Why judge this game on it's own merits? : An editorial by Mrrandomlulz

[Loopy]

Yeah we have like 600+ pokemon now with like 100+ more on the way.

When I was a kid, there were only 150 pokemon. I don't know how they keep making new pokemon...there are just too many of them. I think I saw one that was a pokemon shaped like an oven.:blink: I think they're running out of ideas.

 

[Stylish Nero]

My real name is Chance. I use to date this girl who'd call me Chancey and it just kind of caught on with everyone else I knew and stuck with people still occasionally calling me that.

I don't think I can do the Pokerap anymore now and that's depressing.

Chance is an unique name. Never heard that one before.

Plus the PokeRap is the least of your concerns.

 

[Stylish Nero]

hold up...HOW THE **** DID WE START TALKING ABOUT EVOLUTION!?!

Chansey that is why.

 

[Chancey289]

Chance is an unique name. Never heard that one before.

.

My mom named me that because there was a chance I wasn't hers.

Ok, just kidding.

 

[Stylish Nero]

My mom named me that because there was a chance I wasn't hers.

Ok, just kidding.

I should give my kid a very distinct name then..............after looking around my kitchen I came up with Crispy.

 

[SugarMoon]

Chance is an unique name. Never heard that one before.

Plus the PokeRap is the least of your concerns.

What in the holy hell? There's ice cream Pokemon now? Haven't played Pokemon since gold. Back when I had me a badass Vaporeon.

 

[DragonMaster2010]

Because Tameem himself said he got inspiration from "They Live" when writing DmC and unlike many governmental conspiracy based stories They Live and DmC are the only ones to use hidden subliminal messages and the fact this non-human species (aliens/demons) controls people through exploiting their daily life and activities.

So because it has those three words, it's a rip off? Um no, it's not the same thing.

Besides DmC rips of....I mean take influence from many other mediums including anime.

I mean DMC, a Japanese made game, does it all of a sudden its label bishonen crap while DmC, a western centric game made to appeal to westerners, does it its okay?

Hypocrisy at its finest.

True, but at least it was one thing and not a whole game copying Bleach. (DMC4)

 

[EllDawn]

My mom named me that because there was a chance I wasn't hers.

Ok, just kidding.

I actually knew a guy named Chance. He was the only chance his parents had at having kids. They couldn't have any of their own. I always thought it was a great reason for the name.

And on topic, since I'm posting anyway, I will at least say that I tend to judge games on their own merits anyway. Not in comparison to the ones made before them. They all tend to be a different experience anyway. It doesn't seem too off to judge the game itself rather than compare it to another one. I'm the same way about remade movies, and movies based on books. To my way of thinking, if you keep comparing everything, you're missing the best part of the game because you're so focused on picking out what's changed, or what's the same. That's my reason for suggesting people judge the game by its own merits. Of course I also play games for the story. I get bored with games that are purely game-play.

 

[Stylish Nero]

What in the holy hell? There's ice cream Pokemon now? Haven't played Pokemon since gold. Back when I had me a badass Vaporeon.

Oh geez man you missed a lot. There are gear pokemon.

Cotton candy pokemon

Perfume Pokemon

Cthulu Pokemon

Possessed Swords

While were at pokemon that represent the Devil.

And God

AND GARBAGE

 

[Chancey289]

I actually knew a guy named Chance. He was the only chance his parents had at having kids. They couldn't have any of their own. I always thought it was a great reason for the name.

.

My mom just told me she named me that because it was different and I always thought that was just a good little joke when people asked about it. I'm surprised it's not as common as I thought it would be though. I only met one other person named Chance and that's because we played music together.

Someone in our family actually confused me for him and I suddenly got this call congratulating me on getting married and stuff and I was all like..........What. The. F#ck. is happening. Like when did I get married? lol

My brother is named Gage. She got the idea from Stephen King's Pet Semetary lol.

 

[Stylish Nero]

True, but at least it was one thing and not a whole game copying Bleach. (DMC4)

DMC4 copying Bleach how so?

I mean there is the whole Nero rescuing Kyrie plot which is identical to Ichigo rescuing Orihime but please there have been plenty of the hero rescues his girlfriend/love interest plot then by all means.

The only reason you can point to Bleach was the voice actors and Kyrie's dress being similar to Orihime's. Take away the voice actors (not even the dress just the voice actors) and NOBODY will barely be drawing comparisons to Bleach.

One reason why they chose Johnny as a voice actor for Nero was because Johnny was a power ranger just like Vergil's voice actor/mo-cap actor and Dante's voice actor/mo-cap actor (although Reuben mainly did mo-cap roles). In fact Johnny was the black ranger......black....Nero. Plus he can pull off a brash youth voice off really well perfect match for Nero. Kyrie most likely came in as a reference to Bleach that and Johnny and Stephanie Sheh are actually like freaking duo or something for usually where ever he is she is there as well and also during the casting of DMC4 Johnny and Stephanie were working on a Nicktoons show together....forgot what it was called though...some cartoon about these kids who fight evil but at the same run a Chinese restaurant.....Three Delivery.

So ALL OF DMC4 Copied Bleach.

• Oh gee I clearly remember a giant statue that was used to pose as God so some religious cult can rule the world in Bleach
• Remember when.....ummm....the Arrancars needed Ichigo's Bankai (lol) to activate a portal to another world and him to activate the giant statue so that was why they kidnapped Orihime (I don't remember why they even captured her)
• Oh yes Gloria/Trish is like that spy who infiltrated the Arrancars base in disguise as them but was a good guy from Bleach
• Oh or when Ichigo got captured and someone needed to save them
• I remember in DMC4 when Nero had to face his inner self or Hollow form to master his Devil Trigger

The only thing DMC4 copied from Bleach was just the "main hero rescuing his friend plot" (which we've seen countless of times) and even then it differs greatly as Orihime and Ichigo were just friends whereas Nero and Kyrie are lovers and have a far closer relationship and history and its still such a miniscule factor in the whole plot of DMC4 which was the Order using Nero and Yamato to achieve world domination.

If anything the whole Nero and Kyrie aspect is more or less a reference to Bleach than them using actual elements from Bleach.

As for They Live, they was more words. Unless if you can find another story that uses hidden subliminal messages in the same fashion as DmC/They Live. They Live is a sci-fi where DmC is a fantasy so their ways of using the same plot devices will feel different but the general concept and execution is there.
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/01/30/reimagining-evil-ninja-theory-on-dmcs-cultural-satire/
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/01/30/reimagining-evil-ninja-theory-on-dmcs-cultural-satire/

Its strongly obvious when writing DmC Tameem was looking to They Live for ideas. Unless you can prove me otherwise with facts.

 

[EllDawn]

My mom just told me she named me that because it was different and I always thought that was just a good little joke when people asked about it. I'm surprised it's not as common as I thought it would be though. I only met one other person named Chance and that's because we played music together.

Someone in our family actually confused me for him and I suddenly got this call congratulating me on getting married and stuff and I was all like..........What. The. F#ck. is happening. Like when did I get married? lol

My brother is named Gage. She got the idea from Stephen King's Pet Semetary lol.

You should meet some people from the smaller towns in Utah. You'll hear a lot of unusual names.

lol. That would be weird. You're making me thankful for my name. It's not that common, and I've only met maybe one or two people with it. None that anyone confused me with.

I actually thought of that movie when you said his name. She must really be a fan of his. Though that is a good name, anyway.

Edit: By the way, I love your DP. That was one of my favorite movies growing up. And that was my favorite character.

 

[DragonMaster2010]

Well since you put an entire useless paragraph, I'll just make this short and sweet.

DMC4 copying Bleach how so?

I mean there is the whole Nero rescuing Kyrie plot which is identical to Ichigo rescuing Orihime but please there have been plenty of the hero rescues his girlfriend/love interest plot then by all means.

True, but it's pretty fishy when the damsel is voiced by the voice actress of Orihime, and the character looks slightly similar to her in hair color and white clothes. Plus Nero being voiced by Ichigo and having to play a punk kid with a giant sword and a katana seems a bit too close for comfort.

I just call it like I see it.

The only reason you can point to Bleach was the voice actors and Kyrie's dress being similar to Orihime's. Take away the voice actors (not even the dress just the voice actors) and NOBODY will barely be drawing comparisons to Bleach.

Nero still being like Ichigo in character, Kyrie looking like Orihime, Credo playing the part of Byakuya, The order wearing all white like Arrancar. Yeah, I can still see comparisons.

One reason why they chose Johnny as a voice actor for Nero was because Johnny was a power ranger just like Vergil's voice actor/mo-cap actor and Dante's voice actor/mo-cap actor (although Reuben mainly did mo-cap roles). In fact Johnny was the black ranger......black....Nero. Plus he can pull off a brash youth voice off really well perfect match for Nero. Kyrie most likely came in as a reference to Bleach that and Johnny and Stephanie Sheh are actually like freaking duo or something for usually where ever he is she is there as well and also during the casting of DMC4 Johnny and Stephanie were working on a Nicktoons show together....forgot what it was called though...some cartoon about these kids who fight evil but at the same run a Chinese restaurant.....Three Delivery.

Oh. I see. But either way, that's still not convincing me that Bleach wasn't a major factor that DMC4 copied from.

So ALL OF DMC4 Copied Bleach.

• Oh gee I clearly remember a giant statue that was used to pose as God so some religious cult can rule the world in Bleach
• Remember when.....ummm....the Arrancars needed Ichigo's Bankai (lol) to activate a portal to another world and him to activate the giant statue so that was why they kidnapped Orihime (I don't remember why they even captured her)
• Oh yes Gloria/Trish is like that spy who infiltrated the Arrancars base in disguise as them but was a good guy from Bleach
• Oh or when Ichigo got captured and someone needed to save them
• I remember in DMC4 when Nero had to face his inner self or Hollow form to master his Devil Trigger

True those small things weren't BLeach, but everything else like saving the damsel, the voice actors, Nero's wanna be punk attitued, Kyrie's pasifist nature, Credo's wanna be Byakuya personality, and so on and so forth is still Bleach to me.

The only thing DMC4 copied from Bleach was just the "main hero rescuing his friend plot" (which we've seen countless of times) and even then it differs greatly as Orihime and Ichigo were just friends whereas Nero and Kyrie are lovers and have a far closer relationship and history and its still such a miniscule factor in the whole plot of DMC4 which was the Order using Nero and Yamato to achieve world domination.

Just as Aizen's been using Orihime and Ichigo for some dominating goal, it's all the same to me regardless.

If anything the whole Nero and Kyrie aspect is more or less a reference to Bleach than them using actual elements from Bleach.

As for They Live, they was more words. Unless if you can find another story that uses hidden subliminal messages in the same fashion as DmC/They Live. They Live is a sci-fi where DmC is a fantasy so their ways of using the same plot devices will feel different but the general concept and execution is there.
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/01/30/reimagining-evil-ninja-theory-on-dmcs-cultural-satire/

Its strongly obvious when writing DmC Tameem was looking to They Live for ideas. Unless you can prove me otherwise with facts.

No I can't, but that's only one thing from They Live that I've really seen Tameen use. Dante doesn't need sunglasses to see these messages, and Dante's fighting demons, not aliens.

Plus there is another movie that uses this trick of hidden truth.

 

[Chancey289]

Limbo is also an entirely different dimension. In They Live he's just wearing a magical pair of sunglasses and seeing what other people can't. Not being dragged in to another dimension where all kind of wacky sh!t can happen.

And when it comes to the way the demons monitor the world and sh!t with a demonic Big Brother is more like 1984. With all those satirical elements that are about as subtle as a rocket launcher point blank to the face.

DmC obviously doesn't take itself very seriously and seems pretty self aware. How Devil May Cry should be in that regard.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Uhm..Bleach wasn't the first to have ghost-like copies of people who embody negative traits. That trope's as old as the "evil twin" cliche. I believe "hollow" has also been used a lot to describe such things...

And DmC's inspiration from They Live pretty much starts and ends with "non-humans subliminally brainwashing folks." Past that...it's all that standard "secret order controls the world" fair that's been around for a loooooong time :/

 

[IncarnatedDemon]

Uhm..Bleach wasn't the first to have ghost-like copies of people who embody negative traits. That trope's as old as the "evil twin" cliche. I believe "hollow" has also been used a lot to describe such things...

I want to assure you most people on this forum and even those who may say that HollowVergil is a rip off from Bleach, are all aware that Bleach is not the first to have the concept of a evil spiritual version of yourself.

With that said let me adress your point.
Can you list couple main characters who had a evil version of themself, that they met in a spiritual world (imaginery hell, individuals soul, etc), whos name starts with "Hollow x" and is white all over.

In other words, criterias:
* evil version name starting with Hollow
* evil version being all white
* main character meets this side of himself in a spiritual world


You can list works that meet 1 or more criterias.
But what i am really looking for is a work that meets all three.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

I'm not gonna list you every single instance, but by golly TV Tropes sure can bring a lot of them together all in one place. Like hollows being a negative representation, and then there's the entire evil twin shtick, while also having an embattled relationship with it.

Keep in mind Hollow Ichigo is actually pretty much expressly a color inversion of the normal ichigo, and fits a color scheme present through the entire series where black is good and white is baaaaad. Then again, Hollow Ichigo is pure white, and Hollow Vergil ain't. In pop culture, a lot of spirits show up as lightly colored apparitions, and especially in this technological age, we tend to go for bright/pale blues and greens, like the spirits in A Christmas Carol or, hey, Hollow Vergil. Or...also Hollow Kat and Hollow Dante.

Meeting these negatively-inclined evil twins in a metaphysical head-space is also pretty standard, what with them being an embodiment of a character's negative mental and emotional traits.

Even the term "hollow" when referring to a lack of emotion isn't new. Bleach found a nice play on the word with it meaning the "minus" spirit to the "plus" spirit, but all in all, it's a pretty damn common term, because it just means "empty."

There's quite a lot of room for argument over how alike they may be, and where inspirations could even be drawn from, especially since Hollow Ichigo itself is very derivative of some really good tropes for addressing inner turmoil.

----------------

And now I'm actually trying to remember where it was ever mentioned that he was actually called "Hollow Vergil" in Vergil's Downfall. Anyone remember...? Man...that's gonna bug me now...

 

[IncarnatedDemon]

I asked you to list sources where the three criterias i listed have been met. I did not ask you to tell me how evil representations happen on its own in different work.
Nor did i ask for how spirits are represented with white transparent colour.

I asked all three of them in one.
A being called Hollow x = name.
whos covered in white
and is a evil representation of the main character

List me some works that have done that. Dont list me works that have one of the criterias...i am aware of such creations myself.
If listing work that contains one of the criteria e.g X from X serie was heartless, Y from Y serie was represented with white, and Z from Z serie was called Hollow Z, then you should realize your argument is poor.

The claim that Hollow Vergil is a rip off is not based on one criteria such as a evil representation, yet you seem to think that, which honestly is a insult to my and others intelligence by believing that's the case and treat it as such. But i'll ignore that, as you may not be aware of that.

The claim is based on the fact:
- Hollow Vergil /Hollow Ichigo - 1
- White covered - 1
- Evil representation - 1
3 things that all appear in Bleach
And i asked you of other work that have all these three as well.

But that is not the only thing that happens in Bleach that happens in DmC.

When Ichigo goes into his soul world, most of time he comes back with more power. Same thing with DmC, NTVergil came back with power.

The enviroment where you fight HollowVergil looks similar to Hueco Mundo:

How about the fact that HollowVergil steals NTVergils powers by taking the amulet from him. The same thing happened in Bleach when HollowIchigo became so strong that he became the dominant spirit, which lead to Ichigo losing Zangetsu to him.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

I gave you all the info you'd need to do your own damn research, dude. The tropes have been around forever, and have been used in so many different amalgamations I can't be assed to give you specific examples of them all. I'm tired, and barely have it in me to bother arguing with you at all, because you just never f#cking listen.

I would also like to point out that a "barren wasteland" is another incredibly standard representation of a character's troubled head-space.

Like I said, there's a lot of elements in play here, and those elements are really common throughout all of literature and media. In this day and age, it's (regrettably) all too possible to unintentionally come up with similar concepts, especially when dabbling in those tried and true elements that are at play here :/

And right now I'm actually calling in to question where the term "Hollow Vergil" came from, because I honestly cannot remember where I heard it in Vergil's Downfall, and it's bugging the hell outta me Never mind, found it in the Stats menu >.< Although now I'm wondering why my game says I haven't killed Hollow Vergil at all...when I've beaten him like six times...

Also - Vergil didn't have his powers or Amulet stolen from him. The entire thing was a metaphysical struggle, and Vergil didn't have his Amulet, that which represented power to him, because he subconsciously felt weak - it's the equivalent of having such sh!tty self-esteem that even in your head you're no good. Because of that, the more selfish side of Vergil appeared (you could possibly call him Vergil's Id), goading him into letting go of his relationships (that which made him weak) in order to reclaim his power (that which he covets). There's no "Hollow Vergil being so strong that he becomes the dominant spirit." The dude equates to little more than a spiritual douchebag influencing Vergil to make some really bad decisions.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Holy crap on a cracker, that's some bad server hiccups O_______o

EDIT: Fixed 'em. Sorreeeh~

 

[MultiBro]

Gotta love the arguments here. "DMC3/4 is just ripoff from anime and manga!" "DmC? No no, it doesn't take anything from anywhere at all!"

Gotta love you biased people~

 

[IncarnatedDemon]

Thanks for the discussion TWO.

 

[EllDawn]

Gotta love the arguments here. "DMC3/4 is just ripoff from anime and manga!" "DmC? No no, it doesn't take anything from anywhere at all!"

Gotta love you biased people~

We actually had this argument in another thread. A lot of us said it didn't just take stuff from They Live, but several sources. So we're not exactly saying DmC didn't take anything from other stories, but there was more than the one.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Gotta love the arguments here. "DMC3/4 is just ripoff from anime and manga!" "DmC? No no, it doesn't take anything from anywhere at all!"

Gotta love you biased people~

For the record, I don't really think DMC ripped off anything either. Stuff like InuYasha and Bleach also have so many common elements that it's not surprising to see them elsewhere. The only clear lift DMC has is to the Divine Comedy, just as DmC has inspiration from They Live (which didn't lift as much unique elements from the movie as people like to think it did).

 

[Stylish Nero]

Well since you put an entire useless paragraph, I'll just make this short and sweet.



No I can't, but that's only one thing from They Live that I've really seen Tameen use. Dante doesn't need sunglasses to see these messages, and Dante's fighting demons, not aliens.

Plus there is another movie that uses this trick of hidden truth.

Okay for starters Orihime has orange hair while Kyrie is a brunnette.

Not only that but Kyrie is a pacifist because she can't fight and has no special abilities whereas Orihime can fight and has abilities (an Over Powered one at that. Can reject reality and even reverse events like bringing back people from the dead and can heal ANY WOUND even if their dead). Orihime was abducted due to his power serving an ultimate use where as Kyrie was abducted because they needed to lure in Nero.

As for Credo and Byakuya. NOTHING ALIKE! Byakuya is Rukia's older brother (no wait Byakuya is Rukia's step brother) not Orihime's and Byakuya was content with his little step-sister getting executed (although he didn't like it he didn't do much to try and save her until the end after she was safe from execution) whereas Credo got extremely ****ed when Sanctus used his sister to achieve their goals. Byakuya was very cold to his little sister and was very text book and straight forward to the rules whereas Credo though loyal has shown to lash out and question when something is wrong even betraying his leader. So what because both are proud lieutenants of the faction they serve under they seem alike.

Furthermore, Aizen wanted to destroy the Soul Society (for some odd reason) whereas Sanctus wanted to unite the world under one religion and create peace and needed Nero (originally his target was Dante) to activate his plan whereas with Aizen its really unknown why he needed Orihime let alone Ichigo....it was for some jewel thingy in his chest but he also used Rukia and god I don't know man Bleach's story can be so confusing and unclear at times.

As for Nero ad Ichigo's swords. Nero's main sword is a German Grosse Messer which is more of an over sized war knife so it can't fit the BFS trope whereas Ichigo's Shikai is a kyhber knife and the Bankai form is a daito whereas Yamato (which has been around since the start of the series) is an O-Katana. Plus its not like his Red Queen transforms into Yamato for he can dual wield them.

Lastly the Order of the Sword and the Arrancars, so DMC4 copied Bleach because the main villains wear white. What is the logic behind that so Bleach invented the color white and used it to represent the bad guys. I can list countless villains and evil organizations in fiction that done white colors (the Templars in Assassin's Creed being one). White in certain religions (Christianity namely) signifies purity and cleansing and the Order were based off as Christianity (well mostly Catholicism for why does Sanctus look like a pope and the main colors Catholic officials wear are usually white or black) and Nero was based off Emperor Nero and serves as reference to when Nero blamed a tragedy in Rome and had millions of Christians were killed (which is directed in DMC4 when the Order caused a tragedy on Fortuna City by unleashing the demons via the Hell Gate and Nero was the one responsible for their downfall).

One should do research or look deeper into things before jumping to baseless claims and assumptions.