Is Vergil good or evil in DMC3? And Why?

[ROCKMAN X]

Vergil's selfish and arrogant at evil at times but shows some moments in which he isn't.

LOL When was that ?? I played and finished DMC3 more than 10 times did i miss something ? or did my copy of DMC3 have a bug which didn't play a specific cutscene where Vergil actually doesn't act like a cliched villain ?

I can like the most evil villain I can find,or the most misunderstood,or the most arrogant one and I'll still like him because I don't know,I like certain something at them.

You like woobies plain&simple.

Vergil isn't the person to deal or to discuss with. He just does what he does without many words.

Reminds me of someone like kratos not a character who's "Calm&composed" and yet doesn't try to reason with anyone.. kinda self-contradictory logic there.

To like a story more just because the villain would try to explain something to the hero is pointless and arrogant.

It still makes hell of a sense than just "Hi brother DIE BROTHER ! " there's one long unexplained backstory of Dante&Vergil's feud never to be told which begs the question why should get invested vergil's character ?

Not all villains are like this how you portray them,or on your taste,they just act in a way,and they often don't show compassion for the hero.

Bulls!ht a villain can only be interesting in 2 ways

1) Being 1000% times more powerful then the main character
2) Having an interesting character

In Vergil's case he isn't 1000% stronger than dante neither does he have anything remotely resembling a decent character.

Vergil doesn't need Dante or anyone to reach his goal

That's why he needs Dante's Amulet&blood right ? and not to mention lady's blood too.

He doesn't whine,and I don't know if you remember him and Dante reasoning in the last mission just like NTDante and NTVergil did in the last mission in DmC.

Except DmC Vergil was actually reasoning and DMC vergil was just bragging and demanding.

I don't think he was trying to manipulate Dante

He actually was playing safe by tagging up with dante and then asking him to join... and when dante refused he knew how to deal with Dante... that's a very nice plan if you ask me.

Tell me this isn't arrogance or selfishness.

DmC vergil hardly comes off as arrogant.. rather he comes off as a clever,opportunistic guy yes he maybe selfish who wouldn't be if they have that much power ? he just wants to rule over humans is that Selfish ?? hardly :lol: its not like he's going to start a 4th Reich.

To try to fight your brother because he stands in the way of your goal.Just like in DMC.

IDK what you're trying to do here yes both games are similar but their motives&actions and explained much better in DmC.

Also,do you realise DmC also has the same number of missions DMC3/4 had?

No i just find DMC3 to be the shortest even compared to DMC4&DmC it just feels too short i can breeze through all the levels in an instant.. probably has to do with the bland level design.

 

[MephistoCarnival]

You mean Dante's capitalist versus Vergil's communist Seriously, I'd go with capitalism any day.

I'm neutral on this one. Communism isn't good,my country used to be a communist country and my parents told me it was basically restricting anything and masked corruption.
Now then,capitalism isn't that good either,there's also a lot of corruption,overpopulation and way too much people driven by money and power in the industry etc.
But capitalism is definetely better than communism in many aspects when it comes to the population.

Vergil represents the dictatorship side and Dante the democracy and liberal side,especially liberal side I'd say.
(Ohgod,we've come to compare video game characters with political philosophies xD)

 

[MephistoCarnival]

LOL When was that ?? I played and finished more than DMC3 10 times did i miss something ? or did my copy of DMC3 have a bug which didn't play a specific cutscene where Vergil actually doesn't act like a cliched villain ?
You like woobies plain&simple.Reminds me of someone like kratos not a character who's "Calm&composed" and yet doesn't try to reason with anyone.. kinda self-contradictory logic there.
It still makes hell of a sense than just "Hi brother DIE BROTHER ! " there's one long unexplained backstory of Dante&Vergil's feud never to be told which begs the question why should get invested vergil's character ? Bulls!ht a villain can only be interesting in 2 ways

1) Being 1000% times more powerful then the main character
2) Having an interesting character

In Vergil's case he isn't 1000% stronger than dante neither does he have anything remotely resembling a decent character.That's why he needs Dante's Amulet&blood right ? and not to mention lady's blood too.Except DmC Vergil was actually reasoning and DMC vergil was just bragging and demanding.He actually was playing safe by tagging up with dante and then asking him to join... and when dante refused he knew how to deal with Dante... that's a very nice plan if you ask me.DmC vergil hardly comes off as arrogant.. rather then a clever opportunistic guy yes he maybe selfish who wouldn't be if they have that much power ? he just wants to rule over humans is that Selfish ?? hardly :lol: its not like he's going to start a 4th Reich.IDK what you're trying to do here yes both games are similar but their motives&actions and explained much better in DmC.No i just find DMC3 to be the shortest even compared to DMC4&DmC it just feels to short i can breeze through all the levels in an instant.. probably has to do with the bland level design.

I swear I can't get a hold on your arguments.
You either say them from your subjective point of view and blatantly insult my preferences because I don't know.
Either ways,you don't do good.

Oh god, quote me where I said that Vergil wasn't cliched, just quote IT.

Did I say something not true? That Vergil isn't arrogant or selfish? Yes he is and I said it. Now what was your point again?

AGAIN, I don't think you're in the right to judge my preferences buddy.
You know I don't care.

At least I gave some arguments and I tried to reason with examples,analisys and such.
I haven't see you done something like his,rather just do some arguments based on your tastes and not on facts.

Oh,he needed his amulet ,not Dante, an amulet is an object though. And Vergil knew Dante was after him so why bothering seeking help from him?

AND ,who needs a villain explaining his goals and intentions too much?
When you will get the idea that Vergil isn't the type to try to explain to his little stubborn brother why he's like that.
Not every villain has to be a compassionate and loving brother. They wouldn't be villains after all. What's the magic in that?
" Oh you know brother,I'm gonna open a gate to hell,I need your amulet and blood, Let's have a seat to explain you why I want that,do you want some cookies with that?"
No, BEEN THERE DONE THAT. Simple.


Again,I think you're confusing way too much things. A villain doesn't need explanations as why they're like that,they have their reasons,which may not be rational because that's why the represent the bad side and they do evil things because they want to or either have a reason to.
Stronger than the character? That's why they're defeated thus showing that good always wins over bad? And wasn't Vergil basically stronger than Dante at first?

No.
Vergil did show care for his brother in DmC,he was happy that he found him and thought that Dante shared the same goal as him.
When he saw that Dante was against him he became serious and tried to kill him. Just like old Vergil.But with more compassion shown at first.

He is selfish. To want to rule over humans even if it means killing your OWN brother is selfish. And he becames more arrogant in evil in the DLC.

Oh.so you're now contradicting yourself,weird.

What? DMC3 considered even by the critics being the hardest game of the DMC franchise and you say you went all fast through it? Hard to believe.
You you went fast because of the level designs? How funny and NONSENSICAL.

I don't try to explain you anymore why DMC3 had amazing level designs because I analyzed it myself in my previous posts.

Putting and end to this,I do think I have the right to like the characters I like.DmC did brought more explaining and depth to his character,but in essence ,especially in the end,they're quite similar.

 

[aoshi]

You mean Dante's capitalist versus Vergil's communist Seriously, I'd go with capitalism any day.

Nah...

communism, the political and economic doctrine that aims to replace private property and a profit-basedeconomy with public ownership and communal control of at least the major means of production (e.g., mines, mills, and factories) and the natural resources of asociety. Communism is thus a form of socialism

Source

Capitalism and capitalist economics is generally considered to be the opposite ofsocialism, which contrasts with all forms of capitalism in the following ways: social ownership of the means of production, where returns on the means of production accrue to society at large, and goods and services are produced directly for their utility (as opposed to being produced by profit-seeking businesses).

Source

Dante wanted public ownership but vergil wanted private property rights.

Communism Vs Capitalism should be an interesting debate. But i favor a good mix of both.

 

[MephistoCarnival]

Nah...



Source



Source

Dante wanted public ownership but vergil wanted private property rights.

Communism Vs Capitalism should be an interesting debate. But i favor a good mix of both.

Communism isn't good.
My parents told me how it was.
It was horrible,they had restricted hours of TV,an hour or two,in the morning and in the evening.They were restricted from the other western countries,meaning no news,no music,no television and no products exported here.
They were forced to be indoctrinated by what what those with power considered was good.
The history told in their books revolved only around communism and their dictators and no real history.The lack of books was considerable. Children and teens were forced to do parades and were harshly punished if they dared to say something against the dictatorship. There were no equal rights. Rich families were taken everything and forced to do lame jobs even if they had a good position in the hierarchy.
There was a high rate of corruption without the population knowing anything about it.People didn't have the right to say anything or to be able to share their opinions,they just worked and worked.

The only good side of it was that everybody had a job and was bound to have a job.

 

[Lionheart]

Yeah. Also, aside from that, I think the amount of goods you're allowed to deal in, as well as the amount of money you get for it is determined by the government. Basically, nobody in communist countries would be as wealthy as they could be in capitalist countries. It's extreme control on all levels; social as well as economic. It's stifling.

We have a socialist party here in the Netherlands, too. When they talk about making income more uniform across all jobs, I just think: how can you call that fair? The ones who contribute the most/run the most risk of disease and/or death deserve the most, after all.

Anyway, isn't this a DMC/DmC forum?

 

[MephistoCarnival]

Communism was bad after all.
I'd take capitalism anyday.

Psst,let's get back on topic.

 

[ROCKMAN X]

AGAIN, I don't think you're in the right to judge my preferences buddy

Wait.. where did your preference sneak into the argument ?? i thought we were having a completely rational discussion about vergil's lack of character and his stupid actions.

I seriously don't have a clue where i'm hurting your preference in this but it seems like its hurting you pretty bad which i honestly don't care about either.

At least I gave some arguments and I tried to reason with examples,analisys and such.
I haven't see you done something like his,rather just do some arguments based on your tastes and not on facts

Hmm let's have a recap to this argument shall we ?

Me: DMC hasn't been artistically consistent (Fact)
You:I liked DMC3's idea. It's a good reboot to DMC1 (Opinion)

Me: DmC&DMC1 both have great level designs and art direction DMC 3 sadly doesn't(Fact)
You:Actually DMC3 gave something more original compared to DMC1 in terms of level design&art direction(Opinion)

Me:Except for amazing gameplay DMC3 is a downgrade from DMC1 in every sense the story's writing is halfassed,the game's length is small,the level designing is bland and lackluster,no metal/creepy Soundtrack(Fact)
You: of course it's a fighting arena,hack n slash.And not everything is like that (Opinion)

Me:Vergil never tries to reason with dante like the calm&collected intellectual he always pretends to be(Fact)
You:He can't reason with Dante because Dante always gets in his way and pulls out his gun(Completely Wrong factually Vergil was the one to start the violence)

You:Vergil's selfish and arrogant at evil at times but shows some moments in which he isn't (Opinion)
Me: Did i miss a cutscene where Vergil actually doesn't act like a typical 2d villain ? (sarcasm because clearly there are no moments where he isn't selfish or arrogant)

Me:There's one long unexplained backstory of Dante&Vergil's feud never to be told which begs the question why should the player get invested vergil's character ? (Fact)
You:Not all villains are like this how you portray them,or on your taste,they just act in a way,and they often don't show compassion for the hero (equivocation fallacyit doesn't have anything to with the argument but rather than what you think about it)

Now you decide who has provided actual facts&insight in this argument ? you are the only one who seems to be highly opinionated

When you will get the idea that Vergil isn't the type to try to explain to his little stubborn brother why he's like that Not every villain has to be a compassionate and loving brother. They wouldn't be villains after all. What's the magic in that?

You've seriously left the actual argument in the dumpster now :ermm: the argument was about "Why vergil doesn't have any redeemable qualities" not "Why vergil should care about his pesky stubborn brother" you're speaking from the perspective of vergil's character not the perspective of a person who's discussing on the forums about the character.

Let's have a seat to explain you why I want that,do you want some cookies with that?

Very funny although i'd take that over simple *Grunt grunt* Gimme mah powah ! followed by more shonen melodrama B.S which adds nothing to his character.

A villain doesn't need explanations as why they're like that

No you're terribly wrong a villain DOES need explanations as to why he's like that mundus had one because he was the Evil demon overlord who has a blood feud with dante so its perfectly understandable why dante&mundus are enemies.. and why exactly are Vergil&Dante so angry at each other to the point of killing each others ?

Stronger than the character?

If the Main villain isn't stronger and completely dominating the main character then the villain is an underdog just like loki. Mundus was presented as a God like entity who Dante has to defeat that alone made his character interesting.

And wasn't Vergil basically stronger than Dante at first?

Not really actually Dante was just getting started after vergil stabbed him in the ground like a coward he wakes up like badass as if the real fight wasn't even started and actually forced vergil to retreat.

Just like old Vergil

Except he tried to politely REASON with Dante First... and he wasn't whining about nonsensical sense of honor and how demon heritage gives him boners.

To want to rule over humans even if it means killing your OWN brother is selfish

Actually it isn't both are subjective... Vergil just wants to rule and doesn't care whatever Dante does but dante doesn't agree and is obliged to stop him and that means Dante is equally selfish to want to kill his brother just because he doesn't like his idea of the world.. that's kinda hypocritical.

DMC3 considered even by the critics being the hardest game of the DMC franchise and you say you went all fast through it? Hard to believe

LOL I'm used to playing ball biting hard games since i was a 6 yr old and its against my gamer pride to choose "easy mode" in any game.

DMC 3 is hardly the "Hardest" in the franchise i find myself struggling with DMC 1's DMD mode more than DMC3's DMD mode simply because you have so many options on your hand styles,more camera angles,better controls and much much more diverse combat you can easily get an SSS rank if you can perfect Trickster style.

You you went fast because of the level designs? How funny and NONSENSICAL

How are facts nonsensical ?DMC 3 has the shortest game length when compared to DMC4 which had both nero+dante sections and bigger levels.

DMC3 had amazing level designs I analyzed it myself in my previous posts

You've mostly just stated your opinion actually hardly addressing an unbiased critical view every level you've listed are arena like which are commonly found in many hack'n'slash games.

> Nevan's level is just one big stage what's "Amazing level designing" here ?
> Cube room is just an empty disco room amazing level design ?

The only level worth mentioning the prelude to HellGate one... and even then there are already many levels like that in DMC1.

Anyway, isn't this a DMC/DmC forum?

Yes.. yes it is

.

 

[Demi-fiend]

Can't... stop... liking... RMX's... posts. :blink:

Hey, it's not my fault they kick copious amounts of ass.

 

[aoshi]

Communism isn't good.
My parents told me how it was.
It was horrible,they had restricted hours of TV,an hour or two,in the morning and in the evening.They were restricted from the other western countries,meaning no news,no music,no television and no products exported here.
They were forced to be indoctrinated by what what those with power considered was good.
The history told in their books revolved only around communism and their dictators and no real history.The lack of books was considerable. Children and teens were forced to do parades and were harshly punished if they dared to say something against the dictatorship. There were no equal rights. Rich families were taken everything and forced to do lame jobs even if they had a good position in the hierarchy.
There was a high rate of corruption without the population knowing anything about it.People didn't have the right to say anything or to be able to share their opinions,they just worked and worked.

The only good side of it was that everybody had a job and was bound to have a job.

I never said communism is better than capitalism.

IMO, Capitalism too has a fair share of issues. The main goal behind capitalism is profit-making. It bothers me when anything and everything revolves around profit-making. Its no different than mundus where "the world is a factory farm of souls" that he uses to make profit.

Communism has a sense of equality and a society with less discrimination. But i don't prefer extreme communism where equality is forced in number of hours to watch TV(WTF!!!!).In a way, communism is against discrimination like nepotism which is accepted in capitalism.

Thats why i said i prefer a good mix of both.

Me: DMC hasn't been artistically consistent (Fact)

No. Artistic can be subjective and does not need consistency. DMC 1 was in mallet island. DMC 3 was in temen-ni-gru. Are you saying that both mallet island and temen-ni-gru should be consistent with each other?
Certainly not a fact.

Me: DmC&DMC1 both have great level designs and art direction DMC 3 sadly doesn't(Fact)

No. It's jus your opinion.

Me:Except for amazing gameplay DMC3 is a downgrade from DMC1 in every sense the story's writing is halfassed,the game's length is small,the level designing is bland and lackluster,no metal/creepy Soundtrack(Fact)

I'd take an 'awakening' story(both spiritual and physical) anyday over cloning(Trish). Even though its an opinion, Your statements are no different from an opinion either. For example, DMC 3 has one of best soundtracks of any and all games but to discredit as not being metal is an opinion.

Me: Did i miss a cutscene where Vergil actually doesn't act like a typical 2d villain ? (sarcasm because clearly there are no moments where he isn't selfish or arrogant)

In Mission 19, Vergil puts his sibling rivalry aside and teams with dante in taking down arkham.
In DMC 3 end, Vergil decides to lock himself in the demon-world.

Both are selfless acts.

Me:There's one long unexplained backstory of Dante&Vergil's feud never to be told which begs the question why should the player get invested vergil's character ? (Fact)

DMC 3 is not called vergil's awakening. So player need not be invested in vergil's character at all. But irony is, Vergil steals the show in DMC 3.

Now you decide who has provided actual facts&insight in this argument ?

Your arguments are opinionated as any.

 

[MephistoCarnival]

Can't... stop... liking... RMX's... posts. :blink:

Hey, it's not my fault they kick copious amounts of ass.

It's cool if you like insults and nonsensical,pointless arguments.
But don't worry I can easily destroy them.^_^

See? You're blind again because you see someone against DMC 3 or anything and you try to be on their side even if they're not right.

 

[EnJ]

I like how Rockman call his own opinion a fact. It is so mature :lol:

 

[EnJ]

I think what Phineas told Dante about who will take Mundus' place made Dante worried Vergil would be a bad ruler.
There were also hints of Vergil being not quite right which Dante saw. Vergil made Kat erase the servers at risk to her life, let SWAT shoot her, let her be captured, refused to rescuse her from Mundus until Dante argued the trade, then endangered Kat's life by shooting Lilith. Vergil also hid in the shadows while he made his brother do all the dangerous work. So, I guess those would be some good hints to Dante that maybe his brother was not as good intentioned as he seemed.
Kat was human, and he treated her as if she was expendable, so I guess Dante thought that would be Vergil's attitude to humans once he ruled them. Even though Vergil said he would respect his 'subjects', he's almost being like Mundus who said that he was saving the humans from themselves and giving them order. Mundus and Vergil were quite the same by the end.
Then there are the event sof the DLC, Vergil's downfall, which show that behind his calm face, he's a twisted guy...maybe worse than Mundus by the end of the DLC.

It's doesn't matter had Dante reasons to not let Vergil rule or not. Because at that time, Vergil did clearly anything. He just say "path is clear for us to rule". One sentence is a ridiculous reason for fight to death. Logical ending would be something like "-Ok Dante, you get me wrong, lets go a explain you what i planed, soon." or they just go in different directions and only when Vergil make something Evil or somehow try to enslave people, Dante will have argument to kill him (or left big hole in his chest).

 

[MephistoCarnival]

Wait.. where did your preference sneak into the argument ?? i thought we were having a completely rational discussion about vergil's lack of character and his stupid actions.

I seriously don't have a clue where i'm hurting your preference in this but it seems like its hurting you pretty bad which i honestly don't care about either.Hmm let's have a recap to this argument shall we ?

Me: DMC hasn't been artistically consistent (Fact)
You:I liked DMC3's idea. It's a good reboot to DMC1 (Opinion)

Me: DmC&DMC1 both have great level designs and art direction DMC 3 sadly doesn't(Fact)
You:Actually DMC3 gave something more original compared to DMC1 in terms of level design&art direction(Opinion)

Me:Except for amazing gameplay DMC3 is a downgrade from DMC1 in every sense the story's writing is halfassed,the game's length is small,the level designing is bland and lackluster,no metal/creepy Soundtrack(Fact)
You: of course it's a fighting arena,hack n slash.And not everything is like that (Opinion)

Me:Vergil never tries to reason with dante like the calm&collected intellectual he always pretends to be(Fact)
You:He can't reason with Dante because Dante always gets in his way and pulls out his gun(Completely Wrong factually Vergil was the one to start the violence)

You:Vergil's selfish and arrogant at evil at times but shows some moments in which he isn't (Opinion)
Me: Did i miss a cutscene where Vergil actually doesn't act like a typical 2d villain ? (sarcasm because clearly there are no moments where he isn't selfish or arrogant)

Me:There's one long unexplained backstory of Dante&Vergil's feud never to be told which begs the question why should the player get invested vergil's character ? (Fact)
You:Not all villains are like this how you portray them,or on your taste,they just act in a way,and they often don't show compassion for the hero (equivocation fallacyit doesn't have anything to with the argument but rather than what you think about it)

Now you decide who has provided actual facts&insight in this argument ? you are the only one who seems to be highly opinionatedYou've seriously left the actual argument in the dumpster now :ermm: the argument was about "Why vergil doesn't have any redeemable qualities" not "Why vergil should care about his pesky stubborn brother" you're speaking from the perspective of vergil's character not the perspective of a person who's discussing on the forums about the character.

Very funny although i'd take that over simple *Grunt grunt* Gimme mah powah ! followed by more shonen melodrama B.S which adds nothing to his character.No you're terribly wrong a villain DOES need explanations as to why he's like that mundus had one because he was the Evil demon overlord who has a blood feud with dante so its perfectly understandable why dante&mundus are enemies.. and why exactly are Vergil&Dante so angry at each other to the point of killing each others ? If the Main villain isn't stronger and completely dominating the main character then the villain is an underdog just like loki. Mundus was presented as a God like entity who Dante has to defeat that alone made his character interesting.Not really actually Dante was just getting started after vergil stabbed him in the ground like a coward he wakes up like badass as if the real fight wasn't even started and actually forced vergil to retreat.Except he tried to politely REASON with Dante First... and he wasn't whining about nonsensical sense of honor and how demon heritage gives him boners.Actually it isn't both are subjective... Vergil just wants to rule and doesn't care whatever Dante does but dante doesn't agree and is obliged to stop him and that means Dante is equally selfish to want to kill his brother just because he doesn't like his idea of the world.. that's kinda hypocritical.
LOL I'm used to playing ball biting hard games since i was a 6 yr old and its against my gamer pride to choose "easy mode" in any game.

DMC 3 is hardly the "Hardest" in the franchise i find myself struggling with DMC 1's DMD mode more than DMC3's DMD mode simply because you have so many options on your hand styles,more camera angles,better controls and much much more diverse combat you can easily get an SSS rank if you can perfect Trickster style.

How are facts nonsensical ?DMC 3 has the shortest game length when compared to DMC4 which had both nero+dante sections and bigger levels.You've mostly just stated your opinion actually hardly addressing an unbiased critical view every level you've listed are arena like which are commonly found in many hack'n'slash games.

> Nevan's level is just one big stage what's "Amazing level designing" here ?
> Cube room is just an empty disco room amazing level design ?

The only level worth mentioning the prelude to HellGate one... and even then there are already many levels like that in DMC1.

Here :

Okay? I don't think people need to reason and to explain why they like the characters they like.
I can like the most evil villain I can find,or the most misunderstood,or the most arrogant one and I'll still like him because I don't know,I like certain something at them.
You can as well not to like him and I don't care.

AND your reply :

You like woobies plain&simple.

Tell me again who's the one who sneaked actual preferences in it? Still you.

I tried to explain my reasons with actual examples,comparisons,and analysis.
You know what you did?

Just made up dialogues by you and giving DmC Vergil as an example when it's clearly stated that this is about DMC3Vergil ,and to top it off, you also gave DMC1 as a better art direction and so on when clearly the discussion isn't about it.


Also,to add to the mediocrity of your arguments,you also say DMC3 has elements from DMC1.
Of course it is. Same franchise? But different fights,bosses,locations etc ?

What?
That is the biggest nonsense I've ever heard.
AGAIN, to prove that DMC3 also had good level design and art direction I gave examples and I explained.
To prove my answers.
Mine,in conclusion,had explanations and such compared to yours which were repetitive saying that how DMC1 had better art direction and such,repeating this to infinite without proving anything.
How about you give examples instead of making your own assumptions?

WHICH,leads to the fact that yours aren't a fact but your own preferences and assumptions

You didn't prove it with anything.

You clearly missed my point I've made in my previous post. DMC1 has good art direction,but so does DMC3.
DMC1 mostly takes place in a gothic castle while DMC3 changes the location and the design of the surroundings.
And this is a fact,you know why?
Because it's in the GAME.

I have the same love shared for DMC1 and I liked it's design,because it was one of my first games,but so is DMC3. AND also because it has my favourite Dante.



Again,who said DmC doesn't have an amazing level design?
Not me. I'd like you to quote me where I said it didn't have.

Also,why didn't you quote me where I said Vergil isn't a cliched villain? Hm,because I didn't say it.
More than this,I said he's selfish,arrogant and evil at times.
Which is right because his actions prove it.
And I stated that. Stop pretending I didn't.

You made a comparison to DmC Vergil and how he reasons with his brother.
Tell me who isn't sticking to the argument and the topic? You.
Yes,he doesn't have any redeemable qualities and I stated that. Your point again?


Let's transform Devil May Cry into a friendly family show. See? You're still adding your own preferences.
And I'd still take an evil and brutal twin over the other one. To respond to your question.

You clearly don't have any idea.
Villains aren't emotional and mentally stable people.They either need a reason as why they're like that,like a tragical event from their past,a personal traumatic experienc or no reason as why they're like that.They just want a certain something.
I think you can give a villain a motive and still have them be truly evil. Some good evil motives would be greed or thirst for power.And we also have villains who know they’re evil and relish it are also frightening. They need no motive, or else their motive is simply to do and be evil and that is all.
So yes, a villain can be very nasty and hateful and murderous and still have a motive—greed, pride, lust, etc.(power in Vergil's case)—but the really evil villains are the ones with no motive or the simple motive of evil, who know they’re evil and don’t care.The inhuman.
But see,Vergil,be it classic Vergil or DmC Vergil isn't the epytome of evilness.To prove it,Vergil in DMC didn't show any murderous behaviour near humans like Lady,but with Dante yes,because he knew that Dante is equal in powers with him,isn't human and can take a stand,at the same time he awakened his DT,and this doesn't mean he did something bad to him,he just enjoys a good fight and opponent.Vergil is more attached to his demon side and seeks power because that's what demons seek.That was his only goal. He didn't plan on destroying the human kind.He had a fixed goal and didn't need anything besides that,it was others who tried to stop him,so he reacted to that. A villain like thing.
Vergil in DmC isn't like this at first. He shows care,but at the same time he had a hidden intention which he thought that Dante might agree with it,he wasn't faking it.But this Vergil becomes more and more villain-like once he sees Dante doesn't share the same intention as him,he tries to fight him and kill him,and in the DLC he comes to hate his brother,and doesn't show compassion towards his mother,while old Vergil felt guilt towards the fact he couldn't protect his mother thus resulting in his hunger for power,a demon thing.While DmC Vergil felt weak because he isn't capable of being like his brother and feeling unloved,DMC Vergil felt guilt over the death of someone dear. Which isn't that different but only their personality has some non similar characteristics.

There,an analysis,not just personal assumptions.

Once again,that's your own personal opinion.
But DMC3 ranked in many tops as one of the hardest games ever. I also played DMC1 and is hard especially at the Nightmare boss,but that doesn't make DMC3 any less of a challenge.
Let's be less arrogant ok?

Hmm,and who cares if you play hard games since the age of six?:/

Empty disco room?Hmm,I wonder if you had anything like that in the previous games.Don't put your preferences over the facts.

Anyway,I don't feel like arguing more because I'm afraid this may have no end at all.

 

[Lionheart]

I never said communism is better than capitalism.

Then why say Dante = communism and Vergil = capitalism? It's been a day or two, so maybe I don't remember what your point was. If so, I apologize. Kind of late to the party, I know.

IMO, Capitalism too has a fair share of issues. The main goal behind capitalism is profit-making. It bothers me when anything and everything revolves around profit-making. Its no different than mundus where "the world is a factory farm of souls" that he uses to make profit.

That's how the world works, sorry to say. If society's main goal isn't to make money, we'd all be living in a ditch. Even communism is about making profit - perhaps even more so, at least as far as government is concerned.

Communism has a sense of equality and a society with less discrimination. But i don't prefer extreme communism where equality is forced in number of hours to watch TV(WTF!!!!).In a way, communism is against discrimination like nepotism which is accepted in capitalism.

Thats why i said i prefer a good mix of both.

Communism does not equal equality. In fact, it is quite discriminatory considering it's supposed to make everyone as equal as possible, even when the situation doesn't warrant it. Anyway, I've already given the points against it in my previous post, and I'm sure there are many more. Communism only comes in extremes. If not, it's not communism but socialism, which is why we don't have a communist party, but rather a socialist one. There's a reason western countries are predominantly capitalist.

Your arguments are opinionated as any.

Couldn't agree more. And I feel it's a bit stupid to argue that DMC3 had inferior level design because most stages were shaped like arenas. Like somebody else said, that's pretty much the point. That's how stages work optimally. I actually started playing DMC1 again, and the level design at the beginning just doesn't really work for me. It only makes camera angles get even more out of control than in DMC3, and it just feels awkward having to deal with corners and obstructions all the time. It doesn't add anything to the gameplay, while DMC3 sometimes allowed you to swing from poles, which is a gameplay feature that should be built upon in the next DMC.

So yeah, I agree with you on everything but the communism vs capitalism issue.

 

[Lionheart]

Anyway, this thread is about whether vergil is good or evil in DMC3, not whether or not he's selfish or whatever. I don't even know what's going on anymore in this thread. I see people responding to each other, but it's not clear which sentences were said by whom. This is a big mess, so can we get back to the topic and not let it spin out of control into very distantly related topics?

I already gave my views a number of pages back (I don't even know how many). Vergil is evil in DMC3. Doesn't matter how hurt he was by his parents' death. He's not an antihero like somebody said, because antiheroes are heroes (protagonists) who lack some or all positive character traits. Yeah, he helps Dante defeat Arkham, but not because he wants to save the day - not to be a hero. To protect Sparda's legacy and defeat all who want to defile his name/image. Blablabla, something something, you get the gist of it.

 

[ROCKMAN X]

It's cool if you like insults and nonsensical,pointless arguments.^_^

I love how you indirectly throw insults totally an ingenious way to avoid getting banned

No. Artistic can be subjective and does not need consistency.Certainly not a fact.

WTF are you kidding me ? artistic preferences are subjective but it is a certain FACT that DMC 3 largely differs from DMC1's creepy atmospheric gameplay and musicyou can't call that subjective.

I'm using Red&Black bold markers are the colors consistent ?

It has nothing to do with locations it has to do with the game designers and artistic direction it clearly wasn't made by "Team little devils" who designed the levels&concept art.

No. It's jus your opinion.

You know what ?? i'm getting sick of you,lionheart&mephistocarnival's NUH UH YEAH UH!

You can't call this a mature argument if you act like all act like irrational children who refuse to even consider anything?

Why even bother posting if you're just gonna go on one big tangent of blatant childish NUH UH NU UH !?

When exactly did our fully functioning brain devolve to such a primordial state ?? Since fanboism that when.

I'd take an 'awakening' story(both spiritual and physical) anyday over cloning(Trish).

How cute now you're just taking bits&pieces to make your extremely defensive argument look relevant.. fair enough,what does trish being clone of Dante's mom has to do with the overall progressive story ? at least DMC1's story has coherence and doesn't come off as halfassed.

Is it a good origins story ?? No it was halfassed and completely devoid of any proper writing it felt so cheap like :-

"Here you have Dante's Twin brother who is a rival of Dante because of a reason we don't care enough to show you so here you go idiots!"

"Here's a badass girl who can totally kickass but we do not care enough to actually give her any proper character growth we'll just force emotional moments in the ending somehow and expect fans to care about her"

"We have to write a younger Dante but we are seriously running out of any original writing skills.... wait i got an idea ! Let's just copy/paste shonen jump and call it a day! they'll love it!!

Your statements are no different from an opinion either.

Except i back it with facts and i try to have an objective discussion.

to discredit as not being metal is an opinion.

lol that was not the argument ! i thought you were accusing me of not having any "Facts" well that statement was pretty factual DMC1 has metal&ambient music DMC3 doesn't.

In Mission 19,Both are selfless acts

Lol wut ?? you're joking right ?? he joined forces with dante because he wanted to beat arkham for mutual benefit that's selfish.
in the end he was too proud&arrogant to accept defeat from Dante.. that's arrogant >_>lolz

DMC 3 is not called vergil's awakening. So player need not be invested in vergil's character at all.

What !? if that's how the ficiton works then great works of fiction would only have one character with dialog.

You're basically telling me that Vergil's lack of character,lack of any justifications for his actions,being a boring villain ALL Is forgivable just because he just looks cool and is the twin of dante??

Sorry... i simply disagree here i need more reasons than that to actually like a character/villain

Your arguments are opinionated as any.

I'm only trying be objective.. but somehow i manage to get everyone's panties rustled in that process.

Tell me again who's the one who sneaked actual preferences in it? Still you

i just said that you like woobie trope of characters.. that had NOTHING to do with my preference WTF are you talking about ? i have no idea.

Just made up dialogues by you and giving DmC Vergil as an example when it's clearly stated that this is about DMC3Vergil

Whoa that makes a whole lot of sense now !! i only gave a small of example how pathetically dumb vergil's actions are and how there are other much more logical non-retarded interesting ways the story could have went.

You can't dismiss my whole argument just because i used DmC's dante as a figure of speech !
In fact you have yet to prove me wrong in how exactly is vergil any good of character.

you also gave DMC1 as a better art direction and so on when clearly the discussion isn't about it

just now you were talking about communism... at least i was talking something related to DMC.

Of course it is. Same franchise? But different fights,bosses,locations etc ?

Good lord do you have 0% of clue of what you're talking about right now...

Just going by baby logic you can play the same game in 640X360 resolution... just like that DMC3 has less details in its level designs ON A PURELY A TECHNICAL LEVEL.. they're mostly just bland arenas with not much attention to level design

For ex:the Bedroom in DMC1 looks like an actual desolated bedroom it could have been a cheap arena for all we know.

to prove that DMC3 also had good level design and art direction I gave examples and I explained

and i also replied in simple English why your points are not credible enough.. and next reply i get from you is "your argument is rubbish"
Yeahhh... that's how mature people talk !

Mine,in conclusion,had explanations and such compared to yours which were repetitive saying that how DMC1 had better art direction and such,repeating this to infinite without proving anything

Well it is nice of you that you condone hypocrisy in such a pathetic fashion,again if what you said had even had 0.1% legitimacy you wouldn't be personally insulting me in the first place.

WHICH,leads to the fact that yours aren't a fact but your own preferences and assumptions

Yeah and to back that up all you have is butthurt,downright insulting replies.
You have indeed proven me so wrong sadly i mistook you for a person who can be reasoned with like an normal person now i'm just gonna press that cute little "Ignore button" and pretend like you don't exist.

 

[MephistoCarnival]

I don't care what you have to say anymore.
It's pretty obvious nobody can get to a decent conversation and our points of view differ considerably.
You have no arguments,no examples from the games,no character analysis. Just words and words and personal preferences and my tolerance and patience are running out.

Also,even if you bold your sentences or use different colors to point out your 'arguments' nobody would take it seriously.

I did that too,but you just got on my nerves with your stubborness.
I never got in a dispute with anyone else on this forum but sorry to say it, I have no reason why should I continue this meaningless conversation with someone that just insults other's people preferences,opinions etc calling theirs 'facts'. I could have easily discuss calmly and decently but it's in vain.

I never said communism is better than capitalism.

IMO, Capitalism too has a fair share of issues. The main goal behind capitalism is profit-making. It bothers me when anything and everything revolves around profit-making. Its no different than mundus where "the world is a factory farm of souls" that he uses to make profit.

Communism has a sense of equality and a society with less discrimination. But i don't prefer extreme communism where equality is forced in number of hours to watch TV(WTF!!!!).In a way, communism is against discrimination like nepotism which is accepted in capitalism.

Thats why i said i prefer a good mix of both.

Oh,I didn't say it's better,just that as a whole it doesn't do any good.

That annoys me too. Money control everything in our days and people are way too obssesed about it,without money you can't live but it's not good to let them take over your life,motivations, to blind you.
Yes,communism did some equality but that's a small part,they do more bad than good.

 

[EnJ]

That logic is awesome
Rockman, who is better Megadeth or Metallica?

 

[ROCKMAN X]

Rockman, who is better Megadeth or Metallica?

AC DC why the weird question anyway ?