The Fine Line of Change

[Chancey289]

Fair enough but a little advice: using the word bitching is wrong.
I interpret it as in "His points is invalid" to me, and id be shocked if anyone else interpreted this differently.


To contribute to the discussion your having with that other person: Hideki Kamiya said the story in Bayo is there to be a break from the gameplay. As for games getting boring: all games do when you play them to much.
But what you should accept is that some games should take a break or possibly die.
If you had great fun with a game, i am very sure that a year or two after youll again have great fun with it once again.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Fair enough but a little advice: using the word bitching is wrong.
I interpret it as in "His points is invalid" to me, and id be shocked if anyone else interpreted this differently.

That's what I'm talking about >.< That it'd be stupid saying "your point is invalid" with a claim like "no one is forcing you to play."

To contribute to the discussion your having with that other person: Hideki Kamiya said the story in Bayo is there to be a break from the gameplay. As for games getting boring: all games do when you play them to much.
But what you should accept is that some games should take a break or possibly die.
If you had great fun with a game, i am very sure that a year or two after youll again have great fun with it once again.

That's sorta the thing. Sometimes when something gets stale, there's just really nothing left to do about it. DMC was stale in certain aspects that could still have been improved, they'd had really played all their cards yet, but they weren't really playing most of their cards at all by DMC4.

And it's not particularly about the game itself getting stale, it's the franchise, where it's not doing enough to entice and keep some people coming back for more. New features are nice, but they didn't do enough with those new features for the larger customer base.

 

[IncarnatedDemon]

Regarding DMC 4:
Wasn't it rushed - that is project didn't use 3 years on the game?

DMC 4 is definetly bad in many areas, but from a gameplay perspective i think it was decent.

Wudnt give it a 9/10 though. More like 8.5.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

The gameplay was definitely still good, it was just that...they didn't do enough with some of the new features they implemented.

 

[IncarnatedDemon]

The gameplay was definitely still good, it was just that...they didn't do enough with some of the new features they implemented.

Could you elaborate on that?

 

[TWOxACROSS]

I elaborated on it in my discussion, but they implemented things like Nero, and while he had some cool tricks up his sleeve, they didn't got much farther than him having those tricks. They could have given him more weapons so that he wasn't just running around with Blue Rose, Red Queen, and the Devil Bringer.

Pretty much, instead of shoehorning Dante into the second act, they could have found a way to implement a lot of the weapons for Nero. Even seeing how they used pull mechanics in DmC, they could have tried something similar back with Nero, too.

Or at least have fleshed out Nero with new weapons a little more, and bothered to do something more with changing into Dante, since pretty much none of the enemies he fought were really made for him. Everything seemed to have been coded with Nero in mind.

 

[IncarnatedDemon]

I elaborated on it in my discussion, but they implemented things like Nero, and while he had some cool tricks up his sleeve, they didn't got much farther than him having those tricks. They could have given him more weapons so that he wasn't just running around with Blue Rose, Red Queen, and the Devil Bringer.

Pretty much, instead of shoehorning Dante into the second act, they could have found a way to implement a lot of the weapons for Nero. Even seeing how they used pull mechanics in DmC, they could have tried something similar back with Nero, too.

Or at least have fleshed out Nero with new weapons a little more, and bothered to do something more with changing into Dante, since pretty much none of the enemies he fought were really made for him. Everything seemed to have been coded with Nero in mind.

To be honest i liked Nero because he didn't have alot of weapons. Looking at this video ...it's crazy.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Yeah, he's got some moves, but...it just feels like in pales in comparison to Dante who has all this stuff at his disposal. And unfortunately his Devil Bringer just seems like an excuse for a glorified Grab-to-Animated Kill mechanic a la God of war, but without any mid-animation input.

 

[Chancey289]

Regarding DMC 4:
Wasn't it rushed - that is project didn't use 3 years on the game?

DMC 4 is definetly bad in many areas, but from a gameplay perspective i think it was decent.

Wudnt give it a 9/10 though. More like 8.5.

DMC 4 wasn't rushed and that's still no excuse for delivering a crap game. Capcom done goofed, simple as that. If a chef decided to cook only one thing on my plate do you think I'd let him slide if he left everything else uncooked? I don't care if he said he was rushing, he still left everything else on my plate inedible. Screw that guy.

 

[Chancey289]

Yeah, he's got some moves, but...it just feels like in pales in comparison to Dante who has all this stuff at his disposal. And unfortunately his Devil Bringer just seems like an excuse for a glorified Grab-to-Animated Kill mechanic a la God of war, but without any mid-animation input.

All Nero brought to the table was really those grappling moves. He still shot a gun and swung a sword around. Also he looked exactly like Dante. The dude was basically pointless. DmC's demon pull and angel pull are really evolutions of Nero's arm and Vergil's teleportation all in one nice little package.

 

[VineBigBoss]

I've known a lot of people who love DMC but never feel the need to go back once they complete them. DMC is really fun, but to some consumers it's not something they continuously go back to - DMC is a somewhat fleeting experience to most who don't have a slightly competitive spirit that makes them want to "get better."

Then there's a fact that "getting stale" doesn't necessarily refer explicitly to the gameplay. I personally felt that DMC got the most stale in everything that wasn't combat - the story and character development was week old bread, and they latched on to tropes in the end. They didn't try. That's why they went with NT to help them make a game that had a focus on narrative presentation, and hey, while they were on a completely new version of DMC not part of the classics, might as well try out some new mechanics, too.

I understand your point here TWOxACROSS, but still it's a game that this kind of player could appreciate, although i agree with you that it needed to be more polished and appealing on other aspects. But i don't believe that this was Capcom's intention when they come up to NT, they clearly wanted to expand the game to broadier audiences taking the risk of losing the older fanbase and ****ing them off. The gameplay was good and don't needed to be changed so drastically by now, nor the world setting and the characters too, they only needed to work more on the story and depth of the characters (they did a good job on it with DMC3 Dante, but Vergil lacked the same depthness, or at least in the presentation of his story). They could have made remakes and things like this to fix things up and do a better job on the storytelling while revitalizing the older games (DMC1, for example) with gameplay concepts introduced in DMC3 and DMC4 without making DMC1 loses his unique design and gameplay, just more fast-paced and stylish.

And to be honest, Capcom only did this because it was a "minor franchise" (compared to SF or RE, for example), if this "stale" thing were really true, they would already did this to SF, for example. Because the fans of the franchise never asked for Capcom to reboot, and the old series was never given an end so this makes things even more confusing for everyone. There's much things that hints to us that they wanted to take a big risk to make other franchise be an top-seller, we can clearly see aspects from God of War in DmC, they wanted GoW audience too.

Nero isn't really a "full-fledged gameplay character" when they just took the base Dante and gave him two new features, one of which half the player base doesn't really use.

Nero is great, don't get me wrong, but they didn't do nearly enough to keep me excited about him. They made a new character, gave him a grab mechanic, and were just content with that - no extra weapons to expand on his skillset at all.

I agree with you in the first statement, but, actually i think it's good to have a character like Nero on the series with a more "dumbed down" gameplay for the casual player to feel better playing the game and doing "crazy things" by itself just pressing one button. Still, i agree too that he deserved to have more weapons and variety for the hardcore player not get bored by playing him. At first i hated to play with him, but after i've upgraded some skills the game became more fluid and it made possible to do more stylish combos besides the game still looking too casual with him. I think that if DMC4 was not rushed down it could be easily the best game on the franchise, welcoming newcomers to the series, casuals, hardcores and all people who likes good gameplay and cool characters. But... Capcom just being Capcom as usual. It's good to have a less deep (gameplay-wise) character on a deep game than an entire game with less depth.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

All Nero brought to the table was really those grappling moves. He still shot a gun and swung a sword around. Also he looked exactly like Dante. The dude was basically pointless. DmC's demon pull and angel pull are really evolutions of Nero's arm and Vergil's teleportation all in one nice little package.

That's what I mean. The Devil Bringer was cool, but they didn't do enough with it, and then Nero was still just a somewhat gimped Dante using a steel and gunpowder.

 

[IncarnatedDemon]

Yeah, he's got some moves, but...it just feels like in pales in comparison to Dante who has all this stuff at his disposal. And unfortunately his Devil Bringer just seems like an excuse for a glorified Grab-to-Animated Kill mechanic a la God of war, but without any mid-animation input.

I guess he could have had one more weapon.

 

[Chancey289]

That's what I mean. The Devil Bringer was cool, but they didn't do enough with it, and then Nero was still just a somewhat gimped Dante using a steel and gunpowder.

I always saw him as some pu$$y whipped Dante. Hell I thought he was Dante when I first saw him. They really didn't even try to make this new character distinct.

 

[Chancey289]

I guess he could have had one more weapon.

How about him not in the story at all? They did nothing with him and he was basically Dante. They could have maybe figured out a way to map that arm to Dante like maybe his demon power was corrupting him and looking to take control of his body or something I don't know. Just introducing a character like Nero ,which is uninteresting and boring at that, really just seems pointless. They should have done something like Onimusha 3 Demon Siege. Playing as Jean Reno and the samurai dude was actually a different playing experience. Jean Reno had this sweet demon whip and the other dude had 2 swords.

 

[DragonMaster2010]

DMC 4 wasn't rushed and that's still no excuse for delivering a crap game. Capcom done goofed, simple as that. If a chef decided to cook only one thing on my plate do you think I'd let him slide if he left everything else uncooked? I don't care if he said he was rushing, he still left everything else on my plate inedible. Screw that guy.

DMC4 was rushed. Both with story, and characters.

I understand your point here TWOxACROSS, but still it's a game that this kind of player could appreciate, although i agree with you that it needed to be more polished and appealing on other aspects. But i don't believe that this was Capcom's intention when they come up to NT, they clearly wanted to expand the game to broadier audiences taking the risk of losing the older fanbase and ******* them off.

I always assume they did DmC to show it off to Westerns so that they could play the originals and if fans asked, there'd be a DmC that's close to the originals in terms of gameplay and cinematic cutscenes.
The gameplay was good and don't needed to be changed so drastically by now, nor the world setting and the characters too, they only needed to work more on the story and depth of the characters (they did a good job on it with DMC3 Dante, but Vergil lacked the same depthness, or at least in the presentation of his story). They could have made remakes and things like this to fix things up and do a better job on the storytelling while revitalizing the older games (DMC1, for example) with gameplay concepts introduced in DMC3 and DMC4 without making DMC1 loses his unique design and gameplay, just more fast-paced and stylish.

But that will take a lot of resource and time to do. Plus you have to think of this from a sales perspective. There will be those die hard fans who'll get it, but there's the wider majority who will look past it and won't have time for it. Plus that'd be confusing with all these Devil May Cry's around. What would we call the remakes? DMC1.0, DMC2.0?

And to be honest, Capcom only did this because it was a "minor franchise" (compared to SF or RE, for example), if this "stale" thing were really true, they would already did this to SF, for example. Because the fans of the franchise never asked for Capcom to reboot, and the old series was never given an end so this makes things even more confusing for everyone. There's much things that hints to us that they wanted to take a big risk to make other franchise be an top-seller, we can clearly see aspects from God of War in DmC, they wanted GoW audience too.

If they really wanted the GoW audience, they'd have sex, a lot more blood and gore, and an even angrier protagonist.

SF is still a float, because it has a larger fanbase then DMC. Same as RE. DMC's fanbase is pretty small compared to the many millions of SF and RE. Though some people complained about SF and RE, the fanbase was too big and full of lovers for them to change anything. Meanwhile a few complained about DMC4, and because it's a small fanbase, it's a pretty big stain on the already small table.



I agree with you in the first statement, but, actually i think it's good to have a character like Nero on the series with a more "dumbed down" gameplay for the casual player to feel better playing the game and doing "crazy things" by itself just pressing one button. Still, i agree too that he deserved to have more weapons and variety for the hardcore player not get bored by playing him. At first i hated to play with him, but after i've upgraded some skills the game became more fluid and it made possible to do more stylish combos besides the game still looking too casual with him. I think that if DMC4 was not rushed down it could be easily the best game on the franchise, welcoming newcomers to the series, casuals, hardcores and all people who likes good gameplay and cool characters. But... Capcom just being Capcom as usual. It's good to have a less deep (gameplay-wise) character on a deep game than an entire game with less depth.

Why do you say it was good to have gameplay for casual players, when DmC tried to appeal to casual players as well to get them to play into the series?

I always saw him as some pu$$y whipped Dante. Hell I thought he was Dante when I first saw him. They really didn't even try to make this new character distinct.

He really was to me. Maybe if they shortened his hair, made his outfit not so Dante-like and made him a little tougher but the rebel who acted like he didn't give a damn about the one he loves, but will always protect her, then maybe I would've liked him bette--HOLD ON! There is a guy like that in the DMC fanchise!

My prayers are answered!

 

[IncarnatedDemon]

Kat was used to make Dante take right actions and to make him start caring abouit humans. At end Kat and Dante got as close as Nero and Kyrie.

So i am curious, why is Nero a pussy whipped Dante? I dont get it, would appreciate a nice explanation to that.

 

[DragonMaster2010]

Kat was used to make Dante take right actions and to make him start caring abouit humans. At end Kat and Dante got as close as Nero and Kyrie.

So i am curious, why is Nero a pussy whipped Dante? I dont get it, would appreciate a nice explanation to that.

Well Dante is always the dude who would never let a woman tie him down (even though Lady's pretty much his pimp when it comes too debt) and was a free man to do whoever he wanted, and say whatever he wanted, which made for a free and action-wanting protagonist.

Nero can't do the same thing.

Nero can't flirt with other women and can't flirt with other demon girls before a fight because he's already tied down to a girl. You'll never see Nero do what Dante did with Bael's trap of red and blue women. This vid pretty much explains this point.

With Nero, he's too focused on his missions and girlfriend to try and flirt with them even if he was playing around. But Dante doesn't have those restrictions. he can do it freely.

 

[IncarnatedDemon]

Pussy whipped is another term for someone being in love?

Ok, in that case DmC Dante became pussy whipped at end of DmC.

Wait for DmC 2, where all the strippers from the club wants to have sex with Dante all at once.

But Dante refuses because his lady Kat refuses.


Seriously guys?
Nero loved Kyrie. I would too. And before the game started Nero and Kyrie was close to or at same "stage" as Kat and Dante at end of DmC.

I agree Nero should have been his own character, but Capcom recently came up with stupid excuse that "He's actually Vergil's son" (or was that just a rumor/false information?)

Before that Nero was "a descendt of Sparda".


It's a pity though. I like Nero but i agree that he should not have been so similar to Dante.
But this goes to show you how companies operate. They don't change things, andif they do they try to keep those "similarities" to make you accept it. Nero: similar to Dante but a younger more "hip" with a headset on his head.


What i would changed by Nero (not because i dislike him):

Drop the white hair: Make him more of a independt character than one looking like Dante. NOTE; his hair style in DMC 4 and white hair loooks way better than Dante. But he shudnt be a Dante copy therefor drop the hair colour and possibly style as well.


Drop the accessory on his hand (looks kinda gay but thats my complaint, minor issue) and i think he has a ring on his fingers too. Its kinda bad with his bad ass look to have rings.

Drop the gun: Again hes emulating Dante. He should have his own type of missile weapon. Just not a handgun.

Drop the devil arm: and replace its gameplay feature with a grapple similar to DmC Dante
And instead make Nero a demon through hims using Yamato to much.
That is Nero finds out the more he uses the power of Yamato the more his body turns demonic.


RESULT:
A Nero that stands out. He is Nero - a independt character.
Not a Dante gimmick.



Personally i like Nero. I love his clothes and he looks bad ass just like Dante. Just that he has flaws (so does Dante). The reason why i like Nero is because he is way more independt as character than DmC Dante is. He is Nero , different from Dante.

 

[Zey]

He really was to me. Maybe if they shortened his hair, made his outfit not so Dante-like and made him a little tougher but the rebel who acted like he didn't give a damn about the one he loves, but will always protect her, then maybe I would've liked him bette--HOLD ON! There is a guy like that in the DMC fanchise!

My prayers are answered!

I call shenanigans.