What should/shouldn't rub off from DmC into DMC5?

[IncarnatedDemon]

I didn't think they had human forms. They don't. They're borrowing humans bodies, putting their 'souls' in them and using them as vessels to live in the human world.

Edit: Having said that, Mundus for sure put his soul in Kyle Ryder's body, but Lilith, I'm not sure. Her human form is being held together by corsets, so is her demon body in a human skin?

Ill say this second time: where is it said they are using a vessel?

 

[Sunaka Marién]

No, i don´t think he was a demon at all.

And that "planting" u mentioned.

There was MANY demons who hadnt donethat = many.

So i am very sure that the bouncer was a human.
Is there any fact backing up Mundus or Lilith has a human form because they are using a human vessel or is that just a theory u have?

I'm only speaking of it being a possibility that he was a demon. But I also think that he was most likely just a collaborator, who can only partially be seen as human.
About that planting. Vergil literally said that Munduses body was a human vessel.

CEO, Kyle Ryder. A human vessel: the physical manifestation of Mundus, the demon king.

(at about 27 minutes)

Edit: Having said that, Mundus for sure put his soul in Kyle Ryder's body, but Lilith, I'm not sure. Her human form is being held together by corsets, so is her demon body in a human skin?

I've been wondering about that too :/ Maybe only really strong demons can successfully implant their soul into a vessel?

 

[Loopy]

Ill say this second time: where is it said they are using a vessel?

Vergil says it at the start when he's explaining Mundus to Dante, and then at the end when they are trying to defeat Mundus in his huge form.
That form is his human vessel (Kyle Ryder's body) inside an armour of cars, buildings and whatever he could get to protect himself. Vergil says Mundus' soul is trapped in his human vessel since he closed the hellgate.

 

[IncarnatedDemon]

Ok, so demons can have a vessel. A good and valid point. I applaud you for this (enjoy the like).

Let´s then take a closer look at this vessel:

Can all demons live through a vessel?

Can a stygian? No (we saw that in cutscenes)
Can one of those undead knights similar to Hell Knight? No (we saw this too)
Can a huge sea turtle demon (there is one in ending cutscene) - no they cant.

So what demons can turn live through a vessel? Is Lilith living through a vessel?
Mundus confirmed

I dont think that bouncer was a demon at all.

It would be really weird.
For 1) If he was a strong demon, he wouldnt be able t oget knocked down so easily by Dante (Dream runner yo)

So what assuming the bouncer was a demon, would he been a weak one or strong one? Weak one obviously?
And as we know most weak demons cant or doesnt have the ability to live through avessel. Hell even a undead knight or a Rage cant and those are strong demons.


Which goes back to my point: The bouncer if he was a weak demon how did he have the ability to live through a vessel when alot of the demons (Rage, Stygian, Death Knight, etc) doesnt have that ability.

If he was a strong demon (dream runner class), how come Dante knocked him out so easily?





P.S Here is something that caught my attention as i was viewing cutscenes:
1) That´s a huge demon
2) Remember what Phineas said "You see evil only in me because i am a demon
3) I think this looks like a "nice demon".

 

[Loopy]

Ok, so demons can have a vessel. A good and valid point. I applaud you for this (enjoy the like).

Let´s then take a closer look at this vessel:

Can all demons live through a vessel?
Nope. It seems only Mundus can put his soul in a human body. Well, he's the only one we see doing this. As for Sparda, I'm not sure. He could have been using a vessel, or some kind of illusion magic to make him look human.
Can a stygian? No (we saw that in cutscenes)
Can one of those undead knights similar to Hell Knight? No (we saw this too)
Can a huge sea turtle demon (there is one in ending cutscene) - no they cant.
Seems like only powerful demons can use vessels. Those demons you mention all seem to be weak ones.
So what demons can turn live through a vessel? Is Lilith living through a vessel?
Mundus confirmed
Mundus for sure. Lilith looked to be a demon body using a human skin as a coat to hide in. She's held together by a corset, and can be seen bleeding at the back where the skin in ripped.
I dont think that bouncer was a demon at all.

It would be really weird.
For 1) If he was a strong demon, he wouldnt be able t oget knocked down so easily by Dante (Dream runner yo)

So what assuming the bouncer was a demon, would he been a weak one or strong one? Weak one obviously?
And as we know most weak demons cant or doesnt have the ability to live through avessel. Hell even a undead knight or a Rage cant and those are strong demons.
I don't think the bouncer was demon. At the most, he was a collaborator.

Which goes back to my point: The bouncer if he was a weak demon how did he have the ability to live through a vessel when alot of the demons (Rage, Stygian, Death Knight, etc) doesnt have that ability.
Seems like only Mundus can truly use a human vessel.
If he was a strong demon (dream runner class), how come Dante knocked him out so easily?





P.S Here is something that caught my attention as i was viewing cutscenes:
1) That´s a huge demon
2) Remember what Phineas said "You see evil only in me because i am a demon
3) I think this looks like a "nice demon".Those aren't nice demons. They spend most of the time chasing Dante and trying to kill him. That's not nice.>_<

 

[IncarnatedDemon]

WTF? Take a closer look, is that black dude standing on the demon?

More support for my theory of "Nice Turtle Demon"

 

[Sunaka Marién]

snip

Gaah, just when I wanted to go to sleep >_<
Ok then.
No, we didn't see that weaker demons can't have a vessel. I believe you are refering to the ones who popped up when Limbo and he real world collapsed? Well, as mentioned, they 'popped up', as in where they appeared there was nothing but thin air before. Which means that those simply did not have a human vessel, because if they had, probably nothing would have happened to them, they would have just continued to look like a regular human being, or at best, we would have seen a human turn into a demon. That didn't happen though.
As for Rages, you could even argue that the Rage head Dante held in that cutscene when he was narrating about his past, was the head of the orphanage's "nurse" he is said to have killed (you know, the one Bob mentioned). Sure, this is just an assumtion, but it is possible.
Lilith: She most likely lives through a vessel, however this was not explicitly stated. But why else should she look human?
The bouncer: As I already explained, we don't know if for sure if weak demons can have vessels or not. And as I already said in my post above, I also don't believe that he was a demon, but a collaborator.
The Rage pic you posted: lol, it actually does look pretty cute there

Nope. It seems only Mundus can put his soul in a human body. Well, he's the only one we see doing this. As for Sparda, I'm not sure. He could have been using a vessel, or some kind of illusion magic to make him look human.

Ehem, aren't we forgetting Bob here? Also, Sparda was a very powerful demon himself, one of the kings, like Mundus, so I'm pretty sure he could also have a vessel.
And what about Kat's caretaker? He was a demon. And I'm pretty sure he didn't just walk around looking like one :/

 

[IncarnatedDemon]

^ Like i said many of the demons you fight did not have a vessel.
So when majority of the demons you know of dont have a vessel then how can bouncer be a demon if he was so weak.

He could be a special type of weak demon but i dont think the narrative has any focus on such directions .

 

[Loopy]

Ehem, aren't we forgetting Bob here? Also, Sparda was a very powerful demon himself, one of the kings, like Mundus, so I'm pretty sure he could also have a vessel.Opps, my bad:blush: I forgot about Bob.
And what about Kat's caretaker? He was a demon. And I'm pretty sure he didn't just walk around looking like one :/

Just thought of the Vergil comic too. There were demons in that, but only Kat could see them as demons, while everyone else saw them as human.

 

[Sunaka Marién]

^ Like i said many of the demons you fight did not have a vessel.
So when majority of the demons you know of dont have a vessel then how can bouncer be a demon if he was so weak.

He could be a special type of weak demon but i dont think the narrative has any focus on such directions .

The demons you actually fight would of course most likely not have a vessel. Why should they? They're there for fighting and nothing else. But only because we are not directly shown that they can have a vessel, does not rule out the possibility that they could theoretically have one.
Also, think about what Dante said "When the people you are supposed to trust most turn out to be demon scum ...". To me, that indicates that there are many many more demons using a human vessel, and I don't see why only overly powerful demons should be limited to that. Granted, they might not put a Stygan into the position of fostering an orphanage, but I wouldn't wonder if elite Stygans or Rages would be used for that job, or other demons we just don't know of.
I still think it's possible for the bouncer to have been a demon, not very likely, but possible.

Just thought of the Vergil comic too. There were demons in that, but only Kat could see them as demons, while everyone else saw them as human.

Yeah, exactly. I haven't read that comic yet, but I'd guess that those were demons in human vessels.

 

[IncarnatedDemon]

^ I am 99,9% sure the bouncer wasnt a demon based on vibes. You just know whos suspicious and whos not, and that bouncer looked like victim of Dante´s punch in a "**** You" scene.

But you make a very valid point. However, we don´t know that "trusted person" was a weakling stygian or a strong demon. Because Dante could see stygians.

And since DmC partially takes things from They Live, i belive they have same setup. In they Live u needed a special kind of sun glasses to see the aliens, without them ud see nothing unusual.
Because there was a antenna sending out signals that affected human brain in that that when they looked at an alien they saw a human.

But again without knowing what kind of demon that trusted person was, strong or weak, u cant really say that weakling demons like stygians or death knights or rages can have vessels or live through a vessel.
There are tons of corrupted humans, so why did any demon like a stygian not cloak themself?

And only when the hellgate was destroyed did the demons appear before the eyes of normal humans.

 

[Sunaka Marién]

snip

"Based on vibes", huh? Not exactly a very valid argument :/ But, as I already said, I agree that he was most likely not a demon, but a collaborator.
And no, we don't know if the trusteted persons were weak or strong demons. I never said we knew. All I said was, that there is a thoretical possibility that weaker demons can have human vessels, as there is nothing that would exactly state the opposite in the game or any sublementary material I have read.
Only because DmC has similar themes to They Live does not necessarily mean the have the same setup, though.
The reason normal people cannot see any demons is because the demons that are in the human world are using vessels, because they cannot exist in the human world without one. The other demons are in Limbo, where people can't see them. When the hell gate was shut, Limbo and the human world collapsed into each other, which basically means that they became one. Now that Limbo no longer exists on its own and some of Limbo's characteristics were fused with the human world, demons can now (or have to) exist in that combined world, meaning that they have no means of hiding themselves unless they can find a vessel. Why aren't they just taking a vessel, then? Well, we don't know how exactly a demon can get a vessel, so they might just not have had the time for it, or simply didn't feel like it

 

[Loopy]

"Based on vibes", huh? Not exactly a very valid argument :/ But, as I already said, I agree that he was most likely not a demon, but a collaborator.
Might not even be a collaborator in the sense of black tears. Vergil does say that club has drugs and drink that make humans follow the demons. So th bouncer could have been drinking stuff at the club that made him side with the demons. Like a brainwashing with drink.
I figured collaborators implied knowingly joining the demons in exchange for money and power, and the other stuff at Lilith's club like women, drugs and drink. Does that sound possible? :/
And no, we don't know if the truseted persons were weak or strong demons. I never said we knew. All I said was, that there is a thoretical possibility that weaker demons can have human vessels, as there is nothing that would exactly state the opposite in the game or any sublementary material I have read.
I just saw the opening scene again. In that, we see the club through Dante's eyes. When Dante throws a bottle at the bartender, there is a demon behind the bartender. When Dante throws the bottle, th demon pushed the bartender out of the way. Almost like how you can control a puppet.
So is it possible a demon was controlling the bouncer like a puppet just like the bartender?

See there at the bar, the demon has its hand on the man.

Then the demon pushes the man out of the way when Dante throws a bottle.

 

[Sunaka Marién]

To be honest, I don't know.
From what Vergil said and how Virility presumingly works, I'd say that it is possible that if you're druged enough, demons can basically do with you whatever they want. So yes, it is possible that the bouncer was controlled like that.
I'm not entirely sure how you'd become a demon colaborator, but judging from the word 'colaborator' I always assumed that it was basically making a contract with demons. I wouldn't wonder if that doesn't always happen on a completely voluntarily base, though, especially if the theory of demons being in such great control over humans stuffed with demon drugs.
Personally, I think the bouncer was indeed a demon colaborator, but sure, your idea could be true aswell :3
Edit: I rewatched that bar scene, and the Stygan actually doesn't push the bartender out of the way, he actually just ducks out of the way.
I really wonder what that demon even does there, it looks like it's just standing there all like "yo dis mah best homie, lemme introduce 'im to ya." xD

 

[Loopy]

To be honest, I don't know.
From what Vergil said and how Virility presumingly works, I'd say that it is possible that if you're druged enough, demons can basically do with you whatever they want. So yes, it is possible that the bouncer was controlled like that.Yep, Vergil does say Virility is like a lobotomy in a can. So that would mean that drinking Virility turns humans into zombies who don't think...they just do what thy are told.
I'm not entirely sure how you'd become a demon colaborator, but judging from the word 'colaborator' I always assumed that it was basically making a contract with demons.I got the impression that 'collaborator' did mean that humans agreed to work for them. Collaborate does mean it's willingly working together with someone else.
I wouldn't wonder if that doesn't always happen on a completely voluntarily base, though, especially if the theory of demons being in such great control over humans stuffed with demon drugs.True, with all that Virility and drugs, maybe they gave them those until humans agreed to be collaborators becauase they were so drugged up and drunk that they did not know what they were agreeing to.
Personally, I think the bouncer was indeed a demon colaborator, but sure, your idea could be true aswell :3
Edit: I rewatched that bar scene, and the Stygan actually doesn't push the bartender out of the way, he actually just ducks out of the way.Darn it! I though maybe I'd found an explaination for the bouncer>_< You're right, he doesn't push him. I need new eyes
I really wonder what that demon even does there, it looks like it's just standing there all like "yo dis mah best homie, lemme introduce 'im to ya." xD

:lol: Maybe the demon was stealing free drink from the bar.

 

[Demi-fiend]

TL;DR
for the sake of being "cool badasses" the best parts of dante and vergil are taken away, and they're recast as uncaring, backstabbing assholes.
Gameplay is fun and has loads of redeeming qualities, but I absolutely despise the new characters.

All right, look. I like you post, I support your opinion, I just thought the "a-hole" thing was going a bit too far. You can get your point across by calling them something else. Such as: "despicable ghouls".

Edit: Actually, I'm against name-calling in general, but I know that this is just your opinion and not actual fact.

Vergil just stabs Arkham right through with no warning. Arkahm had taken Vergil as far as he wanted to go and had no use for him (as Vergil says.)
What sets Vergil off is that Arkham does not kill Lady. He thinks Arkham's a weakling for not being able to go through with the killing and blames that Arkham is still attached to his daughter.
So I'd get from that that Vergil wanted Arkham to cast away his humanity completely for demonic power, but Vergil becomes angry with him when he won't kill Lady, which made Vergil think he was not capable or worthy of joining him.

True that Vergil does want to fight Arkham in a different way later by teaming up with Dante, but what Vergil did previously was pretty low. Arkham had helped him, and then Vergil literally stabs him. Not that I'd blame Vergil. That Arkham was a creepy, demon worshiping sychophant.

As for DmC. I figured that Vergil shot at the baby first because that baby does have a habbit of ripping its way out of her body. If he'd shot Lilith first, that baby would still have been alive, got out of her and caused a lot of trouble for the exchange.
So it's kill the baby first to make sure it doesn't get out of her, then do a mercy killing on Lilith after he's made sure the baby is dead.

Also, as for letting it sink in that the baby is dead. She didn't care for it like a mother. It was more like 'oh crap, my plan to get Mundus to make me his queen has failed'.

I was going to snip your post, but everything I wanted to convey was written here.

To sum up: Vergil used Arkham, thought he was "weak" for not slaying his own daughter, and never bothered to do the deed himself only because he thought of Lady as "beneath him".

Vergil likes to give off the veneer of honor, but in the end, that's all it is. A facade.

Thank you! I always said that Vergil didn't act very honorable, even though people say he does.

I think they're mistaking "Pride" with "Honor"

People usually do. And I'll go as far as to say that a lot of the Old DMC fans don't even know the difference, no matter how much they insist that they do.

It's my opinion yes, but it's one that's based on what I've seen so far from the Old DMC fanbase in general.

I could be right, I could be wrong, but I do know that a lot of people would agree with me on this one.

This is now my new signature.

"Pride is not Honor."

This probably describes this entire Devil May Cry situation as a whole.

You really hit the nail on the head with that one, T.A.

 

[Kam]

Thanks for answering! I sure learned a lot of new things about gameplay today :3 From now on, I shall call you Kam-sensei
Personally, I prefer it not to have styles, it's just a lot easier to do stuff :blush:
I kinda feel like the moveset in DmC was just generally rather... limited :ermm: And I'm not even one that uses all the moves, so the I understand that the lack of redundancies is a problem.
As for the story, well I never enven thought about it like that! You are right, it really is pretty off if you think about it.
Gotta agree, Dante no longer being half human always bugged me, it just seems wrong. As for his attitude towards humanity, I think they were trying to show that he slowly developed his faith in them, but, well, NT really could have done a better job there. However, the guy he punched, might have not been human, or no longer human; we don't really know.
And Vergil... yeah, everything you said. I love your explaination of why he's honorable because of only attacking you face to face. I never heard that before, and sure didn't notice. I'll have to remember that!

people have a love hate relationship with the style system, myself included. Trying to use all 5 right off the bat is downright overwhelming, but if you master them all (no small feat, I promise) you basically become a god. Your character is an invincible, unstoppable force; not because the programmers decided you should be that powerful, but because you mastered something so mind bendingly complex that the game designers never balanced the game to handle someone actually using it to the degree you could.

That said, I never became that good, so while it was awesome seeing godlike high level play, my play was always mediocre. Sort of stylish, effective, but not great. DmC was a welcome change, where I finally felt like it was no longer necessary to micromanage 5 styles, 3 guns, and 3 swords on the fly in order to be half way effective. At the same time, it was a bit of a bummer to realize that the unattainable goal I'd daydreamed of someday achieving had been written out of the game mechanics.

 

[Kam]

snip

hm, you do raise some good points. I may have to rethink my interpretation of vergil's character a little, since you're right and that arkham stab was sort of a cheap shot (to be honest I'd completely forgotten about that... how embarrassing >_>)


so vergil definitely had a lot of pride, and it might have sometimes come across as honor, but in reality it was just his pride not allowing him to do certain things. But against certain people he was willing to bend his pride a little, such as when he stabs arkham. I'd still like to think old vergil wouldn't resort to using a scoped rifle to shoot a woman in the back though. What are your thoughts on that? Would vergil's pride-masquerading-as-honor still take issue with that kind of action?

edit:
and while I'm in this thread, another thing I forgot to add to my original list of things that DMC5 should carry over from DmC. Level designs. Good god some of the level designs in classic DMC games were painful. Interesting layouts to fight on, but in terms of exploration, super meh. Also, platforming and puzzles? DMC please, you're an action game, not a puzzle platformer. Stop making me roll dice and backtrack a million miles to figure out which door I unlocked, I just want to beat things up. At least DmC made platforming enjoyable. Levels are prettier and more interesting to explore, and any puzzles that need to be solved aren't nearly as annoying or tedious

 

[Sunaka Marién]

snip
That said, I never became that good, so while it was awesome seeing godlike high level play, my play was always mediocre. Sort of stylish, effective, but not great. DmC was a welcome change, where I finally felt like it was no longer necessary to micromanage 5 styles, 3 guns, and 3 swords on the fly in order to be half way effective. At the same time, it was a bit of a bummer to realize that the unattainable goal I'd daydreamed of someday achieving had been written out of the game mechanics.

I guess that's the reason I enjoyed DmC's gamplay even a bit more than the gameplay of the classics (except for it being waaay too easy, even for me) because you can just do stuff, and have fun while also looking atleast somewhat stylish. I really think that, if given a chance for DmC2 and more tutoring from Capcom, NT could might be able to make a really good fusion of the best of both games. I really hope they'll get that chance, and make a mindblowing game. After that they can go back to DMC5 as far as I am concerned

I need new eyes

How about one of these? :troll:
http://makoeyes.com/shop/step_submain.php?b_code=B20111022113639

:lol: Maybe the demon was stealing free drink from the bar.

Drunk demons. TEH HORRORZ. Come to think of it, when you demon pull the Death Knights, they'd almost fall over and stagger around for a second as if they were drunk xD

 

[Demi-fiend]

Edit:

Reread my post. I edited it to add more to my thoughts.

people have a love hate relationship with the style system, myself included. Trying to use all 5 right off the bat is downright overwhelming, but if you master them all (no small feat, I promise) you basically become a god. Your character is an invincible, unstoppable force; not because the programmers decided you should be that powerful, but because you mastered something so mind bendingly complex that the game designers never balanced the game to handle someone actually using it to the degree you could.

Agree with this. There should be a better control scheme to at least fit two styles at once. I would map out a control scheme, but I'm not sure people would agree with it.

That said, I never became that good, so while it was awesome seeing godlike high level play, my play was always mediocre. Sort of stylish, effective, but not great. DmC was a welcome change, where I finally felt like it was no longer necessary to micromanage 5 styles, 3 guns, and 3 swords on the fly in order to be half way effective. At the same time, it was a bit of a bummer to realize that the unattainable goal I'd daydreamed of someday achieving had been written out of the game mechanics.

They'll find the right balance in the next game. Some stuff will still be taken out, but not as much as DmC.

hm, you do raise some good points. I may have to rethink my interpretation of vergil's character a little, since you're right and that arkham stab was sort of a cheap shot (to be honest I'd completely forgotten about that... how embarrassing >_>)

Well, that's good. You're keeping an open mind about this. Vergil was definitely the cool, "strong and silent" type who believed in up-front combat and no cheap tactics... with Dante. And even then, in DMC3 he would warp right up to you without warning during boss battles and almost never give you a chance to attack, so there's that, as well.

so vergil definitely had a lot of pride, and it might have sometimes come across as honor, but in reality it was just his pride not allowing him to do certain things. But against certain people he was willing to bend his pride a little, such as when he stabs arkham. I'd still like to think old vergil wouldn't resort to using a scoped rifle to shoot a woman in the back though. What are your thoughts on that? Would vergil's pride-masquerading-as-honor still take issue with that kind of action?

I'm not sure. He did shoot Arkham while he was down for the count, but that's a different scenario altogether.

Would he take out the woman and the child? Yes. I am absolutely sure that he would. We've already shown how he would rid himself of any obstacle that's in the way of his power... even his own brother.

But, would he do it with a rifle? No. Because that would sully his image. He needs to keep himself "clean" at all times.

How would he have done it then without giving away his power (because at that point, Mundus didn't know that he was a nephilim)?

I think a magical curse designed to destroy those two would have done the job. And it would have been much crueler with Vergil. He knows the black arts so, knowing him, he would have cursed them with a flesh-eating spell designed to look like a deadly virus.

It would have looked like something out of the "Raiders of the Lost Ark".

Sorry about that.

And Lilith would have died... but not before vomiting out her own child while this is happening.

I'm also sorry about that.

That's the best way I can fit Old Vergil's methodology into this situation.

Edit: Remember, New Vergil is a basterd, but Old Vergil is just downright sick. :ermm:

(he insisted on having Arkham kill his only child and admired the fact that he sacrificed his own wife for the sake of power, remember that)

His moral insanity was hidden under a shroud of elegance and self-superiority, so no one really picked up on some of his more.... twisted traits.

Edit:

He was also willing to shed some of his brother's blood to break the spell his own father had put on, therefore breaking his father's rules/honor code for the sake of his own power. He was even willing to kill Dante at the very end just to get the sword he wanted so much.

If that's not dishonorable, then I don't know what is.

Edit:

I also think he never tried anything sneaky on his brother is because he knew that it wouldn't work due to his brother's enhanced reflexes, speed, strength, and senses.

edit:
and while I'm in this thread, another thing I forgot to add to my original list of things that DMC5 should carry over from DmC. Level designs. Good god some of the level designs in classic DMC games were painful. Interesting layouts to fight on, but in terms of exploration, super meh. Also, platforming and puzzles? DMC please, you're an action game, not a puzzle platformer. Stop making me roll dice and backtrack a million miles to figure out which door I unlocked, I just want to beat things up. At least DmC made platforming enjoyable. Levels are prettier and more interesting to explore, and any puzzles that need to be solved aren't nearly as annoying or tedious

Oh my God, yes.

Any level design improvement, whether in DMC5 or DmC2, would be welcome. Maybe provide a bit more interactivity for those who didn't like the platforming (like swinging) the first time around, and I think that would be enough.