the significance of westernizing devil may cry

[absolitude]

let's discuss this

so i just read about another assassin creed game coming up.. it seriously boggles me.. how can the title keep getting another installments like yearly.. while our beloved series took 2 years each starting from 1, 2 to 3, then it took 3 years for 4, then it took 5 years for DmC.. what happened there? i sure hope it won't take more years than DmC to get another dmc title whichever

makes me wonder, how much did games like assassins creed sells per title? and which did better in sales? God of War or the original Devil May Cry?

my point is, the guys at capcom, wanted to take another direction when they decided to make DmC, what was the reason behind it? the sales or the genre?

i'm gonna stop here until i know which one did better, then we're going to expand the discussion with maybe westernization for devil may cry is needed and NT and capcom just didn't do justice for all fans, and then we may discuss how should the westernization be because if it were up to sales, maybe we would really need it if we want to keep getting sequels..

let's be objective and put the fandom aside, cuz seriously that won't work.. you know sometime change is needed, and companies wanna make more money out of their product and they have competition

 

[Innsmouth]

Well before I start, you once again opened Hell-Gate.
Now. AC titles are mainstream games like CoD that won't sell under 2 millions and mostly ride on hype alone. They are safe to milk and Ubisoft knows it, up to the point that they are ready to realease unfinished game, knowing it will still sell.
GoW sales outmatch any DMC game by 2 millions at least. That being said reason behind it, it once again more mainstream, demanding less from gamers, while using uber-violence, epic set-peaces and cinematic approach to please most of gamers.
Way I see it, Capcom probably wanted to push DMC franchise into more accessible mainstream area, with westernised approach and take a shot at GoW numbers. Problem that was ignored along the way, is that DmC is not GoW enough to be insta-hit among GoW fans and it's not DMC enough to keep all older fan base intact.

 

[Wajpa]

As far as I know GoW 3 sold 5 million, GoW 2 sold 4 million, GoW 1 sold 4.5 million and Chains of Olympus sold 3 million. Each DMC title with the exception of 4 and DmC sold about 2-2.5 million copies. DMC4 sold 3 millon on consoles and DmC sold 1.5 million. So yeah, if you compare them GoW does a lot better. Still, its not a popular genre and GoW is a way easier game to get into.

I have no idea about AC sales but I'm pretty sure that I read that AC3 sold 12 million copies. But as I said with GoW, these games are way easier to get into than Beat 'Em Ups. Why play a game where you have to be creative with combos when you can spam X to win? Also, on the topic of why AC games get released way more frequently, AC barely changes in between sequels since AC2. Each DMC sequel had a lot of innovation except the transition between DMC3 and DMC4.

I think Capcom said something about wanting to get more popular in the western market. Then again, I might be wrong about this.

Well, I don't think the westernization worked well for the series. I do believe that the marketing NT used for DmC hurt its sales but I still think more people, including me, simply prefer the over the top and nonsensical theme of the originals. In addition, I just don't think Beat 'Em Ups are popular in the western market. As you probably noticed, with CoD, Titanfall, AC, really in-depth games are simply not popular here. Sure, there are some exceptions like Dota 2 or LoL but just look at the other companies. Ubisoft with Heroes of Might and Magic 6 reduced its depth immensely. WoW gets its depth and difficulty reduced each expansion, Diablo became way easier, Heroes is just an easier version of Dota 2 and League and Hearthstone is just a way simpler copy of WoW: TCG. These are just the games I have personally experience with but there are probably way more examples. And if you just look at people playing Shadow of Mordor for example, people don't want to work to feel awesome. It's not like I hate Shadow of Mordor, I actually enjoyed it but still how much effort does the combat in that game require if you compare it to DMC or Bayonetta?

 

[NessPSI]

Devil may cry didnt really "hit off" until the third game. So unlike Assassins creed there wasnt really any immediate demand for them so to speak. DMC with its anime-ish feel and cheesy tone is a kind of game that only a portion of people would like. I hate to say it, but the US just doesnt care as much for Devil may cry as much as japan does. Japan is where it gets most of its sells and will probably stay that way. Which is probably which america is getting only a digital release of DMC4:SE, while japan gets a disk release, Limited collectors edition, a Stage play in just a few months, ect.

 

[Wuodan]

I want to write so much about it but I'll start with sale figures. Let's speak numbers.
Now; keep in mind that each God of War game is exclusive to PS only.
God of War: 4.6 million
God of War 2: 4.2 million
God of War 3: 5.2 million
God of War: Chains of Olympus: 3.26 million
God of War: Collection: 2.4 million
God of War: Ghost of Sparta: 1.2 million
God of War: Origins: 700k
Overall GOW Sales: 21.65 million
This makes GOW is the best selling Hack&Slash franchise despite being a PS exclusive.

Now let's start with DMC.
Devil May Cry: 2.16 million
Devil May Cry 2: 1.7 million
Devil May Cry 3: 1.3 million
Devil May Cry 3: Special Edition: 1 million
Devil May Cry 4: 3 million
DmC: Devil May Cry: 1.6 million
Devil May Cry HD Collection*: 1.2 million
DmC: Definitive Edition*: ~100k
*unofficial source
Overall DMC Sales: 12.06 million
See the difference? And it's despite DMC being multiplatform.

Now let's take a look at Assassin's Creed franchise.
Assassin's Creed: 11.2 million
Assassin's Creed 2: 11.25 million
Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood: 6.8 million
Assassin's Creed: Revelations: 9.09 million
Assassin's Creed III: 12.74 million
Assassin's Creed IV: Black Flag: 12.08 million
Assassin's Creed: Unity: 6.19 million
Overall AC Sales: 69.35 million
And this is not counting the smallfries of the series like Rogue, Chronicles and DS/mobile/PSP games which each sold around DMC1 or GOW Collection.

Now, let me clear something. DMC and GOW are old school games, former PS2 classics and both hadn't changed much from their inner core. ASC on the other hand is a next-gen classic as of now. It has an open world, easy and dynamic gameplay, immersive scenario and many other appealing features which allows it to be a huge seller. I mean, it's not even Hack & Slash. Comparing such a game with DMC and GOW is pointless.

Why is GOW more successful than DMC? 2 reasons. Overall gameplay mechanics and it's appealing theme setting. It's gameplay as fluid as DMC yet not as complex as it, easy and more fun to play for more casual players. And it's basis is on Greek mythology and brutality which makes GOW an interesting game in the eyes of Western consumers. Not to mention Sony is behind GOW, controlling your own market has it's advantages when it comes to releasing a game first and of course advertising it.

DMC suffers from many things. Firstly, it's too Japanese-y anime-ish tone for Western audiences maybe excluding the first 2 games. Secondly, DMC has always been a harsh game for newcomers. It's gameplay was somewhat cruel to it's players and it still is to this generation's regular player. DMC is harsh and pushes players to learn how to play rather than laying out 2-3 buttons and leaving them to mash controllers and ironically that's one of the reasons why it isn't well liked. In DMC1-2-3 era, this was okay since every other game was somewhat hard. Since then, it's not.

There's another huge reason. And it affected not just DMC, but all of the best selling franchises of Capcom. Capcom's been TERRIBLE at making business decisions in the last few years. They tried to milk every single selling game they made, alienated nearly all of their fanbase and being ignorant about the damage they done. This killed Megaman and Darkstalkers, stagnated DMC, shamed SF and almost killed Resident Evil, the IP makes Capcom breathe.

The thing about Capcom is they make small games that leaves a legacy after them. None of the most successful IPs of Capcom are AAA games, yet each of their games has their own beloved, devoted fanbases. This is also the case with DMC. They weren't aware of that. They thought their fans would buy anything anyway so they tried to appeal everyone excluding their core fanbase. The thing is, they didn't even know what they were doing! Hence, they failed miserably...

Now, did DMC needed westernization? Not necessarily but it would really help the series to success further. But did they do it right? Absolutely not. Now I know there are people who likes DmC over the original series and I'm not trying to offend everyone nor to start a flame war. I just want to point something out. Making a series go further westernization is something and throwing your core fanbase to garbage is something else. That's what happened with DmC. Most of the things that the original fanbase liked about the series was gone, therefore they lost many fans. Sure, many newcomers enjoyed the game; but most of those newcomers were people who would play anything out of boredom, therefore not the people you want to build a fanbase on.

In short, DMC was a very flawed series to begin with to sale more than 2-3 million. DmC solved some of those flaws and created equally new ones. And Capcom is the only to blame here.

Today, Capcom has a chance to improve what they have on their hands since they've finally learned from their mistakes. However, making DMC series a successful series is a huge challenge and it will take a lot of time, a lot of decision making and a lot of trial and error. First thing they have to do is regain their lost fans. Patch up their mistakes. Right now recreating DMC again as a westernized game won't do any good. They may and should try to implement things that people other than Japanese players would enjoy to future DMC titles though. You know, not making a total westernized reboot but a game with more close to DMC1's core elements and atmosphere.

Hack&slash is a tricky genre to improve and this is also a huge challenge. There are things DmC did right, there are things it lacked. And the thing is there aren't any "standards" for a H&S game's gameplay. They all lack something and they are kind of unable to compete in this generation of gaming.

In short: DMC needs radical changes in it; but without touching the core of it. What makes DMC should stay as it is and everything else should be subject to change. Otherwise things will keep going as it is now.

 

[Enigma]

I agree with much of what Wuodan said, but the DMC series has always been quite successful. There's nothing that absolutely needs improvement, it was fine as it was. It was unique and enjoyable to both eastern crowds and western crowds (though maybe a bit less to westerners than to easterners). DMC1 sold 2 million copies, DMC2 somewhere along the same lines, DMC3 1.3 at first, and DMC4 has now sold over 3 million IIRC. Those are great sales, especially for a relatively niche genre of games. It's pretty amazing DMC1 sold so well considering it was a new IP: many new IPs just sell like 1 million or something, like Dragon's Dogma (pretty much) did. It's even more amazing when you consider DMC was only for PS2, not multiplatform. I'd also have to disagree with the notion that all DMCs were hard games... DMC1 I guess was decently difficult, and DMC3 even harder, but I remember DMC2 being fairly easy and DMC4 being cake. Even if you were to spam Y/Triangle and evade occasionally, beating enemies (and even bosses) is easy. Easy to learn, difficult to master.

The genre is called hack-and-slash by the way, not beat-em-ups like Wajpa said (no offense!). Beat-em-ups are usually sidescrolling games with nonexistent stories, and one or two protagonists who quite literally beat people up, often without even using weapons. I don't know how long it's been since I've seen beat-em-ups, I remember them from arcades but nothing else.

Anyway, I've never played GoW because I was never interested in it, but I've seen it being played once or twice, and I can see why it's extra popular. Like Wuodan basically said, it caters to gamers who don't want 100% depth in their gameplay, it's just something to do after work, and it caters to people who are interested in things that are typically considered 'macho' or a western view of what's 'cool'. As far as I know it's centered on story more than gameplay, it's cinematic, and the story is fairly typical and interesting to westerners I suppose.
DMC wasn't *as* popular because it was harder and quirkier. It's like DMC was comparable to comic books, while other games are just more like Hollywood movies. There's nothing wrong with being less popular than other games, it just means it's more of an acquired taste. Me, I think there should be diversity in the gaming landscape, and westernizing DMC and making it 'mainstream' is just boring. More of the same.

The reason why there was more time between DMC4 and DmC than between DMC3 and DMC4 I guess is because they needed to find a developer (Ninja Theory), needed to draft a contract, needed to come up with a new story, redesign Dante pretty drastically, and pretty much remove all the elements of the DMC games that people loved about them in the first place... though DmC's gameplay by now (finally) is actually fairly decent. The point of DMC was that it was niche, it was hard and rewarding, and it had amazing gameplay with quirky characters that were badass as the same time. It was made for a specific section of the market, and that's what made it still rather popular. DMC3 right now is still better than DmC in most respects... heck, even DMC4 is better, aside from the backtracking and shallow Kyrie just being used as a plot point. No offense intended to anyone here of course, but DmC is simply not as good as DMC3 and DMC4 from an objective standpoint. Many people have proved that gameplay-wise it's not quite on the same level as previous games, and the story contains plotholes just like any other Devil May Cry. The writing was sometimes a bit awkward too, it tried too hard to be edgy and popular to a mainstream western crowd IMO.

The reason why they made DmC is not clear to me. I don't believe they ever said DMC was in trouble, 2005 was its hayday and DMC4 just continued the great gameplay with a few nice innovative gameplay ideas. They did have to cut DMC4's development time in half to just *one year* because somebody didn't like the story Bingo Morihashi originally came up with (I think). But its story was still decent enough to warrant a new story with either Nero or Dante, or both... or set it after DMC2. Many forum-goers have come up with interesting stories for DMC5. Right after DmC flopped, Itsuno said he wanted to make DMC5 someday... so obviously they had plans for a classic DMC story. I'm guessing they wanted to test the water with DmC to see if they could milk more money out of the series. Greed.

These are just my views, I hope I didn't offend anyone. We certainly don't need another battle between DmC and classic DMC, that's one of the reasons I left this forum. But I didn't insult anyone, so it should be okay.

 

[absolitude]

okay, first of all, my thread shouldn't open hell gate or another battle between reboot and classic, here we are supposed to discuss..

so i've got the numbers from you guys, and thanks, and wow am i surprised, i never liked both assassin's creed and God of War, and i'm still finding it hard how they managed to pull-off those numbers, just unbelievable.. I dont care if it's mainstream or not, i'm finding it hard to believe.. seriously, God of War?

and i think @Wuodan hits the spot there, the main reason DMC is loosing to those titles is more because it's too japanesey, and i don't think it's harder than the rest, cuz i always find DMC as casual, in terms like i have to, i want to finish the game if i have one, and it doesn't take much time to do it, and that they are nice stress-relieve for me.. i'm going to underline DMC3 and DmC as fun to play and stress-relieve..

if DMC4 did well, why would they decided to change the course and took 5 years for another release? if it did worked well and sales are ofc satisfying, it should be no problem to make another right? I think Capcom tried to aim higher, but they blew it up..

in all honesty, i'm fearing the series will end, even tho i know we'll be getting a sequel for the original, it didn't change the fact capcom did the reboot, now i know some of you have no problem if the series die, but it do, the hell am i supposed to play if the series die? that weird killer is dead? bayonetta in a exclusive platform? friggin God of War in a-- where will it be again now? hell no.. the only action fun h/s i could play is devil may cry..

move along, let's get to the fact capcom tried to aim higher with the series --which they failed--, and get to the possibilities the series might end if they won't have the guts to make another change, i mean if change is something feared doing, we'd still get bob kane's batman or adam west's batman today..

so in your point of view, and that the scenario of westernization is inevitable, how and what should be done? cuz there's a line of tolerance where westernization still works and still feels like japanese-y cool.. for me, movies like hell boy 2, MoS, the matrix and underworld did the feels, or game like Lords of shadow 2 --only less fun..

 

[DragonMaster2010]

First off; one thing to understand is that DMC and AC are two completely different sharks in the water. Devil May Cry as a whole is very small when it comes to it's dwindling genre. Meanwhile AC benifits because it's focus on not only easy gameplay, but the use of pakour (which was really popular back in AC1) and the history. Especially with AC3 with it's look in American history. The idea to be able to be a helping hand in creating events in history as a ninja-like assassin is a lot more interesting then hacking and shooting demons like some anime.
and GOW is in a completely different league from DMC and DmC. GOW focuses on slashing through **** without really trying, seing gore, killing giant monsters, and having sex with succubus women. THIS is what has driven GOW to the high sales. with DMC and DmC, it's just killing demons in an anime-ish sort of manner (with DmC it's killing demons in a more comic book adapted B-movie) and hearing anime inspired one liners from an over-exaggerated western voice trying to be cool. (for BOTH Dante's mind you)

Now in terms of DmC needing a western take; as a fan of DmC whose enjoyed it as much as the classic series, I'm gonna have to say no. However I think I get why it was made. Capcom wanted more money and therefore wanted to appeal to the audience that brings in the more money; the West. As such, Capcom needed to reach for a different approach with its marketing and also needed to bring in things that were western inspired, but not have to gamble at making a whole new IP. Thus, DmC: Devil may Cry. Of course, I think the first sign of Capcom's decision going sour was the negative outburst of fans right off the bat. That should've been their first indication that this would not go well, but they didn't listen, and now the series is in limbo. Sure they had definitive edition (once again done by Ninja Theory) which improved gameplay all together, but the damage was already done by that time. Too much time had passed and too many fans were lost.
The only way they'll recover from this hell is by releasing DMC4: SE. It won't get them the big numbers they would hope for, but at least it'll be enough to keep them a float. But the way I see it, if DMC1 was only 2 million in sales, then a DMC5 will probably be less then or equal to those numbers. But it depends if Capcom makes DMC5 good and actually tries to make some add-ins from the west while still keeping the anime-ish lore to it.

 

[Enigma]

if DMC4 did well, why would they decided to change the course and took 5 years for another release? if it did worked well and sales are ofc satisfying, it should be no problem to make another right? I think Capcom tried to aim higher, but they blew it up..

move along, let's get to the fact capcom tried to aim higher with the series --which they failed--, and get to the possibilities the series might end if they won't have the guts to make another change, i mean if change is something feared doing, we'd still get bob kane's batman or adam west's batman today..

so in your point of view, and that the scenario of westernization is inevitable, how and what should be done?

I don't think westernization was ever necessary, DMC was still going strong, and even managed to innovate in a time when we all thought DMC3 had already innovated the series to death with its 'style(s)' system and increased focus on comboing. DMC4 sold great in 2008, and it looks like DMC4 SE will sell pretty well too. I don't know why people think there was something terribly wrong with classic DMC. DMC4 - while its story was not particularly relevant and Dante's part of the story was cut out - was a decent successor to DMC3, and it fit the series' overall storyline too. If there's a problem with Dante's (and therefore Nero's dad Vergil's) age compared to Nero, they can easily say he's 38 in DMC4, meaning one less plothole to worry about. Or they can just say Nero isn't Vergil's biological son but an experiment. There are some minor plotholes in the series, but they can be fixed.

One thing that might've been the cause of DmC's development, is that they maybe didn't know what to do with Nero. I'm pretty sure Bingo Morihashi was fired not long after DMC4 was completed, and it's possible Capcom (for a small period of time) didn't know what to do with Nero after DMC4. So they developed DmC as a sort of stop-gap, perhaps. But that's all just speculation on my part... Capcom has never said anything remotely like that. It could be that + greed.
But it seems that if they're planning on making DMC5 (and Itsuno has referred to DMC5 a few times now), then they probably have a story that continues with Nero and/or Dante. DMC4 didn't introduce any really major plotholes, IIRC... it just started with a new story that focused on Nero, and he can even be incorporated into a story set after DMC2... it really isn't hard to develop a DMC5. Even Nero's arm and why it even exists can be explained.

 

[absolitude]

i liked the part where bingo morihashi was fired not long after.. i dunno, maybe i just got carried away with all the talking in the forum, that leads to me fearing they were planning to end the series and the long period after 4.. and like you said @Daimon Leon , it's not hard to continue after 4..

and actually tries to make some add-ins from the west while still keeping the anime-ish lore to it.

that's exactly my point DM, what n how should it be done? how should it look? how should it feel and play? for me at least, the only more japanese-y and anime-ish in the series was 4. 1 was like RE, nothing japanese-y about it other than it's made by japanese, two was --something with a cool male protagonist, 3 was like a french action movie..

but if the majority feel the game don't need to change or adapt, well.. just well

 

[berto]

Well, everyone seems rather well informed and opinionated on this particular topic.

Well, here's my opinion on this.
Yes, AC sells more because it has more wide appeal but I honestly think that it won't have the longevity amongst it's fans that DMC does. That doesn't worry me. Games like those, the annual games, are a dime a dozen and they stop being significant as soon as the new one arrives. It's true that they make much more money for the company but as a gamer I don't put much stock in them. People here have been playing DMC games for years and they will keep playing them for years to come. How many people will continue to play AC or CoD or any other annual game? Not that long. They will play it once or twice in their lives and probably put it down for good after a small while.

It is true, though, that because of that we only get a release on a random while when the stars align and other franchises get the company's attention and priority thus making our product suffer, aka DMC4 been half a game because RE5 needed the money and manpower. There is no getting around that.

Still, the westernization is a point of high debate since it's inception. We've all seen that and it's taken a long time to accept it and discuss it rationally even amongst ourselves. In my opinion, though, I think this was a move that was a reaction to people's criticisms of DMC4 which was very Japanese and borderline anime but here's the thing, DMC4 is not the most prevalent of the franchise, it is not indicative of what the overall franchise is like. The most prevalent is DMC3 and though it has issues it is the most popular of all the DMCs and DMC4 is almost nothing like it. The esthetics are so different it's practically fan art.

Visually and artistically DMC4 has more in common with Sengoku Basara than with DMC's i, 2 or 3 and here is where the problems start to arise, since DMC4 is the last game released and the one that sold the most everyone thinks that everything wrong with DMC4 expands to the rest of the franchise, which is just not true. If you want to compare aesthetics DMC1 is a Resident Evil game and if DMC1 is anime then so is RE and we all know that's not true. It's Japanese alright, but not anime. So with people saying that DMC is running out of ideas and it feels too anime and 'Japanese-y' even though the reality is that that was just DMC4 and not the franchise as a whole Capcom probably took it to heart.

The problem with DMC4 is that it was too bright and pretty, full of uninteresting environments while it's predecessors, even DMC2, were dark and full of oppressing atmospheres. Even if the ones in DMC1 are the only ones that one would consider succesfully horror the other two games certainly tried and made something interesting out of their worlds. DMC4, though, didn't want to scare girls and opted to not even try. While the first 3 games had gothic and art nouveau architectures mixed with other classical styles DMC4 goes with something almost strictly baroque or victorian, which are all very pretty but not exactly the most scary.

Bottom line, whenever people talk about the aesthetics of DMC and whatever it's wrong with them they are always talking about DMC4 and they are alway clomping the entire franchise with it. Those were the arguments that I mostly saw when people would talk about why DmC needed to happen; they never said DMC4 was too anime, they said DMC in general was. I never had these discussions when DMC3 was still new but now, suddenly, even it is too anime and anything Japanese is, too.

The solution was never to make the games more western. If the games were never that good because they were so Japanese and not western enough then why does anyone here like them at all? Why does anyone like Resident Evil or any Japanese franchise? The problem is was never that. The issue is that DMC games are no longer like the PS2 games. I know that sounds like a rather counter productive perspective the PS2 games were the ones that the franchise is best known for and the ones that game the franchise it's popularity among its fans. DMC is one of the franchises that suffered when the PS3/360 era came and whatever it was that made those great games then is suddenly lacking with their sequels in the 7th generation. It's almost the same thing that happened between RE HD and RE6.

 

[absolitude]

Well, everyone seems rather well informed and opinionated on this particular topic.

Well, here's my opinion on this.
Yes, AC sells more because it has more wide appeal but I honestly think that it won't have the longevity amongst it's fans that DMC does. That doesn't worry me. Games like those, the annual games, are a dime a dozen and they stop being significant as soon as the new one arrives. It's true that they make much more money for the company but as a gamer I don't put much stock in them. People here have been playing DMC games for years and they will keep playing them for years to come. How many people will continue to play AC or CoD or any other annual game? Not that long. They will play it once or twice in their lives and probably put it down for good after a small while.

It is true, though, that because of that we only get a release on a random while when the stars align and other franchises get the company's attention and priority thus making our product suffer, aka DMC4 been half a game because RE5 needed the money and manpower. There is no getting around that.

Still, the westernization is a point of high debate since it's inception. We've all seen that and it's taken a long time to accept it and discuss it rationally even amongst ourselves. In my opinion, though, I think this was a move that was a reaction to people's criticisms of DMC4 which was very Japanese and borderline anime but here's the thing, DMC4 is not the most prevalent of the franchise, it is not indicative of what the overall franchise is like. The most prevalent is DMC3 and though it has issues it is the most popular of all the DMCs and DMC4 is almost nothing like it. The esthetics are so different it's practically fan art.

Visually and artistically DMC4 has more in common with Sengoku Basara than with DMC's i, 2 or 3 and here is where the problems start to arise, since DMC4 is the last game released and the one that sold the most everyone thinks that everything wrong with DMC4 expands to the rest of the franchise, which is just not true. If you want to compare aesthetics DMC1 is a Resident Evil game and if DMC1 is anime then so is RE and we all know that's not true. It's Japanese alright, but not anime. So with people saying that DMC is running out of ideas and it feels too anime and 'Japanese-y' even though the reality is that that was just DMC4 and not the franchise as a whole Capcom probably took it to heart.

The problem with DMC4 is that it was too bright and pretty, full of uninteresting environments while it's predecessors, even DMC2, were dark and full of oppressing atmospheres. Even if the ones in DMC1 are the only ones that one would consider succesfully horror the other two games certainly tried and made something interesting out of their worlds. DMC4, though, didn't want to scare girls and opted to not even try. While the first 3 games had gothic and art nouveau architectures mixed with other classical styles DMC4 goes with something almost strictly baroque or victorian, which are all very pretty but not exactly the most scary.

Bottom line, whenever people talk about the aesthetics of DMC and whatever it's wrong with them they are always talking about DMC4 and they are alway clomping the entire franchise with it. Those were the arguments that I mostly saw when people would talk about why DmC needed to happen; they never said DMC4 was too anime, they said DMC in general was. I never had these discussions when DMC3 was still new but now, suddenly, even it is too anime and anything Japanese is, too.

The solution was never to make the games more western. If the games were never that good because they were so Japanese and not western enough then why does anyone here like them at all? Why does anyone like Resident Evil or any Japanese franchise? The problem is was never that. The issue is that DMC games are no longer like the PS2 games. I know that sounds like a rather counter productive perspective the PS2 games were the ones that the franchise is best known for and the ones that game the franchise it's popularity among its fans. DMC is one of the franchises that suffered when the PS3/360 era came and whatever it was that made those great games then is suddenly lacking with their sequels in the 7th generation. It's almost the same thing that happened between RE HD and RE6.

i like your analysis, and you share some of my view, the way DMC4 is nothing like DMC3, and i think you hit the words right, it's almost like a fanart.. while most fans accept that, i can't, i was expecting a successor for DMC3, but like i said, no matter how much i didn't like it, i still finish the game because i have to and want to..

but i don't think DMC4 is what made capcom came up with DmC, i'm still on my stand that they tried to aim higher but failing at it, and i'm truly surprised knowing the development of 4 was held back by RE5, pricks.

my topic about why westernization MIGHT be needed is to just capcom's reason for more bucks, since statistics of other franchise proves it, like GoW, no matter if it's a different genre --i'm still shocked by the numbers btw-- and another reason for westernization is to get more fanbase --which they failed with DmC--, but oh well, least i'm still on their train..

anyway since nobody cared about HOW dmc westernization should be from fans pov, i conclude that it's not needed.. thing is, i wanted the series to advance and evolve into something acceptable for fans, something grand.. my ideal view will be like Lords of shadow 1 and 2.. since most enjoyed the game too.. Alucard's re-imagining worked nicely, fans still love it; how grand the story was in the first game worked nicely; if we add the fun dmc mechanics and gameplay and universe to it, that's my ideal westernization.. it could work, funny how them developers writers didn't do that, risky maybe, as history has proven..

come to think of it, what was the sale numbers for LoS1 and 2? and i seem to remember reading it didn't work for the original fans too, only not as much as DMC..

oh and guys, thx so much for not making the thread a civil war, i always knew we could manage this..

 

[berto]

my topic about why westernization MIGHT be needed is to just capcom's reason for more bucks, since statistics of other franchise proves it, like GoW, no matter if it's a different genre --i'm still shocked by the numbers btw-- and another reason for westernization is to get more fanbase --which they failed with DmC--, but oh well, least i'm still on their train..

An interesting point on this, the script for RE: Revelations 2 was written by Japanese staff in Japan and American writers for the US version. Capcom isn't scrapping or ignoring the fact that they need western help to appeal to the west. How and what kind of help probably varies on game to game bases. In DMC's case I think they should consider help with the script rather than help with the game's image, to come up with a story and get some help 'translating' it to the rest of the world.

 

[Chancey289]

An interesting point on this, the script for RE: Revelations 2 was written by Japanese staff in Japan and American writers for the US version. Capcom isn't scrapping or ignoring the fact that they need western help to appeal to the west. How and what kind of help probably varies on game to game bases. In DMC's case I think they should consider help with the script rather than help with the game's image, to come up with a story and get some help 'translating' it to the rest of the world.

There's no denying the petty and unreal reasons why the latest game was condemned by a majority of the fanbase though. You'd have to be pretty naive to call this fanbase for the most part mature.

It was still a Devil May Cry game through and through regardless of what those people think makes a Devil May Cry. Saying otherwise is like saying you just don't get Devil May Cry.

 

[berto]

There's no denying the petty and unreal reasons why the latest game was condemned by a majority of the fanbase though. You'd have to be pretty naive to call this fanbase for the most part mature.

It was still a Devil May Cry game through and through regardless of what those people think makes a Devil May Cry. Saying otherwise is like saying you just don't get Devil May Cry.

You see, that's even a point of debate with me, too. I don't consider DmC a DMC game, either. I don't condemn it, not anymore, but I don't see it as a part of the same congregation in the same way I don't see MegaMan X and Megaman Zero been the same. They are the same franchise but I would never call MegaMan Zero 2 a MegaMan X game.

 

[Chancey289]

You see, that's even a point of debate with me, too. I don't consider DmC a DMC game, either. I don't condemn it, not anymore, but I don't see it as a part of the same congregation in the same way I don't see MegaMan X and Megaman Zero been the same. They are the same franchise but I would never call MegaMan Zero 2 a MegaMan X game.

Then what the hell is it? Scooby Doo?

I still consider all those games MegaMan games and I'm a MASSIVE MegaMan fan. I don't think that comparison applies here.

DmC has fast and furious hack n slash combat that's totally obsessed with style, with a gun and sword toting protagonist who spouts cheesy one liners and is cocky. This cocky and brash protagonist also has a brother who's more calm and collected while lusting for power and holding his supernatural lineage to higher regard.

I missed the part where none of this is Devil May Cry.

A re-imagined Devil May Cry reboot, but a Devil May Cry nonetheless.

 

[LordOfDarkness]

@Chancey289: I respect your opinion, man. But I'm just going to say that this isn't the place to be discussing whether DmC was a Devil May Cry game or whether it deserves to be called one and hold a place within the DMC series. I'm just saying dude.

 

[berto]

Then what the hell is it? Scooby Doo?

Dude, chill.

What did I say? Same franchise. I wasn't talking code. Are you telling me that MegaMan X and Zero are the same thing? That these two are the exact same person?:

No, they are different interpretations of the same character but they are not the same. That's how I it. Do you really find that so condemning?

DmC has fast and furious hack n slash combat that's totally obsessed with style, with a gun and sword toting protagonist who spouts cheesy one liners and is cocky. This cocky and brash protagonist also has a brother who's more calm and collected while lusting for power and holding his supernatural lineage to higher regard.

If that's all it takes, for a description to match, then the Matrix and the Lego Movie are the same, too.

But I'm just going to say that this isn't the place to be discussing whether DmC was a Devil May Cry game or whether it deserves to be called one and hold a place within the DMC series. I'm just saying dude.

Fair enough.

 

[Demi-fiend]

If that's all it takes, for a description to match, then the Matrix and the Lego Movie are the same, too.

I'm assuming you saw this video.

To be honest, yes I absolutely do consider these two to be the same movie.

There's "honest homage," and then there's straight-up copying (through several sources).

http://www.cracked.com/article_18530_5-pop-culture-classics-created-out-laziness_p2.html

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http://www.cracked.com/article_19443_7-classic-movies-you-didnt-know-were-rip-offs.html

By blending The Invisibles with Dark City and Ghost in the Shell -- and then using the aesthetics of Blade to wrap around it, they created something that only seems to be entirely new.

[23:20]

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Edit:

What I mean to say is that Devil May Cry 1 is guilty of this, as well.

It also had plenty of inspiration from Blade, Matrix, and Symphony of the Night. DMC1 even had an upside-down section whereas SotN had it's own alternate castle.

Majora's Mask is also a factor when you consider it's own upside-down dungeon and white-haired, godlike, Fierce Deity Link.

Edit:

And that isn't even bringing up the Gibdo Mask serving as an inspiration for Gilver (come on, even their names sound somewhat alike).

http://zeldawiki.org/Gibdo_Mask

So really, no game is truly immune. They're all alike in one way or another (in their own respective genres, I mean).

[Before Dante]

At least MM had ninjas -- all DMC1 had was a delusional samurai.

 

[Chancey289]

I am chilled, albeit maybe a little frustrated with some things at the moment so I apologize if some animosity slipped through in to my post.

The term westernization is tossed around like it's synonymous with bad and it just sounds like I'm hearing a bunch of weeaboo complaints. I would rather block out those cries.

After the abysmal DMC 4, Devil May Cry needed something. DMC 4 was pretty much a prime example of the series getting pushed through the ringer. Whether or not that something was a full blown reboot is up in the air. It wasn't a killer app, nor was it a failure. It did however stir the pot with this series giving it some life once again and some fresh air. It also garnered some new fans which this series pretty much needs if it hopes to survive in the long term. I still had fun with the game and that's what I mainly look for when it comes to video games. Don't agree with that, then well sue me.

Whether it be a sequel to the latest game, or back to the original, I just want it to be good and want this series to still be around because I love it and am here for a reason.