DmC: Eastern to Western

[VineBigBoss]

Yeah, he didn't do himself any favors by starting to talk back to his detractors, but I'm also not going to blame him. They made him out to be a pariah from word Go, and he probably just got tired of staying silent in the wake of their sh!t. And it's not like anything said by 2011 was going to change a lot of those detractor's minds, they were dead-set on ******* on Tameem, NT, and DmC.

At that point all Tameem is guilty of is fighting back and digging in when he should have just let it slide. Although he also did that a lot, playing it passively, especially to some really f#cked up detractors (like the "AntiTameem" guy on twitter who kept 'shopping Tam's face on gay dudes and just berating him like...everyday).

I still think people were way too oversensitive about the wig joke in DmC, though :/ You have to ignore the complete irony that comes at the end of the game when Dante gets his iconic hair color. People just can't take a joke, and need to lighten the f#ck up.

In any case, I stand by what I say; people went out of their way to make everything that was said sound way worse than it really was.

But yeah, you wanna really see the worst of the worst, David Jaffe, while he makes great games, is an unapologetic, sometimes standoffish guy who doesn't compromise. I can only imagine how things would have gone if Tameem had Jaffe's personality @_@

Peter Molyneux is probably my personal worst person in the game industry. For all three of his games (Fable) he pathologically lied to consumer's faces, promising things like being able to go to those mountains in the distance (you couldn't), and having revolutionary fully realized co-op (you couldn't go very far from the host player, and couldn't even play as your own character). He didn't just pull some PR fluff to make his game sound better, he literally promised functions in his products that they ultimately lacked. He also has his head shoved so firmly up his own butt that he can see his spleen, and he carries the aura of someone who actually thinks they're a genius :/

Anyway, I'm not going to debate Tameem and devs and whatnot anymore. I'm tired of repeating myself to people who ultimately aren't going to listen.

I agree with you when it comes to the standpoint that Tameem is a human like us and will react to people saying he looks like a fag or something like this, or completely disdain his work with with some little things to justify all the critics, but well, the same way we can justify Tameem's actions saying that "he is human, he have flaws", we can say it about that minority of fans that have no manners at all. But when it comes to a purely professional standpoint, Tameem helped screw up things and the result is what we see today, this is hard to deny too, if the fanbase really helped this game to be a market failure them Tameem give them the fuel to do so, or at least the excuses they were looking for to "completely destroy DmC and teach Capcom some lessons".

I think we should look forward to DMC future instead of keeping this DmC vs DMC debate forever, or discuss how Tameem is an asshole or how he is an opressed guy or how the fans are moronic basement-dwellers that overreact over a videogame and have no sense of maturity. When things are setted, either DmC or DMC fans will be leaving the franchise or sticking with what comes after, this will be the decision that we'll have to make in the end. If a DmC2 was release without signal of a DMC5 or a remake to some DMC game coming out, i'm leaving the franchise; the same way i think some people will be really dissapointed for not getting a DmC2 if a DMC5 or remake is announced and we have no sign of a DmC2 coming out. Capcom could even let the franchise dormant for a time before thinking about their next move, the future of this franchise as a whole remains a mystery by now until we get some information in the next years. E3 is pretty close by now, then we will have TGS in september i believe, so we have a lot of things to look forward and see if Capcom or Capcom/Ninja Theory will keep uns in the dark about DMC.

 

[EllDawn]

Justify a rip off by pointing to the source not being original.

Well isn't that just typical.

It's like this:
I say DmC has ripped off from They Live right?
You say "Well They Live has ripped off from something too"
And i think your point is "Because They Live ripped off from something too, then it nullifies DmC ripping off from They Live".

And my point is---> no it doesnt.


The only thing it does is just highlight if and what They Live ripped off.
Here is a analogy:

A man is told to make a choice to kill one of three people. If he doesn't he will not get money that he needs or wants. The people telling the man says "You see that guy over there? He is a murderer, u shud kill him".
So is right for the man to kill the murderer to get money?
And no, he wants the money just for sake of money, no bigger reason.

And my point: you cant say ripping off a something that is a rip off is right. People will perceive it as tolerable and ok, but in generally its not right.
And the thing ripping off a rip off may not even know that the source its ripping off from is a rip off.

e.g game A is ripping off game B independt of B having ripped off or being a rip off

And i dont think people who rip off from other peoples work think of ethics or morals.

Okay. Try coming up with an idea that's completely original. I bet you can't because, these days, everything is a rip-off. Everything has been done before. NT didn't just copy/paste the idea from They Live, they made some changes. In other words, They Live was an inspiration.

As I said, you make it sound like plagiarism. And I'm serious about you coming up with an idea that's original and has no similarities to something else, that can't be called a rip-off.

 

[CheeseKao]

Some people need to know the difference between a clone and an iteration/incarnation.

 

[Alittleacorn]

As I said, you make it sound like plagiarism. And I'm serious about you coming up with an idea that's original and has no similarities to something else, that can't be called a rip-off.

I have that problem with a book I'm writing right now. I'm trying to be original as possible, even down to the names, but it's really surprising how many things are similar to the idea that I'm doing, it's tough to be different. Games, movies, books, comics, there are so many ideas out there, so many people. Ideas are always going to overlap and be familar whether they're intentional or not.

But I can say from experience things can inspire you. Music for example, is a big inspiration for me when writing because it helps set the mood. For DmC, Ninja Theory had a good idea what they wanted to do and probably watched things like They Live and other things for inspiration.

For example if you want to write something on zombies, you might do lots of research on them and watch lots of zombie films and read zombie books from other authors to help feed your imagination and create something entirely new, because you're training your brain and collecting all this information. It's how the mind works, intentional or not, it's gathering data with everything you do and life experience too. You can even get inspiration from things that happen in your life or others.

The only way plagiarism exists is if you make no changes, and the characters and elements are nearly or exactly the same. For example, taking Harry Potter and just changing the names around, that's plagiarism.

 

[EllDawn]

I have that problem with a book I'm writing right now. I'm trying to be original as possible, even down to the names, but it's really surprising how many things are similar to the idea that I'm doing, it's tough to be different. Games, movies, books, comics, there are so many ideas out there, so many people. Ideas are always going to overlap and be familar whether they're intentional or not.

But I can say from experience things can inspire you. Music for example, is a big inspiration for me when writing because it helps set the mood. For DmC, Ninja Theory had a good idea what they wanted to do and probably watched things like They Live and other things for inspiration.

For example if you want to write something on zombies, you might do lots of research on them and watch lots of zombie films and read zombie books from other authors to help feed your imagination and create something entirely new, because you're training your brain and collecting all this information. It's how the mind works, intentional or not, it's gathering data with everything you do and life experience too.

The only way plagiarism exist is if you make no changes. The characters and elements are exactly the same down to name. For example, taking Harry Potter and just changing the names around, that's plagiarism.

I have the same problem when writing. Probably the main form of it being unique is the style of the writer. Otherwise everything shares ideas one way or another.

And good luck on your book. I hope it goes well.

 

[Kam]

I didn't get to go to ninja theory's panel at GDC because I was only there with an expo pass, but from what I understand ninja theory still thinks the only reason people don't like new dante is because of how he looks, and people are upset that they rebooted eastern cowboy dante into western punk dante (the truth is what they did is more like if they'd rebooted deadpool as the punisher, but wearing a red hat), and they had an entire segment of their talk focused on defending their visual redesign. Their PR needs serious help.

It's also worth noting they talked about capcom, and how they were the ones that stepped in and told ninja theory to scrap their current character designs and go for a completely western reboot. Before this, they'd wanted to design a dante that was "true to his classic appearance". This was what they thought was true to classic dante's appearance:

(he looks the same because his hair is white, guys)

I have some respect for ninja theory, but they seriously need to get over this obsession with white hair.

 

[IncarnatedDemon]

Okay. Try coming up with an idea that's completely original. I bet you can't because, these days, everything is a rip-off. Everything has been done before. NT didn't just copy/paste the idea from They Live, they made some changes. In other words, They Live was an inspiration.

As I said, you make it sound like plagiarism. And I'm serious about you coming up with an idea that's original and has no similarities to something else, that can't be called a rip-off.

You know, just because i am going on about how Ninja theory ripped off from They Live and Futurama and V for Vendetta, does not mean i am adressing originality. No...i am adressing rip offs.

They Live rip off a is a minor issue, and its up for discussion whether it's a rip off or inspiration.

Now... you want me to adress originality right?

I think being original is important because then your story or your creation will be unique when compared to other games, and it will positively stand out.
That is every creators ambition "Create a unique thing" - isnt it?

But creators may BY COINCEDENCE create something that isn't original when compared to creations made by others in the past, but that does not mean it's a bad thing. Because the creators having made something that out of coincedence is similar to other people's work is not their fault.
And one must not be to harsh on yourself, because you know "Hey i wasnt trying to copy anyone!".

And that's my thoughts on originality.

 

[Stylish Nero]

(he looks the same because his hair is white, guys)

I have some respect for ninja theory, but they seriously need to get over this obsession with white hair.

Jesus!!!

These all look bad.....as redesigns for Dante that is.

The one on the left looks nice as his own character but the one on the right looks lame....almost took it seriously until I saw the shoes....nothing is wrong with the shoes but it seems so mismatched compared to the rest of the outfit..which is heh...the top is nice but those pants look a bit ridiculous.

The middle one isn't bad but even if Capcom didn't want to completely change Dante looks they still would've sent them back to the drawing board.

Plus I've seen DMC4/3 Dante with black hair it isn't bad...it looks pretty nice so its not about the hair color but to me I don't like DmC Dante's hairstyle period for its a style everyone in my school and neighborhood (even my nephew and older brother) was doning so it was as generic as the bald male main character video game stereotype.

 

[IncarnatedDemon]

@Nero

Add the left character's head on to the right one - and you get the Witcher

 

[Stylish Nero]

@Nero

Add the left character's head on to the right one - and you get the Witcher

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm...maybe

 

[EllDawn]

You know, just because i am going on about how Ninja theory ripped off from They Live and Futurama and V for Vendetta, does not mean i am adressing originality. No...i am adressing rip offs.

They Live rip off a is a minor issue, and its up for discussion whether it's a rip off or inspiration.

Now... you want me to adress originality right?

I think being original is important because then your story or your creation will be unique when compared to other games, and it will positively stand out.
That is every creators ambition "Create a unique thing" - isnt it?

But creators may BY COINCEDENCE create something that isn't original when compared to creations made by others in the past, but that does not mean it's a bad thing. Because the creators having made something that out of coincedence is similar to other people's work is not their fault.
And one must not be to harsh on yourself, because you know "Hey i wasnt trying to copy anyone!".

And that's my thoughts on originality.

I'm trying to show you that it's unavoidable for anything to look like a rip-off. And it is closer to being an inspiration because they didn't follow it as close as you make it sound. They said it themselves that they took inspiration from multiple sources, and then combined them in an attempt to make something different. Yes, creators try to make something original, but it's not possible now. If they had made it exactly like their sources, then I would have a problem with it, but they didn't.

If you're still going to go off on it like it's such a crime, I'd suggest looking at everything else you enjoy and see just what similarities they each have with other things. Everything can be called a rip-off of something else because it's all been done before no matter what the person's intentions were. It's ridiculous to get so angry about it being in DmC when it's in everything else you're a fan of and you don't seem to be angry about that. This is pretty much what Acorn was getting at, too. Everything tends to share themes and ideas, so why only be upset about it being in DmC? The only true originality now is the writer's style, not the elements in their work. I don't know about you, but I pay more attention to how it's all put together, rather than the elements. They're ideas that have been used before, but the whole can still have it's own interesting points and entertainment no matter if it's considered a rip-off or not. And comparing it to murder is really overdoing it. Then again you did actually describe the show Dexter where a man murders other killers for what they've done. I wouldn't be surprised if you could call that a rip-off of something in reality, or in some show or movie.

 

[Kam]

I'm trying to show you that it's unavoidable for anything to look like a rip-off. And it is closer to being an inspiration because they didn't follow it as close as you make it sound. They said it themselves that they took inspiration from multiple sources, and then combined them in an attempt to make something different. Yes, creators try to make something original, but it's not possible now. If they had made it exactly like their sources, then I would have a problem with it, but they didn't.

If you're still going to go off on it like it's such a crime, I'd suggest looking at everything else you enjoy and see just what similarities they each have with other things. Everything can be called a rip-off of something else because it's all been done before no matter what the person's intentions were. It's ridiculous to get so angry about it being in DmC when it's in everything else you're a fan of and you don't seem to be angry about that. This is pretty much what Acorn was getting at, too. Everything tends to share themes and ideas, so why only be upset about it being in DmC? The only true originality now is the writer's style, not the elements in their work. I don't know about you, but I pay more attention to how it's all put together, rather than the elements. They're ideas that have been used before, but the whole can still have it's own interesting points and entertainment no matter if it's considered a rip-off or not. And comparing it to murder is really overdoing it. Then again you did actually describe the show Dexter where a man murders other killers for what they've done. I wouldn't be surprised if you could call that a rip-off of something in reality, or in some show or movie.

the hunger games and battle royale are both based on roman history and culture, but outside of the arena (which is the focus of the plot in battle royale, but makes up less than a quarter of the hunger games series) the two share almost no plot points.

There's a difference between basing your story on another idea, and copy/pasting plot points regardless of context. NT copied the base premise of They Live, which was okay. They also copied many details and plot points: banks run by demons, demons at strip clubs, demons running the media, demon fast food making people fat and stupid, all done exactly as presented in DmC, but 3 decades earlier in They Live.

Then there's the ending, which is where the shallow copy/paste becomes truly evident. In They Live, it made sense to reveal the aliens to the world. The aliens were physically not that tough, and controlled humans through subterfuge, so lifting that deception would lead humanity to a better place. In DmC, the demons are more than strong enough to destroy humanity through direct force, no trickery necessary. So when vergil combined the human world with the demon world, cutting out limbo as the median and allowing the two realms to interact, he's following the same basic story element from They Live, but the consequences couldn't be more different.

The aliens would be driven out without their tricks to protect them. The demons would tear humanity to shreds, and dante couldn't possible cover the entire planet to protect everybody. It was a completely ill suited end to the story, but they did it because they were copying the movie, and that's what they movie did.

 

[IncarnatedDemon]

I'm trying to show you that it's unavoidable for anything to look like a rip-off.

I am well aware of that, so you dont need to go further. But are you telling me that DmC having a "slurm queen" and a drink from this "slurm queen" is not a rip off from Futurama?

They said it themselves that they took inspiration from multiple sources, and then combined them in an attempt to make something different. Yes, creators try to make something original, but it's not possible now. If they had made it exactly like their sources, then I would have a problem with it, but they didn't.

A rip off is not a exact copy of the sources.

If you're still going to go off on it like it's such a crime, I'd suggest looking at everything else you enjoy and see just what similarities they each have with other things.

I have. DMC 3 Vergil seems like a rip off from Sessomaru from Inuyasha.

Everything can be called a rip-off of something else because it's all been done before no matter what the person's intentions were.

I disagree, i believe only the work that the person has experienced and ripped off is the thing that has been ripped off from. If there is a concept of a monster that appears in gameA, then a other game, gameB, rips off from it, and then later gameC ripps the concept off from gameB, then it has ripped off from gameB not gameA. Because the creators of gameC probably dont know if the thing they are ripping off a game that is a rip off or not, and they dont take concern to that. They just rip off it.

t's ridiculous to get so angry about it being in DmC when it's in everything else you're a fan of and you don't seem to be angry about that

If discussing something is equalivant of being angry then yes i am very angry.



I was really replying because of someones statement that i disagreed with.

Anyway i will no longer discuss the rip offs.

 

[EllDawn]

the hunger games and battle royale are both based on roman history and culture, but outside of the arena (which is the focus of the plot in battle royale, but makes up less than a quarter of the hunger games series) the two share almost no plot points.

There's a difference between basing your story on another idea, and copy/pasting plot points regardless of context. NT copied the base premise of They Live, which was okay. They also copied many details and plot points: banks run by demons, demons at strip clubs, demons running the media, demon fast food making people fat and stupid, all done exactly as presented in DmC, but 3 decades earlier in They Live.

Then there's the ending, which is where the shallow copy/paste becomes truly evident. In They Live, it made sense to reveal the aliens to the world. The aliens were physically not that tough, and controlled humans through subterfuge, so lifting that deception would lead humanity to a better place. In DmC, the demons are more than strong enough to destroy humanity through direct force, no trickery necessary. So when vergil combined the human world with the demon world, cutting out limbo as the median and allowing the two realms to interact, he's following the same basic story element from They Live, but the consequences couldn't be more different.

The aliens would be driven out without their tricks to protect them. The demons would tear humanity to shreds, and dante couldn't possible cover the entire planet to protect everybody. It was a completely ill suited end to the story, but they did it because they were copying the movie, and that's what they movie did.

Because of what's going on in the world, governments controlling their people, poisoning them with various chemicals and whatever else might be in the food, putting out foods that are more likely to make a person gain weight than lose it, it's hard to say that they took that from They Live. You could say they were mimicking current events and just using the idea of demons being responsible. There are conspiracy theorists that think aliens, and who knows what else, are responsible for what's going on. Just as there are some that think it's devil worshipers. The game has a lot of parallels in today's world that were also shown in past films which makes it difficult to say it was all taken from They Live. Even the idea of trying to reveal people for what they really are is happening, no matter the consequences. If you want to go by some articles, it's even killing people.

After watching They Live today, yeah I saw a lot of things that were the same, but I also saw how much it's like current situations so I can't say for certain that they took it all from the movie. It's too similar to the problems with banks, the government, food companies, what's going on with Monsanto and everything else that people have theorized is trying to take over the world.

 

[Chancey289]

Because of what's going on in the world, governments controlling their people, poisoning them with various chemicals and whatever else might be in the food, putting out foods that are more likely to make a person gain weight than lose it, it's hard to say that they took that from They Live. You could say they were mimicking current events and just using the idea of demons being responsible. There are conspiracy theorists that think aliens, and who knows what else, are responsible for what's going on. Just as there are some that think it's devil worshipers. The game has a lot of parallels in today's world that were also shown in past films which makes it difficult to say it was all taken from They Live. Even the idea of trying to reveal people for what they really are is happening, no matter the consequences. If you want to go by some articles, it's even killing people.

After watching They Live today, yeah I saw a lot of things that were the same, but I also saw how much it's like current situations so I can't say for certain that they took it all from the movie. It's too similar to the problems with banks, the government, food companies, what's going on with Monsanto and everything else that people have theorized is trying to take over the world.

It's because they are social satires.

By the way did you enjoy They Live? It's pretty stupid but, still kinda fun. It has the best one liner in movie history. A couple of my favorite John Carpenter films are probably The Thing and what's pictured in my profile pic though. They Live is definitely not his best.

 

[EllDawn]

It's because they are social satires.

By the way did you enjoy They Live? It's pretty stupid but, still kinda fun. It has the best one liner in movie history. A couple of my favorite John Carpenter films are probably The Thing and what's pictured in my profile pic though. They Live is definitely not his best.

Yeah, they are.

I did enjoy it, actually. I didn't know Roddy Piper was in it until my brother told me before I started the movie. I saw him once on WWF, but still remembered him. I liked how they ended it with something to laugh at.

I'm watching The Thing now, too. I'm not very far in it, but it was nice to see Kurt Russel is in it. My favorite JC film has to be Village of the Damned. I've loved that since I was a kid.

 

[Chancey289]

Yeah, they are.

I did enjoy it, actually. I didn't know Roddy Piper was in it until my brother told me before I started the movie. I saw him once on WWF, but still remembered him. I liked how they ended it with something to laugh at.

I'm watching The Thing now, too. I'm not very far in it, but it was nice to see Kurt Russel is in it. My favorite JC film has to be Village of the Damned. I've loved that since I was a kid.

Ah yes, I remember Village of The Damned. Beware the children. Speaking of Christopher Reeve I was actually just watching Superman II. The Thing is my favorite JC film. I love that movie and it holds up pretty well even to this day. I was re-watching it myself not too long ago. I haven't seen the remake yet though. I should check it out eventually.

 

[Stylish Nero]

It's because they are social satires.

By the way did you enjoy They Live? It's pretty stupid but, still kinda fun. It has the best one liner in movie history. A couple of my favorite John Carpenter films are probably The Thing and what's pictured in my profile pic though. They Live is definitely not his best.

Didn't you say the exact same thing before?

 

[EllDawn]

Ah yes, I remember Village of The Damned. Beware the children. Speaking of Christopher Reeve I was actually just watching Superman II. The Thing is my favorite JC film. I love that movie and it holds up pretty well even to this day. I was re-watching it myself not too long ago. I haven't seen the remake yet though. I should check it out eventually.

Children can be creepy, how some will just sit there and stare. Village of the Damned just made my dislike for kids worse.

I never did get into the Superman films. I mostly remember him from Village of the Damned and Somewhere in Time. I might have seen him in some other movies, but it was too long ago.

I just saw a scene in this movie that got to me. When the alien creature was in with the dogs and attacks one. I hate it when they have a scene like. It was just as hard to watch in Alien.

 

[CheeseKao]

Children can be creepy

Does chucky count as a child?