Do we deserve a DMC 5 or DmC 2?

[Reign]

Meh. I don't mind you guys going on about it. You've already gave your thoughts on the topic. That's all you need to do.

You're on topic if you're talking about DMC and DmC. You're practically stating why it should go on if it were to continue.

 

[Viper]

Well, I think we deserve DMC5 at least for the sake of finding out who that woman in red was, cause that was the most evil tease ever.
I fully expect her to be another vigilante that had her world shattered by demons. Don't be fooled by that sweet smile, that actually says "I'm gonna kill you tonight". XD

 

[V's patron]

Even if we get another DMC, there is always the possibility it might not be what we want. Plenty of series lost their luster or have unsatisfying ending etc. But thats the risk we take when we commit to a new story so i say bring it on.

There has been talks of a DMC movie being made but it never made much traction. So i say we deserve some good DMC content outside the games as well. I dont care if its a live action movie, a cgi one, another manga/comic/novels etc. I just want more DMC.

It be funny if nero's mom/the women in red was revealed to be DMC's version of Kat.

 

[Gel]

It be funny if nero's mom/the women in red was revealed to be DMC's version of Kat.

This possibility is extremely high. Being Vergil's lover , in some way she will be a match.

 

[aoshi]

I would point to the direction of Resident evil. Before DmC was considered blasphemous , a lot was criticised of new Resident evil games and yet here we are with a new game as expected by the classic fans. Survival horror at its core. Similarly, we can expect a new DMC game in the good old DMC universe. But don't want to see dante in the lead role. I feel his role becoming stale with the same moves as in previous games in DMC 4. I quite liked the gameplay of Nero.I feel capcom should continue the series with Nero.Except with better story and not cliche characterisation.

 

[Zoey]

I think not only the fandom deserves DMC5, but also new gamers who never played DMC before, for example because they were too young at the time, deserve a new next-gen title in the classic series. It's objectively a fabulous franchise, as good as some other series out there getting sequels so easily while DMC has been neglected since 2008,

except of course for DMC4SE (which I love). I would appreciate DmC2 too, but I'd personally prefer sticking to the classic series. Damn, I'd want them both, actually.
Regarding classic Vergil: I'm 73% sure he's dead. Not only Nelo Angelo kind of exploded at the end of DMC1, but pieces of him were also used to create the Angelos in DMC4. He should be dead. Maybe. Nevertheless I don't see this as a problem in a supernatural/demonic context, and I think he should absolutely return/resurrect somehow in a fifth chapter and I'm slightly positive he will. As someone said somewhere, "Never understimate the resurrective power of popularity."
I strongly support the idea of

having Dante return as the main character for DMC5, with Vergil also returning in a substantial supporting role.

but I'd also want Nero. I love him as a character! I liked him in 4 from the first to the last scene and I never actually understood why many fans didn't, or they even "hated" him. A new game would have enough room for all of them and new fans would appreciate it too. C'mon Capcom, you have one job... I'm so tired of waiting for something which would possibily never happen, I don't know about you

 

[V's patron]

@Zoey
Nero was the first lead character outside of Dante so that came with its own baggage. Plus forcing the audience to play as him and then Dante didn't help.

There are alot of other reasons why they didn't like him. People had other ideas on where they wanted the series to go. People didn't like the "final fantasy/anime" direction they were going in. People saw Nero as "Dante-lite" instead of a unique lead. People thought they should have focused more on his connections to Sparda. People really didn't like the love story because it was too cliche. The devil bringer was a one trick pony etc etc.

I do agree with these complaints even i dont think i hate him. He had a lot of potential, they just fumbled the ball which they also with the reboot and the anime.

Nero deserves another chance so i hope capcom doesnt fumble it.

 

[Veloran]

Well I guess so, as you said, ten whole years passed between 3 and 1 after all.

However the point I was making is that throughout 3, as the plot goes on, you can see him taking seemingly similar situations with recurrent characters more and more seriously each encounter, which leads to him slowly gain the kind of attitude he has in the first game.
It applies to both Vergil and Lady encounters but take Vergil for example. The first time is all fun and games, a big party. Then, after he gets pummeled, he meets his brother a second time and you can see how even though he still jokes a little, he takes the fight well more seriously than he previously did, with actual determination this time, surely triggered (see what I did there?) by his defeat at the hands of Vergil, as his will to have "one more game" with him shows.
And then, as he confronts him for the third time (which, by the way, has a pretty disheartening effect after seeing the two team up just a moment prior), he starts off joking and bantering before turning serious and sincere as the situation calls for it (something that he already did with Lady several times before).

See what I mean? Maybe I worded it incorrectly, maybe it came across as if I said that by the end of the game Dante is exactly the way he is in 1, but I meant to use that particular final scene with Vergil (could have picked another couple before that one that show similar traits in Dante's character but being the climax, I thought that one with Vergil was most appropriate) to tell you that that particular scene symbolizes his growth to be the Dante he is in the opening of the first game, you know what I mean?

Maybe I should have elaborated in greater detail then, but I had stuff to do, and I thought a short post was enough to make a simple point but I guess the dowside to a short post is that it's easier to not make your point come across as effectively as you'd like. Sigh. The thing is that I've grown to hate writing long posts more and more so I tend to avoid doing that, so I hope you appreciate the effort of me writing this one just to clarify myself with you, LOL. I also hope you understand what I fully meant now. If I didn't butcher English in any major way, that is.

No, no, I see it, that's exactly what I mean.

ToF says she was Eva's living copy and that's why he followed . Only later she gains a soul for her own, according to same found.There was an interview that described their connection as being of siblings, but never that deep, since she was only a murderess who quickly converts and asks to go with him.
Not only that: he doesn't know what he will do with his life, DMC3 happens, Lady reassures him of his humanity, he promises that he will help her wiping demons and (apparently) she help him open the shop and grows at his side. As much the strong relationship with Trish only existed in Kamiya's proto canon.

Do you you have the interview or do you know where can I find it?Not doubting of you, but the all this is very bizarre and novelty for me:
The guy that follows a "living copy of his mother"(according to ToF)EXACTLY because of that, only accepting she is now a different person in the end of game, but has a soulmate connection with her, so deep that it's almost divine, but they can't be together because of that, but Trish is the most sweet person of the face of the world, so she ships Dante with Lady hard ( she does that in anime and in DMC4SE).
This is pure fanfiction coming from someone's headcanon. This does not makes sense.Now the only thing is missing is that Dante made a celibate vote .

Okay c'mon man, you're overestimating my opinion of Trish at least a little bit. All I'm saying is, there are reasons why she might intentionally set up a situation to get Dante into trouble.

Just like I said before: not only DMC is grey and characters have a grey moral, as its own media can contradict each other. The guys at Capcom approve things without any kind of criteria or verification.

UPDATE:
Ladies and gentlemen, Sparda isn't dead. He sealed himself in the underworld according to this: ( yes, this is official and its from DMC3Se, PC Version and can be found in Library Files, under "Character files"

So, Sparda's status is officially unknown.Now, let's welcome chaos!

Well that's pretty interesting, but at the same time I feel like it's something we should have already known, given how Devil Arms work.

I suppose. But I know plenty of games whose narratives thrive through readables and in-game text, rather than any emoting of characters or cinematic establishing…Dark Souls for one. And you won’t hear a single person peep about the ineffective storytelling of THAT series.

Well, the storytelling bit can be argued, but it does amazing lore.

I would presume Zobek’s status as a Lord of Shadow would grant him insight to Gabriel’s mind while he’s still a human. Carmilla was able to read his mind with a glance, if you remember, and Zobek’s supposed to be the most powerful of the three.

Or I dunno. Maybe MercurySteam needed Patrick Stewart to provide something to the game in addition to just voicing a main character. The guy can’t be cheap to get ahold of.

Carmilla was also a vampire, they're known to read minds. I vaguely suspect it was the latter.

Weird, no. Cliché? Painfully. Most of their exchanges are literally just the two of them making googly-eyes and calling out each other’s names. I’m long desenstitized by anime romances literally playing out and functioning exactly like this. I’m just surprised Kyrie and Nero’s interactions didn’t have the shimmering artificial effects or the sweeping cherry-blossom trees in the background.

That’s literally all those scenes were missing.

I'm talking more about how they were raised as brother and sister.

Given that they're both very awkwardly aware of their feelings but don't want to straight up say it, I can see why they'd stick to names rather than titles.

Shamefully as it is to admit, I’m actually not privy to much of DMC4’s concept art. I’ve been meaning to snag a copy of the 3142 Art Book, but I’ve been putting it off for years. I’d love to see what a game like this looked like in development.

Some of it is very good.

Admittedly it also makes me a bit sad, because it outright shows that Nelo Angelo was supposed to be in the game.

I’m not sure how one can "get over" a mental deficiency like a subconscious block or traumatic memory fragmentation. Unlike Dante’s seemingly-willful dismissal of his own core-establishing motives in DMC3, the mental status of the Dante in the novel is probably something he can’t help.

But again….that isn’t canon anyway, so it’s not like it affects Dante’s characterization in any way.

Sure, but having gone over it again, it is definitely something he was willfully doing.

His mother's death played out behind his eyelids again. It was one of the prime reasons he had chosen the dangerous path of a mercenary, honing his body and mind.

It’s simple, really. Just look into the dialogue in the opening sequence for DMC1, and you’ll see what I mean. Dante’s reliance on campy lines and corny jokes wanes the longer he talks to Trish, as he becomes more aware of what’s going on.

That very human ability to shift tones according to the situation…it’s called being a character. Something that, quite gratingly, DMC3 Dante almost never does.

His characterization is set to "hyperactive man-child one-liner machine" 99% of his time on screen, regardless of the tension or mood of the accompanying scene…which in literary terms, is called being one-note.

First of all I'm not entirely sure of that, and secondly, for DMC3 Dante, he is literally acting in character the vast majority of the time.

Ah, it would appear you’re correct. I just skimmed some older threads concerning Dante’s age, and I was mixed up. My humblest apologies…it would seem that it’s not just my fingers that these long posts are starting to fatigue.

It's fine, they are pretty long. I haven't had time for a while to write anything up.

Yes. Call me crazy, but I don’t find most of their interactions "familial" in any sense, especially given how the bulk of their role in the story is to aid him in each of his hunts, to provide support as allies...support that, by the novel’s own construction, Dante doesn’t appreciate until it’s too late.

It’d be like assigning Lady and Trish to familial roles based on how they interact with Dante. Comrades, sure…but family? To me, that’s a bit of a stretch.

I'm not sure that's a stretch at all. But moreover, the passage I quoted from the book shows that Dante makes that connection between Nel and his mother very directly. The same with Grue's family, Dante even went to his home and ate with them multiple times.

The evening was a brief stab at normalcy. For Tony, who had no family, this was the closest he got to finding out what those small moments were all about.

Moreover, even the Demons understand their relationship, like when they specifically target Jessica.

"It doesn't end here. We will do this to everyone you know." The demon fired off a staccato laugh. "You always hurt the ones you love. What could drive someone to despair more than their own family?"

When a scene like that has already such inconsequential impact on the character it was trying to develop to the point where its removal changes nothing about the character or story, it has already failed beyond comprehension.

Except that's utterly wrong. Dante's defeat at the hands of Vergil and the subsequent awakening of his Devil Trigger is the turning point of the game's narrative, after which Dante begins to understand what's at stake and starts to shift towards battling his way through the tower for actual reasons rather than just a brotherly grudge.

To put it simply, Alucard’s judge of character and motivation are confounding even to his own allies, to the point where he’s often questioned for "why he killed this person" or "why he decided to spare this one." We never really understand the exact workings of the Count’s deranged inner workings, only mere glimpses of what makes him tick, and what thin strands of sense or rationality make up the interior of his psychotic head.

What you're telling me here is that you're expounding on Alucard's character in a way that is almost identical to what you deride people doing towards DMC characters.

He even berates Anderson for using Helena’s Nail as a quick way out, precisely because he’s doing it for the same reasons: because of being unable to face his own inadequacy, as someone/something weaker.

And yet if he hadn't done that, Alucard simply would have killed him anyway.

It’s not Anderson’s status as human or inhuman that wins Alucard’s respect…it’s his determination, his unbridled and frothing will, one so characteristically-human despite his inhuman body, that wins Alucard’s admiration.

Which makes no sense, because Anderson was taking those risks full in the knowledge that he wasn't human and wouldn't simply die as a human would.

Additionally, Alucard sobering on Anderson for him taking the "easy way out" is insane in and of itself. What about humans that use guns or bombs? Aren't they also just taking the easy way out? Or what about swords and armor, isn't that also an easy way out? The only kind of human that wouldn't be utilizing a huge advantage, something which would enhance their own will by it's mere usage, would be someone trying to beat him to death with his bare hands while naked.

And in the confines of Alucard’s mind, even with his new set of powers, he still believes that someone out there, someone with the endearing, human and inconceivable qualities that disarmed even someone as powerful as him so many years ago, may yet exist to bring him the poetic end he so desires.

In that event Alucard is simply an insane person, and nothing short of Christ himself descending from the heavens would ever stand a chance against him.

And even then, Alucard would likely kill him too and say something about how divine abilities mean he didn't have the heart of a human being.

As mentioned previously above, it’s not the use of the supernatural he detests, but the reasons his unworthy opponents use them.

But that makes even less sense. Anderson turned into a monster in order to extract justice upon Alucard, how is that any less honorable than Alucard turning Seras into a vampire because she wished to avenge her parents and not save her own life? Anderson didn't want glory or eternal life or anything so petty, he wanted to defeat Alucard because he believed it was his duty and drive, something just as selfless as Seras' mission.

And when a solitary mangaka under the pressure of a weekly magazine is turning out a better characterization than a team of writers working for a conglomerate with the prestige and budget as Capcom, I’m not going to be generating a whole lot of sympathy for the latter…especially when they’re in a far better position, have three times the budget and resources, and are five times less competent at doing the same job.

Without the slightest doubt, I can say Bingo has the worse job. The more people involved in a project, the harder it is for a writer to deliver their ideas.

Arguably, yes. But I’d argue also that many of the story elements I and many other fans formulate are grounded enough to be believable. I never once count them as canon or sufficient for the lack of coherent writing in the actual games….because it isn’t my job to do so.

It’s Capcom’s job to generate the writing, not the speculative efforts of fans.

But Capcom does generate the writing, and the fact that you prefer to simply call the story and characters bad is the fault of your failure to pick up cues, not their failure as writers.

I wasn’t aware any English versions of Trinity of Fates even existed, as the only official version is Japanese. If you can read Japanese, or have scans, would you mind posting them somewhere, or directing me to where I can access them somewhere online?

Trinity of Fate was translated nine years ago, in 2008.

http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/devil-may-cry-trinity-of-fates-translations.160251140/

Highlights include confirmation that Dante is intentionally playing up his behavior, all of 3's main themes and allegories, Dante and Vergil's relationship and similarities as characters, and in particular the fact that Vergil also loved and wanted to protect his mother, and that her death is what put him on the road he walked.

Regardless, even if the narrative elements you claim to exist really do have a basis in the writers’ intentions, all that does is showcase that they can’t execute even a fraction of what they intend for the characters or story in the actual game.

Crucial and character-defining attributes something that has to be offered to fans through spin-off or bonus material, instead of the confines of the game they’re expected to inject them into.

If that’s not a colossal literary failing of the worst kind, I seriously don’t know what is.

But, again, these aren't things that they failed to execute. People did pick up on almost all of this.

The problem lies with you.

"Probably" isn’t really substantial enough to warrant or confirm such an integral part of Dante’s character. With the way that scene was handled and with how paper-thin the likelihood of any "tragic undertones" the writers were trying to implement through a gun-kata pose, Dante whooping about his love for fighting, and finishing off with hot-blooded metal music…it’s not hard evidence to support anything of the kind.

It’s a nice idea…but not factually plausible or relevant based on anything we see at that moment the game. For all we’re told and shown, Dante switches from showing anguish to reverting back to his jolly, fun-loving self, without alluding or suggesting anything else.

And really, that’s the only factual evidence you, me, or anyone can take from this scene, regardless of any personal interpretation.

To be frank - And, I do not mean this as an insult to your character - I feel as though you're a bit dense. Based on everything that they had done to that point and the entire basis of Dante's character, that scene was blatantly him using the violence he's so accustomed towards to deal with and cover up his emotions about failing to stop Vergil.

That justifies Dante’s risk-taking and lack of acknowledging the danger involved in the fights he does. It does NOT, however, explain even marginally the depressed or emotional undertones you claim are hidden under that nature, everything relating to Dante wanting to meet his end where, really, that’s never once implied or established.

Did you not consider what exactly happens at that point? Sid "defeats" Dante and impales him with his own blade. But, Dante's gotten up from that a dozen times over easily, and he still seems down for the count. It's only when Patty begs for him to wake up, in the same way he begged for Eva to wake up, that he returns. The only reason he didn't before was because he wanted to let it go and die.

Again, yes, I never contested his blind overconfidence and willingness to disregard risk and harm to himself….but that doesn’t establish anything intentionally-suicidal or emotionally off-balance ABOUT Dante.

Generally when someone can be described as "dangerously suicidal", they're not entirely there.

Even after Sparda was brought up, he kept on looking for excuses to write it off as something not worth his time. That lazy, reluctant disbelief that the threat is as serious as Lady’s claiming….it really seems to grind against with this whole tense, emotionally-stimulated connection between Dante and Trish you’re proposing, or the notion that he snapped from being lazy to being attentive.

When Dante initially questions the Order's Sparda-worship, that's when Trish makes her move, because the situation has been shown to involve and interest him on some level. But it's only when Lady elaborates and pushes on the Order being a threat does Dante shift from a "no" to a "yes" almost right away.

If you have your own interpretation of how Dante operates mentally—be it these theories about him being “suicidal” to satisfy some “emotional emptiness”, or having these interactions with Trish that are never occur or are implied to occur off-screen, or any other one of your previous assertions—that’s fine. But until they’re confirmed, or have any factual basis in the game or reference material, they’re just assertions.

I feel as though aspects of his mentality has at least some basis throughout the canon. I've seen too much of Dante acting strangely, beyond just his crazy upfront personality, to just think that's all there is to him. The thing leading me to this specific line of thought is simply how his character changes throughout each game, something that I know is certainly not planned (At least not for 2), but that could be explained very well.

I think previous contributors in this thread made the very justifiable request that the series step up its barebones and inconsistent writing quality, which, in all honesty, is all I’ve ever asked for and could easily resolve half the stuff you and I are discussing at great detail.

It should be Capcom’s job, not ours, to substantially provide this franchise with the narrative angles and character depth it really needs.

Well, I think they did do just that in 3, what they need to do is continue it forward and bring things out fully.

I’m not sure I understand. Are you saying that his constant, rebellious nature is somehow supposed to be what characterizes his appreciation and affection for the human spirit?

Rather, I was talking about how that "lecturing and talking down", specifically to Vergil at the end of 3, Sid in the anime, and Agnus in 4, is all showing his mindset which was developed in 3. I mean you can make an argument for his rebellious attitude sort of coming from that in a way, but I don't think that's quite right.

Anyway, my larger point here is that to move forward with Dante as a character, that mindset should be challenged.

So in the anime, Sid makes that observation. In DMC3, Lady expresses that observation about humans being crueler than demons, as does Nero to some mild extent in DMC4…

…but never once Dante himself.

It stands to reason that Dante himself also understands the idea, even if he hasn't expressed it - At the very least because other characters have told him so directly. Though, Dante does make a few observations in the anime suggesting he's well aware of how bad humans can be.

Again, even if you don't think this has any real foundations, can you think of a better way to go forward with Dante as a character, to give him a real conflict?

And really, you telling me how often Capcom re-uses this as a main crux of their narrative doesn’t at all dislodge the point I’m making about them being uncreative or lacking narrative nuance. It only compounds it.

To be fair, they do change it up often enough.

In 1, with Dante fully inheriting his father's power, that wasn't so much a duality thing as a realization of potential thing. For Trish it was only half(?) duality, more like a monster-becomes-human type of thing, though they're very similar. For Lucia in 2 you've sort of got the Trish story again, except there it's more of a twist, human-becomes-monster-becomes-human idea. It's a bit more depth but the execution failed because DMC2 and no amount of sexy/bad French accents could save that.

3 is where they really double down into it, and Vergil's inclusion pushes it much farther, showing the alternate path. But at the same time you have these two characters reflecting on each other, you see how alike they are even with all their differences, it sort of touches on that core narrative change from 1 I talked about before. This includes the manga, and again the book touches on this but from DMC1's perspective.

The anime references the idea maybe three or four times, mostly it's the music though, which is a reoccurring theme about choosing which path Dante should take. With 4 it's sort of a turn on Lucia's story, where Nero becomes more aware of his demonic nature, but rather than reject it for humanity like Lucia did he more accepts it and is in turn accepted by Kyrie.

What I'm saying is, the series deals with the same basic ideas and concepts, but changes them around quite a bit. Given it's a series that's basically about demonic halfbreeds and a demon who rejected demonkind I think they should stick with the duality thing, especially because there are more ways to explore it still.

Exactly. And it’s precisely why, with his persona and mannerisms, in addition to the author’s refusal to make him take anything seriously or have him dial down the corn or cheese in serious situations, that Dante works far better as a side-protagonist, and not the solo-protagonist.

This is why I’m more inclined to anticipate Nero’s return as the main character, and not Dante’s. Developing Dante on the side, as apart of someone else’s story, seems to work better for him. His role in DMC4, and ^THAT scene in particular, was a gleaming example of that.

Now, I do think that Dante should be a side-protagonist, but at the same time I think it's not really fare to relegate him to that role without a proper sendoff. I know you're referencing that scene and Dante's mannerisms as a negative thing, but I do think they're reasons why Dante could act as a very strong narrative third act and climax in another game.

As much as I’d love for elements of the novel to remain canon, we can’t really pick and choose what stayed canon from the novels just because of some mild, non-factual evidence. Not if we want to be intellectually-honest as fans. What you or I “believe” or “want to believe”, no matter how superior it may be to the narrative failings of the actual canon, are irrelevant.

Just because that was an idea in the novel doesn’t mean it has any canon relevance, and can’t be used as some means of explaining Dante’s character for his actions or portrayal in-game.

I’d be surprised if Bingo Morihashi or the rest of Capcom’s current writers even know those novels exist.

I'm almost certain they're very aware of those novels, given how early on when taking over DMC Itsuno was almost desperate for Kamiya's approval with his version of the franchise.

Additionally, the books were never officially decanonized. As far as I'm concerned everything that doesn't directly contradict with the future series (IE, Vergil) is canon.

Ruining Sparda’s character? What does that have to do with anything?

I presume you read my other posts, so you can see why Sparda's involvement would be touchy.

Again. CAN be. Not IS.

Fact versus interpretation. The distinction is not only useful, but necessary.

As I posted above with the ToF, I'm fairly certain that interpretation is the factual one, and what they were going for, insofar as both comedic and serious commentary simultaneously. Actually, Itsuno has directly stated that he loves the idea of doing silly things seriously, I believe in the Devil May Cry 4 SE interviews with Shimomura.

Given how few details we’ve been given on Sparda’s character, and the exact nature of Eva’s death, that could work as a really good dynamic rift between him and Dante. I would love to see Eva’s death, the one thing that gave Dante motivation to take up arms in the first place, being used against the world he’s sworn to protect.

That kind of dramatic and ironic twisting of one of DMC’s central themes would be an excellent way to develop Dante, and revisit an aspect of his character he’s been fairly mute about since the aftermath of the first game. In fact, revisiting such a pivotal portion of the series’ lore and facing it full-front sounds like it’d be used for the final game, or even an Anniversary game, to send off or celebrate the series properly: tackling the topic and event that started it.

That's exactly it, and I don't think I could have phrased it much better either. It could sort of be like a touchstone bringing things full circle. Of course I also vaguely think that it's not really a game that Dante should come out of, it might be the place to end his story completely.

Answering the enigma that is Sparda’s defense of the human race, and some of his other reasons for protecting them, is pretty high on my list for future plot-revelations in the series. We know Eva has nothing to do with it, since the Demon War was almost 2000 years before he met her, or wedded her. I’d like for them to really shed light on his motivation to do that as a character, outside of these vague, noble and righteous reasons for doing it.

At it's core, I almost think that's something which could come down to naiveté, or additionally a belief in some higher cause. Because Devil May Cry is a universe with only demons and humans, and no angels, it could be Sparda wanted some kind of a higher ideal, and not finding it in his own kind he turned to humans.

As for the rest, about centering around the contrast and comparison between humans and demons…thaaaaat’s where I disembark. As I’ve stated somewhere above, I’m really not a fan of retreading this narrative theme for the umpteenth time. Your spin on it is certainly a good one, but we’ve revisited the actual topic so many times, it’s left me with nauseous levels of fatigue. Your idea would’ve been nice two or three games ago, but now….I’d rather the series just rely on it less and move on, already.

I think in order for the series to move on, it really is something they need to put to rest properly.

I mean if you didn't want to touch on the themes of them being similar and having similar natures, you could also go the opposite route of their differing natures. If you've played Skyrim (And I really, REALLY hate to reference Skyrim, so please bear with me), you might remember the part where Paarthurnax says, "What is better - To be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?".

In DMC you could sort of take that concept and spin it, asking, "What is worse - To be born evil, or to abandon your good nature through choice?" An argument could easily be made that humans are worse than demons, because they are intrinsically good and yet decide to perpetrate evil themselves.

What I'm saying is there's a number of ways they could do a Sparda-turning story like that.

Two things, though: Is this straight from the TokyoPop translation? The version I read may be fan-translated, so it might not be accurate...might also explain why I never found this line.

I have the physical book, it is indeed in there, right around when he's in the run down hospital going after Jessica.

 

[Veloran]

@Veloran Can't you and Wolf have a private conversation about all this or something? These long, mostly OT posts are getting tiresome.

Ah, sorry, you're probably right. I just figured the OP said it was fine.

 

[Gel]

I will make this succinct because wallsl of text are really tiresome to read:

Okay c'mon man, you're overestimating my opinion of Trish at least a little bit. All I'm saying is, there are reasons why she might intentionally set up a situation to get Dante into trouble.

What peaked my interest was that official interview you talk and that apparently subverts everything we knew so far, but that is past now.
Now going to center of the thread itself:
While DMC story had some potential, it fails miserably transmitting its supposed "deep meanings":
-Demons with good "heart" are not good at all: Trish sees human lives and well being as expendable as little mouses for the sake of her thrill and enjoyment ;Dante is written in a such who gives more vibes than he hates humans and is doing what he is because his "old man" ( It even seems he hates his own old man with all his guts, when its supposed he likes him)
-He is not a humanity protector.If he was/is, narrative fails considerably at that point.
-He is a lazy bum, thing he wasn't in DMC1, per example.
-Narrative focus too much in the worst of Humanity, while praising "good demons" (Sparda's files proves exactly the opposite: no matter how good you are, you're a demon)
- Humans are treated as they were all worthless or just ignored. ( Narrative makes Dante look as a total hypocrite who preaches about things he doesn't care/understand /believe.( Which is the opposite of what is shown in DmC narrative)

And on and on...
Now, if Capcom can do better, I'm ok with DMC5; if not I'm all for a DmC2.

 

[Foxtrot94]

@Gel
Don't take it personally, but most of your points sound like personal and arbitrary interpretation affected by your own resentment rather than stemming from any kind of reasonable and detached analysis. Some of that stuff, literally look like you got them out of thin air.

Demons with good "heart" are not good at all: Trish sees human lives and well being as expendable as little mouses for the sake of her thrill and enjoyment

Where did you get all this from, when in DMC4 she literally offers to go evacuate the town's people herself?

Dante is written in a such who gives more vibes than he hates humans and is doing what he is because his "old man" ( It even seems he hates his own old man with all his guts, when its supposed he likes him)

Same thing. Dante hates Sparda? Hates humans? What? Where did you get all this from. Nowhere in the games I remember him showing hate towards humans. Sparda, yes, he refuses to acknowledge him in the first part of DMC3 but then he grows to accept his legacy and even though later on in the games he does show signs of not caring all that much about him, saying that he hates his guts is a pretty big stretch.

He is a lazy bum, thing he wasn't in DMC1, per example.

That's only true in the anime. Wherever else he pretty much acts like he did back in DMC1 started. Starts acting detached like he he doesn't care, laying on his chair and feet on the desk maybe uttering a couple jokes, yet when he gets signs that something's bad is up, he springs off of his chair and gets to action.

I ain't counting DMC2 cause he acts pretty much nothing like himself there, that much is true.

Narrative makes Dante look as a total hypocrite who preaches about things he doesn't care/understand /believe.

I take it you're referring to the scene with Agnus where he says that "humans have something that demons don't". He knows exactly what he's talking about. He's already seen someone trying to acquire his father's power but failing to control it because he totally gave up on humanity, his drive being the exact opposite of Sparda's, someone who did embrace human values.

He is not a humanity protector.If he was/is, narrative fails considerably at that point.

Finally a point that I can see where it's coming from. Indeed, that side of his character was never focused on too much.

Narrative focus too much in the worst of Humanity, while praising "good demons"

And that's another one. I too would prefer if they moved on from that theme, two games are enough as I see it.

 

[Gel]

Where did you get all this from, when in DMC4 she literally offers to go evacuate the town's people herself?

After she caused the mess herself and a lot of people already died.

Same thing. Dante hates Sparda? Hates humans? What? Where did you get all this from. Nowhere in the games I remember him showing hate towards humans. Sparda, yes, he refuses to acknowledge him in the first part of DMC3 but then he grows to accept his legacy and even though later on in the games he does show signs of not caring all that much about him, saying that he hates his guts is a pretty big stretch.

All he does is to complain: he takes too much time to enter in action. Same with his father: Vergil reminds his father, which he loves and hates at same time.

That's only true in the anime. Wherever else he pretty much acts like he did back in DMC1 started. Starts acting detached like he he doesn't care, laying on his chair and feet on the desk maybe uttering a couple jokes, yet when he gets signs that something's bad is up, he springs off of his chair and gets to action.

In DMC4 he acts in a way it seems he was going to kick Lady out of his office , only lately ( and lazily) he gets up.

I take it you're referring to the scene with Agnus where he says that "humans have something that demons don't". He knows exactly what he's talking about. He's already seen someone trying to acquire his father's power but failing to control it because he totally gave up on humanity, his drive being the exact opposite of Sparda's, someone who did embrace human values.

While he spends all anime complain how bad humans are.

Finally a point that I can see where it's coming from. Indeed, that side of his character was never focused on too much.

It's supposed to be his strong point, but nobody cares into making it evident.

And that's another one. I too would prefer if they moved on from that theme, two games are enough as I see it.

All DMC premise is about how worthy are humans of being protected, even if some are rotten apples. Unfortunately they focus too much in the rotten apples.

 

[Foxtrot94]

After she caused the mess herself and a lot of people already died.

Your argument was that he does it for her own enjoyment. You know full well just as much as me and everyone else that she gave in Sparda (which was useless to the Order anyway, without Sparda's blood) to gain the Order's trust and infiltrate the inner circle. Personal search for thrill has nothing to do with it.

In DMC4 he acts in a way it seems he was going to kick Lady out of his office , only lately ( and lazily) he gets up.

You got that from that scene? How? He was totally chill. Kicking Lady out?!

Also, he lazily gets up? If springing off his chair and bumping his fist on the table denotes laziness to you... okay. :laugh:

While he spends all anime complain how bad humans are.

I haven't seen the anime in a while, but I don't remember that. I feel like it's another exaggeration of yours. But anyway, of course he doesn't believe humans are totally good. He did see the bad side of 'em after all.

All DMC premise is about how worthy are humans of being protected, even if some are rotten apples. Unfortunately they focus too much in the rotten apples.

And on showing how such rotten apples can cause suffering and pain to the decent people, which fulfills the premise you said. It got the point across with Dante and Lady, it did with Nero and Kyrie. The problem of focusing a lot on the duality theme is not that it doesn't serve its purpose, that it does do, but rather that it's become stale, in the sense that we got the message already, there's no need to push it further, it becomes boring to watch.

 

[Gel]

Your argument was that he does it for her own enjoyment. You know full well just as much as me and everyone else that she gave in Sparda (which was useless to the Order anyway, without Sparda's blood) to gain the Order's trust and infiltrate the inner circle. Personal search for thrill has nothing to do with it.

Sorry, but I disgress. She doesn't gather precious information at all: she doesn't know what the old man was up to, she didn't inform Dante about Nero, etc.As much she escalated that for fun and Dante to clean the mess after.

You got that from that scene? How? He was totally chill. Kicking Lady out?!

Very much when he says "Trish!", I was waiting him to tell her to kick Lady out.

Also, he lazily gets up? If springing off his chair and bumping his fist on the table denotes laziness to you... okay.

The guy looks totally drunk and lazy. Lady lampshades the lazy part.

I haven't seen the anime in a while, but I don't remember that. I feel like it's another exaggeration of yours. But anyway, of course he doesn't believe humans are totally good. He did see the bad side of 'em after all.

So he should spare himself of looking an idiot preaching about trusting in Humanity to Vergil or to other characters, if he knows it isn't true.
Now compares this to a DmC Dante totally bent over in protecting the human kind..Capcom lost its aim.

 

[Foxtrot94]

She doesn't gather precious information at all: she doesn't know what the old man was up to

Although it is not shown, we can very much deduce that she did know Sanctus was up for something bad, since Dante, from doubtful as he was at first, ends up going for the kill.

So he should spare himself of looking an idiot preaching about trusting in Humanity to Vergil or to other characters, if he knows it isn't true.

It's not like it isn't true. In his adventures in fact, at least in the games, the evil humans are a minority compared to the rest. For example, you can't say that Sanctus' evil ass is representative of the entire population of Fortuna. Hell, even the Order itself is not evil, as most of its members are just misguided by the old man and have good intentions, as Credo was living symbol of.

Very much when he says "Trish!", I was waiting him to tell her to kick Lady out.

The guy looks totally drunk and lazy. Lady lampshades the lazy part.

See, this is what I meant when I said

Don't take it personally, but most of your points sound like personal and arbitrary interpretation affected by your own resentment rather than stemming from any kind of reasonable and detached analysis. Some of that stuff, literally look like you got them out of thin air.

Drunk? What?!

Lazy? Yes at first he does look lazy but heck, I said it twice already, whenever he senses something bad is up, he literally springs up and rushes to it. He did it with Lady, and he did it with Trish in the ending, where he slammed his magazine aside and rushed to arm himself.
In pretty much every game he is shown going from relaxed to active and fizzy at any sign of danger. In the almost exact same kind of sequence every time, even, I would say: he sits on the chair with his feet on the desk and then when something happens he jumps out of it like a spring.

And when he called for Trish, it's pretty evident to me he was calling her to go investigate together, certainly not to kick Lady out. You can't seriously believe that, come on now.

I seriously think you're stretching some things soooooo out of proportion and purposefully ignoring other things. It's like me saying that the Predator in the first movie was a total pussy cause he eventually lost to Dutch, when he was kicking his ass all sequence long before, and lost because of Dutch's wits.

 

[Gel]

Although it is not shown, we can very much deduce that she did know Sanctus was up for something bad, since Dante, from doubtful as he was at first, ends up going for the kill.

The situation could be solved when Dante shot Sanctus, which didn't happened because he didn't know Sanctus had a certain thing going on for him. Trish most certainly didn't check that.Not only that, her disguised was so lousy the old guy was on her from the very begging and dressing like a stripper in the middle of those religious people wasn't a good step: she did that to mocking them and the work bombed in her face.

It's not like it isn't true. In his adventures in fact, at least in the games, the evil humans are a minority compared to the rest. For example, you can't say that Sanctus' evil ass is representative of the entire population of Fortuna. Hell, even the Order itself is not evil, as most of its members are just misguided by the old man and have good intentions, as Credo was living symbol of.

So why the mocking of that people? Why their belief are disdained and mocked with a "May the Savior be with you!As if..."? Because their are idiots according to certain individuals.Why the joyful destruction of that place?Because it was fun.
Credo was far superior to Dante in DMC4. Shame the wrong guy had to die.

And when he called for Trish, it's pretty evident to me he was calling her to go investigate together, certainly not to kick Lady out. You can't seriously believe that, come on now.

Believe in me: I'm not alone in this thought.

DMC4 was so butchered, so badly executed that is a stain in the franchise. Any interesting point of the story was simply erased to insert genital displaying and cunnilingus , because sex sells .
But the most insulting point is that mess was made to women.

 

[Foxtrot94]

So why the mocking of that people? Why their belief are disdained and mocked with a "May the Savior be with you!As if..."?

Are you serious? Are you actually trying to sell an in-game taunt (not even made by Dante, which was the object of your post) as a legitimate argument of discussion?

Also, when you know for a fact that the Savior is not a real entity come to save the populace as Sanctus made the people believe, effectively misguiding the poor citidens, but rather a puppet to serve his evil purposes, can you really go ahead and think it's bad to mock it? Neither Trish nor Dante expressed any mocking towards the people's actual religious beliefs, just towards the Savior, cause they knew it was a farce.

Why the joyful destruction of that place?Because it was fun.

What are you talking about? Why the destruction? Uhm... cause there's a massive, Godzilla-sized superpowered staute shooting lasers all over the place? What's fun have to do with anything?

Believe in me: I'm not alone in this thought.

Aside from the fact that you're the first ever that I hear that argument from, even supposing there are others, how does that make that argument automatically valid or sensible? There's still also some people that believe the Earth is flat and the Moon landing was a farce.

DMC4 was so butchered, so badly executed

And in a lot of ways, I agree. Can't not to. My point is that there are legit and sensible complaints I've heard people bring up over the years, and there are these uber stretched, spite-deformed ones, which to me are little different than stuff like "DmC Dante is emo cause his hair" or "Nero is emo cause Kyrie".

 

[Gel]

Also, when you know for a fact that the Savior is not a real entity come to save the populace as Sanctus made the people believe, effectively misguiding the poor citidens, but rather a puppet to serve his evil purposes, can you really go ahead and think it's bad to mock it? Neither Trish nor Dante expressed any mocking towards the people's actual religious beliefs, just towards the Savior, cause they knew it was a farce.

They are talking about Sparda, their savior, not the statue.they don't know about that.
In fact only a person defended their belief and it was Lady with a "Peaceful worship should not be condemned."It's a taunt and it's in game, is any valid as any other excuse.

What are you talking about? Why the destruction? Uhm... cause there's a massive, Godzilla-sized superpowered staute shooting lasers all over the place? What's fun have to do with anything?

Dante had a job to do, Trish escalated that out of proportions because it amused her, in the end all the city was turned in ruins and their habitants in extreme poverty.That statue would never worked without the sword.

Aside from the fact that you're the first ever that I hear that argument from, even supposing there are others, how does that make that argument automatically valid or sensible? There's still also some people that believe the Earth is flat and the Moon landing was a farce.

Where are you been all these years?

And in a lot of ways, I agree. Can't not to. My point is that there are legit and sensible complaints I've heard people bring up over the years, and there are these uber stretched, spite-deformed ones, which to me are little different than stuff like "DmC Dante is emo cause his hair" or "Nero is emo cause Kyrie".

Which are as valid as saying " I don't like the way Vergil execute these move" or" I don't like that DT".DMC4 is badly if compared with its ancestors and have all its story cut in order of having the lowest form of fanservice.
Only Nero, Kyrie and Credo were spared of that fate.

 

[Foxtrot94]

They are talking about Sparda, their savior, not the statue.they don't know about that.

They don't know about that, even though they literally saw it was in fact just a statue?

It's a taunt and it's in game, is any valid as any other excuse.

Girl, you can't use a gameplay element like that one to back up a point about what's in the game's script.

Trish escalated that out of proportions because it amused her

Oh, this argument again... Look, you can argue that it was a stupid decision, to hand over Sparda, and I agree, but your insistence on saying she did that for her own amusement is pure arbitrary speculation on your part. Everybody knows the real reason, as stupid as it is, and I spelled it out for you. I am not contesting the fact that it was a dumb plot point, but rather your determination to sell your speculation as a fact, even though you yourself worded it as a consequence of your own reasoning (as farfethched as I argue that it is).

Where are you been all these years?

Mah... Out of the realm of strawman arguments, it seems.

 

[Gel]

They don't know about that, even though they literally saw it was in fact just a statue?

People said it as same way as some of us say "God be with you!" and I highly doubt anyone has seen god. Populace never saw the statue, but they know Sparda as saved them somewhere in the past.

Girl, you can't use a gameplay element like that one to back up a point about what's in the game's script.

Why not? As far as I know taunts reflect character's personalities.

Oh, this argument again... Look, you can argue that it was a stupid decision, to hand over Sparda, and I agree, but your insistence on saying she did that for her own amusement is pure arbitrary speculation on your part. Everybody knows the real reason, as stupid as it is, and I spelled it out for you. I am not contesting the fact that it was a dumb plot point, but rather your determination to sell your speculation as a fact, even though you yourself worded it as a consequence of your own reasoning (as farfethched as I argue that it is).

It is how I see that ,nothing says it wasn't. Why do you seem so annoyed about my interpretation being different than yours?

Mah... Out of the realm of strawman arguments, it seems.

What? Don't tell me you never saw someone complaining on how Dante and other behave in that particular game or how dismissive he is towards Lady while she is telling him the situation. He is entertained with her breasts instead of paying attention to her words, his presence in the game is like partying in a funeral, Trish and him joking while Credo is dying and on and on, and you saying this comes from nowhere?!Are you sure we belong to the same fanbase?!Everyone acts silly and out of character and you still find my opinion to be made?!

This already got to far and too OT.If you want you can PM me and we solve this in private.