Dante’s Trailer

[D.Dark]

Swords and guns should just have all their moves available in their default combos

True. Especially considering they already managed to fit the Ariel swordmaster moves for Nero. And the stick flick attack is also missing for Dante. They have enough places to integrate swordmaster into the main attack button.

And honestly, there is no excuse for the lack of inclusion of gunslinger moves.

But, no. We have to stick with the convoluted system that ask's you to process multiple decisions at once and then execute them within a minuscule window. You get used to it time, as in you will just pre-learn a lot of the input and then just execute. Feels redundant.

 

[Kurisu]

Didn't you see the gameplay demo? His name is Cavaliere Angelo and it's the boss that drops you the bike weapon. The reason why Dante's already has the bike when fighting him in the demo is because the build they used already had it unlocked for demonstration purposes.

I did, but some friends said it's not the first time a demon changes it's name to Angelo, plus Dante said something about "knowing all of his moves." Again, I don't know what to think about it.

 

[Foxtrot94]

plus Dante said something about "knowing all of his moves."

Probably referring to the fact that Trish is what powers him so he knows he's got electric attacks.

 

[ROCKMAN X]

This isn't true at all. In DMC3 some enemies and missions were way easier depending on what style you were using for them,

Yes but my point was that Style Switching wasn't compulsory for playing the game in 3. In 4, you must switch to between styles. Especially swordmaster&trickster.

Anyway, that's kind of a weak argument given that it's judging Dante by a comparison to the convenience of Nero.

Why is it a weak argument? I want Dante to be just as mobile as Nero is and trickster allows him to be, only problem is.... "Drum rolls" you must stop whatever you're doing with swordmaster or gunslinger or RoyalGuard to access it. Forward momentum is the most fundamental thing to any game and never have i experienced a more baffling design choice than Style Switching which goes against it.

when in reality Dante didn't have them at all before Swordmaster.

What does that mean? I just want the moves of swordmasters minus the style system.

Dante isn't centered around Rebellion in the same way Nero is Red Queen

WTF is that even supposed to mean? Nero has one sword and dante has multiple weapons. My problem is that those weapons have their moves shifted to swordmaster just for THE SAKE OF IT. I wouldn't have much of a problem with styles if they actually gave me an extensive moveset for all the weapons from the get go. Red Queen and Rebellion both are just weapons but one of them has its moveset cut off for no good reason other than following the tradition.

 

[Veloran]

You can... Either with Vergil or with Lady/Trish. The Special Edition adds new characters - Vergil being able to play the entire campaign, and Lady/Trish sharing the campaign similarly to Nero/Dante.

My experience amounts to one playthrough in the original, and a few attempts to play with him in SE. Pretty great metric if I can't even begin a playthrough with him.

No, that's a really poor place from which to be making any claims. You barely tried it and now you're saying it's a bad system because you didn't like it.

Yes but my point was that Style Switching wasn't compulsory for playing the game in 3. In 4, you must switch to between styles. Especially swordmaster&trickster.

It was the opposite of compulsory in 3. In that it didn't exist whatsoever, and you just had to pick a style at the start of a level and stick with it's benefits and drawbacks the entire time unless you ran across a statue. It's no worse to just pick one style in 4 and stick with it, in fact it's even easier.

Is there some kind of mental tick that makes people go crazy if they have options available that they aren't using? Because to define switching as compulsory, that's not a behavior incited by the game itself.

I want Dante to be just as mobile as Nero is and trickster allows him to be,

Dante can be as/more mobile than Nero, have more melee moves than Nero, have more gun moves than Nero, and have a perfect defense tool that Nero doesn't have, on top of having many more guns and melee weapons than he does. He just can't do all of that at exactly the same time. It's a perfectly fair arraignment, even favorable actually, given that for the price of a higher execution floor Dante completely outclasses Nero in every regard.

What does that mean?

It means that the style system gave him those moves to begin with. He just plain didn't have them before. Even if you were to give him those moves in the same way Nero has similar moves, all that would mean is that he would get more style moves that do similar or different things, because not utilizing the style system is ultimately a waste of capability.

WTF is that even supposed to mean?

Nero has one sword and dante has multiple weapons.

Exactly. Nero has one sword, while Dante in 4 already has more moves with his three weapons in 4 baseline even without Swordmaster.

Now in 5, all of his (Apparently four) weapons even have two modes. Dante by default, without Swordmaster, will have way, way more moves than Nero and his Red Queen.

 

[DarkSlayer54]

No, that's a really poor place from which to be making any claims. You barely tried it and now you're saying it's a bad system because you didn't like it.

I never said it was a bad system. I said it had a painful learning curve. Dante's campaign is plenty enough to gauge the learning curve of the style system... If 5-8 hours isn't enough for it, then that should speak for itself.

 

[Foxtrot94]

Now in 5, all of his (Apparently four) weapons even have two modes. Dante by default, without Swordmaster, will have way, way more moves than Nero and his Red Queen.

Actually I believe that those alternate modes are tied to Swordmaster. In the gameplay, whenever he does kicks with Balrog he's got Swordmaster on, and same thing when he uses bike mode for Cavaliere. I think Blow Mode for Balrog and saw mode for the bike are tied to the regular attack button, and Kick Mode and bike mode are tied to the Style button.

 

[Stylish Nero]

Actually I believe that those alternate modes are tied to Swordmaster. In the gameplay, whenever he does kicks with Balrog he's got Swordmaster on, and same thing when he uses bike mode for Cavaliere. I think Blow Mode for Balrog and saw mode for the bike are tied to the regular attack button, and Kick Mode and bike mode are tied to the Style button.

At 3:03 you can see Dante change modes while still in Trickster.

If it isn't the Style Button via SwordMaster I hope changing stances isn't some complex input but it seems seemless.

 

[Veloran]

I said it had a painful learning curve.

Maybe. But even IGN managed to do it in their gameplay video.

Actually I believe that those alternate modes are tied to Swordmaster. In the gameplay, whenever he does kicks with Balrog he's got Swordmaster on, and same thing when he uses bike mode for Cavaliere. I think Blow Mode for Balrog and saw mode for the bike are tied to the regular attack button, and Kick Mode and bike mode are tied to the Style button.

Watching the footage I also thought that was the case, but there are a few moments in the gameplay videos where Dante uses both blow mode and kick mode while not in Swordmaster. IGN does it during the boss fight, Gamespot does it during the fight in the circular room, and it happens a couple of times on the Capcom stream. In addition, the indicator for swapping your weapons always shows what mode Balrog is in regardless of what style you're in. Not sure about Cavalier though.

 

[Foxtrot94]

At 3:03 you can see Dante change modes while still in Trickster.

Oh that's a video I hadn't seen. Nice find.

I hope changing stances isn't some complex input but it seems seemless.

LOL, if IGN folks could do it seemlessly...

 

[Stylish Nero]

Maybe. But even IGN managed to do it in their gameplay video.


Watching the footage I also thought that was the case, but there are a few moments in the gameplay videos where Dante uses both blow mode and kick mode while not in Swordmaster. IGN does it during the boss fight, Gamespot does it during the fight in the circular room, and it happens a couple of times on the Capcom stream. In addition, the indicator for swapping your weapons always shows what mode Balrog is in regardless of what style you're in. Not sure about Cavalier though.

While their videos weren't as impressive as IGN's the guys at Gamespot gave their impressions and they had more fun with Dante (a character for more advanced players) over Nero (a character for beginners). The guy said after a couple sessions he was getting the hang of Dante.

 

[Stylish Nero]

Just stole these from Resetera

Balrog truly is an amazing weapon. Apparently when its fully charged or lit up a lot of its moves has launching properties.

 

[Railazel]

I guess while we're on the subject of style switching, it has to be noted that Dante was very low in accessibility in comparison to the rest of the roster. He was the only one that, on console, required a different grip on the control or using different control schemes. PC players actually had it easier than their console brethren because they had the ability to make their own training mode and keyboards are just the best controllers out there. Basically, while it was possible to master Dante, it wouldn't come without an immense amount of dedication and frustration or just having the right equipment.

Style Switching was a big obstacle for console players since the system wasn't all that efficient. Keep in mind, this made Dante a really great challenge of a character and some awesome tech was formed from it but it was really difficult and sometimes just outright unfun to try to achieve a high level of mastery with him because Style Switching was just... Uncomfortable (not to mention that between six weapons and 5 styles, Dante was just a mess of decision-making that made playing him improvisationally a damn chore but he was a dream if you choreograph your combos).

With that being said, I'm disappointed that they stuck with the same formula for styles. Not because of switching but because I want to see unique styles again. Bringing back Doppelganger and Quicksilver would be nice or something entirely new.

 

[Stylish Nero]

I guess while we're on the subject of style switching, it has to be noted that Dante was very low in accessibility in comparison to the rest of the roster. He was the only one that, on console, required a different grip on the control or using different control schemes. PC players actually had it easier than their console brethren because they had the ability to make their own training mode and keyboards are just the best controllers out there. Basically, while it was possible to master Dante, it wouldn't come without an immense amount of dedication and frustration or just having the right equipment.

Style Switching was a big obstacle for console players since the system wasn't all that efficient. Keep in mind, this made Dante a really great challenge of a character and some awesome tech was formed from it but it was really difficult and sometimes just outright unfun to try to achieve a high level of mastery with him because Style Switching was just... Uncomfortable (not to mention that between six weapons and 5 styles, Dante was just a mess of decision-making that made playing him improvisationally a damn chore but he was a dream if you choreograph your combos).

With that being said, I'm disappointed that they stuck with the same formula for styles. Not because of switching but because I want to see unique styles again. Bringing back Doppelganger and Quicksilver would be nice or something entirely new.

It's not like DMC5 has a training mode now....

Also most advanced DMC players I know use controllers. I don't know about anyone who use Mouse and Keyboard.

Also you really don't need the Claw method (not every advanced player does it like Vash) and I guess for advanced play where you're constantly changing weapons and styles it helps but if you want to just perform decent combos and have fun you get by fine just by having quick enough reflexes. Besides the Claw is the better method of play for a lot of other games not just DMC.

Competitive Gears and Melee players do it.

 

[Railazel]

It's not like DMC5 has a training mode now....

What does that have to do with the fact that DMC 4 didn't have one?

Also you really don't need the Claw method (not every advanced player does it like Vash) and I guess for advanced play where you're constantly changing weapons and styles it helps but if you want to just perform decent combos and have fun you get by fine just by having quick enough reflexes. Besides the Claw is the better method of play for a lot of other games not just DMC.

The claw grip wasn't the only one that was used and neither was it the only one that I was thinking of and Dante didn't require just a change of grip- it was a change of grip or a custom button configuration. Either way, Dante wasn't a character of high accessibility which isn't bad but, for some people, to try and really master him was unfun past a certain point. Playing comfortably at a decent level was one thing but to utilize every facet of his character and play at a high skill level demanded time and energy that was hard to see as being worth it. The point I'm making here is that Dante was hard, really hard, to learn and master and Style Switching was a big part of that. Some people would have liked to see the styles change to something a bit more efficient so that it was easier to play as him at more advanced levels.

Now, for DMC 5, it shouldn't be as bad. The game is slower, the tech from DMC 4 might not even be present, he has his own story, and there's a training mode. Skill progression for him shouldn't feel as shallow or run into a plateau.

 

[DarkSlayerVergil]

What does that have to do with the fact that DMC 4 didn't have one?



The claw grip wasn't the only one that was used and neither was it the only one that I was thinking of and Dante didn't require just a change of grip- it was a change of grip or a custom button configuration. Either way, Dante wasn't a character of high accessibility which isn't bad but, for some people, to try and really master him was unfun past a certain point. Playing comfortably at a decent level was one thing but to utilize every facet of his character and play at a high skill level demanded time and energy that was hard to see as being worth it. The point I'm making here is that Dante was hard, really hard, to learn and master and Style Switching was a big part of that. Some people would have liked to see the styles change to something a bit more efficient so that it was easier to play as him at more advanced levels.

Now, for DMC 5, it shouldn't be as bad. The game is slower, the tech from DMC 4 might not even be present, he has his own story, and there's a training mode. Skill progression for him shouldn't feel as shallow or run into a plateau.

Honestly my biggest problem with style based moves outside of the fact that they were never incorporated into Dantes main moveset was also that his style moves never felt all that organic to the character.

 

[Stylish Nero]

What does that have to do with the fact that DMC 4 didn't have one?



The claw grip wasn't the only one that was used and neither was it the only one that I was thinking of and Dante didn't require just a change of grip- it was a change of grip or a custom button configuration. Either way, Dante wasn't a character of high accessibility which isn't bad but, for some people, to try and really master him was unfun past a certain point. Playing comfortably at a decent level was one thing but to utilize every facet of his character and play at a high skill level demanded time and energy that was hard to see as being worth it. The point I'm making here is that Dante was hard, really hard, to learn and master and Style Switching was a big part of that. Some people would have liked to see the styles change to something a bit more efficient so that it was easier to play as him at more advanced levels.

Now, for DMC 5, it shouldn't be as bad. The game is slower, the tech from DMC 4 might not even be present, he has his own story, and there's a training mode. Skill progression for him shouldn't feel as shallow or run into a plateau.

Well DMC4 is in the past (along with DMC2) so no point complaining about features for a game that came out 10 years ago didn't have over the newer entry actually having those features is pretty pointless. We know DMC4's problems and DMC5 are taking notes to fix some of those problems.

So does Nero. I never changed Dante's button layout but I sure as hell did Nero's.

The gameplay isn't slower they have weapons or moves like Cavaliere that are better designed to be more beginner friendly unlike complicated set up weapons like Lucifer and Pandora and give more windows to allow you to plan and make your next move or how Inertia is more easily incorporated into moves than ever before.

 

[Stylish Nero]

Honestly my biggest problem with style based moves outside of the fact that they were never incorporated into Dantes main moveset was also that his style moves never felt all that organic to the character.

What is that supposed to mean?

Dante being the legendary demon hunter and the strongest hero in the series being a Master of Offensive, Defensive, Ranged, and Evasive maneuvers due to years of experience over the decades of devil hunting over Nero who is purely Offensive (prior to 5) with little range, Trish who is purely Offensive with some Range, Lady who is purely Ranged with some Offensive maneuvers, and Vergil who is a mixture of Offensive and Evasive with some Range.

 

[DarkSlayerVergil]

What is that supposed to mean?

Dante being the legendary demon hunter and the strongest hero in the series being a Master of Offensive, Defensive, Ranged, and Evasive maneuvers due to years of experience over the decades of devil hunting over Nero who is purely Offensive (prior to 5) with little range, Trish who is purely Offensive with some Range, Lady who is purely Ranged with some Offensive maneuvers, and Vergil who is a mixture of Offensive and Evasive with some Range.

You're already proving my point, Dante is all those things mixed in one. Why can't Dante styles moves be incorporated into his main moveset instead of being hidden behind a specific style? Then it'd feel organic to his character. The only character I'd expect to be like would be V since it rumored that he'd be able to control demons.

 

[Stylish Nero]

You're already proving my point, Dante is all those things mixed in one. Why can't Dante styles moves be incorporated into his main moveset instead of being hidden behind a specific style? Then it'd feel organic to his character. The only character I'd expect to be like would be V since it rumored that he'd be able to control demons.

That is no different than a character in a fighting game where they have set moves locked behind certain stances and modes. It is a video game it shouldn't how much sense it makes although really it can based on how you look at it. Like why cant Dante use kick moves while in Balrog's Punch/Blow Mode and

Besides we already got a DMC game where Gunslinger, Trickster, and SwordMaster tech were locked into a single playstyle.

If Itsuno thought it was possible to regulate all of Dante's 4 fighting styles into 1 cohesive style he would just build off what 2 did and not separate them into 4 styles with DMC3.

I find it funny how people love DMC3 where your moveset are regulated behind styles and you cant switch between them at will and no problem DMC4 gives you that option now its a big deal. Also people's own point of reference of how flawed the Style system is the fact it was poorly implemented in a game that was rushed and incomplete. Why not wait and see how the Style System would work in a game that is actually designed and finished as the developers intended.

The Style System gives the devs more freedom to incorporate more moves and tech into Dante's moveset that wouldn't be possible without it. Not only that trying to cram all of his moves into some 1 style system will result in clunky moves and inputs that would greatly disrupt gameplay. Like for example trying to map Gun Stinger and Backslide into Lock-On + Shoot + Direction results into removing the option to walk and shoot while locked-on (a common tactic used by a lot of players) and would result into in a lot of unintentional Gun Stingers or BackSlides. Various SwordMaster moves like Prop and Shredder wont work in one button input. Pressing and Jump and Shoot at the same time is also very cumbersome (I mean DmC gave you the option to map those as its own button and I found that far more comfortable) in a fast action game otherwise other characters in DMC series would actually have such a combine input nor is something as amazing like TwoSome Time possible on it.

Also using other characters in the series in the series as an indicator is a bad example as an argument of removing the Style System none of those characters has the sheer volume of moves and variety in mechanics as Dante does as well as fill completely different purposes of gameplay compared to Dante.

You gain more from expanding the Style System then trying to streamline it into some uniform system. There are plenty of ways to make the Style System more accessible (that they are doing with DMC5 and it shows that Dante's gameplay is more positively received with game journalists than Nero's).

https://www.vg247.com/2018/09/22/devil-may-cry-5-dante-hands-on-preview-tgs-2018/
https://www.gamespot.com/articles/d...is-peak/1100-6461971/#comments-block-33442362
https://www.gamespot.com/articles/d...is-peak/1100-6461971/#comments-block-33442362

https://kotaku.com/dante-makes-devil-may-cry-5-a-very-good-time-1829293566

As such, he’s more immediately complex, with the ability to switch between a slate of melee and ranged weapons on the fly allowing players in the know to create more custom combos quickly. Beyond the weapon options there’s also styles to switch between, and these choices interlace brilliantly and in a way that’ll be familiar to long-standing fans and fun for newcomers to experiment with.

The concept of ‘game feel’ is a nebulous one and difficult to put into words, but let me put it like this: when you get up to speed and hit a rhythm, Devil May Cry’s combat feels bloody amazing. It looks just as good to match, too.

Devil May Cry 5's version of Dante is incredibly satisfying to play as and, for longtime fans of the series, it feels familiar. At Tokyo Games Show 2018 I got to play the game for a few hours and, within minutes muscle memory started to kick in. Some of it from Devil May Cry 3 and 4, others from fighting games such as Marvel Vs. Capcom 3, where Dante was also playable and just as complex to control.

Perhaps the most obvious, and biggest addition, is a new weapon called Cavaliere. This is a motorcycle that breaks into two buzzsaw-like blades that are surprisingly versatile. The Cavaliere's attacks are quite slow, with drawn out swings that sweep across the battlefield around Dante, catching multiple enemies and trapping them in place as the blades tear into them. They feel almost like a Monster Hunter weapon: slow, methodical, and demanding of smart timing. However, what they proved to be most effective for was creating a little bit of time that can be used to plan a few moves ahead. While the Cavaliere are slowly shredding enemies, you have the time to think about what the best style to switch to next is, and the weapon you should pair with the style to keep the momentum going. It's a fantastic way of slowing down the breakneck pace of combat for those that aren't able to bash out long strings of button presses for minutes on end.

I would not have thought a motorcycle Devil Arm would be such a satisfying weapon. It sounds ridiculous, even for Devil May Cry, and unwieldy, but it’s so smooth and so easy to use that it overshadows the other new Devil Arm. Why punch and kick demons with fire when you can motorcycle over their faces?

For Nero, I felt more calculated and less improvisational. I also felt like I’d need more time with Nero to truly appreciate the character in DMC5. For Dante, though, it was good times right away. I was using ranged attacks, using the Trickster style to teleport dodge around and then get up close with my motorbike, guns and fists. Nero was fun, sure, but Dante was more so. Dante made me feel cool. Nero less so. But perhaps nothing better sums up those two characters?