New Dante: How is he an A-hole?

[Meg]

ZeroLove, it's obvious this topic is hitting close to home with you. Since I have a tendency to push you the wrong way, I'll be leaving before anything dramatic starts up. *bows out of thread*

 

[DragonMaster2010]

ZeroLove, if this is really deep for you, and you really want to talk about this, just PM me so we can talk.

 

[chocolateghost79]

I think a small misinterpretation is present in this thread.
Ninja Theory isn't trying to make new Dante flat out realistic.
They are trying to make him realistic within his universe. A universe where demons control everything.
So yeah Dante is going to be angry when he is branded as a terrorist by the media, or if he sees people walking down the street drinking poison that just makes them oblivious to the demon control. Ninja Theory just wants to make the player feel the emotions that Dante feels and understand why he feels the way he does.

 

[berto]

I'm fuzzy on the point of this. There are no realistic characters in fiction. There are portrayal of real people, there are characters based on real life, there are characters who are completly made up, and there are characters that are a combination of two or more of those. Some are more real, some are more fantastical. But it's not a bad thing, on ether aspect, all great characters in fiction are figments of the imagination from Dante to Hamlet. The nature of their realism doesn't change their appeal or impact.

The issue was if the dude is a a'hole or not, which I guess we are all sorta pointing at 'yes' with some of us defending it.

I wouldn't use the word a$$#ole, though. I think Dante 2.0 as more juvenile than a$$#ole. He doesn't seem angry, so far, or what I would call 'genuenly' malicious, but his additude strikes me more as rebelious agression, a sorta... childish 'I want attention' personality?

Dante 1.0 was writen as a bit of prancster himself, but it was more of an endearing attribute, a sorta 'oh, you' way to him. 1.2 was just a piece of wood so let's skip him. 1.3 wasn't what I'd call an a$$#ole ether, he was rather goofball wih a side of 'I don't care about what is good or bad, I'm in it for me!' (translation: I need to do the right thing and save the world without anyone realizing I care so much about people and I brush my teeth every day like a good boy). A rather different type of juvenile. Dante 1.4 is kinda like version 1.3 but with less at stake.

What is it you don't find realistic?
Etc do to lenght

Dude, I'm not going forward with this. Let's leave it at 'dissagree' and move on.

 

[Sieghart]

They are trying to make him realistic within his universe. A universe where demons control everything.

I think we got our answer into this whole realistic thing

 

[chocolateghost79]

I think we got our answer into this whole realistic thing

Thanks for agreeing.

 

[Tiran]

I don't think New Dante is realistic at all. Old Dante is a straight up caricature. Well at least in DMC3 & 4. You can argue he is his most realistic in the first game. But that's besides the point. *ahem*

New Dante is incredibly unrealistic. He comes of more as this contrived sense of what ignorant people find cool. Getting smashed and bringing home women every night, throwing "f-yous" everywhere, living in a trailer and generally just not giving a crap despite only being like, what, 17? Yeah. Yeah, that's realistic. New Dante honestly comes off as this kind of idealized version of what an idiot would consider a cool lifestyle. Idealized is not realistic.

I have to disagree with your assessment of that lifestyle being unrealistic. When a man is very young all he thinks about is sex, and fun nights out. That's just how many teens/ young men work. The coming of age journey we go through allows us to grow beyond these base desires into something greater (often into the arms of true love and happiness). I know plenty of people who live, or have lived, similar lifestyles. Although, it isn't a healthy one to live and it is extreme and slightly deplorable to behave that way and I think that's the point the story is trying to make.

If, in fact, the story is about him becoming a better, more complete, person and a hero, then this behavior we've been seeing is actually being suggested by the storyteller as the antithesis of what Dante , the model of a modern young urban man coming of age in a harsh world, should be. The fact that we find this behavior extreme and often unlikable is actually better for the arc the protagonist will go through.

 

[ZeroLove]

I didn't ask how Dante would react as a human. But I guess it is hard to view things form his perspective when you're not living it yourself. Either way, I can see why Dante acts and reacts the way he does, considering his past and who he is. He's gone through alot of sh*t and he still does. For one in his position, I think NT has done a good job to make him as realistic as possible.

But yeah, he's an asshole. He's a douchebag. He's a smartass. And I think he is being those things in a more realistic way than Old Dante. Old Dante are those things as well, but the way Capcom has depicted him in those games don't feel realistic. It is, as Meg stated, campy and exaggerated. Old Dante is like a cartoon character compared to the new Dante. Old Dante is an animé stereotype.

New Dante is not 100% realistic, he is idealized, a personification of a youth who has just been through all the sh*t the world could throw at him. I get that. But compared to the old Dante, new Dante reacts and feels alot more realistic and true. Many of the non-supernatural stuff Dante does in the footage we have seen are things I have seen others do in real life, hence why I think he appears realistic. Hope that makes sense.

I think a small misinterpretation is present in this thread.
Ninja Theory isn't trying to make new Dante flat out realistic.
They are trying to make him realistic within his universe. A universe where demons control everything.
So yeah Dante is going to be angry when he is branded as a terrorist by the media, or if he sees people walking down the street drinking poison that just makes them oblivious to the demon control. Ninja Theory just wants to make the player feel the emotions that Dante feels and understand why he feels the way he does.

YES!!! Exactly this! Glad that someone at least got what I meant.
Is it because my point simply doesn't come across? Am I bad at explaining things?

 

[chocolateghost79]

I have to disagree with your assessment of that lifestyle being unrealistic. When a man is very young all he thinks about is sex, and fun nights out. That's just how many teens/ young men work. The coming of age journey we go through allows us to grow beyond these base desires into something greater (often into the arms of true love and happiness). I know plenty of people who live, or have lived, similar lifestyles. Although, it isn't a healthy one to live and it is extreme and slightly deplorable to behave that way and I think that's the point the story is trying to make.

If, in fact, the story is about him becoming a better, more complete, person and a hero, then this behavior we've been seeing is actually being suggested by the storyteller as the antithesis of what Dante , the model of a modern young urban man coming of age in a harsh world, should be. The fact that we find this behavior extreme and often unlikable is actually better for the arc the protagonist will go through.

Well put Tiran. Basically by making Dante bad in the beginning his character development becomes more obvious and relevant to his character.

 

[majeh116]

I don't think New Dante is realistic at all. Old Dante is a straight up caricature. Well at least in DMC3 & 4. You can argue he is his most realistic in the first game. But that's besides the point. *ahem*

New Dante is incredibly unrealistic. He comes of more as this contrived sense of what ignorant people find cool. Getting smashed and bringing home women every night, throwing "f-yous" everywhere, living in a trailer and generally just not giving a crap despite only being like, what, 17? Yeah. Yeah, that's realistic. New Dante honestly comes off as this kind of idealized version of what an idiot would consider a cool lifestyle. Idealized is not realistic.

(This is just going off of what I have read in interview's I'm not saying it justify's anything) I don't think New Dante is supposed to be considered cool initially I think initially he is supposed to be considered an asshole and honestly a bit of a loser with no purpose. I think the big theme of the game is going to be him learning his place and his role in life and he will end the game as a total badass and someone who is "cool" though thats just how I have taken interviews discussing his character and the like

 

[berto]

I have to disagree with your assessment of that lifestyle being unrealistic. When a man is very young all he thinks about is sex, and fun nights out.

Yep, that'd be us. Too bad most of us can't afford it when we live on our own.

That's just how many teens/ young men work. The coming of age journey we go through allows us to grow beyond these base desires into something greater (often into the arms of true love and happiness). I know plenty of people who live, or have lived, similar lifestyles. Although, it isn't a healthy one to live and it is extreme and slightly deplorable to behave that way and I think that's the point the story is trying to make.

And a fine way to go to compliment the other themes in the game. Very contrasting, maybe a bit obvious, but not a terrible concept.

If, in fact, the story is about him becoming a better, more complete, person and a hero, then this behavior we've been seeing is actually being suggested by the storyteller as the antithesis of what Dante , the model of a modern young urban man coming of age in a harsh world, should be. The fact that we find this behavior extreme and often unlikable is actually better for the arc the protagonist will go through.

Yes, it is an interesting take on Dante, and the way he is set up isn't even uncommon compaired to how others live in this country, and maybe others. Perhaps England as well.

Just the same, I'd like to point out that Dante isn't what I would call a hyper realistic character, or even regular realisic. The image they created of him is still an idelized persona.

Actually, he seems like a rather commen architype this day and age.

 

[Tiran]

Yep, that'd be us. Too bad most of us can't afford it when we live on our own.


And a fine way to go to compliment the other themes in the game. Very contrasting, maybe a bit obvious, but not a terrible concept.


Yes, it is an interesting take on Dante, and the way he is set up isn't even uncommon compaired to how others live in this country, and maybe others. Perhaps England as well.

Just the same, I'd like to point out that Dante isn't what I would call a hyper realistic character, or even regular realisic. The image they created of him is still an idelized persona.

Fictional accounts are always idealized they must be to fit an idea/ ideal. They have to be molded a certain way to get a specific set of goals and points across. By nature, this Dante as a character must carry the weight of the themes this story will present. It's heavy, I know, but it serves to give greater weight to the journey.

 

[berto]

Fictional accounts are always idealized they must be to fit an idea/ ideal. They have to be molded a certain way to get a specific set of goals and points across. By nature, this Dante as a character must carry the weight of the themes this story will present. It's heavy, I know, but it serves to give greater weight to the journey.

Well, that's not entirely true.

Characters are idelized for the same reason poleticians only present themselfs in apossitive light. Appeal.

We idelized characters to draw appeal above all else. That's why most female game characters have idealize, or even exagerated, proportions. Appeal is more important than driving a point. If Dante wasn't cool or appealing none of this would matter.

 

[Tiran]

Well, that's not entirely true.

Characters are idelized for the same reason poleticians only present themselfs in apossitive light. Appeal.

We idelized characters to draw appeal above all else. That's why most female game characters have idealize, or even exagerated, proportions. Appeal is more important than driving a point. If Dante wasn't cool or appealing none of this would matter.

Yes, but the ideal he's molded into IS that of the uncaring lowlife playboy. Not all Ideals promoted by others are positive. Look at rappers.

 

[DragonMaster2010]

Yep, that'd be us. Too bad most of us can't afford it when we live on our own.


And a fine way to go to compliment the other themes in the game. Very contrasting, maybe a bit obvious, but not a terrible concept.


Yes, it is an interesting take on Dante, and the way he is set up isn't even uncommon compaired to how others live in this country, and maybe others. Perhaps England as well.

Just the same, I'd like to point out that Dante isn't what I would call a hyper realistic character, or even regular realisic. The image they created of him is still an idelized persona.

Actually, he seems like a rather commen architype this day and age.

I just call him "Fonzte."^_^

 

[EllDawn]

I don't think New Dante is realistic at all. Old Dante is a straight up caricature. Well at least in DMC3 & 4. You can argue he is his most realistic in the first game. But that's besides the point. *ahem*

New Dante is incredibly unrealistic. He comes of more as this contrived sense of what ignorant people find cool. Getting smashed and bringing home women every night, throwing "f-yous" everywhere, living in a trailer and generally just not giving a crap despite only being like, what, 17? Yeah. Yeah, that's realistic. New Dante honestly comes off as this kind of idealized version of what an idiot would consider a cool lifestyle. Idealized is not realistic.

I haven't read all the posts, yet, but I'm going to reply to this.

I have known girls that fit that description. I was friends with one, once. She was angry at everything, swore almost all the time, did drugs, drank as often as she could, and slept with whatever guy or girl she could. That was in high school. Last I heard, not much had changed. Does that make her unrealistic? Even though she is a real person. She was a coward, and didn't have to deal with as much hell as this Dante, but that didn't change what she had become. She had friends that were the same way, some were even worse.

Saying that people like that are unrealistic is, as others have said, ignorance. And I didn't even grow up in a city. These girls were from small towns. So, remember, there are people just like him in the world. He's likely to change toward the end of the game since the story is about his progression.

Don't base his whole character on what you've seen, because that's not how he's going to be in the end.

 

[berto]

Yes, but the ideal he's molded into IS that of the uncaring lowlife playboy. Not all Ideals promoted by others are positive. Look at rappers.

And people worship them, I agree. But they certanly don't make it look like it's a bad thing.

It is the appeal of the lifestyle, the additude, the money and the women. You think they added that shot of Dante with all those naked women for the sake of character progression? It's the same reason rapers have scantly dressed dancers on their videos. Presenting an image with appeal to draw in an audience. It's certainly not for realism or to show how much the character is hurting on the inside. It's to make him look 'cool' to a certain audience, not to display the wrongs of his lifestyle.

I haven't read all the posts, yet, but I'm going to reply to this.

I have known girls that fit that description. I was friends with one, once. She was angry at everything, swore almost all the time, did drugs, drank as often as she could, and slept with whatever guy or girl she could. That was in high school. Last I heard, not much had changed. Does that make her unrealistic? Even though she is a real person. She was a coward, and didn't have to deal with as much hell as this Dante, but that didn't change what she had become. She had friends that were the same way, some were even worse.

Saying that people like that are unrealistic is, as others have said, ignorance. And I didn't even grow up in a city. These girls were from small towns. So, remember, there are people just like him in the world. He's likely to change toward the end of the game since the story is about his progression.

I've know people like that, as well.

The thing is, you didn't discrive Dante just now. We aren't saying he's unrealistic because curses or because he sleeps around and drinks or what not. He's unrealistic because those aspects of his life are idealized and made to seem cool.

The idea is that he will evolve and grow, right? Well, as you pointed out people don't really change that much. In fiction their journey forces them to grow and change. That doesn't happen in real life. Most people are set in their ways.

Edit:

Don't base his whole character on what you've seen, because that's not how he's going to be in the end.

Ok, could people please stop saying that. If we are not allowed to talk about it just based on what we know conversations are going to be cut short on all fronts.

You can't say you like him until you've played the game.
You can't say you hate him until you've played the game.
Don't form opinions without all the facts.

Why not? If we can't express our opinions now then what is the point of a forum? We are forming opinions with all the available facts that we can and we are allowed to change our opinions as more facts are made available.

So, please, pretty please, with sugar on top, stop saying that people are not allowed to pressent opinions until release.

 

[Paexie]

I'd like to point out that the story will have a progressive take on Dante, meaning that the whole point of the story is that Dante will eventually transform as the game progresses in appearance and personality.

I know the issue is about how we see it as it is right now but I thought it was important to remember that.

Yes, all of this. What's important here is how will that happen.

I think a small misinterpretation is present in this thread.
Ninja Theory isn't trying to make new Dante flat out realistic.
They are trying to make him realistic within his universe. A universe where demons control everything.
So yeah Dante is going to be angry when he is branded as a terrorist by the media, or if he sees people walking down the street drinking poison that just makes them oblivious to the demon control. Ninja Theory just wants to make the player feel the emotions that Dante feels and understand why he feels the way he does.

The whole game is a parody of our society, after all. It's exaggerated in a very visceral way and kind of fun and over the top if you ask me.

(This is just going off of what I have read in interview's I'm not saying it justifies anything) I don't think New Dante is supposed to be considered cool initially I think initially he is supposed to be considered an asshole and honestly a bit of a loser with no purpose. I think the big theme of the game is going to be him learning his place and his role in life and he will end the game as a total badass and someone who is "cool" though that's just how I have taken interviews discussing his character and the like

He's definitely a very unpolished guy and you can even see that in the way he moves in combat. In the GT Invisible Walls interview, doesn't that guy say that Vergil starts out telling him that he's destined for more? Dante is pretty much a wandering, violent dude with no purpose in the beginning of this story.

Dude, I'm Mexican, I know how despicable people can get, belive you me. Still doesn't mean Dante is realistic.

I'm Puerto Rican. I know those feels. This Dante is just a sad jerk compared to what real people do, unintentionally or not.

 

[nightrunner_ks]

I don't think New Dante is realistic at all. Old Dante is a straight up caricature. Well at least in DMC3 & 4. You can argue he is his most realistic in the first game. But that's besides the point. *ahem*

New Dante is incredibly unrealistic. He comes of more as this contrived sense of what ignorant people find cool. Getting smashed and bringing home women every night, throwing "f-yous" everywhere, living in a trailer and generally just not giving a crap despite only being like, what, 17? Yeah. Yeah, that's realistic. New Dante honestly comes off as this kind of idealized version of what an idiot would consider a cool lifestyle. Idealized is not realistic.

"f-yous everywhere?" Sorry but that's a huge exaggeration.

 

[berto]

I'm Puerto Rican. I know those feels. This Dante is just a sad jerk compared to what real people do, unintentionally or not.

It's rather tragic and sad but from what I know on my home region few to none of the evils are unintentional.

Yes, all of this. What's important here is how will that happen.

Origin story. Right.

THe original pitch, when they announced DmC was that this was the story of how Dante 2.0 turned into Dante 1.0. I figuered they changed their minds after all that putting down of the game they did, but it might still be the plan.

"f-yous everywhere?" Sorry but that's a huge exaggeration.

Hold that thought for about 3 months. I need more footage before I prove or disprove you.