The Fine Line of Change

[Terrutas]

Chancey, please stop double posting and use the Edit button. It's there for a reason.

It's making my eyes bleed. >;_; see? :<

 

[Demi-fiend]

I paid $60 for both Kingdoms of Amalur and Darksiders II.

I REGRET NOTHING.

 

[VineBigBoss]

I don't care about what I score when playing a DMC game but I know I'm not an amateur player either. If it were up to me then the letter grade ranking system would be thrown out and simply replaced with a points system. So the game doesn't show the players who aren't that great that it hates them and the ones who really rack up high numbers would gain their bragging rights through that. I hate this elitist attitude games especially like this the players adapt. It really does discourage anyone else because it makes a community of gamers who feel as if the ones who can't rack up SSS don't belong here or something. Adam Sessler really hit the nail on the head about stuff like this.

You're a casual player and it's written on your face, not intend to offend you, but you don't seem to even understand the mechanics of DMC games, mainly for DMC4 who has the most diverse and deep mechanic from all the series. Do you even jump cancel, brah? You come with this "argument" and call DMC fans "crybabys"? Just look to what you're saying: you find it better to have a crap ranking system with no good criterias for everyone to feel good and "welcome" to the game, it's another proof why the "casualize it" philosophy from NT downgraded the gameplay to a dumb level; the best ranking system of the series was at DMC3, where it counted various aspects of you run like the damage taken (who needs to be 0 at DMD for a S rank), time, stylish points, item usage and orbs.

They did nerf it. I just told you NT actually accessed this stuff.

And where i said they've not? Jesus Christ, you have a hard time understanding stuff.

You'd didn't play Vergil's Downfall so you'll just pass rash assumptions that Vergil doesn't play differently even though everyone who really plays it and dives in to it can tell you he differs quite a bit.

I can say nearly the same about what you're saying about Nero and Dante, Vorgil in DmC is not a complete different gameplay from Donte, it's the same foundation with some different mechancis and that's it, just like Nero is to Dante. You're reducing the diferences from Nero to Dante to nothing just for the sake of setting up a defense to DmC.

Nero basically brought nothing but the grappling and DmC's angel and demon pull are evolutions of Nero's arm and Vergil's teleportation in one package.

It's not an evolution, it's the exact same ****. DmC just took the concept and translated it to his own world and added an independent grab mechanic to it (which already existed in Devil Bringer but depends on the enemy you're fighting).

They did listen. They also shouldn't listen though to the ridiculous crybaby butthurt fans. I mean hell, do you even want to have a conversation with them? It's better to listen to the ones worth listening too.

They HAD to listen, because they are new and inexperienced company that is incapable of doing a game that's not glitchy, broken or seriously poorly-designed. All the DD thing was a miscalculation by NT, one failure in the design of the movement itself, they're a new company with little experience and it's expected they commit such errors.

THIS BROKEN GOD MODE MECHANIC DOES EXIST! And we know it's not replacing MGS. Just like DmC isn't replacing the original. They said this multiple times. DmC however pays homage and tribute to its predecessors. MGR still has the METAL GEAR in the name so us Metal Gear fans still expect that Metal Gear experience. I never said MGR is bad but it is not Metal Gear. P* is all about "style over substance" Metal Gear is about both. Kojima didn't work on the game and that's obvious. Am I condemning it for that? No. Am I disappointed? Sure. Especially since Kojima wanted to make the Gray Fox game all us fans have been asking for and we got stupid Raiden instead. I'm positive Gray Fox is more universally loved and Metal Gear fans would have wanted a Gray Fox game. Guess Komami isn't listening to fans though. I swear it was the butthurt DMC fans that gave more attention to Rising than actual Metal Gears fans did. Thank goodness The Phantom Pain is on the way so enjoy your short lived mediocre hack n slasher.

Fast forward to 11:20 for the HUGE exploitation I discovered playing the game. I'm not asking you to watch the review but Joe was the only other person that actually also caught on to this and it deserves attention if you honestly feel the need to antagonize DmC and not point out a very bad flaw the one you personally enjoy for your own reasons.

Yeah, it is possible to just spam parry and doesn't get hit by the enemies normals attacks (most of the bosses have attacks that cannot be parried if you don't do a just frame parry), and it is as moronic as the dodge i-frames on DmC. They give an easy way to the player get no punishment from errors, i don't like this easyness too. DmC doesn't get attention because it's a mediocre game compared to the DMC original series, it became hidden in the shadow of the greatness of other DMC games, the "butthurt from DMC fans" was just the spice for the market failure of this game. If they had made a new IP out of this ideas the market outcome could be much different.

The creative dead end is obvious. DMC just copping out and copy and pasting things just shows their lack of creativity and maybe it was just a cry for help to get you to stop buying these games because they were tired of making them. There is nearly 0 effort to introduce enough new features and characters that really give you a reason to say DMC has sure evolved because it just looks as if it's all running on fumes. The game overall never did anything to really push itself as you still just kept seeing the same gothic castles, the same stupid drama, the same anime cliched characters, etc. etc. it's not just what you think is better because saying DMC was going stale brings in multiple things of as to why some players felt that way. Of course you're just one of those people who just doesn't want that change and sees nothing wrong in your personal preferences so you think it's the voice of the entire fandom and anyone who doesn't agree with that just doesn't get Devil May Cry.

DMC1 is totally different from DMC2, which is totally different from DMC3. The only similar games on the franchise are DMC3 and 4, this argument doesn't fit the reality. And what DmC introduced that was new for the franchise? Absolutely nothing, it only dumbed down arguably the best hack'n'slash mechanics already made until today, get your facts straight, and don't come with that "creative edge" bullshit because story-wise DmC is as crappy as much DMC games, the only thing that DMC is worse is the plotholes DMC4 inserted on the franchise storyline. The sellings and the opinion of much people on this forum and mainly on PhantomBabies forums doesn't agree with you, and they were people who really loved and played the old DMC series, and DMC was never for you if you don't ever liked this traits on the franchise. You're just a casual butthurt because your game with social commentary did a pathetic job on sellings, and the reality hurts that DMC old series is miles away from DmC as a game as people already discussed why exhaustively on another topics like "Why do you want a DMC5?" or in this very topic.

EDIT: And i'm done with this discussion, you simple choose to ignore all the discussion on another topics and starts to talk about the same things all the time. They're already have been answered, even the real failures of the old DMC series had and i've admited its failures, even if the purpose of the game itself was not intended to give the experience some players says they want to have in DMC.

 

[CheeseKao]

You're a casual player and it's written on your face, not intend to offend you, but you don't seem to even understand the mechanics of DMC games, mainly for DMC4 who has the most diverse and deep mechanic from all the series. Do you even jump cancel, brah? You come with this "argument" and call DMC fans "crybabys"? Just look to what you're saying: you find it better to have a crap ranking system with no good criterias for everyone to feel good and "welcome" to the game, it's another proof why the "casualize it" philosophy from NT downgraded the gameplay to a dumb level; the best ranking system of the series was at DMC3, where it counted various aspects of you run like the damage taken (who needs to be 0 at DMD for a S rank), time, stylish points, item usage and orbs.

The no damage thing in DMC3 to me is simply dumb. Anybody can get the no damage bonus if they restart enough times or use cheap tactics so it isn't entirely skill based.

 

[Stylish Nero]

The no damage thing in DMC3 to me is simply dumb. Anybody can get the no damage bonus if they restart enough times or use cheap tactics so it isn't entirely skill based.

It takes skill (maybe not much) to not get hit in DMC3, even on Easy mode. In DmC, getting a no damage bonus is practically easy since enemies signal their attacks and attack extremely slowly and Dante is overpowered with his easy to access aNd perform abilities and even if you don't get a no damage bonus you can still get a mission rank of SSS (the highest) even if you died once....or more than once. I died 4 times and I still got a SSS.

Plus in DMC3, getting a no damage bonus only helped your score it doesn't give you an instant S.

In DMC3, I only got a S rank in like 2-3 missions on easy mode/normal mode. In DMC4, 1-2 missions. DmC....practically SSS on every difficulty.

Its those Lost Souls, if you find them all in a mission you are guaranteed to get at least A/S mission rank if you messed up a lot while playing. At least with DMC3 it takes skill to find cheap tactics and properly execute them. It takes no skill to find a lost soul/hidden item since you can find them in via Youtube videos walkthrough/guides if your having a hard time finding the last few (and they're not hidden that great either).

 

[CheeseKao]

It takes skill (maybe not much) to not get hit in DMC3, even on Easy mode. In DmC, getting a no damage bonus is practically easy since enemies signal their attacks and attack extremely slowly and Dante is overpowered with his easy to access aNd perform abilities and even if you don't get a no damage bonus you can still get a mission rank of SSS (the highest) even if you died once....or more than once. I died 4 times and I still got a SSS.

Plus in DMC3, getting a no damage bonus only helped your score it doesn't give you an instant S.

In DMC3, I only got a S rank in like 2-3 missions on easy mode/normal mode. In DMC4, 1-2 missions. DmC....practically SSS on every difficulty.

Its those Lost Souls, if you find them all in a mission you are guaranteed to get at least A/S mission rank if you messed up a lot while playing. At least with DMC3 it takes skill to find cheap tactics and properly execute them. It takes no skill to find a lost soul/hidden item since you can find them in via Youtube videos walkthrough/guides if your having a hard time finding the last few (and they're not hidden that great either).

Well I'm not denying that it's easy to get S ranks in DmC(Main game only. VD's ranking is stricter)but, IMO, the no damage bonus thing shouldn't be there because almost everyone is bound to get hit given DMC3's difficulty and that damage thing is almost always the thing that drags people's rank down. It's not a challenge to get no damage as it's more of a chore from my point of view.

 

[VineBigBoss]

The no damage thing in DMC3 to me is simply dumb. Anybody can get the no damage bonus if they restart enough times or use cheap tactics so it isn't entirely skill based.

It's still more demanding than the criterias of DMC4, DMC or DmC. If your argument is that the mission can be restarted so every game in the world is dumb with their criterias to make rankings for the players to attain, what do you wanted? For the player to try the mission one time per week? The difficult is inherent to the level/enemy design and game mode (DMD, Hard, Normal) and not to the time the player spend training on it, training means attaining skills to accomplish your objective (this includes gain of muscle memory), don't you think? And cheap tactics exists, but they are very limited (cheap tactics exists more for exploiting bosses AIs than anything in DMC3, for example), and still they have to be done very consistently like looping Geryon into his quicksilver + circle attack or using a fully charged just release in the weak point of Beowulf to do a ton of damage (and remember that to still attain the S rank you need to do only gold parries, one silver parry will drop your rank to A), staying in the "safe" (you still have to dodge some of his attacks, like the grounding freezing one or the dropping ice from the ceilling) zone while fighting Cerberus can be considered cheap too, and if you're good enough with GL you can make the fight rather fast while attaining some stylish points, but it still needs skill, training and experimentation with GL style to accomplish this with a cheap tactic. It's not as easy as you think it is, you could try to see some cheap tactics on YouTube and give yourself a try to do an SS run, it's fun and you will see your opinion changing just in the earlier missions in the game.

 

[CheeseKao]

It's still more demanding than the criterias of DMC4, DMC or DmC. If your argument is that the mission can be restarted so every game in the world is dumb with their criterias to make rankings for the players to attain, what do you wanted? For the player to try the mission one time per week? The difficult is inherent to the level/enemy design and game mode (DMD, Hard, Normal) and not to the time the player spend training on it, training means attaining skills to accomplish your objective (this includes gain of muscle memory), don't you think? And cheap tactics exists, but they are very limited (cheap tactics exists more for exploiting bosses AIs than anything in DMC3, for example), and still they have to be done very consistently like looping Geryon into his quicksilver + circle attack or using a fully charged just release in the weak point of Beowulf to do a ton of damage (and remember that to still attain the S rank you need to do only gold parries, one silver parry will drop your rank to A), staying in the "safe" (you still have to dodge some of his attacks, like the grounding freezing one or the dropping ice from the ceilling) zone while fighting Cerberus can be considered cheap too, and if you're good enough with GL you can make the fight rather fast while attaining some stylish points, but it still needs skill, training and experimentation with GL style to accomplish this with a cheap tactic. It's not as easy as you think it is, you could try to see some cheap tactics on YouTube and give yourself a try to do an SS run, it's fun and you will see your opinion changing just in the earlier missions in the game.

Actually, I personally think that all ranking systems are a bit flawed because it is not a good representation of one's skill. I have tried doing several missions without taking damage at all and while I did succeed, it was extremely tedious and I don't think I deserve that S rank considering the tactics I used.

 

[VineBigBoss]

I agree with you, a computer is really "blind" to see the real skills of a player, but the devs cannot go anywhere if they just take this assumption and take all the work to a lower ground just because it's not a perfect representation of one person skill. If you attained some SS ranks on DMC3 (on high difficult modes) you deserved it, the minimum skill it takes is understanding the very foundations of combat and enemy design on the game (like audio and visual clues to their attacks). You cannot just rush through the game taking hits anywhere, and doing direct assaults on monsters. My favourite style in DMC3 is the RG style, although it's not useful in every situation, patience is the key to that style, you can kill a Hell Vanguard in seconds if you take your time to learn how to do gold parries on all his attacks and do DT+Full Just release on his face, it takes some skill to execute this with perfection, but the game gives you this tools as a reward to little accomplishments with you need to put some effort (doing a gold parry is not that hard, but learning every monster timing and actually using this knowledge in the middle of a heated battle can be tough).

 

[Loopy]

Actually, I personally think that all ranking systems are a bit flawed because it is not a good representation of one's skill. I have tried doing several missions without taking damage at all and while I did succeed, it was extremely tedious and I don't think I deserve that S rank considering the tactics I used.

True, and though I enjoy DmC the game gives out top rankings too easily. You can collect all keys, souls and doors but have a low combat ranking and still get SSS at the end.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Its those Lost Souls, if you find them all in a mission you are guaranteed to get at least A/S mission rank if you messed up a lot while playing. At least with DMC3 it takes skill to find cheap tactics and properly execute them. It takes no skill to find a lost soul/hidden item since you can find them in via Youtube videos walkthrough/guides if your having a hard time finding the last few (and they're not hidden that great either).

How is that any different from the "Orbs" parameter that requires the player find all the hidden orbs in a level in order to get the best possible score for that parameter? All DmC did there was make it a permanent grade once you found something, so that you didn't have to waste your time (another scoring parameter) looking for them every single run.

All in all, I still find all the complaints about the Style meter and Style ranking systems to be rather unnecessary. Are they different? Yes, they sure are. The bigger question though is - does it matter? I say "no, it doesn't," because in the end all those systems are for is getting a greater payout for more skills and items.

If you were to remove all the grading and ranking systems from the entirety of the franchise, what would happen? Nothing. The games would literally be exactly the same, except it's no longer patting you on the back and giving you more growth currency for not getting hit while being aggressive. It would only take longer to get new skills and items because you're no longer getting a bonus for killing enemies, but a flat rate.

And in the end, the pro-level play used in TrueStyle tournaments doesn't even factor in those arbitrary ranking systems. The entire game is about killing demons and looking cool doing it, and the ranking does little more than incentivize not repeating moves ad nauseum, which in the end still means nothing when people Jump Cancel to repeat certain moves ad nauseum.

Not to mention, complaining about how DmC's scoring systems are too forgiving, but we're so quick to forget that the game was meant to be more welcoming, and being forgiving does that. I also wonder how many of these mechanical changes actually came from the Capcom side, and aren't NT's "fault." It was Itsuno who wanted to get rid of the target lock, all the way back in DMC3 even. What if he was the one who wanted to modify the scoring system, too?

 

[VineBigBoss]

.

I agree with you, it's like i said to Chancey: the combo ranking system doesn't affect the gameplay itself, but i can understand people complaining about it (as i can understand people complaining about DMC4 story who looks like a giant plothole in a shape of a game, even if story is not the main purpose of that games existence) because its like a side effect to the casualized gameplay itself. If it where only the combo ranking system by itself who were flawled it would be somewhat retarded to point this out to say that DmC is a bad game compared to its predecessors just because a combo ranking system that not affect the mechanics by itself, even the DMC3 combo ranking system is kinda dumb, but it's by some means more demanding than DmC's one.

But i think that the overall ranking system encouraged the players to understand the deepness of the mechanics by itself, i could go as far to say that people would not even care for the deepness of the combat if they were not put in situations were they needed to explore it to make things run smoothly on high difficult levels. I mean, usually people thinks they've mastered the game once they finished the highest difficult mode, but with DMC (mainly in DMC3 and 4, but at some level in DMC too) it ended taking higher grounds because of the exploration once done looking for the accomplishment of high difficult challenges encouraged by the game like doing an complete SS run on DMD to show your total ranking to your friends, other players or completing the Bloody Palace.

 

[ChaserTech]

The no damage thing in DMC3 to me is simply dumb. Anybody can get the no damage bonus if they restart enough times or use cheap tactics so it isn't entirely skill based.

This.
A thousand times this.

People these days believe that A-ranking games and unlocking all of the achievements actually takes a lot of skill, which it doesn't. Anyone can figure out how to abuse certain tactics in order to get easy score rankings. It takes actual skill to sit down an understand advanced mechanics of a game, as well as being able to execute them.

 

[Terrutas]

This.
A thousand times this.

People these days believe that A-ranking games and unlocking all of the achievements actually takes a lot of skill, which it doesn't. Anyone can figure out how to abuse certain tactics in order to get easy score rankings. It takes actual skill to sit down an understand advanced mechanics of a game, as well as being able to execute them.

dmc4 is a bad gaem bcuz A ranking it is borng cuz u becktrek

 

[TWOxACROSS]

This.
A thousand times this.

People these days believe that A-ranking games and unlocking all of the achievements actually takes a lot of skill, which it doesn't. Anyone can figure out how to abuse certain tactics in order to get easy score rankings. It takes actual skill to sit down an understand advanced mechanics of a game, as well as being able to execute them.

Holy sh!t. Welcome back.

And this is also what I've been saying - humans will always find the easiest way to achieve something in games. Again, it's why they call them "exploits." Some are just easier than others. The bigger problem is that sometimes the options exist as exploits because there's no other way to rectify the problem it causes without just removing it entirely :S


Hell, even with DmC, as great as an exploit as Demon Dodge can be, I didn't base my entire playstyle around it. It was boring, and I wanted to play with and learn all the other mechanics the game had to offer. But...that's just me...and I play my games for fun, not to blaze through it as easily as possible.

 

[VineBigBoss]

This.
A thousand times this.

People these days believe that A-ranking games and unlocking all of the achievements actually takes a lot of skill, which it doesn't. Anyone can figure out how to abuse certain tactics in order to get easy score rankings. It takes actual skill to sit down an understand advanced mechanics of a game, as well as being able to execute them.

Your post complement mine and summarize the whole point of my last post: an well-made overall ranking system (for a hack'n'slash game) could serve as an encouragement for the players to actually learn and master advanced and basics of a game mechanics by proposing challenges that implies acquiring knowledge and actually puting it into practice by training yourself to react at the game timing. Understanding the game mechanic is the ultimate skill to beat any challenges within a game. Most of the trophie/achievment whores doesn't get this point, for example: i have 97% of completion of the trophies for Assassin's Creed 2 here on my PSN, but i barely have 20 hours of gameplay, the game has a shallow gameplay and i don't needed to put a lot of work to do this, the purpose of this game is to give the players that cinematic and story-oriented feel; while i have 36 hours with Dante in my DMC3 HD and not even completed the DMD mode (with any final ranking), with Vergil i have at least 8 hours and don't even tackled the Very Hard mode.

 

[ChaserTech]

Holy sh!t. Welcome back.

lol yeah, I pop in every now and then.

Your post complement mine and summarize the whole point of my last post: an well-made overall ranking system (for a hack'n'slash game) could serve as an encouragement for the players to actually learn and master advanced and basics of a game mechanics by proposing challenges that implies acquiring knowledge and actually puting it into practice by training yourself to react at the game timing. Understanding the game mechanic is the ultimate skill to beat any challenges within a game. Most of the trophie/achievment whores doesn't get this point, for example: i have 97% of completion of the trophies for Assassin's Creed 2 here on my PSN, but i barely have 20 hours of gameplay, the game has a shallow gameplay and i don't needed to put a lot of work to do this, the purpose of this game is to give the players that cinematic and story-oriented feel; while i have 36 hours with Dante in my DMC3 HD and not even completed the DMD mode (with any final ranking), with Vergil i have at least 8 hours and don't even tackled the Very Hard mode.

Whenever I see trophies/achievements in a game, half of the time I think they are only there just to add a false way of extending the game's lifespan. And you're right. Achievements/Trophies should encourage a player to understand more about the game as well as practicing techniques, rather than complete a few easy missions and being awarded for minimal effort.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Whenever I see trophies/achievements in a game, half of the time I think they are only there just to add a false way of extending the game's lifespan. And you're right. Achievements/Trophies should encourage a player to understand more about the game as well as practicing techniques, rather than complete a few easy missions and being awarded for minimal effort.

I always found this to be the problem with "cheevos" and such. They should be rewards for doing stuff that actually worth the merit, not things that will get done just by normal play.

Like...it shouldn't be "Activate Demon Dodge X Times" but something like "Kill X enemies in one Demon Dodge," because it incentivizes the player learning how best to accomplish that specific feat, rather than just dodging however many times it takes.

I think Crackdown did a good job, because its cheevos were outside the normal scope of play, and wanted the players to mess around and learn new things, like juggling an enemy X times in the air with gunfire, or falling from the highest point in the city and surviving. Those take practice, and know-how of the mechanics! Either to learn how to effectively juggle, or knowing how to make the most out of your climbing agility, and then how to survive that fall.

 

[IncarnatedDemon]

or..."You just Jump cancelled. Was it a fluke?"

"You JCed again, still don't believe it wasn't a fluke!"

"Third JC? You've learned it"

"5 JC? The student have become the master"

 

[GF9000000Returns]

*sigh* Man....I sure miss the days when people played games for fun.