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Microtransactions in DMCV

D.Dark

Well-known Member
If all the bad press cause the game to fail or something capcom will end up deciding DMC doesn't make money. I already waited a damn decade for this. I don't want to wait another for the next one.

And you all point to DMC4SE and balancing, that isn't the point. The point is not to let this become a mainstay, I test fckn garbage mobile games for a living, I know exactly how it is designed and it is waay more subtle than you think.
 

Demi-fiend

Metempsychosis
Supporter 2014
The point is not to let this become a mainstay, I test fckn garbage mobile games for a living, I know exactly how it is designed and it is waay more subtle than you think.
Ah, an "industry insider" I see.

My God, your job must be absolutely soul-draining. I don't know how you do it.
 

Dark Drakan

Well-known Member
Admin
Moderator
Saw a tweet that summed up the gaming industry as a whole these days and it broke my heart as someone who wanted nothing more than to be a part of it as I was growing up. It is controlled by too many big corporations/publishers these days just wanting to milk its fans for cash rather than developers who have a passion for what they do.

 

D.Dark

Well-known Member
My God, your job must be absolutely soul-draining. I don't know how you do it.
It's beyond soul-draining, it's soul crushing. I deal with dread and depression quite often. Regardless my dream is to make games, and so I must do something to survive till I make my break.

It is controlled by too many big corporations/publishers these days just wanting to milk its fans for cash rather than developers who have a passion for what they do.
True. But that didn't stop a lot of developers from making absolutely astounding games. At the end they are making Art. And Art is timeless. You have to do what you must do, obstacles be damned.
 

JRA1

Member
Anyway, this donate-thing stops me from preordering. I'll have to wait for final release, and check reviews before purchase now. And Only after confirmation that they not force me to buy orb, i'll play the game.
But. Let's think. Why they will give you chance to buy orbs without making wish to do it? If no one will be in need to buy it, why add it for? And if they add this, I am pretty sure, that they WILL design game around it.
 
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Foxtrot94

Elite Hunter
Premium
But. Let's think. Why they will give you chance to buy orbs without making wish to do it? If no one will be in need to buy it, why add it for?

You could wonder the same about DMC4SE too. You know. Why putting buyable orbs in there and at the same time, increase the rate at which you obtain them by just playing compared to the original DMC4? Logic dictates that they should have lowered it instead to make the option to spend money more appealing. And yet...
 

JRA1

Member
You could wonder the same about DMC4SE too. You know. Why putting buyable orbs in there and at the same time, increase the rate at which you obtain them by just playing compared to the original DMC4? Logic dictates that they should have lowered it instead to make the option to spend money more appealing. And yet...

There is big difference. In DMC4SE they added it LATER, like, they designed game and shipped it without any any buyable orbs.
They added them in remaster in already designed game. Now they design game mentioning buyable orbs.
It means the may add extra grind, 3 000 000-orb-costing features and many other.
And anyway, why in the world you, as customer, defend method of taking money from you?
 

Foxtrot94

Elite Hunter
Premium
They added them in remaster in already designed game.

Irrelevant. The drop rate of orbs is a simple numeric value that depends on factors like style rank or a preset number that breakable objects provide, or defeating a boss, or whether or not you used an item etc etc. All things that don't require a redesign of the game from the ground-up, but rather, a simple lowering of that value. That's all they needed to do while developing the SE.

The suspicion that some people have (and that I can understand very well) that the pretty damn generous drop rate of the demo may differ from that of the final game stems exactly from this: drop rate changes don't require a change of design, but simply a tweaking of values that they can do easily from the demo to the finished game.

And anyway, why in the world you, as customer, defend method of taking money from you?

If you read my posts in this thread, you can see that I don't defend this practice. Hell, I previously defended Innsmouth's suspicion (which I talked about above) towards the final product. My personal stance on the topic at hand is that I simply don't care if micros are in there as long as the drop rate doesn't get tweaked to accomodate the presence of microtransactions. Because that's the only way it actually damages us as players, if they make the game such a grind that you're pretty much forced to buy orbs. Otherwise they're pointless and harmless like they were in DMC4SE.
 

D.Dark

Well-known Member
Otherwise they're pointless and harmless like they were in DMC4SE.
I really doubt it can be pointless and harmless. They start with DMC, then next Resident Evil and ofc. Street fighter, after which probably megaman. Microtransactions are nothing but greed, a game can most certainly sustain itself on it's sales. But how can they say no to more money.

Imagine microtransactions in a game like Resident Evil for instance, a game built on resource management, regardless of it's implementation it is most certain to break the game. They are just taking advantage of our love for DMC and it's most certainly because nobody kicked up a fuss for DMC4SE that we are now in this position.
 

JRA1

Member
Irrelevant. The drop rate of orbs is a simple numeric value that depends on factors like style rank or a preset number that breakable objects provide, or defeating a boss, or whether or not you used an item etc etc. All things that don't require a redesign of the game from the ground-up, but rather, a simple lowering of that value. That's all they needed to do while developing the SE.

The suspicion that some people have (and that I can understand very well) that the pretty damn generous drop rate of the demo may differ from that of the final game stems exactly from this: drop rate changes don't require a change of design, but simply a tweaking of values that they can do easily from the demo to the finished game.



If you read my posts in this thread, you can see that I don't defend this practice. Hell, I previously defended Innsmouth's suspicion (which I talked about above) towards the final product. My personal stance on the topic at hand is that I simply don't care if micros are in there as long as the drop rate doesn't get tweaked to accomodate the presence of microtransactions. Because that's the only way it actually damages us as players, if they make the game such a grind that you're pretty much forced to buy orbs. Otherwise they're pointless and harmless like they were in DMC4SE.

So, we're on the same side. But I'm more suspicions here. And I think that discussing this theme as much as possible is a way to attract attention, and may be influence some decisions. That's why i'm here. And anyway, for me the bast news would be 'we decided do not add micros', just to be secure. I'll preorder game after that. But now my excitement is "on hold".

I really doubt it can be pointless and harmless. They start with DMC, then next Resident Evil and ofc. Street fighter, after which probably megaman. Microtransactions are nothing but greed, a game can most certainly sustain itself on it's sales. But how can they say no to more money.

Imagine microtransactions in a game like Resident Evil for instance, a game built on resource management, regardless of it's implementation it is most certain to break the game. They are just taking advantage of our love for DMC and it's most certainly because nobody kicked up a fuss for DMC4SE that we are now in this position.
Agreed. We need to clearly show, how we, as customers, as community, as games dislike micros. We have to show, that this buisness pracrice is unethical. No matter how "harmless" they are.
Yes, they may not design whole game around it. And micros will be just a paid cheat. It is still harmfull. Un my time iddqd and idkfa was free.
 

TWOxACROSS

Hot-blooded God of Guns
Premium
Don't tell me you don't believe Capcom is capable of doing it, when they've done worse in the past.

Not anymore. This isn't Capcom circa 2010. I think they learned their lesson from that after consumer confidence in them plummeted. It's strange that everyone is praising them now for DMC5, RE7, REmake2, and Mega Man 11, but the moment people get even a whiff of something they dislike, they're ready to draw and quarter the devs, thinking the absolute worst of them.

Despite what they've done (and paid for) in the past, they have given me no reason to believe that they're going to lie so boldly to our faces, in this day and age, they know what will happen if they do. God, they saw a glimpse of it just when the news came out. Of course anything can happen, but I don't think it will.
 

JRA1

Member
Not anymore. This isn't Capcom circa 2010. I think they learned their lesson from that after consumer confidence in them plummeted. It's strange that everyone is praising them now for DMC5, RE7, REmake2, and Mega Man 11, but the moment people get even a whiff of something they dislike, they're ready to draw and quarter the devs, thinking the absolute worst of them.

Despite what they've done (and paid for) in the past, they have given me no reason to believe that they're going to lie so boldly to our faces, in this day and age, they know what will happen if they do. God, they saw a glimpse of it just when the news came out. Of course anything can happen, but I don't think it will.
What worst? They already did it. Micros ARE THERE. And micros ARE pure evil and greed in singleplayer. I already said, there is two ways of micros implementation: paywall/grindwall or payed cheat. And both of theese ways is not cool.
 

Erian1Mortal

Well-known Member
Premium
I mean I'm not a fan of this stuff, never was and never will be. But it's essentially the same thing the tales series does.
Pay for cheat codes (in that case more exp and more money to lessen the grind, a feature you can unlock after finishing the game to make ng+ more enjoyable). Namco has done that since forever now and nobody really bats an eye.
I really feel like this stuff gets blown way out of proportion.
 

DarkSlayerVergil

Well-known Member
What worst? They already did it. Micros ARE THERE. And micros ARE pure evil and greed in singleplayer. I already said, there is two ways of micros implementation: paywall/grindwall or payed cheat. And both of theese ways is not cool.
But we still have no proof that they're even doing a grindwall also I'd say the fact that they haven't done anything like this for SFV. A game where you can buy new characters for free with fight money and yes they did decrease how much FM you could earn but they made updates to survival that makes it more tolerable to play and easier to earn FM plus thier is the weekly challenges that you can do as well.

@Erian1Mortal or how about when Namco made everyone pay actual money for TK bowl? A game mode that was already in previous installments.
 

JRA1

Member
But we still have no proof that they're even doing a grindwall also I'd say the fact that they haven't done anything like this for SFV. A game where you can buy new characters for free with fight money and yes they did decrease how much FM you could earn but they made updates to survival that makes it more tolerable to play and easier to earn FM plus thier is the weekly challenges that you can do as well.

@Erian1Mortal or how about when Namco made everyone pay actual money for TK bowl? A game mode that was already in previous installments.
It. Is. Full. Prised. AAA. Single. Player. Game. Why in the hell anyone will want MTX in it?
 

TWOxACROSS

Hot-blooded God of Guns
Premium
If all the bad press cause the game to fail or something capcom will end up deciding DMC doesn't make money. I already waited a damn decade for this. I don't want to wait another for the next one.

And this is why you need to pick your battles. This isn't Asura's Wrath where the last portion of the game was extra DLC. This isn't Street Fighter x Tekken where they seemingly blatantly cut out content to sell at a later date. I was interested in both of those games, and I didn't buy them because that crap was terrible. Yet, I'm not about to write off DMC5 and toss it on my Do Not Buy list because of one thing that will in no way negatively affect me, or most of the average playerbase.

As a consumer we don't have wholesale control over the products we want, only what we buy. Sometimes companies do really stupid things for money; sometimes they do them because they can get away with it; but sometimes they do things because, despite it benefiting them, it doesn't hurt the consumer, and only seeks to help integrate another potential customer, like in this instance, one that fears buying a game they won't have nearly as much time to invest in.

Literally think about that - we want these games to succeed, so that a franchise can flourish, and that means sales and profits, units moved. Lots of players refrain from buying games they don't think they will have time to play and enjoy, that's lost sales, straight up. Yet, adding an option to unlock some extra stuff, instead of spending the time grinding for it, using a pittance of money they probably have from what gives them less time to spend on this hobby, that can be perfectly reasonable; my roommate does it sometimes. Looking at buying the game, and then maybe...what...ten more dollars maximum to be able to get the game and skip the grind might seem like a damn fine trade-off if it means our hypothetical guy can have fun stylin' on demons.

That's the other thing too. Yes, it's absurd that sometimes those monetized skipping options allow a player to just skip through entire portions of actual gameplay, but DMC is different. Devil May Cry is "not about the grind," and it's entirely foolish to say it is. Devil May Cry is an action game, you're supposed to have fun using all of your available skills to fight through the levels. Orbs are a means to an end, and once you've played the game long enough, they become completely irrelevant, and yet we keep playing long after gathering orbs becomes redundant. That's why we can revisit any mission whenever we want, with our characters always fully upgraded with all their capabilities intact. Who, when feeling the itch to replay DMC, starts a completely new file? Certainly not me. Certainly not the TrueStylers out there with maxed out orb counts. We put in the work, now it's time to play. If someone has the option and resources to skip that work, let them, they aren't hurting anyone, not even themselves.

If you're going to be upset, be reasonable. The reason I hated Jim Sterling's video is because he just applied the same level of thinking from previous incidents to this, when they are entirely different - he was being absolutely unreasonable. You can be okay with this, because it does not affect the game negatively (at least as per official statements are concerned), but not be okay with them pushing the envelope further. We can give an inch without letting them take a mile.

I don't like the idea of microtransactions either; I absolutely despise loot boxes; I hate the idea of DLC in nearly every case, and I express those concerns in a way that isn't getting angry at the drop of a hat and threatening the devs with the only power you have (your wallet). We live in an age where it's incredibly easy to communicate between devs and fans now, we can very easily slide up to Matt Walker in a year and be like "DMC5 was totally dope, but that microtransaction stuff makes us itchy, so please reconsider expanding those in the future, it's not cool."

Yet, if you want to die on this hill, with these principles about video games, then you have to realize that you can't have your cake and eat it too. You don't get to boycott a game with an innocuous microtransaction and then lament that we haven't gotten a new entry. Save your anger for when it really matters. Save your anger for when they actually do game the orb count or prices, or try to sell us the true ending as DLC.

And you all point to DMC4SE and balancing, that isn't the point. The point is not to let this become a mainstay, I test fckn garbage mobile games for a living, I know exactly how it is designed and it is waay more subtle than you think.

There's a massive difference between the mobile market and the home console market. As someone in that part of the former, and who enjoys the latter, you should know that.

What worst? They already did it. Micros ARE THERE. And micros ARE pure evil and greed in singleplayer. I already said, there is two ways of micros implementation: paywall/grindwall or payed cheat. And both of theese ways is not cool.

And this is what I'm talking about. Have some sense and realize there are nuances to this stuff. Everything is not cut and dry, black and white, good and evil. They're not cool, but they're not "pure evil." You act as if the devs are wringing their hands and cackling as they devise a way to strip away a couple extra bucks from someone of their own volition.
 

JRA1

Member
And this is what I'm talking about. Have some sense and realize there are nuances to this stuff. Everything is not cut and dry, black and white, good and evil. They're not cool, but they're not "pure evil." You act as if the devs are wringing their hands and cackling as they devise a way to strip away a couple extra bucks from someone of their own volition.

No, they ARE pure evil. Customer is not getting anything from this. Only "devs". Yes, companies want money. Thats why they are. Yes, people willing to pay. But there ARE dirty techniques. And MKX in PAID SINGLE games definetly one of those.
What do you defend them for?

What nuances? Design game progress system without MTX? If you want extra money - add 5$ to price? Get profit from game withot MTX? Say those trobles to God Of War, Spidey, Witcher 3 and so on. What is gray here? Gray contains both black and white. I see black. Grind design, payed cheats, greed. What is white here?
 

DarkSlayerVergil

Well-known Member
It. Is. Full. Prised. AAA. Single. Player. Game. Why in the hell anyone will want MTX in it?
Don't know why people would want them and also SFV is also a AAA online centric game that as I stated before should be the biggest offender of grind-wall effect and has yet to actually pull any of this. What reason would we have to believe that DMC5 would have it differently?
 

Foxtrot94

Elite Hunter
Premium
See, this is no way to address the issue. One thing is to express yourself against something, another is attacking people throwing dirt at them. This guy especially doesn't deserve it, he's been positive and transparent all the time.

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TWOxACROSS

Hot-blooded God of Guns
Premium
Customer is not getting anything from this. Only "devs".

Well that's just not true. It's a transaction, the customer buys a bunch of extra orbs to upgrade a character, and Capcom gets money. Capcom also doesn't get anything if the customer doesn't buy those red orbs. That's like...the purist form of business there is, it's the fundamental basis of a transaction.

Yes, companies want money. Thats why they are. Yes, people willing to pay. But there ARE dirty techniques. And MKX in PAID SINGLE games definetly one of those.

What's dirty about it? They were upfront and honest about its inclusion; they assured us so far that it would have zero affect on normal gameplay; and it's a feature that would otherwise be nonexistent if they didn't implement it, nor is it a necessary feature for the game.

What do you defend them for?

Because pick your battles better, and maybe don't think everyone is out to get you. Why not tweet at Matt Walker and tell him how evil you think he is. Or better yet, go find Itsuno, the guy literally making this game for you, and tell him you think he's evil. I'm sure he'd love that. I'm sure he'd really feel like listening. I'm sure he'd definitely love to keep making video games for people that think he's evil.

Ha, @Foxtrot94 beat me to it!

What nuances?

The nuance that every situation can be, and often is different, and buying red orbs in DMC5 with no change to the core gameplay, is entirely different than Shadow of War essentially bilking players into buying their dumb crates to get anything worthwhile.

Design game progress system without MTX?

It is designed without microtransactions. It was easy enough to slap on a feature for people who really don't want to grind, and would rather just spend a few dollars to skip said grind.

If you want extra money - add 5$ to price? Get profit from game withot MTX?

Yeah, that'll go over real well. Why should I pay an extra five dollars for the commensurate price of an extra feature I won't use, when they can just separately ask for five dollars from all the people that would use the feature? I think there's a word for it...Itsuno used it, and people are whining about it...was it...Player...chunks? Player Chunks? Oh, no, sorry, it's "player choice."

You need to look at exactly what DMC5 is, what it's doing, and what it could possibly do. We know that it's not a game based strictly around grinding, so a microtransaction that allows players to skip some of that grind if they want does not negatively impact the core experience. There's a concern that they could alter orb drop rates or jack up skill prices, forcing the player to use that microtransaction, yet we have confirmation from the devs that they are not, in any way, doing what people are concerned about.

There's a microtransaction, it sucks that it's there because they all pretty much suck, but it's not gonna hurt anything. It didn't hurt a single thing in DMC4se, and that's exactly what the devs said DMC5's use of it would be like. Start getting your hackles up if we come to find they lied, not before.
 
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