DmC: Eastern to Western

[TWOxACROSS]

Having the same voice actors doesn't mean a rip-off,that's what I was trying to point out.:/

Oh no, of course not. I just find that a pretty funny coincidence either way

I wonder what came first; the realization that it was the same VAs, or the claims of it ripping off Bleach...?

 

[mrrandomlulz]

I don't quite know what the full comparison was with Bleach and DMC4, although I did find it quite ironic that Nero and Kyrie and the same voice actors as Ichigo and Orihime

I think DMC4 is just way more of a good ol' cliche' skeletal plot, really, but then...all of the DMC plots are >.<

To be honest, both DMC series rip off something

DMC4 ripped off Bleach
DmC ripped off They Live

 

[IncarnatedDemon]

It had nothing to do with "Western is better," mang. It was that Japan's idea of Western was still very much shaped by their much more stylized sensibilities, and that stylized sensibilities in general were not helpful to getting that more down-to-earth and grittier story to form.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

To be honest, both DMC series rip off something

DMC4 ripped off Bleach
DmC ripped off They Live

Still not sure how DMC4 ripped off Bleach, but...that's mostly because I don't know...or really care >_<

And yes, yes, yes. We all know Tameem liked the propaganda element used in They Live, but honestly, it didn't really "rip off" anything else really unique, and the hidden propaganda element is just that...one element. I think a lot of people who say "it ripped off They Live" haven't really seen the actual full movie, and are just operating on hearsay, without really knowing how different DmC actually is from They Live. Even the one element they used was done differently, because no normal person can see Limbo's subliminal messages

And hey, that element is friggin' cool! And DmC used it to great effect, just as They Live did.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

You're gonna have to use your words...

 

[IncarnatedDemon]

I think the whole idea of easterns only thinking of style is bs. And even DMC 1 proves that wrong. But Tameem likes to brag about how the west "puts more meaning" behind their creations.


White hair: Japanese folklore (outside game), inside: genetics
Red coat: cool and flashy colour
Amulet: Given to him by his mother, a sentimental item
Sword: Given to him by his father
Guns: Given to him by Nell Goldstein

Yet...Tameem goes on a speech as if DMC Dante's design choices was without meaning:

"Japanese style ethos does tend to involve make characters look cool for the sake of looking cool, adding odd accessories, crazy hairstyles and colour, cowboy boots and so on simply because they look cool.
We in the West tend to be more functional adding things that have meaning and being able to explain that meaning. Why does Dante have white hair? I want to make a little story around that and explain it. And so on for the rest of his design choices."

Also...maybe Dante has white hair because he became super demon? // Sarcasm

 

[TWOxACROSS]

I think the whole idea of easterns only thinking of style is bs. And even DMC 1 proves that wrong. But Tameem likes to brag about how the west "puts more meaning" behind their creations.


White hair: Japanese folklore (outside game), inside: genetics
Red coat: cool and flashy colour
Amulet: Given to him by his mother, a sentimental item
Sword: Given to him by his father
Guns: Given to him by Nell Goldstein

Yet...Tameem goes on a speech as if DMC Dante's design choices was without meaning:

"Japanese style ethos does tend to involve make characters look cool for the sake of looking cool, adding odd accessories, crazy hairstyles and colour, cowboy boots and so on simply because they look cool.
We in the West tend to be more functional adding things that have meaning and being able to explain that meaning. Why does Dante have white hair? I want to make a little story around that and explain it. And so on for the rest of his design choices."

I'd beg to differ, in most cases. It's sometimes really easy to see the thought-process of some designers, where they have a specific idea in mind, and want to make something look cool, and then try to figure out out to make it fit with the world. Literally coming up with the cool design first, and then trying to justify it.

I should know, I've done it in the past, and still do it when crafting things for my stories. I've just gotten a lot better at making compromise between design and reason.

A bigger thing to consider though is that it's not a matter of something cool not have a reason to its design, it's that sometimes the reason for the design is rather flimsy, or not really the entire focus. Sometimes the reasons we are given are just supposed to be a statement to move things along. Even a lot of the stuff you mentioned from DMC1 weren't things that were actually known very well, like E&I coming from Nell. ".45 Art Warks" was something that was written on the pistols when the weapons were first being designed all the way back when DMC was supposed to be Resident Evil 4. Nell Goldstein came after the game's release, as a justification for why the inscription was even there. And then ironically, the rest of the series happens and ends up calling the novel into question :/

Plus, most of what you described for DMC1's stuff are some of the most generic and troperiffic ideas out there Especially inheriting things like weapons from warrior-fathers and mystical accouterments from a caring mother :x

It's not like Tameem is wrong, either. A lot of people do that. Japan does love its flashiness, but then so do multitude of other types of people and content creators. I say "Japan" as a catch-all, but it's also because that's what they're known for. The anime that made anime popular in the west was sh!t like Dragon Ball and Sailor Moon, Tekkaman Blade and Ronin Warriors (things I watched at 5am!), they were all very flashy, and had a metric f#ck-ton of flair. It's how I came to know of the WOOSHY BACKGROUND for intense moments or when I got really lazy and didn't want draw backgrounds!

Regrettably, it makes it sound a very broad generalization, but it's really not. There are plenty of people who create with very different sensibilities in mind, but overall, the point to be made here is that Capcom's American-inspired classic Dante was still way too flamboyant by regular ol' Western standards, which comes right back around to the point of Tameem's remark of "Dante being laughed out of bars" that got everyone's panties all balled up. Dante wasn't an everyman, and it was probably because the concept of making DMC all about being cool. Being cool was the greater point to make, Dante was a bitchin' 80s hero call-back, and he rocked out with his cock out. We didn't really care that he was decked out in full emblazoned red (seriously, who wears RED PANTS in 2001?), because he had two guns, a giant sword, and he f#cked up demons to electro-goth-rock.

It's not that "Easterns only think about style" it's just that they embrace style so much easier in entertainment they create, because it offers a greater draw, a greater escape. Then, Capcom wanted something more down-to-earth, and less flamboyant.

Also - I don't quite get how your Anarchy Reigns video plays into all this >.>

 

[V's patron]

I feel a large part of the problem with the new look is fans saw it as unnecessary as to why Devil May Cry needs to be "realistic" or "westernized" and they saw it as a sign of DMC seeing losing part of what made it unique and they see it as becoming generic.

A large part of the problem was this slide show is that it has the feel of being "too little to late" because it would have been better to have shown this when the game was being introduced rather than 3 or so years later.

I think the problem with Capcom/NT's pr presentation is that they dont really do a good job of explaining themselves because I feel Alittleacorn and TWOxACROSS did a better job explaining what they were trying to do than they did.

 

[mrrandomlulz]

Still not sure how DMC4 ripped off Bleach, but...that's mostly because I don't know...or really care >_<

And yes, yes, yes. We all know Tameem liked the propaganda element used in They Live, but honestly, it didn't really "rip off" anything else really unique, and the hidden propaganda element is just that...one element. I think a lot of people who say "it ripped off They Live" haven't really seen the actual full movie, and are just operating on hearsay, without really knowing how different DmC actually is from They Live. Even the one element they used was done differently, because no normal person can see Limbo's subliminal messages

And hey, that element is friggin' cool! And DmC used it to great effect, just as They Live did.

I've seen the full movie.

But couldn't the same thing be said about DMC3 and Inuyasha

 

[TWOxACROSS]

I think the problem with Capcom/NT's pr presentation is that they dont really do a good job of explaining themselves because I feel Alittleacorn and TWOxACROSS did a better job explaining what they were trying to do than they did.

If only I got paid for it.

Oh wait, according to people on the internet, I must be if I like DmC.

 

[V's patron]

Also - I don't quite get how your Anarchy Reigns video plays into all this >.>

i think his video was an attempt at showing that Easterners aren't all about style over substance and they can show moments that are down to earth and "gritty".

Based on the context of the video, the character Jack lost his daughter in a kidnapping only to find out police killed her (albeit unitentionally) and there is a percieved cover up which is a little down to earth or realistic moment for me.

 

[IncarnatedDemon]

So what if what i described is tropes? Woudnt you as a human being be a trope since there is so many of your kind in the world? What difference does it make if its a trope or not?

And Tameem is wrong in case of DMC:

The only difference between original Dante and NT Dante is that NT Dante is meant to be a representation of british youth, where as original Dante is just a character meant to represent noone in real life.

It doesnt have to do with NT Dante being more meaningful at all.

Why is there a union jack on NT Dante's jacket?
Why does he wear a coat?
Why does he eat pizza?
Why does he use guns?
Why does his hair turn white when going into devil trigger?
Why does sword appear on his back out of nowhere?


Union jack: Because of british studio - but it has nothing to do with the story or the character itself.
Jacket: Because original Dante wears a coat
Food: because original Dante eats pizza
Guns: because original Dante had two guns with same name
Hair: Because white hair means he has awakened demon power. But that doesnt make it any more meaningful. The devil trigger transformation in DMC hadthe same thing as DmC with thehair.




So no, hes wrong about DMC. He just used the opportunity to brag about his western roots. He comesoffas pretty ethnocentric. Going on about how Bayonetta is to japanesy.

 

[Jak]

taneem suffers from "michael bay syndrome". he has a smart thought in his head but when he opens his mouth he makes himself look 1000 times stupider. i do get where he was going with his statement. but he couldn't intelligently state it

 

[TWOxACROSS]

I've seen the full movie.

But couldn't the same thing be said about DMC3 and Inuyasha

that's the rub, isn't it. People complain way too much when something uses an element from something else. Especially when it's a vague plot point like "brothers at odds," or silly things like red vs blue which are just opposing colors and yadda yadda yadda.

"Ripped off" is a term that I think is thrown around way too loosely, and specifically to try to make something look bad :/ For something rip off something else, they need to be pretty damn close to one another in style and/or execution, plot-points, characters, concepts.

If I started writing a story that was about interdimensional aliens that attack Earth from the sea, so the world's superpower countries build giant robots piloted by two people to fight them - then I've probably ripped off Pacific Rim. However, even from that description there's a lot of things that could make it starkly different, but...still...

I'd say a rip-off is like taking a picture of Sonic, recoloring him orange, adding a sombrero, and then calling him your own original character "Rapido." Or of course..."Blooooooooooonic."

 

[IncarnatedDemon]

that's the rub, isn't it. People complain way too much when something uses an element from something else. Especially when it's a vague plot point like "brothers at odds," or silly things like red vs blue which are just opposing colors and yadda yadda yadda.

"Ripped off" is a term that I think is thrown around way too loosely, and specifically to try to make something look bad :/ For something rip off something else, they need to be pretty damn close to one another in style and/or execution, plot-points, characters, concepts.

If I started writing a story that was about interdimensional aliens that attack Earth from the sea, so the world's superpower countries build giant robots piloted by two people to fight them - then I've probably ripped off Pacific Rim. However, even from that description there's a lot of things that could make it starkly different, but...still...

I'd say a rip-off is like taking a picture of Sonic, recoloring him orange, adding a sombrero, and then calling him your own original character "Rapido." Or of course..."Blooooooooooonic."

Your definition of rip off is incorrect. Rip off is: if you take a idea from a game and add it to your own game.

THAT IS a rip off:

When someone takes ALOT OF ideas from a source, then people will say "Omg look at that rip off" meaning "That is obviously stolen from insert_Source"


ripping off ideas isnt a good thing. It says alot about you as a creator.
Rip offs can happen by pure coincedence i.e you make a game that is VERY similar to established game and you havent played that established game at all or know of it

It can happen subconciously - your subconcious tells you "Hey use this idea from Dragon ball z - hey use this idea, hey use this idea". Because you may perceive something from DBZ as cool and thus your subconcious kicks in and tells you.


Rip offs can happen intentionally (person aware of it): (Nick simmons, Bleach rip off).


If ripping off isnt a bad thing, then why do people mind it and sue eachother when someone rips off many ideas from their work?
Oh thats right...because ripping off isnt a good thing.


Its just that people tolerate when rip offs are small in scale or is differently implemented. Inuyasha + DMC 3

They Live and DmC
V and DmC


You cant make a rip off invalid by saying "Well They Live isnt only one who used hidden messages", a rip off will remain a rip off, the distinction being that the rip off is ripped from They Live and not from other sources independt of how unoriginal They Live may be when compared to other work with similar themes.

WhenAge of Guns game ripped a idea from DmC trailer, many people including Ninja theory made a remark about it.

So how is ripping off a idea from a work a good thing under circumstances that your aware of it? And Tameem WAS aware of taking the idea of hidden message from They Live.

+ Even the "V" in Vergil's mobil and Vergil's role in DmC is taken from V for Vendetta.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

So what if what i described is tropes? Woudnt you as a human being be a trope since there is so many of your kind in the world? What difference does it make if its a trope or not?

I think "being human" is exempt from being regarded as a trope, so that's a rather flimsy argument :x

Thhhhbbbbbpppbppbpppbpbpbpbpbt~

Dude, you're contention isn't one that anyone is really challenging here. There's no debate on whether one Dante is better conceptually designed than another, it's just a matter of how legitimately occidental the character actually ended up being. Classic Dante...just didn't...because Capcom still exemplified making Dante eye-catching by design, to look cool.

You're fighting a battle here that no one else is really enlisted in.

 

[IncarnatedDemon]

I think "being human" is exempt from being regarded as a trope, so that's a rather flimsy argument :x

I guess, but its not much different from pointing out a trope in a fictional perspective.
Both of them point out a pattern or existence of something.

"There exists alot of damsels in video games"

"There exists alot of humans on planet earth"

 

[Chancey289]

Something tells me most of the people who pull out the They Live comparison probably never seen They Live. John Carpenter's best is The Thing anyway. Also my profile pic shows another one I enjoy from him quite a bit lol.

They Live is fun but it is pretty silly and just stupid at times. It does have the best one liner in movie history though.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Blllllllaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah

It really varies from circumstance to circumstance, how important something is the the overall plot and whatnot.

If something exists as a trope, as in a widely known and used/accepted concept, it's not something that can be claimed for one thing ripping off another. What matters is how broad the concept is, and how intricately important it is to the content as a whole.

Dante's Inferno ripped off God of War pretty hard, but it's an acceptable thing because it's a style of gameplay, a concept. Even when you really get into it, how much of Dante's Inferno is really from exclusively God of War? The QTEs to kill stunned enemies, and...maybe the Right Stick for dodging. Light and Heavy Attacks, dial-a-combo...those are old hat, design philosophies as old now to action games as jumping was to platformers.

Nick Simmons didn't rip-off Bleach, he plagiarized it. He took exact panels of artwork, modified them ever so slightly, and claimed they were his own it was an homage :/ Plagiarism is what is being cited when people start suing each other. When it's clear and cut points that something was clearly taken from someone else's material.

However, do you know how many filed plagiarism cases are found to be too flimsy to stand up in court? A fair amount actually. Even the most recent case of the writer of Link trying to sue Assassin's Creed (experiencing an ancestor's life with some hi-tech) ended in AC's favor, because the concepts, while slightly similar in most cases, were ultimately way too different in execution and result. A lot of plagiarism cases end up being some dude trying to draw similarities to their own ideas with something established and well-known that aren't really there.

I honestly couldn't tell you how "ripping off" something is okay in general, because I would need a specific example to determine it, and it would only qualify for that example. Most of the time, yes, someone did take an idea from someone else, but it ends up being way more about what they do with that idea that's more important, and the attitude you have about that idea.

Dmc took an idea from They Live, so what? They used it to pretty great effect, and it's not like Tameem is being a little sh!t about it, he said flat-out before the game released that he was inspired by They Live's use of subliminal messages and propaganda, and that's where he got the idea for Limbo's messages. DMC itself took a lot of ideas/themes from the Divine Comedy.

 

[Stylish Nero]

i think his video was an attempt at showing that Easterners aren't all about style over substance and they can show moments that are down to earth and "gritty".

Based on the context of the video, the character Jack lost his daughter in a kidnapping only to find out police killed her (albeit unitentionally) and there is a percieved cover up which is a little down to earth or realistic moment for me.

Yet the same game can have over the top flashy action sequences such as.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CU0BTYRgbQo

Or comedic ones such as: