Angel
Is not rat, is hamster
As you wish. I think the fun ended for you when you realised I wasn't your own personal staff member to wield at those you dislike. Go and be disruptive somewhere else.
Why the Yamato is the way it is in DmC
- Thread starter OppressedWriter
- Start date
Dark Drakan
Well-known Member
Silly & very immature that you still didn't learn after so many warnings & a temp ban... sigh oh well we wont lose any sleep if you cant listen & learn from mistakes. Im disappointed by the sheer lack of maturity & petty attitude you have shown on these boards, we gave you a second chance despite our better judgement & you abused it & were disrespectful throughout. Maybe we wont be so lenient with others and second chances after this display & general lack of respect.
Some members from this thread will be closely monitored now too after their attitude in this thread (and others). We are bored of the arguments & lack of respect between members so warnings/bans will be forthcoming to those who do not obey the rules and continue to blatantly ignore or skim over our warnings.
Laws of physics in real life don't necessarily apply to a video-game. The game decides which is a heavy attack and wat is lighter. In DMC, A heavy attack is a dare which will leave us open for quite some time during the time we concentrate to put muscle behind the attack. For eg: weapons like beowulff, gilgamesh and dante's demon weapons. Their characteristics are basically the time they take to land a heavy attack. We can even charge the attacks. But moves like real impact, rising dragon, volcano and aerial moves are mostly supernatural and in no way obey laws of physics. So we can't testify video-game moves with real-life physics. May be some of the moves but they are a small portion considering the wide move-set of vergil.
To me, DmC vergil's weapon is quite satisfactory in modern day interpretation as a weapon used by a victim of society that does not agree with one's beliefs. As a source of justice that society would not agree. I don't mind it's design but i am convinced with moveset given in VD.
EDIT: And before you say that "we were not discussing about dante"...lol.....I will explain myself that i used dante's moves to explain that laws of physics don't necessarily apply to DMC games. Even for vergil, there are supernatural moves like judgement cuts and aerial moves even tony jaa would not pull off.
Kam
Wall of text crits you for 600
I'm not going to give you grief for bringing up dante, you actually did mention some very relevant things
it's true, physics aren't exactly the most respected law in video games, and a lot of basic rules are bent or broken for the sake of aesthetics, game mechanics, or fun. I'm actually glad you brought it up because I forgot to in my earlier rambling. Dante is a great example of those rules being broken the right way; his heavy weapons hit very hard, but the swings come out very slowly. They don't just wind up slow, but they also travel slow. In reality, speed is a big factor in how much force a hit will carry, but from a game mechanics standpoint, it wold obviously be overpowered if dante had a weapon that was both very fast and hit very hard. Speed and power are rules that are often broken in video games, but force distribution rules (particularly leverage) are not. Even though dante's axe is swinging slowly, it's still a proper swing, his form is good.
Why this arbitrary choice? Who decided which rules were and were not okay to break? Your eyes did. You can't actually see the built up force of a moving object, you can only guess at how much it had after the fact based on the apparent force delivered, which is why few question a character swinging a weapon that weighs more than their body. It's okay for nightmare to have a sword the size of a tree, but nobody is swinging a hammer with the axe mounted only halfway up the shaft. Both would be breaking rules, but are they actually doing the same thing?
This is essentially the difference in rule breaking going on between dante and vergil. Dante's attacks look awesome because they're carried out with a visible degree of expertise despite the apparent limitations of his scrawny body and absurd weapons. Vergil, on the other hand, is breaking rules in the exact opposite way -- he's swinging a completely realistic weapon with very little expertise. He's got attacks we're expected to believe are power hits, but his posture is completely wrong to deliver power at any speed. Helmbreaker is an overhead drop where he lands on his feet before completing the swing (he may as well have never left the ground) and one of his moves is literally dragon twister with particle effects to make it look less pathetic. Dante breaks rules to look more awesome. Vergil breaks rules by looking like crap but still dealing okay damage.
TL;DR
Dante breaks rules by being proficient with insane weapons that should be beyond the capabilities of someone with his frame to actually swing. Vergil swings a completely ordinary looking weapon with very little expertise and horrible form, but physics and common sense are broken when the attacks end up being viable. They're not viable because you just need to be extra good to make them work, they're viable because they were programmed to be that way regardless of how they look
OppressedWriter
SamD
First, thank you for such a reasoned post. Now, I'm glad you mention that the laws of physics don't really apply in a video game. I feel the same way, and I think developers approximate reality based on the stylistic vision they have for the game they are making. DmC Vergil and DmC Dante both have little animations where they seem to be losing control of the weapons they are using. For example, when Dante swings rebellion in his hacker combo, it literally looks like he is about to lose his grip on the sword. This little touches are supposed to give the impression that these are normal people when contrasted against the absurd displays of power evident in the rest of their moves. I feel Vergil is the same way, especially concerning his rapid slash, he's moving so fast that in order to stop he has to put one foot to the ground like a brake, and when he does it causes him to spin around to face the enemy he just slashed through. So, at least in the case of Vergil, he isn't reacting to the weight of his weapon, but rather the superhuman speed at which he moves.
Now, regarding helmbreaker in DmC, Vergil in DmC has two moves, drive and stomp, that are his versions of a powerful downward attack with the Yamato. The Yamato before DmC never has had a downward helmbreaker style attack, so in keeping with the tradition of only having it be used with one hand, they incorporated a logical downward slash that mimics the gameplay mechanic of a basic rebellion style helmbreaker. Its not supposed to be a power move, it won't break through shields, or stagger enemies like Imprisoners; it's simply a fast downward slash that happens to be called helmbreaker. Also, if it were to suddenly be done with two hands, and was the only move with the Yamato that required two hands, it would feel strangely out of place, and would lead one to wonder well why doesn't Vergil have two handed strikes for other Yamato combos?
In conclusion, I'd be more sympathetic to the arguments against the Yamato helmbreaker if DmC Vergil broke Yamato tradition for all his Yamato moves, and he had a bunch of different strikes some of which were two handed slashes, then I think one could argue well, he should use two hands during his helmbreaker.
On a final side note, all of this still leads me to wonder if the move's name was changed to downward slash would this still be an issue? It would be similar to upper slash except done from above, which is basically what the move is now.
OppressedWriter
SamD
Also, here's some new footage, If you notice, unlike his DMC3 counter part DmC Vergil can chain rapid slash into another move seamlessly, a drastic improvement I think that helps differentiate the move from a typical stinger like attack. This is why it is not necessary for him to immediately sheath his weapon, the point being that it up to the player whether the move is the final move or a move that is a set up to chain into another attack seamlessly. If he immediately sheathed his weapon, it would make it awkward and weird, considering his new ability to seamlessly transition to various other moves. I guess the best default combo to chain is a rising upper slash. Basically, the sheathing is delayed to give the player more agency over Vergil and to avoid making the move feel close ended.
Kam
Wall of text crits you for 600
excellent start! I admire your willingness to put your beliefs up to a side by side comparison, but I can't help but feel you're still cherrypicking your clips. Your unwillingness to put new vergil's helmbreaker alongside old vergil's helm breaker (choosing instead to compare it against dante, of all people) is telling. If you want to be truly neutral in your analysis, you will compare all shared moves, regardless of what weapon they're performed with. If vergil has a bunch of other new moves that fill the same slot, yeah totally compare them. Compare helm breaker against helmbreaker, and then against stomp and meteor slam and every other airborne vertical attack. Be thorough.
for a vergil to vergil comparison, we don't need to see dante. Both vergils have a move called helm breaker, you should be comparing them. Dante's rebellion combo at the beginning of the video is also a waste of space, unless you're planning to go somewhere with that. Second, a comparison of how you can chain the moves out is better suited in a combo video or combat comparison video; in a video about comparing animations, clipping the animations short is non-constructive.
Since you seem to be forgetting exactly what it is I said earlier, I'm going to repeat myself, so you can keep a better focus while you work.
I do not like new vergil's rapidslash and helm breaker animations.
Vergil's meteor smash and stomp moves are among the moves I do like, those look good and combo nicely. That's why I did not say meteor smash and stomp look bad and don't combo well. I said helm breaker looks bad.
Rapidslash can indeed be canceled quickly, and flows more naturally into other moves than the older version of rapidslash. That's why I did not say rapidslash was restricting and didn't flow into combos, I said rapid slash looks bad.
That said, I am eager to see the finished video. I just don't want you leaving out certain comparisons just because you don't like how they look
OppressedWriter
SamD
The Dante clip was just for a part of my response about his stagger animation. I promise to be fair and not include Dante for the finished Vergil move comparison video, out of curiosity, what should I do if a move has additional frames to finish in a side by side? Should I let it go to dark for the one that finishes first to remain objective?
The other clip is just to demonstrate my overall point about why the animation is designed the way it is, although I guess I could still elaborate a bit more by showing how the move works in both games when done near an enemy as I believe the point of rapid slash in DmC is to function like a teleport with damage through an enemy vs DMC3 where it functions very much like Stinger.
One quick question, so if these moves had different names then you wouldn't be criticizing them? The rapid slash in DMC3 functions a lot like stinger, in DmC it is supposed to be an aggressive version of teleporting behind the enemy. Other then that, I don't see how the animations look drastically different. You say you dislike how he spins around and sheathes his sword, and I explained why its different and not immediate. I don't see any drastic visual differences between the two other then the longer frames to sheath his weapon.
The thing is I've never been trying to convince you that the animations in and of themselves are up to your liking. I find them all to look excellent. I can't argue aesthetic preferences, and nor does that conversation interest me in and of itself. I'm merely discussing and like discussing the practical reason certain moves are different or have longer animations. If you haven't noticed, I care above all about the every element reinforces the character's personality and his fighting style and how all of that ties into enriching the game play. If you don't like the animations on a purely aesthetic level, I really can't change your mind nor have I been trying to, my initial response to you simply said, I disagree, and I think Vergil's animations make him look badass.
The other clip is just to demonstrate my overall point about why the animation is designed the way it is, although I guess I could still elaborate a bit more by showing how the move works in both games when done near an enemy as I believe the point of rapid slash in DmC is to function like a teleport with damage through an enemy vs DMC3 where it functions very much like Stinger.
One quick question, so if these moves had different names then you wouldn't be criticizing them? The rapid slash in DMC3 functions a lot like stinger, in DmC it is supposed to be an aggressive version of teleporting behind the enemy. Other then that, I don't see how the animations look drastically different. You say you dislike how he spins around and sheathes his sword, and I explained why its different and not immediate. I don't see any drastic visual differences between the two other then the longer frames to sheath his weapon.
The thing is I've never been trying to convince you that the animations in and of themselves are up to your liking. I find them all to look excellent. I can't argue aesthetic preferences, and nor does that conversation interest me in and of itself. I'm merely discussing and like discussing the practical reason certain moves are different or have longer animations. If you haven't noticed, I care above all about the every element reinforces the character's personality and his fighting style and how all of that ties into enriching the game play. If you don't like the animations on a purely aesthetic level, I really can't change your mind nor have I been trying to, my initial response to you simply said, I disagree, and I think Vergil's animations make him look badass.
Kam
Wall of text crits you for 600
Ultimately it's your choice since it's your video, I'm just saying what I'd like to see since I've been embroiled in discussion on this exact topic for about 4 pages now. I trust you to pick something appropriate if an animation ends well before the other
Shin Muramasa
Metallic Stranger
All I can think of is this:
Vergil's Angel Mode was limited to "specials"; multiple hitting attacks with "one" input. While Demon Mode was like using "command" inputs; attacks changing because of another input such as moving the stick in a direction or holding down a button. I just realized, I don't think Vergil (DMC and DmC) ever used Yamato with both hands outside of cutscenes; DmC Vergil never used Yamato with both hands in-game and in cutscenes as far I remember. Personally, I like the Demon Mode attack, attack, attack combo where Vergil flourishes quickly and swings down. Something about it is beautiful and I think it has to do with the precision taught in kenjustu and its similarity to the usage of a dao where similar movements are made. Chinese martial arts have this grace, which sadly is the only focus and makes them look like "useless" martial arts compared to others, while Japanese martial arts are precise, quick, and rigid. The thing is that the movement used in the combo can be used quickly, if anything it could have been Vergil's normal Angel Mode combo. Demon Mode could have charged combos like Jetstream Sam's charge in sheath attack except Vergil begins with that and continues attacking with chargeable attacks. On the other hand, the obvious strength of using two hands while swinging a sword or anything for that matter could have been Vergil's normal Demon Mode combo.
Kam
Wall of text crits you for 600
wow they really toned that scene down in the anime. He's supposed to lose like 4 arms from that hit.
Shin Muramasa
Metallic Stranger
It's not as bad as 4Kids's censors. Generally anime and other animations such as animated films, cartoons, or animations in general are toned down compared to their manga, graphic novel, or novel origins. Welcome to the NHK, originally a novel, involved lots of drugs and illegal adult content from online that was toned down in the manga adaption and the anime; the manga was more an adaption since it deviates from the novel more so than the anime. I recommend Welcome to the NHK and if you watch it, both the English and Japanese dub are amazing. I feel like Chris Patton for the English dub is more authentic since he apparently suffered from social anxiety like the main character, Tatsuhiro Satou, but since I don't know about the Japanese voice actor, that statement holds little value. It's unlike many media where usually it's about a hero, monsters, etc., but more like Ghost in the Shell, Clannad, and Angel Beats. GiTS examined many philosophical ideas I think. Clannad and Angel Beats dealt with societal issues, which Welcome to the NHK does. Also Neon Genesis Evangelion was apparently the author's feelings and thoughts turned into his work, similarly Welcome to the NHK is basically the author, Tatsuhiko Takimoto's, life experiences made into a novel. Anyway, I digress.
So, yes, a lot of the scenes, usually violent, gory scenes are toned down in many things like Bleach, Naruto, One Piece, Welcome to the NHK, etc. Sometimes though, mostly 4Kids, censor things like accidental crosses or making Japanese cuisine as the most messed up donuts ever seen by mortal eyes.
Edit: Forgot about this:
Dark Drakan
Well-known Member
Nice to finally see a mature discussion, which could have saved a lot of time & effort on everyones part in the first place. Goes to show that people can still discuss without insults and belittling and a better discussion comes from it.
OppressedWriter
SamD
Patience. Here's what I have in the meantime, it's taking unusually long to process, but it should be up soon...
Shin Muramasa
Metallic Stranger
I was suspicious at first and I was right. DMC Vergil holds Yamato edge down, which might explain why he can sheath and draw his sword faster since the blade follows the sheath's contour. DmC Vergil holds Yamato edge up which might explain why he has to "spin" Yamato more to make to align with its sheath. Also, from what I know, katanas were worn edge up to reduce the grinding on the edge since gravity would push it down and the blunt side would come in contact more. After a certain period of time, katanas were generally worn through a belt; you could turn the blade so you could draw or sheath it without the weird movements DmC Vergil forces upon himself. Taichi is another way to wear a katana where it's strapped to a belt and worn edge down. It's easier on horseback to wear a katana taichi-style, I think, but with spears and bows being "better" weapons on horseback and being easier to make and train soldiers with spears, blunt objects, bows, rifles, etc. compared to swords, and the increase risk of wearing the edge down through gravity, the taichi way of wearing katanas was abandoned.
Even other swords such as the shaska were worn edge up.
Russian samurai!!! In Soviet Russia, samurai still survive.
Whether its a stylistic or way of being taught, I'm starting to wonder why DmC Vergil chooses to hold Yamato edge up instead of edge down or even switch grips sometimes. Maybe he's like Raiden where he was self-taught and didn't learn proper ways to hold a katana without a belt - not that Raiden doesn't know how to wear/hold a katana without a belt. Or maybe he's like Samuel Rodrigues who was taught to wear his katana tachi-style. Then again, I don't have that much knowledge on sword arts.
Dusk Stalker
" Everybody gets a bullet!" -Axton
DMC 3 Vergil's a bit quicker on the rapid slash
You didn't use DMC 3's Vergils high time but still the helm breaker a bit quicker.
Both basic Yamato combos are similar.
And as for Cross slash, its comparable to Nero more then Vergil. And it delayed a bit between the actions with the Force Edge/Yamato combo for DMC 3 Vergil.
OppressedWriter
SamD
Well, here's the thing, I rarely finish rapid slash in DmC, it's more of a linking move as it can be cancelled into any move at any time. So, for pure comparison's sake I let the whole animation play out, you're not really supposed to use the move's full animation during actual gameplay, think of it like an aggressive dash that puts you behind or close to the enemy.
The reason its shorter and faster in DMC3 is because it works like an AOE stinger, and once you start it, there is no way to cancel it. It's simply a move that only works by itself, there is no chaining ability with DMC3's rapid slash. I think rapid slash in DmC is way more awesome, because of how flexible it is.
Anyway, thank's for watching, I'll have other comparisons as I keep editing, I already have all the footage, I'll put hightime in there in my next update.
Huh. I learned something today. Also, I must learn more about the russian samurai.