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Why the Yamato is the way it is in DmC

Well hey guys what's going on he--?

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Allow me to sum up this thread

Argueargueargueargueargue, someone says something clever/funny, argue
 
Kam said:
Oh hey, it looks awful. Once again, there is absolutely no reason vergil couldn't swing his weapon with two hands
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I'm guessing because he'd have to drop the sheath or put it somewhere, maybe between his teeth, which would either look cool rather silly.

Also I don't see where either looks like they're in a positive position after rapid slash; one slides to a knee, the other arrogantly keeps his back turned while sheathing his sword. But they can do that and not be vulnerable because lol demons r awesome.
 
Kam said:
So, in the end, the truth is that DmC does Vergil wrong. It adds nothing to the myth and lore of the Yamato, and makes it feel like a short, flimsy rebellion clone, put into the hands of someone who is neither fast nor precise.
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Yeah, boy he sure is so weak and slow. Also, even disregarding the injury, this Vergil is not fully in control of all his skills, as he becomes stronger and older, so will his moves, I think you won't argue that this most likely a conscious decision.


Anyway, once again, the rapid slash is designed to weave moves into, it does not require a player to cancel it with trick or trick down, it seamlessly transitions into upperslash or rising slash. You can transition out of rapid slash in a similarly aggressive fashion as DMC3 Vergil but now you have various other choices. It would be stupid to limit the potential applications of a move like rapid slash just so you can have you close ended animation that leaves little room for flexibility.
I repeat, a trick up or trick down is not required, the animations are strung together at the end of rapid slash, so you are misunderstanding the mechanic I am trying to describe. *hits head against wall*

Another thing about rapid slash, the move is supposed something that speeds through an enemy. In DMC3, it feels like a mix between stinger and a weird teleport through enemy mechanic. Since you can't chain any move into it, you just have to rapid slash behind an enemy and then start a fresh animation. In DmC, I feel like it makes way more sense, that he would turn himself around to face the enemy he just dashed through. It just seems like the logical thing to do, fly through an enemy at lighting speed, and then turn around. I mean I guess they could have automatically made it so you just trick up behind an enemy after the movement is finished, but why, all that would do is limit the newly improved system, where you can use any move at any moment during the dash? Considering all this don't you think your anger and hatred towards the animation seems a tad bit absurd.

I don't even know what to say regarding helmbreaker, if it wasn't one handed where you do suppose Vergil would put his sheath for the Yamato. There was a reason the version in DMC3 was with Force Edge. Vergil has never used two hands to hold the Yamato because of his sheath.

And lets say, he held it to the side, like in DMC3 with Force Edge, it'd still be strange and unnecessary, considering there is another heavy attack the player can use, making this one have similar properties would be redundant. The way DmC does it is great, because it doesn't break the single hand only attacks tradition with Yamato yet still finds a way to add more moves for it.

I mean, I guess I should ask, if they named it something else like downward slash then you'd have no problems with it?
 
EvilX-81 said:
I'm guessing because he'd have to drop the sheath or put it somewhere, maybe between his teeth, which would either look cool rather silly.

Also I don't see where either looks like they're in a positive position after rapid slash; one slides to a knee, the other arrogantly keeps his back turned while sheathing his sword. But they can do that and not be vulnerable because lol demons r awesome.
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Yeah, kind of wondering about Kam stating that Vergil should be able to hold Yamato with both his hands. Is Vergil capable of holding Yamato or anything with both his hands? Yes, but Vergil has a sheath which he constantly holds that probably makes it more difficult to hold Yamato and its sheath together. Even though DMC Vergil was perfectly capable of holding a heavier blade (Force Edge) with a thicker handle than Yamato and slamming Force Edge down while holding Yamato, I feel like we're comparing a master (DMC Vergil) to an expert (DmC Vergil). DMC Vergil to me appears to be a master swordsman who kills with the least amount of energy and makes use of economy of motion. DmC Vergil seems is either learning that or has yet to incorporate economy of motion since DmC Vergil does have some unnecessary flourishes to his attacks. At the same time, DMC Vergil can and knows his powers; he understands what he can do and how he can do it. DmC Vergil can use his powers, but he doesn't understand them. We already seen him abusing his doppelganger (or was it DT) and that sort of limited him unless he wants to be corrupted. Whenever DmC Vergil ends up in strange positions, does strange movements, etc. it seems like he's over or under-reaching his powers. When you jab, you don't throw it with a ton of force and when you do a cross/straight, you don't make it weak.

Since DmC is a new installment of the franchise and a reboot at that, I kind of wish, after learning more about iaido and looking at Vergil and Yamato more, that Vergil kept Yamato strapped to a belt. Sure we would lose the cool "slap you with a stick" combo, but it could have given a more different feel with Vergil. Also, with Vergil using Yamato as a cane thing, wouldn't Yamato being a shirasaya be more appropriate?
Shirasaya_RED_M.jpg


Also, I came by a unique sword while searching for "hilt-less swords".
shashka-sabre.jpg

It's called a shaska; it's a Russian sword, technically sabre, but still a sword. I don't know, the shaska has this classy feel and it might have fit DmC Vergil since it looks more inconspicuous than a plain but fully decked out katana - the tsuba alone would raise eyes. The only issue would be DmC Vergil becoming a sabreur (sabre fencer) than an iaidoka (iaido practitioner) and that might will go badly with some fans.
 


I think you two are discussing different things, Sam. He's saying how the animation make him look weird using his sword, he doesn't seem to have some poise and control of what he's doing with both his sword and body, he does not seem able to that's why he looks "weak". I think that's the point.

But anyway, there's a reason why you can't cancel Stingers and Rapid Slashs forever into themselves in earlier DMC entries: these moves are suppose to give an opening to the enemies to hit you if you screw up and use them without any thought (mainly in DMD if some enemies have DT activated). It has to be used wisely, MAINLY rapid slash, i'm trying to improve my Vergil game right now and Rapid Slash is something that you want to use to get away from a group of demons while focusing one that's more isolated, if you use it at the wrong time in DMD it's pretty much death or throwing yourself in a very bad position, it's pretty useful against Abysses and Arachnes although i prefer Stinger on Arachnes. It's made this way to balance the game because if i could Stinger forward and back just by changing the lock-on and cancel the recovery frames from both these moves the characters would have one powerful attack with excessive mobility and that i could easily get away from being punished somehow, if you take a look at Straight, his recovery frames are considerably less than these two other moves, and why? Because it does not travel this much towards an enemy. There's a way to actually cancel the last hit of a "Trillion Stabs" in DMC4 (guard-cancel, i believe) while buffering another one, but i don't really know if it works with Stinger alone. By the way, i'm going too much off-topic, but i hope i clarified this to you.
 
Yeah, but limiting player options instead of creating more challenging enemies isn't something I'd like. I think DMC3 is a million times better than DMC4 by the way.

Anyway, to address your point, I'd seriously argue it was probably less due to balancing and more due to hardware limitations at the time. I don't want to make anyone angry, but DmC takes more from DMC3 than 4, I think 4 is not nearly as fun to play at times due to being overtly balanced.

Yeah, I wish Kam would stop being so rude sounding. I already kinda explained why the animations are part of the character development, both Dante and Vergil have slight instances of excess in their movements because they've yet to become masters, but the way he is arguing is as if the animation is just absolute ****, and it's the worst not because it makes them look weak, but because it objectively looks bad. And on that point, I think he's just being petty.
 
Shin Muramasa said:
Since DmC is a new installment of the franchise and a reboot at that, I kind of wish, after learning more about iaido and looking at Vergil and Yamato more, that Vergil kept Yamato strapped to a belt. Sure we would lose the cool "slap you with a stick" combo, but it could have given a more different feel with Vergil. Also, with Vergil using Yamato as a cane thing, wouldn't Yamato being a shirasaya be more appropriate?
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I was thinking it would've been cool if Vergil used two handed kendo-esque strikes in demon mode, particularly as his main combo, maybe with a demon energy flare that reaches a few feet infront of him in the way that his angel mode spinning sword move has the crowd control.

Though while I'm on it, I really think Vergil could've used a demon mode pause combo too. I love those slow and deliberate strikes, but I can never really find a moment of reason to really use them unless I just feel like it.
 
EvilX-81 said:
I was thinking it would've been cool if Vergil used two handed kendo-esque strikes in demon mode, particularly as his main combo, maybe with a demon energy flare that reaches a few feet infront of him in the way that his angel mode spinning sword move has the crowd control.

Though while I'm on it, I really think Vergil could've used a demon mode pause combo too. I love those slow and deliberate strikes, but I can never really find a moment of reason to really use them unless I just feel like it.
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I'm just thinking though, with all the fan rage they get over the smallest details, if they suddenly decided to make Vergil use Yamato two-handed I bet we would never here the end of it. Maybe your suggestion could work if he projected a spectral blade of some sort, like manifesting his Doppelganger into a literal weapon of demonic fury.

Edit: Oh, a suggestion for those slow deliberate strikes, try doing some fun stuff with the doppelganger delay. You can record the slow combos, and they are pretty neat for being able to do some fun juggling and what not. You can also, use the demon pull between each strike, so there's some room for combo potential there as well.
 
OppressedWriter said:
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He would put the sheath through his belt

Even beltless, it's not like dante doesn't magically stick his sword to his back, would it really be so hard to suspend your disbelief enough for vergil to do the same?

Face it: the animations are terrible, and not because ninja theory was cornered into using those animations for any of the reasons you've listed (he needs to hold the sheath, he's wounded, it's the lore, you can stop the animation before it gets to the bad part so that makes it not a bad animation) but because they actually thought this is what looked good.
 
Kam said:
Even beltless, it's not like dante doesn't magically stick his sword to his back, would it really be so hard to suspend your disbelief enough for vergil to do the same?
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In a fantasy world, everything needs to make sense.

Muh realism.
 
OppressedWriter said:
*Sighs* Couldn't you do the same for Vergil as he is?



No, Kam. You need to face it. Not everyone agrees with you. First, I never had issues with any of the animations. I wasn't trying to hide the rapid slash animation, because it looked bad, or the helmbreaker animation because it was one handed, you're the one that thinks they are terrible, I don't. I was merely pointing out why they were performed the way they were. Secondly, you're the one that comes into my threads, and starts accusing me of plugging videos, whoring myself out. It's like you have a hard on against me. I like DmC, I like making videos, I like sharing them with users at a DmC fan site. Shoot me.

This is why I can't take you seriously. You have this terrible habit of stating your opinions as indisputable fact, when its just bashing under the guise of "constructive criticism" criticism. So, please stop trying to get the last word on my thread. I've given you many reasons why I think the excellent animations are the way they are in DmC; they have always looked absolutely stellar to me. I can't help if you lack the imagination or willingness to accept that there is a narrative reason for why the characters show excess in their movements. It's your inability to politely state your opinion and politely accept other people's opinion that is so frustrating. Every single response from you has reinforced the notion that you're only here to play devils advocate and badmouth DmC (definition of trolling), you don't even play the game, you don't even play DMC4, you just come here to rile up an argument. And then no matter the amount of discussion, you end it the same way, no I'm right, you're wrong.

To put it simply, why even bother to post in a DmC thread discussing a topic that you're absolutely unwilling to change your mind on? You do this on every single topic and thread. You come in throw out your opinion in the most rude and disrespectful manner and then expect people to have a conversation with you. If some unfortunate soul does this, then you berate them for not meeting your impossible to meet standards. It's sad the lengths to which some people love to cause others misery.
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Opinions, eh? Well do you remember this post? Here is where I talk about two specific animations I like the least. But, here's the key point, I say why I don't like them. And the reasons I list are not opinions.

If a slash begins standing and horizontal, but ends with your sword pointed skyward and your knee on the ground, you have wasted part of your swing's force in the wrong direction. Kinetic force is best carried in a straight line, so if your line starts straight and then abruptly curves skyward while you curve groundward, you've just lost a lot of force. That is not an opinion, that is an actual fact. The swing looks bad because it's obvious even at a casual glance that it was a poor swing; all style, no substance.

Vergil is falling straight down during helm breaker. The best way to carry the considerable force of a body dropping out of the sky would holding your sword directly below your center of mass (a straight line), not outstretched in front of you with a single arm so you end up on the ground like a tripod. Classic vergil's helm breaker keeps his legs from touching the ground until the last possible moment, hitting at nearly the same time as the tip of the sword makes contact with the ground. Reboot vergil lands straight legged on his toes, his body leaning forward at almost a 45 degree angle, before his sword hits the ground. Most of the force is lost when the legs hit the ground, most of the rest is lost through angled distribution. Reboot vergil's helm breaker is ****. That is not an opinion, that is a fact. It's called leverage, and can easily be illustrated with vectors actually vector math isn't necessary. Even if you didn't trust the basic rules of leverage, you could prove it to yourself with creative use of trig (a highschool subject)

Two arms can pack a bigger punch than one arm. If vergil was really all about power and substance over style, he would belt the sheath, stop twirling, and hold his two-handed katana in two-hands. The hilt of yamato is over a foot long -- by dimensions yamato is a two-handed katana, not a one handed cavalry katana. That is not an opinion, that is a fact.
 
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