Dante’s Trailer

[DarkSlayerVergil]

That is no different than a character in a fighting game where they have set moves locked behind certain stances and modes. It is a video game it shouldn't how much sense it makes although really it can based on how you look at it. Like why cant Dante use kick moves while in Balrog's Punch/Blow Mode and

Besides we already got a DMC game where Gunslinger, Trickster, and SwordMaster tech were locked into a single playstyle.

If Itsuno thought it was possible to regulate all of Dante's 4 fighting styles into 1 cohesive style he would just build off what 2 did and not separate them into 4 styles with DMC3.

I find it funny how people love DMC3 where your moveset are regulated behind styles and you cant switch between them at will and no problem DMC4 gives you that option now its a big deal. Also people's own point of reference of how flawed the Style system is the fact it was poorly implemented in a game that was rushed and incomplete. Why not wait and see how the Style System would work in a game that is actually designed and finished as the developers intended.

The Style System gives the devs more freedom to incorporate more moves and tech into Dante's moveset that wouldn't be possible without it. Not only that trying to cram all of his moves into some 1 style system will result in clunky moves and inputs that would greatly disrupt gameplay. Like for example trying to map Gun Stinger and Backslide into Lock-On + Shoot + Direction results into removing the option to walk and shoot while locked-on (a common tactic used by a lot of players) and would result into in a lot of unintentional Gun Stingers or BackSlides. Various SwordMaster moves like Prop and Shredder wont work in one button input. Pressing and Jump and Shoot at the same time is also very cumbersome (I mean DmC gave you the option to map those as its own button and I found that far more comfortable) in a fast action game otherwise other characters in DMC series would actually have such a combine input nor is something as amazing like TwoSome Time possible on it.

Also using other characters in the series in the series as an indicator is a bad example as an argument of removing the Style System none of those characters has the sheer volume of moves and variety in mechanics as Dante does as well as fill completely different purposes of gameplay compared to Dante.

You gain more from expanding the Style System then trying to streamline it into some uniform system. There are plenty of ways to make the Style System more accessible (that they are doing with DMC5 and it shows that Dante's gameplay is more positively received with game journalists than Nero's).

https://www.vg247.com/2018/09/22/devil-may-cry-5-dante-hands-on-preview-tgs-2018/
https://www.gamespot.com/articles/d...is-peak/1100-6461971/#comments-block-33442362

https://kotaku.com/dante-makes-devil-may-cry-5-a-very-good-time-1829293566

Funny how you bring up fighting games considering most fighting games poster-boy (Ryu, Scorpion, Jago, Jin, ect) tend to be pretty beginner-friendly but hard to master. Dante shoud be in the camp of "easy to use but hard master". The "gun stinger" example you use isn't really a better argument considering X+□+foward could be used as its stand in hell all gunslinger based weapon attacks could be mapped to X+□ depending what firearm you had equipped. Swordmaster Moves like shock for gigalmesh could easily be mapped to ○+/\ depending on what devil arm you had equipped.

People loved 3 styled system cause it encouraged different play styles while also adding to replay as you upgraded styled through using them plus you only had 1 to focus on unlike 4 where you're bogged down with 5. Trickster movement could be mapped to L1 with L3+R3 could be used as devil trigger.

 

[Stylish Nero]

Funny how you bring up fighting games considering most fighting games poster-boy (Ryu, Scorpion, Jago, Jin, ect) tend to be pretty beginner-friendly but hard to master. Dante shoud be in the camp of "easy to use but hard master". The "gun stinger" example you use isn't really a better argument considering X+□+foward could be used as its stand in hell all gunslinger based weapon attacks could be mapped to X+□ depending what firearm you had equipped. Swordmaster Moves like shock for gigalmesh could easily be mapped to ○+/\ depending on what devil arm you had equipped.

People loved 3 styled system cause it encouraged different play styles while also adding to replay as you upgraded styled through using them plus you only had 1 to focus on unlike 4 where you're bogged down with 5. Trickster movement could be mapped to L1 with L3+R3 could be used as devil trigger.

Considering DT tech like Distortion, DT Explosion and the fact many players tend to go in and out DT mid combo (to gain the DT's special buffs for certain attacks or effects like Powered versions of older attacks) seamlessly using L3 + R3 for DT is beyond ludicrous. You'll have to completely stop what you're doing to enter DT breaking the flow of combat.

Nero is the beginner friendly character and is the new protagonist for DMC ever since 4 (and is front and center in both DMC5 and DMC4) so that argument is irrelevant.

No one is forcing you in DMC4 to use every style at once. There have been plenty of people who have gotten by in DMC4 with sticking with 1 or 2 Styles. Besides the problem in DMC4 isn't the Style System but the lack of weapons and options to experiment with as well as shoddy weapon design (which Pandora and Lucifer suffered from a lot) as well as lack of weapon customization (and the fact Yamato should be a weapon not a style).

It is possible to squeeze lets say all of Dante's SwordMaster tech into 1 button but you won't be gaining anything new and Itsuno in the recent interview stated he was interested in giving Dante more techniques he can perform and it shows with how Balrog has a far more expanded moveset than previous gauntlet/greave weapons and CoyoteA having more Gunslinger tech than before.

Lets face it we have different design philosophies. There technically is no right and wrong way to do things as long as these subject matters are tied to our own personal preferences and ideas of fun. Besides its too late even if you somehow manages to convince me and everyone else to align with your way of thinking DMC5 is already made and the Style System already is coming. There is literally nothing you can do about it now. So why not complain about it after the game is out and you still don't like it.

 

[Foxtrot94]

@Stylish Nero
Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[ROCKMAN X]

That is no different than a character in a fighting game where they have set moves locked behind certain stances and modes.

Thank you for mentioning this, i've been saying this over&over. In a fighting game, all combos and stances are INTUITIVE and go with the GAME FLOW. Style Switching is NOT fluid or intuitive. I'm not saying i have anything against styles but the fact is that Nero PROVES that a single weapon can have many moves packed into a single button, so my question is, WHY doesn't dante get the same amount of moves from the get go? why are moves not packed into dante's sword button? There really is no good reason other than the fact that it obviously makes the swordmaster irrelevant and the player can easily ignore the whole thing.

Style switching deliberately shaves dante's vanilla moveset for the sake of making itself relevant, how do you not see the problem here? no one would be complaining&sighing at the return of style switching if Style system did not leech off of Dante's moveset so much. Ironically, instead of adding to dante's moveset, it walls off moves that could've been easily part of dante's regular moveset.

II find it funny how people love DMC3 where your moveset are regulated behind styles and you cant switch between them at will and no problem DMC4 gives you that option now its a big deal.

Because there is a WORLD of difference between DMC3 enemies&level design and DMC4's enemy&level design. DMC3 was DESIGNED around using only one style per mission, DMC4&5 aren't. Players are expected/forced to use the switching.

1 style system will result in clunky moves and inputs that would greatly disrupt gameplay.

THAT'S EXACTLY what i think about the style system! Its clunky and disrupts gameplay. Playing DMC 4 dante was the first time that i've ever experienced a "learning curve" for the BASIC CONTROLS. You know there's a big problem when there's a learning curve for the controls. Controls should never be complex to the point that learning it by itself is a challenge. You just have to go back to the drawing board and come up with a more intuitive control scheme, rather than doubling down on your aeroplane controls.

This is game design 101, you NEVER make learning the controls a "CHALLENGE".

Various SwordMaster moves like Prop and Shredder wont work in one button input.

You can use one of the shoulder buttons in combination with the sword&gun button to make space for moves like that! This is just one intuitive way to input those moves, after all nero's EXceed system works like that. Style switching is not the end all be all of genius game design exactly, its very flawed and needs a massive overhaul, which i don't think DMC5 has.

Also using other characters in the series in the series as an indicator is a bad example as an argument of removing the Style System none of those characters has the sheer volume of moves and variety in mechanics as Dante does as well as fill completely different purposes of gameplay compared to Dante.

No, characters can be compared. We're not comparing complexity, we're comparing the controls and how intuitive they are. Dante having double the moves ironically proves my point, if he has so many moves then why is his basic weapon moveset so vanilla&lacking compared to everyone else's? Going back to nero one more time, nero's one button brings up so many aerial&ground combos whereas Dante's rebellion without swordmaster is lacking. WHY Is it "lacking"? Its almost as if the style system exists for the sake of it rather than for truly expanding dante's moveset.

 

[Demi-fiend]

All of this could be remedied with more melee weapons to implement these moves in instead of walling it off behind styles.

Even if it were just two style changes for the circle button instead of four, it would be a vast improvement. Left and right on the D-Pad could be used to switch between RG and SM, while the other two styles take up the shoulder buttons (L2 and R2). Simply press R2 to switch Square from normal shot to GS.

Up and Down would change the Melee and Ranged weapons.

How is it that with Ninja Gaiden you were able to perform guard, counter, and dodge all with a few button combinations but DMC5 needs to utilize the D-Pad in order to do the same?

 

[DarkSlayerVergil]

@Ash, @ROCKMAN X after thinking about it some more, I'd still have GS moves mapped to □+X, SM mapped to ○+/\, and Trickster movement mechanic would be only be active while you're locked onto an enemy. This would let the player freely maneuver around the environment while still locked onto on top of keeping the momentum up. RG would be treated similar to MGS:Rising parry system where you'll parry by simply pressing forward right as the enemy attacks and then what energy you'd could be released through your next attack(dreadnaught would be activated through R3+L3). L1 could still be devil trigger(so people can still damage burst with it) and the triggers would still be used for shuffling devil-arms and firearms.

 

[Demi-fiend]

Or how about a Royal Trick style? Just hear me out.

The big problem is the teleport. Without it, you're basically Trish trying to jump up at the enemies.

So, why not just use Royalguard to "Blast Warp" to your enemy, cutting through everyone else but with less force. Like a softer version of Vergil's Rapid Slash.

It's OP, but it won't do that much damage (almost no damage) unless you perform a Perfect Release. You can only do that in front of an enemy.

Why have RG be a dash when you already have a dash with Trickster? Why not combine the two like Ninja Gaiden?

The only problem is that Ninja Gaiden doesn't have a teleport (as far as I know). So Lock-on + Guard + Forward would simply perform a release teleport towards and through the enemy. Guard and Lock-on without a directional input is just Parry.

Your GS idea's a good one (similar to someone else I had just spoken to), so it's something to consider.

Or, you could simply hold the gun button, then mash it to perform the GS moves. Who knows? All it needs is Twosome Time because without that, there's no point of even having GS to begin with.

 

[DarkSlayer54]

I've been thinking how to translate the DMC4 style system into DmC's... and while it wouldn't be a perfect fit, I think it would be simple to do.

Hold L2, and square becomes gunslinger, whereas circle becomes trickster. By default, triangle is attack, and circle is swordsmaster. Holding R2 makes circle Royale Guard.

I think square as gunslinger would be the most awkward to re-learn, but it wouldn't be a big deal for me. It's already mapped to the "gun" button, and so it would just be a secondary state to it. Circle then having three states - evasion, offensive, and defensive. It would be more evenly spread out among those buttons, instead of everything being thrown onto circle alone.

 

[Demi-fiend]

If you transfer the R2 Royalguard function to L1 (I play DmC with both style modes mapped onto the left shoulder buttons), then that would probably be my preferred control method.

 

[Foxtrot94]

The gameplays always had Dante change Styles while in active combat but I hope dedicated animations for switching Styles while idle are still there. I love using them as taunts in DMC4, especially Royalguard's.

 

[ShiningTempest]

Massive hype aside, was there a single new Sword combo in the reveal?
He only uses Rebellion in gameplay and Sparda in the cutscenes because spoilers.
Does that mean Sparda is only a re skin of Rebellion combos? Sparda has such awesome potential with the transform skill.
Come on Itsuno you gotta give us new Sword combos in the main game, we have been using the same animations since DMC3.

 

[Carlos]

It's a bit premature to say that the levels are big in 5. Anyway, that's kind of a weak argument given that it's judging Dante by a comparison to the convenience of Nero. There's no real reason not to play slower and just run up to enemies if you find switching uncomfortable, that's how he had to play in 1 and 3/4ths of 3.

It's not premature to say that the levels are big in 5. That's what they're gunning for; a true open world DMC game. We've been here before. DMC1 was restricted to "levels" because of hardware and disc limitations. But despite this, DMC1 has been flirting with the idea of open world. DMC3 was supposed to be open world, but again, because of hardware limitations, they're treated as "levels," but you spent the entire game - traversing the entirety of Temen-ni-gru - throughout the entire game until at least level 12-13. DMC4 - you traversed through a masion, and a church.

With DMC2, the director wanted to make the game fully open world. No levels, no this, no that. The problem with this is that the structure wasn't there. Each mission had a story in it. It gave you a reason to beat that mission, it gave you a sort of a guide to the end of that mission. Without that, you're lost. That's one of those reasons why DMC2 failed. The game just felt out of place. Not because of the complete open-world feel, but the structure wasn't there. DMC5 is going to be true open world DMC, but retain the mission style story telling because it stays true to the source material. Not because of limitations.

 

[Veloran]

It's not premature to say that the levels are big in 5.

It really is. Of the levels we've seen so far, they really aren't very large at all, all the combat areas are pretty compact. In terms of total area overall, it's kind of irrelevant since they seem to give you sprint right from the start.

 

[Carlos]

It really is. Of the levels we've seen so far, they really aren't very large at all, all the combat areas are pretty compact. In terms of total area overall, it's kind of irrelevant since they seem to give you sprint right from the start.

Obviously, you didn't read the rest of my post. I mean, just because it "looks" small, doesn't mean it is. You've been playing DMC for a long time, I'm assuming, or you wouldn't be here. DMC has been flirting with Open World since day one.

 

[LordOfDarkness]

Doesn’t seem like all of the environments are small. I’d imagine this is going to be one of the bigger worlds we’ve had in a DMC game. That fight with Goliath looked quite spacious.

 

[Veloran]

Obviously, you didn't read the rest of my post.

Yes, I did. DMC "flirting with the idea of an open world" by having a connected map is completely meaningless. When I say it's premature to say that the levels are big, I'm talking about the size of the rooms and combat areas in the game, not just how many or how interconnected they are.

Your statement that the levels will be big because they want an open world (And it's not happening anyway) is completely nonsensical, because even if DMC1 had no missions at all and you were simply left to explore the entire gameworld as you would, the actual spaces you're in would still be small.

Ultimately this entire idea of whether or not it'll be an "open world" or what that would consist of is simply a tangent, because so far the only wide-open area we've seen in Dante's missions is a boss arena.

I mean, just because it "looks" small, doesn't mean it is.

In what way, exactly? I really don't think we're talking about the same thing here.

 

[Carlos]

In what way, exactly? I really don't think we're talking about the same thing here.

In general, yes, we are.

Yes, I did. DMC "flirting with the idea of an open world" by having a connected map is completely meaningless. When I say it's premature to say that the levels are big, I'm talking about the size of the rooms and combat areas in the game, not just how many or how interconnected they are.

Hold up. So, you're saying - Temen-ni-gru isn't "big" in any stretch of the word that you just told me... You're saying, that all those "small rooms" don't necessarily make up the whole DMC3 game? Is that it? Because in every mission you play, you can backtrack to older locations you were in. For example, if you made it to squarely into the middle of Temen-ni-gru, you can go straight outside of the building if you want to. If you go traverse further and further into the depths of the tower, you can go all the way from the side of the tower where Lady climbs, and you can go from THERE to the beginning of the tower. Yes, it's possible. In fact, this is exactly what you do to unlock the fire door.

Your statement that the levels will be big because they want an open world (And it's not happening anyway) is completely nonsensical, because even if DMC1 had no missions at all and you were simply left to explore the entire gameworld as you would, the actual spaces you're in would still be small.

I'm just going to go ahead and laugh. Every game since DMC1 has been open world and you're not even realizing it. Go pick up DMC HD Collection and start re-playing. What I said isn't even far fetched. Ask anyone in this thread, do it.

Anyone out there can confirm what I just said? Please? Thanks!

Ultimately this entire idea of whether or not it'll be an "open world" or what that would consist of is simply a tangent, because so far the only wide-open area we've seen in Dante's missions is a boss arena.

Wow. Incredible. If you've been playing since DMC1, I'm just gonna laugh. It was right in front of you the whole time!

 

[LordOfDarkness]

In what way, exactly? I really don't think we're talking about the same thing here.

That’s probably because you’re not. You’re both disagreeing with one another. If you were talking about the same thing then you wouldn’t be going back and forth pointlessly arguing about something.

@Carlos - I appreciate what you’re trying to say here, but I think if he isn’t going to agree with you or accept what you’re getting at (which by the way doesn’t mean that he has to) then you’d be better off just forgetting about this whole thing.

Sometimes we have to realise that even if we think we’re making the right points, a continuous back and forth argument that ultimately ends up going nowhere but in circles is better to end sooner rather than it is later.

 

[Carlos]

@Carlos - I appreciate what you’re trying to say here, but I think if he isn’t going to agree with you or accept what you’re getting at (which by the way doesn’t mean that he has to) then you’d be better off just forgetting about this whole thing.

That's what I'll do. I'll restate what I said: Since DMC1, you've been playing an Open World Action game. So, DMC5 will continue this tradition, regardless of the fact each area is a mission. DMC3's Temen-ni-gru is the perfect example of what I said.

If you want to be closed off, then I will just agree to disagree.

I'm still going to laugh. Because you don't realize that it's been there since day one. I can't change your opinion, but the idea has been there since day one.

We were talking about the same thing, it's his opinion that isn't going change. So, adios.

 

[Veloran]

In general, yes, we are.

No, we aren't. The next section where you talk about Temen-ni-gru proves this, because it has absolutely nothing to do with the point I was making.
When I was talking about the size of the levels, that had nothing to do with the total area you could explore, the whole of the gameworld, or how open and interconnected everything was. I was speaking specifically about the size of the areas you fight in directly, because that is the only thing relevant to the notion of forced style switching. The topic was about Trickster helping you get around in a fight and that this is incentivized if rooms are large and open and not so if they're smaller. Nothing you're talking about is connected to that, because Trickster is practically worthless for your actual traversal around the levels.

Please pay attention to the context of the conversation before you chime in.

Since DMC1, you've been playing an Open World Action game.

Given that each game is indeed segmented up into missions which often cut the player off from other sections of the map, block their progress, or even alter the map directly as in the later parts of DMC3, shouldn't you drop the "Open" from "Open World Action Game"?