Sunaka Marién
Well-known Member
Never even thought about Vergil that way, but now that you bring it up... :blink:
What should/shouldn't rub off from DmC into DMC5?
- Thread starter EvilX-81
- Start date
Demi-fiend
Metempsychosis
I know right? Sometimes, you have to step back and look at everything within the proper context. How would Old Vergil react? That's how.
Loopy
Devil hunter in training
So really those two Vergils aren't so different.
DMC3 Vergil was pretty sick, but hid it well by being calm and collected. But you do get hints that he's twisted, like you say with Arkham killing his wife and being pleased about it. Then he just snaps and stabs Arkham without warning and tells the guy to shut up.
DmC Vergil seems calm, seems like he wants to do the right thing for the world, but then he just loss the plot. Everything he showed on the outside was a mask for his own twisted mind. Just look at Downfall to see how twisted he really was. He was just so messed up in his head over his perceived inferiority to Dante, how he used Kat and how he left his mother to be tormented by demons, but not before throwing everything she gave him back at her face.
Demi-fiend
Metempsychosis
Yeah, but he didn't actually kill his mom. He just left her there, and not necessarily to be taunted by demons, seeing as how he killed almost all of them.
Besides, she's a warrior, she was able was able to handle herself until the monsters overwhelmed her in the first place.
In the DMC3 manual, it mentions how Vergil always believed that Eva loved Dante more. This is just a reference to the older version of his character.
Old Vergil probably would have ended up killing (she can't be killed, so incapacitating her with his o-katana) Eva, had he met her in the demonic realm after DMC3.
These are two similar, yet very distinct levels of sickness. Old Vergil doesn't care, as long as his "image" is kept intact, and New Vergil is the victim of his own insanity. But he's choosing what he believes is the right choice, according to his own twisted logic.
Old Vergil simply made up that "power is protection" excuse as a way to keep his "honorable face" in check in front of his brother.
OppressedWriter
SamD
I think the reason Vergil shoots the stomach first is not because he's just some cruel sadistic monster(there's a little bit of that), but also because the baby is more powerful than Lilith, if he had shot Lilith first, the baby would have taken over like he does in the boss fight preceding this sequence. It's not just some harmless baby, its a giant demon spawn of Mundus.
Just for further illustration, we're talking about this monstrosity, the thing you see in the pictures below, notice how Lilith doesn't seem to be the one in control. Therefore, Vergil was being more than just cruel, he was being efficient and smart to make sure that Mundus Spawn and Lilith both died. If you want to talk about the real dishonorable thing he does in that scene, well I'd say its how he doesn't even wait for Kat to make it halfway before shooting Lilith. It shows that in his thirst for revenge/power he's willing to sacrifice anyone and anything.
Just for further illustration, we're talking about this monstrosity, the thing you see in the pictures below, notice how Lilith doesn't seem to be the one in control. Therefore, Vergil was being more than just cruel, he was being efficient and smart to make sure that Mundus Spawn and Lilith both died. If you want to talk about the real dishonorable thing he does in that scene, well I'd say its how he doesn't even wait for Kat to make it halfway before shooting Lilith. It shows that in his thirst for revenge/power he's willing to sacrifice anyone and anything.
Loopy
Devil hunter in training
Sunaka Marién
Well-known Member
I was wondering about that too, but remember our vessel talk from yesterday? I explained it to myself that way, since the baby most likely doesn't have a human vessel yet, it cannot take form outside of Limbo.
Demi-fiend
Metempsychosis
It was already weakened from its battle with Dante.
Kam
Wall of text crits you for 600
I'd like to think that old vergil would refuse the notion that he needed to remain a secret from mundus. He'd stab lilith face to face, and then engage mundus in a head on confrontation, even if that was a poor call (remember, that's how was brainwashed and became nelo angelo in the first place)
speaking of vergil and nelo angelo, here's a fun tidbit. The first time you encounter angel armors in 4, music very similar to the nelo angel boss music is playing, and that's no coincidence. If you check out the in game encyclopedia (or the wiki) the angel armors are all made using fragments of vergil.
Just another thing in a long list of details I wished they'd made more visible to casual players, instead of hiding it in a place most people won't look. The original games had awful storytelling mechanics
Awake
Under the Promised Flag
They didn't have horrible story telling mechanics...the reason they left stuff out was to pick the curiosity and ask question hoping to get a better understanding because no other person is going to do your homework....its all up to you to find the answers...like with Metal Gear...Each game left a lot of unanswered questions that were answered outside of the game criteria...same can be said with DMC...but it is easier to understand and easy to get 2 and 2 together...there is no fun if all the answers are there...it is fun to speculate until proven wrong... like the whole Vergil and Nero situation and how Nero's devil trigger is not Vergil's soul as many thought out to be in the beginning.I'd like to think that old vergil would refuse the notion that he needed to remain a secret from mundus. He'd stab lilith face to face, and then engage mundus in a head on confrontation, even if that was a poor call (remember, that's how was brainwashed and became nelo angelo in the first place)
speaking of vergil and nelo angelo, here's a fun tidbit. The first time you encounter angel armors in 4, music very similar to the nelo angel boss music is playing, and that's no coincidence. If you check out the in game encyclopedia (or the wiki) the angel armors are all made using fragments of vergil.
Just another thing in a long list of details I wished they'd made more visible to casual players, instead of hiding it in a place most people won't look. The original games had awful storytelling mechanics
Kam
Wall of text crits you for 600
while it is fun to dig, I still feel that anything you dig up should be cool bonuses, and not core parts of the story. Nero's heritage and the fact that angelo armors are made from fragments of vergil are kind of important, and dante goes through two distinct character changes in DMC3 but you'd never know unless you dug for it. This isn't hiding cool details like MGS games do, it's like presenting only the fights scenes from a movie and counting on people to want to find the rest of the story
Stylish Nero
We Dem Boys!!
speaking of vergil and nelo angelo, here's a fun tidbit. The first time you encounter angel armors in 4, music very similar to the nelo angel boss music is playing, and that's no coincidence. If you check out the in game encyclopedia (or the wiki) the angel armors are all made using fragments of vergil.
Just another thing in a long list of details I wished they'd made more visible to casual players, instead of hiding it in a place most people won't look. The original games had awful storytelling mechanics
Hmm...that fact was in the in-game encyclopedia/database.
Sorry to break it to you but that is how most Japanese writers....well game designers write their stories...nothing is ever straight forward, usually implied, or require you to either pay 100% or research some more.
Eg. Bayonetta, there are tons of crucial info on the game and the story that are only revealed in Antonia Notebooks (Notes) that you must find and read and its even implied that the Angels you've fought aren't even angels but Lumen Sages who through sacrificial ritual or something turned themselves into angels or made contracts with angels and used them.
Same goes for No More Heroes, like some of the bosses/other assassins, their backstory is never (or usually isn't) given but you have to find/read the visual novels or go on the wikia to find more info on them like stuff like Sketler Hetler was a college student and his brother Helter Sketler was paying for his college tuition via his assassin work and when Travis killed his brother, he had to drop out of his school and become an assassin like his big bro to make a living and get his brother's revenge. Even Alice's and Margeret's backstory are in those visual novels.
There is much more...but I'll get into that later when I don't have so much homework to work on but my point is that is not awful storytelling mechanics (wtf storytelling mechanics) its just another way of writing...and it works for video games. Sometimes to fully understand the story it somewhat enthralls you to play the game again.
Well, I give that a pass most of the time... but not for DMC4 with how annoyingly question-dodging that game could be, and not on such a crucial tidbit. Information that Dante's brother was chopped up to make angel armors isn't something that should be hidden in an obscure encyclopedia reference.
Stylish Nero
We Dem Boys!!
It depends on you or how you want it to be.
From a neutral standpoint, it doesn't really matter since the Angelos are most likely all gone it seems. Plus Vergil wasn't chopped up to make the Angelos, they were constructed with the fragments of Nelo Angelo's armor...meaning when Nelo Angelo blow up in DMC1 the Order found its parts....Vergil's soul/existence is still unknown. They were made from the armor not Vergil or his soul
Plus they needed something to put in the Angelo's enemy database, there are plenty of info on not just enemies and bosses but even key characters that aren't revealed in the story/cutscenes but in the database/encyclopedia.
Plus knowing that wasn't really crucial to the plot of DMC4 now is it? Its practically similar to how Lady mentions they were collecting Devil Arms and not why they were collecting them but its revealed not through an explanation or any form of dialogue/text what they were using them for.
Granted they could've had Agnus explain or bring this up when he encountered Nero but it probably would've been a quick sentence and it wouldn't be any different than hearing it from an encyclopedia entry in the game.
Plus to me its not question dodging, if they're giving you hints now is it? They're just baiting to keep people interested (is it working......probably not).
At this point, DMC was being written for the fans. If any newcomer is confused (I know I was)...boo-hoo play the past games.
Oh, Nelo Angelo armor pieces. Okay, that's easier to understand.
Well, let's be real here; that game practically dodged any attempt to give any idea of Vergil's condition or situation (unless one takes Vergil's broken sword there as being a symbol for his death at the hands of Dante back in DMC1) and any explanation for why Nero has his devil bringer or has Sparda blood and his relation to the brothers. That's what I meant by question-dodging.
Demi-fiend
Metempsychosis
TerrorA
Don't mess with a Mage, bitch.
Your sig.
My favorite Teen Titan after Robin! Raven is so dark and moody and broken, yet so powerful. I want to hug her!
VineBigBoss
GGXRD <3
I don't think this comparison is valid.
I don't remember DMC3 manual mentioning this, the manga writters described Vergil this way (and the manga is not canon, and it has much inconsistences compared to what was presented in the game) but absolutely nothing in the game points this out. Even the protection thing hints that Vergil loved Eva and wants power in the first place to protect something or someone that was never mentioned or that even he doesn't know for sure (my bet is that he feels guilty for not being able to protect her back in that time). My source: DMC Lair.
Vergil would never kill his mother or point his sword directly to one being incapable of reacting properly to his attacks, unless this being tries to kill him (while posing a real threat) or be in his way, he even spared Lady's life twice (on the ritual place and in the library) who posed one annoyance to his plans. Just looking at his lines and his way of acting you can assume this. He most ignores Lady, even knowing that she could pose some annoyance to his plans, he doesn't tried to kill her while fighting Dante (which would be an easy task for him, just seeing how easily he slayed Beowulf, the fight with Lady shows that Dante beated her with ease).
Vergil clearly takes this honor thing as a warrior seriously. He nearly killed Arkham because he disobeys his orders to dispatch of the girl, and he knows that Arkham was not human anymore and were able to fight him. Obviously he looks much more powerful than Arkham, but Arkham was able to "defeat" he and Dante when they were exhauted from their very own battle.
But i agree that Vergil's mind is somewhat twisted in both cases. He cannot realize that even his urge for power is a "scream" of his human feelings and ego.
DmC tried to approach things much more to our contemporary reality, were peoples lacks on morals and are dirty as the characters in the game are (and i'm not saying that it's bad, but i personaly don't like it). They don't used the common archtype of a hero or even an anti-hero, they tried to bring us more contemporary humans to their story and that's why new Vergil is very different from old Vergil. Sure that they tried to make some references for the old fans to be pleased, but the new Vergil is setted in another world and is a completely different character, he has his own personality, morals, objectives and story. DMC is much more "puritan" the way they put their characters, Sparda's efforts were to be praised, equal to Dante's and the game gives you no room to question their acts as immoral or such things, Dante was killing demons that were trying to destroy the human world, he was fighting to protect the weak just like his father. While Vergil's motivations remains a mystery, but he had a lot of honor (that even Dante don't had, as a warrior).
Demi-fiend
Metempsychosis
Of course you wouldn't. As long as it doesn't fit into your own personal view, you wouldn't even consider that possibility in the first place.
VineBigBoss
GGXRD <3
The things you've said doesn't fit with the canon neither with Vergil's personality, look at the examples i've used.