and hopefully it satisfies. If not: improvements or better ideas anyone.

And sorry if I'm taking too much space. I'm recently new here, so thanks with help.