Is Vergil good or evil in DMC3? And Why?

[MephistoCarnival]

1. I still take the book's version of Dante's past over 3 mostly due to consistency.

2. And we see him go from a responsible man to a man child in 4. The development was thrown out.

3. "Lost a mother and brother to evil 20 yrs ago" That doesn't mean he was corrupted as a child.

1. Yes,but I wanted to play a GAME,so DMC3 gave me what I wanted and I liked it.
2. I was reffering to the development from 3 to 1. I don't like DMC4 Dante,it's my least favourite.
3.I've read somewhere on this forum that Vergil was corrupted at the age of 8. However,I still wanted to see the real vergil rather than the corrupted one.

 

[MephistoCarnival]

Indeed, how is any hack 'n' slash game anything more than a fighting arena structurally? Sure you can have platforming and puzzle solving here and there, but it's kind of the point to have confined spaces where you can battle enemies.

DMC1 and 3 easily had the most unique and challenging bosses. In my opinion DMC1's bosses were cooler and more intimidating, but DMC3's bosses required more varied tactics to beat. Sadly the standard enemies in DMC3 were a lot more generic than the hellbeasts found in the original game.

And I think DmC took a lot more from DMC4 than from DMC3. Like the ability to pull enemies to you, or pull yourself to enemies, very similar to Nero's Devil Bringer. Also the mission ranking system was pretty much like in DMC4 where damage taken didn't affect the final score all that much. Avoiding damage was just a nice bonus, but taking it didn't lower the overall score like in DMC3 and earlier games.

This is really off-topic.

Oh this.
Exactly,the hack n slash genre requires a lot of fighting areas because that's its main purpose.And DMC had puzzle solving but not that much,it was focused more on combat mechanics and gameplay rather than puzzle solving. I really found its battle arenas to be entertaining.

Yes,DMC1's bosses were more cool,creepier and hard to beat.DMC3's bosses required more tactics and combat diversity,still hard to beat but I liked those too,mainly Vergil of course.

DmC also took the teleporting from platform to platform like DMC4 had.But I was reffering to the story part.Like bringing Vergil into the story,Dante's development,similar to the one in DMC3 and so on,and also from DMC1,adding Mundus,portals,NTDante's devil trigger being similar to DMC1 Dante's etc (I can think of much more similarities but for now that's what I remember)

Well,it got off-topic,but it's still DMC related at least,a little discussion there and there doesn't hurt.^_^

 

[ROCKMAN X]

Fanboy must cry

Anyway this topic is getting out of hand i'll put a stop to this discussion >_> you have your opinion and i have mine i've already stated that DMC3's only actual redeemable quality is its controls and gameplay changes the story is lame,the gameplay length is half of DMC1's yadayada.

On Topic again: Vergil was also indescribably stupid just like any other cliched villain he never tries to reason with dante like the calm&collected intellectual he always pretends to be and that is why DmC vergil is way better as he does try to reason with dante and should have been the main character.

 

[MephistoCarnival]

On Topic again: Vergil was also indescribably stupid just like any other cliched villain he never tries to reason with dante like the calm&collected intellectual he always pretends to be and that is why DmC vergil is way better as he does try to reason with dante and should have been the main character.

So,you restrict yourself to calling me a fanboy when I clearly stated my arguments in a coherent manner? I'm sorry for liking what I like. And I'm sorry for being NEUTRAL and not hating on anything.


Anyway. Vergil is calm and collected and you can see it in the way he fights with his enemies,he doesn't talk much nonsense like Dante,he just kills and takes what's his,like in the Beowulf fight.
He can't reason with Dante because Dante always gets in his way and pulls out his gun,how can you be collected in such situation?
DmC Vergil reasons with Dante because Dante is on his side,because Dante didn't knew his true intention and because Vergil stated his true intentions after he used Dante to fight Mundus. Dante didn't know from the start what Vergil truly wanted,so Vergil said it to him.
It's the same thing like in DMC when Vergil stated he needed more power.
The difference in that in DmC Vergil wants to rule with Dante,and when he saw that Dante doesn't go his way,he started to fight with him.
Pretty elementary and the same,just with more explanations.

EDIT: Also,do you realise DmC also has the same number of missions DMC3/4 had?

 

[Lionheart]

1. I still take the book's version of Dante's past over 3 mostly due to consistency.

2. And we see him go from a responsible man to a man child in 4. The development was thrown out.

3. "Lost a mother and brother to evil 20 yrs ago" That doesn't mean he was corrupted as a child.

1. It's sad that the games (source material) are so vague compared to the books. I still like to keep it to the games' story, though.

2. Maybe we're giving the games too much credit. I don't see Dante go 'from a kid to a responsible man'. I saw him finally accept his heritage at the end of DMC3. As for the rest, he's Dante in DMC1, and he's just a cockier version of his DMC1 self in DMC4, which kind of makes sense. I mean, if he's become stronger than Sparda, I'd expect him to be cockier. DMC1 Dante wasn't quite a complete character, I suppose. In essence, he was a 'cooler' Leon Kennedy. But maybe I should play DMC1 again and see if I've missed something.

3. No, but he returned as Nero Angelo, so I'd guess Vergil was trained to become Nero Angelo from the time he was eight.

 

[DarkSlayerZero]

Anyway. Vergil is calm and collected

Like he is here?

3. No, but he returned as Nero Angelo, so I'd guess Vergil was trained to become Nero Angelo from the time he was eight.

The Novel's art well the colored versions depicts him with red eyes(not as red as they were as Angelo).

I guess that he wasn't completely taken during the novel's events.

 

[MephistoCarnival]

Like he is here?

I'd be angry myself to have someone after me,trying to destroy my plans for the second and third time.
But I was reffering when he fights.

 

[ROCKMAN X]

So,you restrict yourself to calling me a fanboy when I clearly stated my arguments in a coherent manner?

Well you did keep insisting that DMC3 has more to it then just awesome gameplay whatever. >_>

Vergil is calm and collected and you can see it in the way he fights with his enemies he doesn't talk much nonsense like Dante,he just kills and takes what's his,like in the Beowulf fight

That's arrogance albeit subtle but still arrogant not sensible on any level.

He can't reason with Dante because Dante always gets in his way and pulls out his gun,how can you be collected in such situation?

Eh.. he was the one to send arkham&hell spawns to Dante's shop... i'm pretty sure if he was not a cliched villain he would have tried to reason with dante like :-

Vergil: "Dante i'm not looking for a fight we need to seal this tower ASAP demons will wreak havoc in the town"
Dante: "hey didn't you raise the tower you jackass !?"
Vergil: "Well yeah kinda but i'm screwed here but i but i think we should now just focus on our common interests
Dante: "What common interest ?"
Vergil: "Well you see i need some blood sacrifice thing here and i basically need you amulet to close this tower otherwise innocent people die !"

If the story went like that then i would have liked DMC3's story much better not to mention fighting Vergil using Sparda DT would have been epic.

Vergil stated his true intentions after he used Dante to fight Mundus.

Yes he is an intelligent villain unlike old vergil.

It's the same thing like in DMC when Vergil stated he needed more power.

Not really DMC vegil was just whining over and over like a broken tape-recorder whereas DmC's vergil has the brains to manipulate Dante

The difference in that in DmC Vergil wants to rule with Dante,and when he saw that Dante doesn't go his way,he started to fight with him.

So he did try to reason with Dante first unlike DMC dante who just starts swinging his blade whenever he sees anything move this only works for Kratos because that's the point of his character.. RAGE.

 

[EnJ]

Vergil: "Dante i'm not looking for a fight we need to seal this tower ASAP demons will wreak havoc in the town"
Dante: "hey didn't you raise the tower you jackass !?"
Vergil: "Well yeah kinda but i'm screwed here but i but i think we should now just focus on our common interests
Dante: "What common interest ?"
Vergil: "Well you see i need some blood sacrifice thing here and i basically need you amulet to close this tower otherwise innocent people die !"
.

But this also cliche. Almost every villian try to convince the hero-type character that he is do right things, they both can get some profit from his plans and he has a tasty cookies.
And Vergil from DMC3 not so big cliche. I cant remember villians simillar to him ftom movies\games what i had watched recently.

PS The scene where reVergil try to reason with reDante is second most stupid scene from all game (first one is exechange Cath for Lilith). They start fight simply from nothing. First of all Vergil could find better words than "to rule this, everything", and dat Dante reaction....hundreds of people were killed, half of city destroyed, demons everywhere and he wants give people a absolute freedom :lol: And dat ending "-i dont know who i'am anymore..." looks like meningitis erase his memory again

 

[TerrorA]

PS The scene where reVergil try to reason with reDante is second most stupid scene from all game (first one is exechange Cath for Lilith). They start fight simply from nothing. First of all Vergil could find better words than "to rule this, everything", and dat Dante reaction....hundreds of people were killed, half of city destroyed, demons everywhere and he wants give people a absolute freedom :lol: And dat ending "-i dont know who i'am anymore..." looks like meningitis erase his memory again

Yes, he wants to give people freedom, for the same reason why we have free will in the first place. As Angel told Jasmine: "It has to be their choice" For good or ill, we must write our stories in the book of Eternity.

And as for the "I don't know who I am anymore." Give him a break! In 1 day he gained and lost a brother, found out he wasn't even remotely human, killed a demon king, and unleashed a hidden power that is highly implied to be slowly destroying his human form. He's going to have some issues with that.

 

[ROCKMAN X]

But this also cliche. Almost every villian try to convince the hero-type character that he is do right things, they both can get some profit from his plans and he has a tasty cookies.

I'm not a good writer >_> i just wanted to point out that Vergil could have been more than just a dumb villain who just looks cool and its in anyone's nature to try to convince people before engaging in a bloody battle.

And Vergil from DMC3 not so big cliche. I cant remember villians simillar to him ftom movies\games what i had watched recently.

Don't stress your brain so hard its clearly obvious that Vergil doesn't try to do anything like an a non-cliched character all there is to his character is "IMM hate Dante" "Imma cool guy"

Even kratos is more reasonable than vergil and that's saying a lot.

 

[Loopy]

But this also cliche. Almost every villian try to convince the hero-type character that he is do right things, they both can get some profit from his plans and he has a tasty cookies.
And Vergil from DMC3 not so big cliche. I cant remember villians simillar to him ftom movies\games what i had watched recently.

Vergil is cliche in a way. His tragic past is the driving force behind his quest for power. His disgust at his humans side because he thinks it holds him back from true power. So he's the same as other villains who want to gain power, raise hell and have the opinion that humans are weak and stupid.
Vergil even has Arkham as a sidekick, and then betrays him, which has been done before in other games/ media.
The only thing close to Vergil asking Dante to join him was when he asked Dante 'why do you refuse to gain power? The power of our father Sparda.' But I'd say that was more due to Vergil being angry that Dante is throwing away his demonic lineage.Other than that, Vergil just goes around doing his own thing with no thought to the consequences.

PS The scene where reVergil try to reason with reDante is second most stupid scene from all game (first one is exechange Cath for Lilith).

I've seen worse scenes in games.:troll:

They start fight simply from nothing. First of all Vergil could find better words than "to rule this, everything", and dat Dante reaction....hundreds of people were killed, half of city destroyed, demons everywhere and he wants give people a absolute freedom :lol: And dat ending "-i dont know who i'am anymore..." looks like meningitis erase his memory again

[/quote]
It's not like classic Vergil with Dante was any better. They could have gotten so much more out of that confrontation in hell. Instead they have a petty sibling argument about a problem they made for themselves over who should have the amulets. The only consolation I get from that part of the game was Vergil telling Dante to leave....maybe he cared for Dante on some level if he could tell him to get out before it was too late.

At least with NT Dante and Vergil confronting each other, the argument was over something bigger: the fate of humanity. NT Vergil seems so betrayed by Dante when he refuses to rule. All along he thought the only being worthy to rule with him was his brother, but when Dante disagrees, Vergil feels betrayed. Plus, the part where Vergil is wounded and says 'I loved you brother' was more than classic Dante ever got from Vergil. It's just so sad and shows how screwed up Vergil is.

Anyway.... I'm just grateful that they did not fall out over who wants to date Kat.:troll:

Besides, this ending about humanity being unwitting slaves or being free to make their own mistakes and struggle, it seems to be a theme for NT. They did this ending in the Enslaved game as well.

 

[EnJ]

Yes, he wants to give people freedom, for the same reason why we have free will in the first place. As Angel told Jasmine: "It has to be their choice" For good or ill, we must write our stories in the book of Eternity.
.

Oh man he not even know what Vergil plan to do. He fights him because of word "rule". It's looks ridiculous.

I'm not a good writer >_> i just wanted to point out that Vergil could have been more than just a dumb villain who just looks cool and its in anyone's nature to try to convince people before engaging in a bloody battle.Don't stress your brain so hard its clearly obvious that Vergil doesn't try to do anything like an a non-cliched character all there is to his character is "IMM hate Dante" "Imma cool guy"

Even kratos is more reasonable than vergil and that's saying a lot.

I guess he maybe tryed it once. When they first meet at Temennigru he asked why did he refuse a gaining power. And Dante didn't like him there already. So they had some confilct in their past i guess. And trying to reasoning with Dante at their every meeting would look pathetic.
And if talk about cliche villians...mundus is far superior example of it. Allmost every villian it's something like him with "Imma GODLIKE you are NOTHING'-problems in their heads.

 

[aoshi]

Oh man he not even know what Vergil plan to do. He fights him because of word "rule". It's looks ridiculous.

I think dante was more of a communist who was against capitalist nature of vergil. :lol:. It can also be interpreted as democracy vs dictatorship.

The issue with vergil was he lacked a human side of things and since the world is of humans, Him ruling would not be so right even though it isn't so wrong.

I mean, take the end of mission 12 for example, even after kat put so much effort, he didn't care if she died.:/

 

[MephistoCarnival]

Well you did keep insisting that DMC3 has more to it then just awesome gameplay whatever. >_> That's arrogance albeit subtle but still arrogant not sensible on any level.Eh.. he was the one to send arkham&hell spawns to Dante's shop... i'm pretty sure if he was not a cliched villain he would have tried to reason with dante like :-

Vergil: "Dante i'm not looking for a fight we need to seal this tower ASAP demons will wreak havoc in the town"
Dante: "hey didn't you raise the tower you jackass !?"
Vergil: "Well yeah kinda but i'm screwed here but i but i think we should now just focus on our common interests
Dante: "What common interest ?"
Vergil: "Well you see i need some blood sacrifice thing here and i basically need you amulet to close this tower otherwise innocent people die !"

If the story went like that then i would have liked DMC3's story much better not to mention fighting Vergil using Sparda DT would have been epic. Yes he is an intelligent villain unlike old vergil.Not really DMC vegil was just whining over and over like a broken tape-recorder whereas DmC's vergil has the brains to manipulate DanteSo he did try to reason with Dante first unlike DMC dante who just starts swinging his blade whenever he sees anything move this only works for Kratos because that's the point of his character.. RAGE.

Vergil's selfish and arrogant at evil at times but shows some moments in which he isn't.
Okay? I don't think people need to reason and to explain why they like the characters they like.
I can like the most evil villain I can find,or the most misunderstood,or the most arrogant one and I'll still like him because I don't know,I like certain something at them.
You can as well not to like him and I don't care.


That's the most OOC dialogue I've seen.
Vergil isn't the person to deal or to discuss with. He just does what he does without many words.

To like a story more just because the villain would try to explain something to the hero is pointless and arrogant.
Not all villains are like this how you portray them,or on your taste,they just act in a way,and they often don't show compassion for the hero.

Excuse me,who was whining?I think you confuse them.
Vergil doesn't need Dante or anyone to reach his goal. And he also used Arkham and as soon as he found a little bit of compassion in him he killed him.He doesn't whine,and I don't know if you remember him and Dante reasoning in the last mission just like NTDante and NTVergil did in the last mission in DmC.

I don't think he was trying to manipulate Dante,he becomes more evil in the DLC,but in DmC he actually cared for Dante,but as soon as he found out his big bro doesn't share the same goal as him he tried to fight him.
Tell me this isn't arrogance or selfishness.
To try to fight your brother because he stands in the way of your goal.Just like in DMC.

 

[EnJ]

1) Vergil is cliche in a way....


2)It's not like classic Vergil with Dante was any better.

3)At least with NT Dante and Vergil confronting each other, the argument was over something bigger: the fate of humanity.
4)Plus, the part where Vergil is wounded and says 'I loved you brother' was more than classic Dante ever got from Vergil. It's just so sad and shows how screwed up Vergil is.

1) I am not saying that Vergil is very unique character. I agreed with the fact that he has some similar things with some number of villians. But not as much as Mundus for example. Besides he cool as f**k, so who cares about that similarity

2) They fight versus each other whole game, so their final fight didn't look like "WTF they are doing?"

3) I'm interested what Dante imagined when hear "...to rule". Like Vergil resurrect succubus for poisoning people again, then take lash and go to "rule" or something like this. It's whas not for humanity, it was because of bad scenario.

4) Original Vergil is non-emotional type of person. And this is good. Because Vergil-moaner looks pathetic. And besides, original ending looks more sad for me even without all that "I loved u T_T"

 

[ROCKMAN X]

I guess he maybe tryed it once. When they first meet at Temennigru he asked why did he refuse a gaining power.

That's not how you reason with people dude.. i'd be very very p!ssed off if someone send a bunch of these things to my house when i'm enjoying pizzas and then suddenly when i climb up the devious tower all i hear is someone whining about getting more power ?? why should dante bother ? he just wants to chill.

And Dante didn't like him there already.

Rationally speaking no one likes a brother who sends demons in your shop.. its just mean to interrupt when someone's eating or relaxing.

And trying to reasoning with Dante at their every meeting would look pathetic.

So charging up like rage filled idiots makes perfect sense ? it just seems half-assed we are given no reason to root for anyone in the battle or take interst in any of the characters because they both act like idiots.

And if talk about cliche villians...mundus is far superior example of it.

I knew this was coming yes he is a cliche villain but that kinda makes sense actually because he's just this "SUper evil " dude who pulls strings and just waits for you to come... i know its just cliched but it works we don't need any more in depth analysis to know why he's the bad guy he killed dante's family and he's the main goal plain&simple just like many other famous villains i know of :-

Whereas Vergil doesn't really strike as a super powerful force to be reckoned with so we need more reason to actually give a damn about vergil just like how Loki sucks at being a villain.

Allmost every villian it's something like him with "Imma GODLIKE you are NOTHING'-problems in their heads.

I have no problems with simple characters like them actually but vergil is neither Dante's main goal nor is powerful force who can bend time&Space.. so he needs to make himself somehow intersting to the player by either behaving like Vegeta(DBZ) or simply being 100% more powerful than Dante which he would have been if he stole Dante's amulet and used SpardaDT.

 

[EnJ]

Once again, they has some past. Who knows how much Vergil try to reason with Dante, and who knows how Dante react. Keep chatting for eternity it's not a case to. Besides, till the end of the game Dante also didn't try to reason with Vergil. So why bad guy should do that if even the good one doesnt want it.
And it's a little hard to chat on serious themes with person like he:

:lol:

 

[Lionheart]

I think dante was more of a communist who was against capitalist nature of vergil. :lol:. It can also be interpreted as democracy vs dictatorship.

The issue with vergil was he lacked a human side of things and since the world is of humans, Him ruling would not be so right even though it isn't so wrong.

I mean, take the end of mission 12 for example, even after kat put so much effort, he didn't care if she died.:/

You mean Dante's capitalist versus Vergil's communist Seriously, I'd go with capitalism any day.

 

[Loopy]

2) They fight versus each other whole game, so their final fight didn't look like "WTF they are doing?"

Maybe the DmC Dante against Vergil was intended to be WTF moment. Throughout the game, Dante and Vergil are shown working together for a common goal, even beginning to behave like brothers who look after each other.
But then when they fight over something so sudden, it is a surprise, like a sense of where did it go wrong.
Vergil seems to be surprised by Dante's sudden change and expected him to rule alongside him, but when Dante disagrees, Vergil feels betrayed. And because Vergil now sees Dante as an obstacle to his goal, he has to fight him.

In contrast to DMC3, the ultimate fight has been building up throughout the whole game. It's established that neither twin likes the other much and have been estranged for a year prior to the game beginning. It was inevitable that they would clash by the end, whereas DmC built up the sense of how they could be brothers but were torn apart by the end and will be clashing like DMC3 Dante and Vergil in the future.

3) I'm interested what Dante imagined when hear "...to rule". Like Vergil resurrect succubus for poisoning people again, then take lash and go to "rule" or something like this. It's whas not for humanity, it was because of bad scenario.

I think what Phineas told Dante about who will take Mundus' place made Dante worried Vergil would be a bad ruler.
There were also hints of Vergil being not quite right which Dante saw. Vergil made Kat erase the servers at risk to her life, let SWAT shoot her, let her be captured, refused to rescuse her from Mundus until Dante argued the trade, then endangered Kat's life by shooting Lilith. Vergil also hid in the shadows while he made his brother do all the dangerous work. So, I guess those would be some good hints to Dante that maybe his brother was not as good intentioned as he seemed.
Kat was human, and he treated her as if she was expendable, so I guess Dante thought that would be Vergil's attitude to humans once he ruled them. Even though Vergil said he would respect his 'subjects', he's almost being like Mundus who said that he was saving the humans from themselves and giving them order. Mundus and Vergil were quite the same by the end.
Then there are the event sof the DLC, Vergil's downfall, which show that behind his calm face, he's a twisted guy...maybe worse than Mundus by the end of the DLC.

4) Original Vergil is non-emotional type of person. And this is good. Because Vergil-moaner looks pathetic. And besides, original ending looks more sad for me even without all that "I loved u T_T"

[/quote]
I agree, Vergil giving himself a pitty party would have been strange to see. I would not have liked that. At least DMC3 Vergil had some kind of feeling for Dante at the end, feeling enough to tell him to get out before he was trapped in hell.
As for DmC Vergil, I do wonder if his 'I loved you brother' was genuinely loving him like a brother, or loving him because he was the only Nephilim and the only one Vergil saw as good enough to rule with him. Either way, he seemed pretty betrayed and hurt.