The odd morality.

[AlchemistFromEden]

Yeah, and Dante couldn't hit anything with his pistols either. The whole scene ended up as a total farce, and this is despite the fact that they actually ratcheted up the tension pretty well up to the shot. The second Vergil fires it turns derpy.

dante probably wasn't trying to hit anything with his pistols, he was just trying to get kat and shield her with his body, you people are looking way too into this

 

[KaizenShio]

dante probably wasn't trying to hit anything with his pistols, he was just trying to get kat and shield her with his body, you people are looking way too into this

what do you mean YOU PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!! Do you want to fight Brah?!!!? Do you even Lift!!??

 

[Macabre]

1 - Who was going to raise that demon spawn? Vergil? He was willing to leave Kat to die. If he'd do that to a human - even though he's apparently trying to 'save' the human race - what he wouldn't do to a demon? Who else, Dante? What, the party kid who gets his kicks from strippers dressed as angels, who prefers to work alone?

These are all interesting points, and for either of them to undertake such a responsibility would require the events the characters go through to influence them and have them come to decisions which they wouldn't have at the beginning of their arc. "Character development" if you will.

2 - He bit his lip. I took his reaction to be 'whoa, I DID IT WHOOO!!! My ebil plan is actually going to work, hehehe' rather than him being horrified. Have you ever seen Vergil look horrified? I have - go back to the cutscene where he's arguing with Dante about saving Kat. I think he looks kinda horrified that Dante is trying to butcher his plans.

I think the reaction shot is intentionally ambiguous. My favourite interpretation is that Vergil hit her by accident and is just as shocked as everyone else. At least that interpretation is funny.

3 - I think it has more to do with Dante being a man of his word than him recognizing that 'a life is a life' (plus, he was more likely thinking in terms of a life FOR a life - hence the trade) This chic orchestrated the destruction of his family.

We don't know that. Fan conjecture again.

4 - Vergil didn't make any promises, so he didn't really do anything wrong by killing her. PLUS - he killed her with a bullet only because she was weak and injured from her battle with Dante. It seems legit to me, for anyone who thinks it's BS. Ever seen the end of DMC3 where they do Jackpot? Same thing people, c'mon.

During a hostage trade, as with any trade, it is the honourable thing to ensure the exchange occurs without either items being harmed, and it's especially outrageous when it's two defenceless non-combatants who are killed by the betrayal.

Also, Lillith had had several hours to recuperate between her battle with Dante and the exchange, so she really should have been back to full strength by then as well as the child. What's more, Jackpot killing blows historically are superpowered attacks with multiple character contributing power to them in order to weaken a greater demon, never to kill them.

 

[Macabre]

dante probably wasn't trying to hit anything with his pistols, he was just trying to get kat and shield her with his body, you people are looking way too into this

Dante has never shown an apprehension to straight up brutalizing police officers before (Flashbacks) and if this was what NT were trying to convey they should have at least shown the SWATs trying to take cover in reply to Dante's gunfire.

Do you know what SWAT teams do during open combat situations? They erect portable bullet-proof shielding for small arms fire and set up snipers on surrounding buildings to cover possible shooters. It seems Antonaides did as much research on police procedure as he did on what the word Nephilim means.

 

[EvilX-81]

Heh, that part reminded me of the last Star Trek film, with Kirk aggravating Young Spock under Old Spock's orders.

Vergil: Brother, I need you to go to Mundas, and lure him away from the gate. Remember that he is intractable; an immortal who has suffered and perpetrated every depravity imaginable, with patience that shames mountains. To get his attention, to even warrant a single thought from him, you will have to be absolutely intolerable, far beyond the comprehension of mortal men. You will have to be, the most annoying cumstain in the entire universe. Can you do it?

Dante: lol ur hair is faggy

I wish the strategy conversation would've went something like that. Reminds me of that Simpsons episode where Homer has to make Flanders angry so he can vent as well.

 

[AlchemistFromEden]

Dante has never shown an apprehension to straight up brutalizing police officers before (Flashbacks) and if this was what NT were trying to convey they should have at least shown the SWATs trying to take cover in reply to Dante's gunfire.

Do you know what SWAT teams do during open combat situations? They erect portable bullet-proof shielding for small arms fire and set up snipers on surrounding buildings to cover possible shooters. It seems Antonaides did as much research on police procedure as he did on what the word Nephilim means.

or he just used creative freedom, because you know, that exists and this isn't a realistic story -__- just because its more believable than the other dmcs doesn't mean that its supposed to be hyper realistic like heavy rain

 

[Macabre]

or he just used creative freedom, because you know, that exists and this isn't a realistic story -__- just because its more believable than the other dmcs doesn't mean that its supposed to be hyper realistic like heavy rain

Really dude, you're not making a great impression by referring to Heavy Rain as a hyper realistic work of fiction.

Besides that I believe in creative freedom and the fact that you can be fast-and-loose with realism in a setting with dimension-hopping Non-Nephilim, but by making the enemy incompetant all the narrative does is make the story as a whole weaker. If villians don't use common sense or logical tactics just to make the heroes look better we can't take them seriously, so we can't take the heroes seriously.

It's the same problem with the morality of the villians; by being so two dimensional, especially with dealing with such real world issues as the debt crisis, media corruption and...soft drink doping, it over simplifies complex concepts and ends up insulting the viewer.

 

[KaizenShio]

I was never insulted by anything and frankly im glad they did over simplified the story if i wanted to play something complicated I would easily would have waited for some thing else like the new GTA or the Last of Us... I See what your saying though they said to give you a story but you think they failed to give you a story

 

[ZeroLove]

*facepalm* Morgan isn't pointing out character flaws. The series as a whole fails to portray women as capable without overly sexualizing them at the same time. Or instead it portrays them as victims who need a man's help instead of getting the job done themselves. And yes, that's sexist. And no, you don't have to be a feminist to see that.

Usually, in real life, capable women aren't looking sexy. However, sex sells and since the majority of gamers (within this genre) are male, then giving the chicks some sexy appearance helps selling the game. Yeah, it is sexist, but that's how our world is put together. It works! No one wants to play some ugly chick, unless you're an ugly chick yourself with low self-esteem problems who wants to feel a boost of false self-confidence that ugly chicks can be cool too. Of course they can, but do you really need a game to tell you that?

There's something called oversexualization though, which is sexualization to a point where it just seems overly unnecessary. I think Lady was oversexualized in DMC4. Bayonetta is oversexualized. The women in Mortal Kombat are oversexualized. And that's when I think it is just too much.

However, Trip from Enslaved and Kat in DmC are still quite capable in certain fields that supports the main characters. They are, as Vergil would have said, useful.

 

[Macabre]

I was never insulted by anything and frankly im glad they did over simplified the story if i wanted to play something complicated I would easily would have waited for some thing else like the new GTA or the Last of Us...

The problem is that they claimed that DmC would be this devilishly clever opus with a deep narrative centred on topical themes that would shame the "childish" story telling of the previous games, and generally condescended to and insulted every fan of the series by doing so. The story we got has allusions to depth, but it's about as superficial as Ms Carolina.

I wouldn't be nearly as offended if it had jsut been advertised as a rollicking "**** da po-lice" escapist fantasy, but when the term "Shakespearean" is tossed around like it was I reserve the right to feel lied to.

 

[ZeroLove]

I wouldn't be nearly as offended if it had jsut been advertised as a rollicking "**** da po-lice" escapist fantasy, but when the term "Shakespearean" is tossed around like it was I reserve the right to feel lied to.

That was just her own opinion about it. She felt it had a "Shakespearean" feel to it, but that is just HER opinion, that's just how SHE feels. It wasn't a promise made to fans. That you chose to take her word for it was up to you.

 

[Macabre]

Usually, in real life, capable women aren't looking sexy. However, sex sells and since the majority of gamers (within this genre) are male, then giving the chicks some sexy appearance helps selling the game. Yeah, it is sexist, but that's how our world is put together. It works! No one wants to play some ugly chick, unless you're an ugly chick yourself with low self-esteem problems who wants to feel a boost of false self-confidence that ugly chicks can be cool too. Of course they can, but do you really need a game to tell you that?

It certainly wouldn't hurt Zero. I honestly don't think I've ever seen someone tried to defend media's obsession with superficially attractive characters, so you've managed to impress me. Honestly, what about this game wouldn't be significantly improved if Kat was less attractive, even ugly? She's ostensiably an abuse victim, and yet she doesn't have any visual scars or imperfections to demonstrate it as part of her character design? Wouldn't it make Dante seem like a deeper person if he's able to look beyond her appearance to sympathize with, or even love her?

Doesn't anyone else miss Dante when he looked like this? I mean look at him; this is the face of a poor bastard who has been a victim of physical abuse and a generally ****ty life, not this:

This twat hasn't missed a meal or had his nose broken once. Screw this guy; bring back Meth Dante.

There's something called oversexualization though, which is sexualization to a point where it just seems overly unnecessary. I think Lady was oversexualized in DMC4. Bayonetta is oversexualized. The women in Mortal Kombat are oversexualized. And that's when I think it is just too much.

We are going to need to have some serious words about the nature of sexuality vis-a-vis Bayonetta young man.

However, Trip from Enslaved and Kat in DmC are still quite capable in certain fields that supports the main characters. They are, as Vergil would have said, useful.

Useful, but not empowered. Clinging to the male character's coat tails constantly, never independently resolving problems or fighting their own battles.

It's like saying your wife is empowered because she does your ironing.

 

[Macabre]

That was just her own opinion about it. She felt it had a "Shakespearean" feel to it, but that is just HER opinion, that's just how SHE feels. It wasn't a promise made to fans. That you chose to take her word for it was up to you.

Those mini-docs were made in-house by Ninja Theory: every word in them was strictly pre-rehearsed. Hell I wouldn't be surprised if Tameem scripted them.

And the rest of Tameem's comments still stand on the subject of making a "deep" story.

 

[ZeroLove]

It certainly wouldn't hurt Zero. I honestly don't think I've ever seen someone tried to defend media's obsession with superficially attractive characters, so you've managed to impress me. Honestly, what about this game wouldn't be significantly improved if Kat was less attractive, even ugly? She's ostensiably an abuse victim, and yet she doesn't have any visual scars or imperfections to demonstrate it as part of her character design? Wouldn't it make Dante seem like a deeper person if he's able to look beyond her appearance to sympathize with, or even love her?

Doesn't anyone else miss Dante when he looked like this? I mean look at him; this is the face of a poor ******* who has been a victim of physical abuse and a generally ****ty life, not this:

This twat hasn't missed a meal or had his nose broken once. Screw this guy; bring back Meth Dante.



We are going to need to have some serious words about the nature of sexuality vis-a-vis Bayonetta young man.




Useful, but not empowered. Clinging to the male character's coat tails constantly, never independently resolving problems or fighting their own battles.

It's like saying your wife is empowered because she does your ironing.

I miss that. I am all into imperfections. A crooked nose, scars, stuff like that. The all-clean and perfect look never was my thing. For example, Trish in DMC4... She is a beautiful and sexy demon lady, but she has a rather big and blocky nose.

And I miss that Dante was smoking...

But anyways, as for empowered women... In real life, empowered women like to be sexy as well. Dress up, wear high heels, seductive make-up etc.

And why does Kat need to be an empowered woman? She is a human girl who had a rough life and who knows magic. She is physically weak, yes, but her abilities helps Dante and Vergil to such an extend that if she wasn't there to help them, they would probably never had gotten so close to Mundus. Kat doesn't need to be physically strong, she is a SUPPORT character! But her role is damn important!

 

[Macabre]

And why does Kat need to be an empowered woman? She is a human girl who had a rough life and who knows magic. She is physically weak, yes, but she her abilities helps Dante and Vergil to such an extend that if she wasn't there to help them, they would probably never had gotten so close to Mundus. Kat doesn't need to be physically strong, she is a SUPPORT character! But her role is damn important!

It's more of a worrying trend in NT's work that I've noticed. You know, apart from the racism.

In previous DMC every female (Apart from Kyrie) has a combat presence and is a powerhouse in her own right. Hell, it wouldn't have taken much effort to have Kat use hermetic seals, enchanted molotovs and what-have-you to have a combat style of her own and kick some demon ass. Yet this is of course a juvenile power fantasy for misogynistic eight-year-old boys, so we can't have any empowered women.

 

[ZeroLove]

It's more of a worrying trend in NT's work that I've noticed. You know, apart from the racism.

In previous DMC every female (Apart from Kyrie) has a combat presence and is a powerhouse in her own right. Hell, it wouldn't have taken much effort to have Kat use hermetic seals, enchanted molotovs and what-have-you to have a combat style of her own and kick some demon ass. Yet this is of course a juvenile power fantasy for misogynistic eight-year-old boys, so we can't have any empowered women.

I think you read too much into it. Not every person, male or female character, needs to be "empowered", a powerhouse etc. It is alright to have somewhat weak characters in the game too. Kat is still cool even though she isn't a super woman.

 

[KaizenShio]

i almost feel like your comparing Kat to princess peach who has no inherit value other than to bake and clean and sing melodies..... My god....... IT MAKES SENSE NOW..... who else is gonna be in the kitchen making mario a sandwich :troll:

 

[KaizenShio]

and empowered does not have to mean Badass pew pew pew Bang bang if she can at least do what she can at all times than shes pretty empowered already

 

[Macabre]

I think you read too much into it. Not every person, male or female character, needs to be "empowered", a powerhouse etc. It is alright to have somewhat weak characters in the game too. Kat is still cool even though she isn't a super woman.

I'll say again, it's not just about DmC, but rather a general contempt for the female gender over the whole body of NT's work. The sum of the parts add up to a disconcerting whole.

And I didn't say Kat had to be a super woman either; Lady's fighting style and the scenes demonstrating it clearly show that she has to play evasively against her adversaries in order to prevail against demons (Even if the boss fight against her has you slapping her with a sword like a wiffle ball bat, which was pretty silly). She has to use mundane handguns which require constant reloading and customized weapons we can only presume she prepped herself ahead of time in order to stand a chance. Kat could have had a fighting style which involves setting traps and improvised weapons to get the upper hand.

Really what I'd have liked would be at least one scene where you fight alongside her, with her giving you the advantage against adversaries who you would otherwise struggle with like she did with the Hunter. Once more however that would require using the gameplay to develop the story and help the player bond with the characters instead of deadpan exposition, so never mind.

 

[ZeroLove]

I'll say again, it's not just about DmC, but rather a general contempt for the female gender over the whole body of NT's work. The sum of the parts add up to a disconcerting whole.

I'm sorry, Macabre, but I disagree. Like Kaizen said...

and empowered does not have to mean Badass pew pew pew Bang bang if she can at least do what she can at all times than shes pretty empowered already