rate the combat potential of DmC

[VineBigBoss]

Actually DmC does have the same effect, enemies don't die from trillion stabs and only from the final hit of it, the stinger launch. In fact, a lot of other moves have this property as well, which is why you end up getting slo mo finishers with various combos on the proper strikes. The other one I know for sure is Osiris Prop Shredder, that's come if you can get 2-3 enemies with varying levels of health in a shredder, they all seem to Sync die at the same time.

As for the moves having different properties, that's the whole basis of DmC's combat system, because every attack makes the enemy react a different way, moves have short launches, hover launches, high launches, short kos, long kos, every attack will impact the enemy differently and you are supposed to use to this create elaborate set ups if you see fit.

But there's something different to the chain system of DmC? The thing i asked before about channeling the moves and all. And yes, this was there from long in the series too: using prop or hightime to launch one enemy is different and leads to a different setup, using nevans launcher, a non-charged rising dragon or fully charged rising dragon too, or a JCed real impact and so on.

I don't know exactly when, but at some point this month DmC is comming to PS Plus, so i'll have a way to explore more the game.

 

[OppressedWriter]

But there's something different to the chain system of DmC? The thing i asked before about channeling the moves and all. And yes, this was there from long in the series too: using prop or hightime to launch one enemy is different and leads to a different setup, using nevans launcher, a non-charged rising dragon or fully charged rising dragon too, or a JCed real impact and so on.

I don't know exactly when, but at some point this month DmC is comming to PS Plus, so i'll have a way to explore more the game.

No one is arguing about anything, the whole point was if two systems have the same mechanics. My point was that DmC at the very least has equivalent depth to any other DMC game if not more and that this is in addition to having a much more elegant and logical control scheme. The problem is that so many people who argue this fact, is because they've developed so much muscle memory getting used to an extremely convoluted and unintuitive control scheme that even if a better, more elegant one like DmC's comes along they find it hard to accept. Essentially, its like years of mastering clunky controls has rewired some people's abilities to appreciate DmC's fluid ones.

Tl;dr, DmC's implementation of the various styles onto the controller is what DMC4 should have been if it wasn't rushed. The reason it worked in DMC3 so well was because that scheme was designed around picking one style. Their was time and effort put into balancing each one as its own moveset independent of the others. In DMC4, all they did was take the same scheme and make it on the fly without any rhyme or reason or improvement to the control scheme to compensate for all the excess.

 

[Stylish Nero]

But there isn't any moves missing, so I don't see why that's how it should have been. It's elegant the way it is, prop shredder is moved into osiris because it makes logical sense with that weapon, and it keeps the logical system of launchers and droppers on the same button. It's not a clusterfuck, where up is down and down is up and this is going to helmbreaker, and this is going to dodge but not when in this style, but in this style. Everything naturally flows from its logical precedent. The whole point is they kept all the flexiblity and made it way more logical. Making some sort of hybrid of a style button and the new system would be a terrible idea and end up being convoluted once again. The system has to be designed around it self.

Really?

Cause Eryx is quite lacking compared to the likes of Beowulf and Gilgamesh. I mean Rebellion (or Dante in general) is missing Crazy Dance/Dance Macabre (or Sword Pierce in DMC3) and the fact is Rebellion's moveset are stripped away and given to other weapons doesn't help the entire game's case when you need access 3 weapons to get the same effect of using 1 weapon in the old games although Round Trip works better with Aquila than Rebellion (although Round Trip was never a Rebellion move in DMC3 but a move in DMC1 Alastor and was added in DMC4 to well make it similar to DMC1). Plus who cares if Prop and Shredder works...no I mean looks cool with Osiris because it was scythe when you can give a scythe weapon any type of attack and if you're going to give Prop and Shredder to Osiris at least give Rebellion some new techniques to replace it so then that way if I can't chain Stinger or Trillion Stabs into Prop and Shredder at least give me a new move that I can chain it into with just Rebellion because one thing is in DMC3/4 you can chain any combo and attack of any weapon (DMC4 well better at it due to being able to use all you're weapons) so I don't see how DmC is better in this regard that it warrant stripping down the moveset. I mean when they removed Sword Pierce in DMC3 they gave it Round Trip so Rebellion's moveset won't be less than what it was before. It functioned quite similar to Sword Pierce.

However, its not just Sword Master its also Gunslinger missing Twosome Time, Honeycomb Shot, and Gun Stinger + Point Blank (although DMC4 was missing that too).

Plus its not a hybrid of the style system, its just adding inputs to a goddamn button so it can add more moves to it and be like a proxy Sword Master like Forward Forward + O performs a different attack like performing Stinger or Press Y+B at the same time. I mean you already say that they have the style system via the stances so I don't see how this would make it any worst (many other games uses this method). It would increase the amount of moves a weapon could do thus increasing combo potential rivaling if not surpassing DMC4.

There is a thing known as "Over streamlining". I do agree DMC4 could be a bit too much but my main problem with DMC4 is also the same problem I have with DmC and its basically decreasing your options and moveset so you can use everything so easily and at your disposal. Its reasons like that why we lost Wall Running, Twosome Time, Wild Stomp, Flipper, and more. A system that prefers player options and customization is ideal for this series. I like to have to use everything in a combo to create a long combo but when you're removing features/moves that were awesome and not even bother to try or find something new to replace it I'll be severely disappointed.

Like Berto said "you don't need to have all your tools available to you all at once" and you don't you only need access to as much tools as you can hold. When you make a sequel you build upon it and add new and creative stuff and fix the issues not just fix issues by removing stuff so its "easier".

I guess we're at odds.

I think a system where you can decide how much you can handle and not devs (meaning having 200 moves available if you want a clusterf*ck/challenge or 50 if you're pacing yourself) and truly have an infinite possibilities create combos how you want is the Ultimate Free Form system and NOT DmC.

I believe in possibility not accessibility.

If DmC is the conclusion of the Devil May Cry series......then that is one disappointing conclusion. A good progression...sure why not but the finale we want.....nope this series could do far better.


Although I do appreciate it for well trying a new formula of how to create a combat system that could be both accessible and deep but like DMC4 is lacking....its also lacking compared to DMC4.

There are MANY ways to streamline DMC's combat but still have the same effect and results of say DMC3/4 and better.

 

[Demi-fiend]

In DMC4, all they did was take the same scheme and make it on the fly without any rhyme or reason or improvement to the control scheme to compensate for all the excess.

ikr? Even I know how to put almost everything on one controller. There was just no excuse in this case.

 

[OppressedWriter]

I don't know exactly when, but at some point this month DmC is comming to PS Plus, so i'll have a way to explore more the game.

Here are the inputs to that combo minus the timing required between the various juggles and switches to make it work.

Rebellion 3 strikes
Stinger Trillion Stabs Cancel into Osiris Prop Shredder cancel into Invert Rainstorm evade cancel into Arbiter Drop.
Angel Boost (Sky Star Glide) inertia into Eryx Showdown.
Angel Dodge (Trick down)
Rebellion 2 strikes into Rebellion High Time
Ebony Ivory
Osiris Prop
Eryx Snake Eyes
Ebony Ivory
Angel Pull into angel lift cancel into reverse helmbreaker
Start charging ricoshot, Stinger into trillion stabs to finish:synced with level 3 just charge release Ricoshot.
Arbitrer Flush into Kabloeey Detonation.


X, X, X
Forward, Forward X, mash x, Left Trigger + B, Y, L1, Right Trigger + B.
press right on dpad to switch from axe to eryx.
Left Trigger + A, A,
Right Trigger + X (keep holding x, will keep charging without trigger)
Left Trigger + L1, L1
X, X, B, R1, Left Trigger + B, Forward, Forward + right trigger X (keep charging time to hit enemy before fall)
press right on dpad to switch from eryx to axe.
R1 into LT + R1, A(on contact to do do angel lift) reverse stick direction + X.
Start holding R1, forward, forward + X, mash x to finish right as level 3 charge is ready let go of R1,
Forward, Forward + Right Trigger + X
Neutral Press Y to detonate.

 

[OppressedWriter]

Really?
Its reasons like that why we lost Wall Running, Twosome Time, Wild Stomp, Flipper, and more. A system that prefers player options and customization is ideal for this series. I like to have to use everything in a combo to create a long combo but when you're removing features/moves that were awesome and not even bother to try or find something new to replace it I'll be severely disappointed.

First only one of those even have actual combo potential, twosometime, the rest were barely used redundant defensive moves.

- Flipper, one of the most pointless moves in the game, its literally a backflip recovery if you get hit, guess what DmC did, if you activate DT while falling from an aerial strike it will recover dante back to standing position. That's the definition of intuitive streamlining.

- Twosometime was replaced with invert rainstrom and ricoshot, this is just a preference thing and they could easily bring it back in place of inverse rainstorm.

- Wall running, could easily be brought back, their is such a thing as designing oyur game with solid mechanics so they are actually useful in the game you've made, maybe we'll see wall running in a sequel. The point is that is not something you just want to throw into th egame, oh look dante runs on walls, no this is something that has to be a core system of a new game and be heavily polished and integral to the combat.

- what is wild stomp?

- Whats the more, please elaborate, the whole point is all these moves and what they did exist in DmC and still allow the same level of combo creativity, some of these moves were just the exact same moves but with different weapons in hand or slightly different animations.

- you mean gun stinger, no problem can be brought back with forward forward shoot. wasn't brought back because it is a pointless move that has no unique function. It's just stinger properties with a shotgun in dante's hand instead of rebellion.

- Backslide, also pointless, since fireworks takes care of the function of spacing and hitting enemies around you.

Also, we get the revenant bomb, which is way more useful for setups during combos than either of these moves.​

The whole point of DmC was to remove pointless moves that didn't really do anything different that others moves did. Every move in DmC I've looked through the game code files does something different to the enemy they all have different physics properties, no moves are identical in how they affect enemies.

 

[VineBigBoss]

No one is arguing about anything, the whole point was if both systems have the same mechanics. My point was that DmC at the very least has equivalent depth to any other DMC game if not more and that this is in addition to having a much more elegant and logical control scheme. The problem is that so many people who argue this fact, is because they've developed so much muscle memory getting used to an extremely convoluted and unintuitive control scheme that even if a better, more elegant one like DmC's comes along they find it hard to accept. Essentially, its like years of mastering clunky controls has rewired some people's abilities to appreciate DmC's fluid ones.

Tl;dr, DmC's implementation of the various styles onto the controller is what DMC4 should have been if it wasn't rushed. The reason it worked in DMC3 so well was because that scheme was designed around picking one style. Their was time and effort put into balancing each one as its own moveset independent of the others. In DMC4, all they did was take the same scheme and make it on the fly without any rhyme or reason or improvement to the control scheme to compensate for all the excess.

But this do not bring any "problems" to the game itself, it do makes things more complicated for the player? Yes. But it's far, far from impossible to use it to the fullest extent, there's quite a handful of "pro" players out there to prove my point, they're not exactly special people, but for sure they are dedicated people.

I think that these things goes around too much things to be sure about the depth of each game. But i would say it's very hard for DmC to have more than DMC4 to work with in the combat (not only the combo potential) overall because of some things i've never seen being utilized in DmC:

- There's absolutely nothing comparable to RG in general in DmC, some could argue that "parry does the same fuction", but parrying the way DmC does is actually more akin to a Nero mechanic that even had unique animations on DMC4 (i can remember of at least 3 bosses with unique parry animations for Nero's buster); RG does not have only his moves but add a bunch of possibilities regarding cancels that would be impossible without it (demonstration, these bunch of million stabs cancelled into each other are only possible with guard-cancel, there's another possibilities with buffering usage too like some reversed moves). There's no substitute in DmC for releases/just-releases too. RG adds possibilities in terms of redirecting your inertia too, something i still have to see people developing on DmC.

- The command move system is not irrelevant as much as you try to prove that "it all can be done here too" in some gross overanalyzed generalizations; it's not like the mimic of one move with 2 others cause the same effects and lead to the same setups, like you did with your comparisons; it's easily arguable that what you've done with mustang is more akin to tricking up and enemy stepping in terms of setups. Think about the potential of these systems and what they offer to player: while one offers a more "elegant" and practical button scheme, the other offers more space to allocate new moves (whatever you're going to put there); using a raw generalization, it's about that, they're different systems with different potentials and one focuses on practical (and "more logical") ways to pull off your moves while the other tries to allocate more moves per button using commands.

- And the fact that the raw numbers sum up more for DMC4 than DmC.

I think that all this DmC vs DMC4 things boils down to something you've explained right there: we've grown used of this mechanics, button layouts and wanted to see them developed furthermore. But the same goes for those who want to see the DmC scheme developed furthermore, it's a matter of preference. It's hard to know for sure either DMC4 and DmC are equal or have substantially just a little difference between their combat potential (combat itself, not just combo potential), which is what i intuitively can graps about it. But i do find arrogance to think that DmC system is "what 4 should be all the time", it's just ignoring the clear differences and potential between them and melting all in one pasta of concepts with no distinction. Both these design directions have clear differences on their potentials as they are and lead to different results as we can clearly see in those games.

That's why i think NT would be better with another franchise developing all this they've done in DmC instead of removing one piece of variety in a franchise with a bunch of players that have grown used to the core mechanics and designs this game had from the start.

 

[Stylish Nero]

First only one of those even have actual combo potential, twosometime, the rest were barely used redundant defensive moves.

- Flipper, one of the most pointless moves in the game, its literally a backflip recovery if you get hit, guess what DmC did, if you activate DT while falling from an aerial strike it will recover dante back to standing position. That's the definition of intuitive streamlining.

- Twosometime was replaced with invert rainstrom and ricoshot, this is just a preference thing and they could easily bring it back in place of inverse rainstorm.

- Wall running, could easily be brought back, their is such a thing as designing oyur game with solid mechanics so they are actually useful in the game you've made, maybe we'll see wall running in a sequel. The point is that is not something you just want to throw into th egame, oh look dante runs on walls, no this is something that has to be a core system of a new game and be heavily polished and integral to the combat.

- what is wild stomp?

- Whats the more, please elaborate, the whole point is all these moves and what they did exist in DmC and still allow the same level of combo creativity, some of these moves were just the exact same moves but with different weapons in hand or slightly different animations.

- you mean gun stinger, no problem can be brought back with forward forward shoot. wasn't brought back because it is a pointless move that has no unique function. It's just stinger properties with a shotgun in dante's hand instead of rebellion.

- Backslide, also pointless, since fireworks takes care of the function of spacing and hitting enemies around you.

Also, we get the revenant bomb, which is way more useful for setups during combos than either of these moves.​

The whole point of DmC was to remove pointless moves that didn't really do anything different that others moves did. Every move in DmC I've looked through the game code files does something different to the enemy they all have different physics properties, no moves are identical in how they affect enemies.

Intuitive my f*cking ass.
So what if you're low on DT and not using the Super Costume how will you recover then? Flipper wasn't pointless it was a good way to recover from getting knockback so you can relentless keep the combo and attack going instead of fall to the ground and wait to get up. A better way to streamline it into the gameplay could just press the jump or one of the dodge buttons to recover like in Sengoku Basara. It was a simple maneuver that DmC could've put in there. It was a tool most pros obviously didn't use since they avoided getting hit but it was something good for the occasion.

Wild stomp was in DMC3 where you tap the shoot button like crazy on a downed opponent and Dante would unleash a barrage of shots before kicking them away and that wasn't a style skill it was a skill Ebony and Ivory possessed....removed from DMC4.

I could see you're point....perhaps I just don't like DmC's core. I guess Wall Running worked more with DMC3 since most stages were in tight areas versus DmC open world although DMC2 was very open spaced like DmC and it had Wall Running.

Plus GunStinger had more value in DMC3 due to Point Blank which was a follow up power shot that quickly delivered a powerful shot. I really like Revenant Bomb but like you said DmC could' easily have GunStinger + Point Blank......but it didn't. There is even value in GunStinger even without Point Blank. Say you just hit an opponent back with Stinger and wants to go in for another attack but he was sent back and if you repeat Stinger again the style system wont register it and you don't gain style points you can use GunStinger to get closer and land another attack and also Gunstinger doesn't have such a strong knockback like Stinger (although it does in DT) so its easy to get keep a chain going. Also, GunStinger also functions as a long range attack that can still hit an enemy without touching them like Stinger and also has limited movement range compared to Stinger which can go very far when upgraded. I guess this method of using "similar" attacks won't work in DmC's style system since its so lenient and not as strict as DMC4....then again that is also another problem I have with DmC's "core."

I even have use for Backslide. I use Backslide to target a specific enemy when I'm comboing an enemy in front of me and some dude behind me is trying to attack me and "Pop" I hit the sucker and could easily go back to comboing whereas Fireworks has a longer animation versus Backslide which is very quick and easy to cancel into and out of. I think the best way to improve Backslide would be to allow for the player to shot in any direction like how DMC2 you could perform Twosome Time with the Shotgun. I see Fireworks as good crowd control and Backslide as a quick and efficient individual control but I guess it wouldn't work in DmC's mechanics now here is a thing. I guess I just don't like DmC's mechanics since enemies won't attack you off screen and try sneak attacks like in DMC3 and in DMC4 with the Scarecrows and some enemies (would've preferred Backslider in DMC3 considering those cheap as Lust Hells allows hitting me from the back). Plus Gunstinger and Backslide were stylish and isn't that what Devil May Cry was mainly about. Having those moves there didn't hurt the game but added extra spice.

Ricoshot is a good CHARGE SHOT for E&I better than the old one (although I loved DMC3's charged shot) not a very good replacement for Twosome Time. It could be used in such way but the stylish ease of targeting multiple opponents and switching between targets at ease and I even used it once to gun juggle 2 enemies...man did that feel great. Also, I'm all for keeping Inverse Rainstorm like I said I value options and I'm the type who sees value in everything and anything if you're skilled and creative enough to use it. With Inverse Rainstorm its a great way to rise into the air and shoot nearby airborne opponents to either keep the chain going or you can knock an opponent into the air with a non rising High Time and use Inverse Rainstorm to rise to their level while shooting them to keep them in mid-air and cancel into an aerial combo. Could you easily get the same effect by just doing a rising launcher and keep the combo chain going...sure. But I thought Devil May Cry was about choice and being stylish how you want.

 

[OppressedWriter]

Intuitive my f*cking ass.
So what if you're low on DT and not using the Super Costume how will you recover then? Flipper wasn't pointless it was a good way to recover from getting knockback so you can relentless keep the combo and attack going instead of fall to the ground and wait to get up. A better way to streamline it into the gameplay could just press the jump or one of the dodge buttons to recover like in Sengoku Basara. It was a simple maneuver that DmC could've put in there. It was a tool most pros obviously didn't use since they avoided getting hit but it was something good for the occasion.

Wild stomp was in DMC3 where you tap the shoot button like crazy on a downed opponent and Dante would unleash a barrage of shots before kicking them away and that wasn't a style skill it was a skill Ebony and Ivory possessed....removed from DMC4.

I could see you're point....perhaps I just don't like DmC's core. I guess Wall Running worked more with DMC3 since most stages were in tight areas versus DmC open world although DMC2 was very open spaced like DmC and it had Wall Running.

Plus GunStinger had more value in DMC3 due to Point Blank which was a follow up power shot that quickly delivered a powerful shot. I really like Revenant Bomb but like you said DmC could' easily have GunStinger + Point Blank......but it didn't. There is even value in GunStinger even without Point Blank. Say you just hit an opponent back with Stinger and wants to go in for another attack but he was sent back and if you repeat Stinger again the style system wont register it and you don't gain style points you can use GunStinger to get closer and land another attack and also Gunstinger doesn't have such a strong knockback like Stinger (although it does in DT) so its easy to get keep a chain going. Also, GunStinger also functions as a long range attack that can still hit an enemy without touching them like Stinger and also has limited movement range compared to Stinger which can go very far when upgraded. I guess this method of using "similar" attacks won't work in DmC's style system since its so lenient and not as strict as DMC4....then again that is also another problem I have with DmC's "core."

I even have use for Backslide. I use Backslide to target a specific enemy when I'm comboing an enemy in front of me and some dude behind me is trying to attack me and "Pop" I hit the sucker and could easily go back to comboing whereas Fireworks has a longer animation versus Backslide which is very quick and easy to cancel into and out of. I think the best way to improve Backslide would be to allow for the player to shot in any direction like how DMC2 you could perform Twosome Time with the Shotgun. I see Fireworks as good crowd control and Backslide as a quick and efficient individual control but I guess it wouldn't work in DmC's mechanics now here is a thing. I guess I just don't like DmC's mechanics since enemies won't attack you off screen and try sneak attacks like in DMC3 and in DMC4 with the Scarecrows and some enemies (would've preferred Backslider in DMC3 considering those cheap as Lust Hells allows hitting me from the back). Plus Gunstinger and Backslide were stylish and isn't that what Devil May Cry was mainly about. Having those moves there didn't hurt the game but added extra spice.

Ricoshot is a good CHARGE SHOT for E&I better than the old one (although I loved DMC3's charged shot) not a very good replacement for Twosome Time. It could be used in such way but the stylish ease of targeting multiple opponents and switching between targets at ease and I even used it once to gun juggle 2 enemies...man did that feel great. Also, I'm all for keeping Inverse Rainstorm like I said I value options and I'm the type who sees value in everything and anything if you're skilled and creative enough to use it. With Inverse Rainstorm its a great way to rise into the air and shoot nearby airborne opponents to either keep the chain going or you can knock an opponent into the air with a non rising High Time and use Inverse Rainstorm to rise to their level while shooting them to keep them in mid-air and cancel into an aerial combo. Could you easily get the same effect by just doing a rising launcher and keep the combo chain going...sure. But I thought Devil May Cry was about choice and being stylish how you want.

I'm not saying more moves shouldn't be added, they will be in due time, the first part was actually streamlining the old convoluted system of redundant moves, and I still think flipper is a pointless move within DmC's moveset. I mean maybe it made sense for Nero who had like zero evasive manuevers while in the air. This is hardly the case with DmC's Dante, nd frankly, to be honest, you shouldn't be getting hit in DmC. It's very easy to get in the air, and you have so many more options to avoid being hit in DmC than you ever did before, angel dodge, parry, double jump, etc. Honestly, if you're still getting hit well and don't even have any DT left over to activate to recover, well that's your penalty, its no big deal though, you'll be back in the air in no time.

Also, enemies do in fact hit you off screen, dreamrunners and harpies are constantly hitting you off screen, and so are witches, so not sure where you go off saying that about the enemies.

 

[Caiden]

The problem is that DmC takes the essense of DMC combat to its logical conclusion, its the ultimate free flow system, unlike most other action games, you are expected to take all these moves and create a plethora of original stylish combos with them. The problem with wanting enemies like you seem to desire is that it would limit the possibilities of players to improvise with the free flow combat system. I mean the more explicit you make it for certain enemies to die from certain tactics the more you limit player creativity when it comes to fighting them. At some point, all high level players end up killing that enemy a certain tactical way, oh use this weapon, cuz it does most damage and stuns them into a corner, then just jc a litlte bit, open this.

The most baffling thing about this preference you have is that if this is really what you enjoy, then you shouldn't have an issue with color coordinated enemies, because it forces you to utilize certain tactics to beat them when dealing with mixed crowds. All the color coded thing does is make it apparent that this creature is going to parry every attack besides the one from this weapon. That is not any different from enemies in DMC4 being able to block or absorb more damage from certain weapons than others.

Wait are you judging my opinion? Are you trying to get me to just change my mind or something? Also the point I tried to make earlier is that it is not so limited that you are doing the same thing evertime. There is plenty of space to mix it up. Also color coded enemies do really give you many options. There are various ways to deal with enemies that guard from damage. But there is really only one way to deal with a color coded enemy. By hitting him with the same color.

I understand if your passionate about DmC but like I said most of this is my own opinion. You don't need to start judge the way I prefer to play my game.

 

[OppressedWriter]

- There's absolutely nothing comparable to RG in general in DmC, some could argue that "parry does the same fuction", but parrying the way DmC does is actually more akin to a Nero mechanic that even had unique animations on DMC4 (i can remember of at least 3 bosses with unique parry animations for Nero's buster); RG does not have only his moves but add a bunch of possibilities regarding cancels that would be impossible without it (demonstration, these bunch of million stabs cancelled into each other are only possible with guard-cancel, there's another possibilities with buffering usage too like some reversed moves). There's no substitute in DmC for releases/just-releases too. RG adds possibilities in terms of redirecting your inertia too, something i still have to see people developing on DmC.

What about gun charge cancelling, you can cancel trillion stabs into arbitrer flush by using gun charge cancelling, that is something totally unique. I still contend you're being far too nit picky and needlessly obtuse about not admitting whats right in front of you. The similarities and innovations with movesets are right there.

Attacks are much more powerful when released on exact timings and totally different properities and parry windows. Did you watch the combo video I did above, did you see the final part, what exactly do you think is going on when I teleport in one direction and than redirect to my initial direction using magnetism and inertia?

Honestly, every time I try to bring up actual hard facts, its like you guys just have HAVE TO BE BELIEVE that it can't be true, and just assume ohterwise, but this but this but this, trust me if their was a valid point I'd agree, but you guys always resort to the same thing. I can see what you're saying but yeah I don't know.

Link, please go here and tell me how this is not redirecting seriously.

 

[Stylish Nero]

I'm not saying more moves shouldn't be added, they will be in due time, the first part was actually streamlining the old convoluted system of redundant moves, and I still think flipper is a pointless move within DmC's moveset. And frankly, to be honest, you shouldn't be getting hit in DmC. It's very easy to get in the air, and you have so many more options to avoid being hit in DmC than you ever did before, angel dodge, parry, double jump, etc. Honestly, if you're still getting hit well and don't even have any DT left over to activate to recover, well that's your penalty, its no big deal though, you'll be back in the air in no time.

Also, enemies do in fact hit you off screen, dreamrunners and harpies are constantly hitting you off screen, and so are witches, so not sure where you go off saying that about the enemies.

Even in games where avoiding is quite easy its they still have the option for aerial recovery because well people still get hit. Plus what if I don't want to waste my DT on something so menial plus using DT in DmC sends enemies in the air an what if I didn't want to send them up in the air just yet and using DT recovery has a bit longer recovery time due to the process of the DT versus a regular aerial recovery/flipper. Oh I mean the more land based enemies plus Backslide isn't very useful against aerial enemies like Harpies and Witches are long ranged opponents. Sorry its been a while since I played DmC. Plus I was talking about general enemies like the Stygians and their many variants.

Plus I don't see much of a difference in DMC4 you had the Dash, Dodge Roll, Sky Star, Double Jump, Enemy Step, and Guarding as well as Release as ways to prevent getting hit although its easier to perform evasive manuevers in DmC.

I mean that is kind of mean don't you think. "Oh you got hit so you deserve to fall down NO instant recovery for you!" That is something I would expect from the hardcore and "unintuitive" DMC4 not something streamlined to be more accessible. Plus DmC isn't a easy game so you're bound to get knocked down or hit not all players are pros like yourself. I occasionally get hit once a while on harder difficulties (maybe not as much as the originals).

Also, as for waiting for a sequel for them to add more moves so it can equal the games before.....I call bullsh*t. Why didn't they include it before streamlining or not? I mean Bayonetta the first in its series has a pretty streamlined and accessible combat system and its loaded with a plethora of moves, mechanics, features, weapons, and etc whether a lot of it are "similar" or uses the same animations there are still plenty of unique attacks and moves (or just attacks and animations in general) that are more than DmC's. Even DMC3 that reinvented the series mechanics added more moves than took away and drastically altered plenty of things from DMC2 to make them function better.

DmC2 better not just be "what DmC could've been" but actually what DmC2 should be if DmC was better......but I doubt we'll see a DmC2 or Capcom will carry on with the Stance System but something of equal effect (hopefully better).

I guess that was I was underwhelmed by DmC I wanted the fifth Devil May Cry not a streamlined and accessible or better word "completed" version of DMC4 was supposed to be.

Its like what Berto said this series is taking baby steps.

 

[VineBigBoss]

I think i've seen Brea using gun charge canceling in the demo, if it works the same way RG-cancel, then we have our substitute there. I too could say the exactly same thing about not admiting that you can put more moves when you have command moves along your inputs and you make it a core mechanic to your game, but that's how these discussions are going. That's why these neverending arguing occurs since i've joined these forums, and i'm pretty sure they'll never end since rethoric is always present here: sometimes it comes in the form of gross oversimplifications like: "B-b-b-but this is exactly this when i do this too" , "This is useless", ignoring the little nuances these games have for some reason and considering them for other reasons or just from someone just not knowing something (like i did right now with the gun-cancelling, i don't even know exactly how it works or if it's reliable).

Just to point out these differences and nuances in the comparison you made right now: the parry move gives you i-frames just like the just-release? It works the same way and have same usage in the combat? Both mechanics have their own properties and usages (and i've never noticed difference in properties or damage going on when i parried bosses in this game, will try to see them now), but still you make some work around to seem like they are a match. I mean, this i like saying what we just agreed back them: that the launchers have different properties, leads to different setups (in both games) even if in a simplification they lead to the same thing that is launching and juggling the monsters.

I've never said you lied, bro. I'm just saying that there's tons of data to really analyse and get to the bottom of this question if we really want to, but what really happens are fruitless arguing. I really think we are better playing these games and let the players and their works tell how much these games really can give us, there's people out there still playing and doing stuff with DMC4 and DmC was released just last year and is in the same situation. I do think that this topic gets very convoluted to phrase things in a forum with this kind of mentality going on.

 

[Meier]

Glad to see that you found work. Especially in this economy.

Speaking of life being unfair, I'm glad DmC exists to "question" it, as you put it.

And it's not capitalism. It's corporatism (otherwise known as "corporate fascism") using Keynesian economic models.

Alright I don't mean to take away from a healthy conversation here on topic about the combat in DmC and how it resonates with the original series, but I have to respond to this.

First of all, Keynesian economics has hardly been implemented in America. In fact supply side economics has dominated the economy since 1980. This is also known as Reaganomics. The idea is to protect the already wealthy class through tax deductions and incentives to the wealthy in order to allow the "free market" to trickle down its earnings onto its employees and future employees. This has been proven false by the last 30 years of practice. What we have instead is the largest wealth gap in American history with corporate profits at historical highs while unemployment remains.

The greater fight is how to resolve the disparity. What Republicans such as Ron Paul (blatant racist btw) and his son (bigger idiot btw) have proposed is to:
1) give the unemployed incentive by taking away benefits
2) allowing legal discrimination from employers and
3) cut government spending.

1) You can't simply end edd benefits and expect an insurgence in employment. What we have is a massive problem where companies are offering lower wages and fewer jobs (by piling more work on the existing workers) all the while paying out their execs and investors hand over fist. Again, record company profits.
What you need instead to combat that problem is to continue to extend benefits while people are looking for work so they can continue to contribute to the economy. Also to increase the minimum wage so that companies have to level their stepping stones some and not take home 300 times the amount of the average worker at the top level.

2) Obviously allowing legal discrimination in the workforce leads to an underclass of citizens. It was tried in America for most of its history and has only been overturned after a long hard battle. What the Paul's propose is a return to a segregated america. After all those people are backed by neo-nazis like stormfront.org and the kkk. When working towards a better society you need to keep everyone up, and not prop one group up over the other. Capitalism by definition is to advance at the suffering of others. That is why I blame the system in general. Capitalism can work when bound by proper rules (ie regulations) but we all know that libertarians and republicans despise that idea.

3) Cutting government spending is exactly why the recession has been extended so long. We are at an all time low when it comes to public sector employment. Go to a court or DMV, or any public work place and you will see signs about how furloughs and spending cuts have resulted in fewer workers to process you. Jobs are jobs. The republicans and right wing america are hell bent on eliminating these workers to increase demand in the private job force. Increased demand in the private sector leads to lower wages through that competition. Its a downward spiral and increases the wealth gap.

Edit:
Tying back into the spirit of DmC, you need to take a closer look at the prince and pauper relationship between Vergil and Dante. Vergil had obvious Nazism tendencies in him as evidenced by his thought to rule the world through might (although he thinks it is benevolent might). Dante on the other hand knows the plight of the desperate and underrepresented people. Dante chooses democracy over a rule of thumb. The two do topple someone who is subversively controlling the world through debt and dependency. The dependency though isn't through a Keynesian model though. It is through a manipulative structure of placing too much power in the private sector.
The reason the banks had to be bailed out was because too much money was placed under private hands and it wound up controlling all interests in our society. Letting the banks fail under our system would have resulted in a cascading avalanche of all jobs and currency saved. Making the current money meaningless would have obviously resulted in massive riots. After all no one works for free without retaliation eventually. So we had to keep our current crappy system going for the time being while we scale it back through various initiatives. You are right when you said it will be a long process to reverse and that no one wants to be reminded of that. DmC does point out how bad we have it now. I think DmC understates how bad we have it honestly, but please do not turn toward opportunists like the "libertarian" party.

 

[VineBigBoss]

Alright I don't mean to take away from a healthy conversation here on topic about the combat in DmC and how it resonates with the original series, but I have to respond to this.

First of all, Keynesian economics has hardly been implemented in America. In fact supply side economics has dominated the economy since 1980. This is also known as Reaganomics. The idea is to protect the already wealthy class through tax deductions and incentives to the wealthy in order to allow the "free market" to trickle down its earnings onto its employees and future employees. This has been proven false by the last 30 years of practice. What we have instead is the largest wealth gap in American history with corporate profits at historical highs while unemployment remains.

The greater fight is how to resolve the disparity. What Republicans such as Ron Paul (blatant racist btw) and his son (bigger idiot btw) have proposed is to:
1) give the unemployed incentive by taking away benefits
2) allowing legal discrimination from employers and
3) cut government spending.

1) You can't simply end edd benefits and expect an insurgence in employment. What we have is a massive problem where companies are offering lower wages and fewer jobs (by piling more work on the existing workers) all the while paying out their execs and investors hand over fist. Again, record company profits.
What you need instead to combat that problem is to continue to extend benefits while people are looking for work so they can continue to contribute to the economy. Also to increase the minimum wage so that companies have to level their stepping stones some and not take home 300 times the amount of the average worker at the top level.

2) Obviously allowing legal discrimination in the workforce leads to an underclass of citizens. It was tried in America for most of its history and has only been overturned after a long hard battle. What the Paul's propose is a return to a segregated america. After all those people are backed by neo-nazis like stormfront.org and the kkk. When working towards a better society you need to keep everyone up, and not prop one group up over the other. Capitalism by definition is to advance at the suffering of others. That is why I blame the system in general. Capitalism can work when bound by proper rules (ie regulations) but we all know that libertarians and republicans despise that idea.

3) Cutting government spending is exactly why the recession has been extended so long. We are at an all time low when it comes to public sector employment. Go to a court or DMV, or any public work place and you will see signs about how furloughs and spending cuts have resulted in fewer workers to process you. Jobs are jobs. The republicans and right wing america are hell bent on eliminating these workers to increase demand in the private job force. Increased demand in the private sector leads to lower wages through that competition. Its a downward spiral and increases the wealth gap.

Edit:
Tying back into the spirit of DmC, you need to take a closer look at the prince and pauper relationship between Vergil and Dante. Vergil had obvious Nazism tendencies in him as evidenced by his thought to rule the world through might (although he thinks it is benevolent might). Dante on the other hand knows the plight of the desperate and underrepresented people. Dante chooses democracy over a rule of thumb. The two do topple someone who is subversively controlling the world through debt and dependency. The dependency though isn't through a Keynesian model though. It is through a manipulative structure of placing too much power in the private sector.
The reason the banks had to be bailed out was because too much money was placed under private hands and it wound up controlling all interests in our society. Letting the banks fail under our system would have resulted in a cascading avalanche of all jobs and currency saved. Making the current money meaningless would have obviously resulted in massive riots. After all no one works for free without retaliation eventually. So we had to keep our current crappy system going for the time being while we scale it back through various initiatives. You are right when you said it will be a long process to reverse and that no one wants to be reminded of that. DmC does point out how bad we have it now. I think DmC understates how bad we have it honestly, but please do not turn toward opportunists like the "libertarian" party.

I do live in a very regulated country, kinda flirting with socialism (our leaders do are socialists/comunists) and it's not as good as you might think. It's too late here in Brazil to make a good post about that, but later i can report how ****ty things are here because we don't have economical freedom. We do have a lot of "public policies for the minoritys and underrepresented people", and a lot of "security" for the workers that ends expelling a lot of the private initiative and kills our potential to make new jobs and just serves to protect the "top" of the private enterprises while killing minor enterprises and suffocating our own ability to do business with taxes and bureaucracy, which makes us unable to stay competitive against the whole world. Governement is the actual vilain here.

 

[Meier]

I do live in a very regulated country, kinda flirting with socialism (our leaders do are socialists/comunists) and it's not as good as you might think. It's too late here in Brazil to make a good post about that, but later i can report how ****ty things are here because we don't have economical freedom. We do have a lot of "public policies for the minoritys and underrepresented people", and a lot of "security" for the workers that ends expelling a lot of the private initiative and kills our potential to make new jobs and just serves to protect the "top" of the private enterprises while killing minor enterprises and suffocating our own ability to do business with taxes and bureaucracy, which makes us unable to stay competitive against the whole world. Governement is the actual vilain here.

That's different. The united states is a world leader in a global economy. The economics of the US shape the rest of the world regardless of their own policies at home. The reason is the US has a gigantic military and world presence to obtain any goods and services it wants. The change has to come from the top in conjunction with other super powers. While there may be corruption in Brazil, that is not to say that corruption can't be prevented when switching to a more left wing model in USA.

It all entirely depends on the regulations set forth. What we have in the US is a right wing faction that entirely pursues de-regulation in the face of an economic disaster caused by no regulation. They at all costs try to repeal the Dodd-Frank bill which impose more laws on the banks to keep them from gambling with other people's earnings without repercussion. Dodd-Frank hardly goes far enough, but it is still a primary target from these facists at Fox business news.

Again back to DmC. The enemy is clear. They use propaganda machines like Fox news to plague people with ideas that anything social is harmful. Bob Barabas or Bill O'Reilly will get his viewers to concentrate on superstition and paranoia whilst proclaiming to be doing "God's work." Supply side economics is not logically sound or proven in practicality. They are bullshit artists bating people in perpetuation of being ripped off.

 

[Caiden]

Nice to see that this thread has completely derailed. Although it was kind of running in circles anyway.

 

[Stylish Nero]

Nice to see that this thread has completely derailed. Although it was kind of running in circles anyway.

This is nothing.

I've seen worst.

 

[ef9dante_oSsshea]

How about we all agree that both games are awesome in there own way to some more so dmc4 and others DmC because otherwise this discussion will go on forever lol

 

[Caiden]

How about we all agree that both games are awesome in there own way to some more so dmc4 and others DmC because otherwise this discussion will go on forever lol

I was getting ready to say the same. I hate when it reaches the point where everyone seems to be dancing in circles.