How to bring Vergil back

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Freddy777;269761 said:
But I don't think that this phrase would have any grounds to stand on if Vergil was the last person in the world, b/c then what is he protecting himself from? Having all the power in the world would be pointless if there is no one to protect himself from.
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I think you'd be surprised by the crazy things people do. Since his mentality is irrationally formed, there's no reason to think it would become rational when faced with the bleak reality of the world without people. He would certainly come to realize that he had been wrong the entire time though, and realize that without anything to protect, power is useless.

Anyway, I've seen the idea before, and I think it is one of the more reasonable ones out there, given DMC4. But I think it would take an even bigger stretch to say that Vergil has been caring for someone and trying to protect them than just saying he had sex with some woman randomly. I don't know how this person he is caring for would lead to his return though.

I think you're on point with how Vergil should come back, but I don't think he should be as clearly good as Dante is. He still needs to be edgy and provide a catalyst for Dante to develop.
 
I don't think Vergil's desire to protect that someone will be the cause for him to return, but I do think it will be the reason for him to keep moving forward when he does return.
Anyways, I wonder if someone can help me on something. In the Beginning of DMC 3 when Dante defeats the Vanguard and sees Vergil at the top of Temen-i-gru he says that it has been a year since he last saw Vergil. What did he mean by that?
The only thing I know about DMC history are the games and the animated series. If someone knows what Dante meant, it could help me with an idea of how to bring Vergil back.
Yet didn't Dante say somewhere that he believed Vergil was dead the past 20 years. Is this a contradiction?
 
Freddy777;269766 said:
I don't think Vergil's desire to protect that someone will be the cause for him to return, but I do think it will be the reason for him to keep moving forward when he does return.
Anyways, I wonder if someone can help me on something. In the Beginning of DMC 3 when Dante defeats the Vanguard and sees Vergil at the top of Temen-i-gru he says that it has been a year since he last saw Vergil. What did he mean by that?
The only thing I know about DMC history are the games and the animated series. If someone knows what Dante meant, it could help me with an idea of how to bring Vergil back.
Yet didn't Dante say somewhere that he believed Vergil was dead the past 20 years. Is this a contradiction?
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There was a manga about what happened year before
here's a link to wikipedia article about it
 
Yeah, the manga takes place a year before the DMC 3 game and DMC 3 is also the prequel to DMC 1...not sure if you already knew this or not Freddy.
 
I knew DMC 3 was the prequel to DMC 1. It's alright. Its just that my knowledge of DMC History was limited to the games and the animated series.
 
I just have mixed feelings about the canons released for the series...

On topic: Vergil hates his human blood that runs in his veins, love is shown as a weakness in his eyes. When something precious is taken away, power most likely leads to a sense of security. If you can control the stage, predict what happens in the long run...you've nothing to fear or lose in the matter. (Nothing to lose other than your sense of dignity and pride).

The only twist I could see the reason in Vergil for returning is to finish off Dante or be given a second chance in life and "observe" Dante. Observe meaning, Vergil is learning to become partly human and understanding why Dante is as powerful as he is w/o using a lot of his demon powers. Unlikely theory but it could work...the only thing that stops it from happening is Nero, he is a type of "vessel" somehow. Again, I can be completely wrong but there is nothing bad about dreaming up impossible scenarios.
 
Faust, you are right on point again, as usual. This is how I envision Vergil returning. he would be more tempered, and perhaps less direct, but he key motivations would not change and his demeanor would be as cold as ever. I imagine he really is curious to see why Dante keeps defeating him even though he trains and amasses power.

Contrariwise, Vergil would provide an example for Dante of what happens if one gives into demonic power, and Vergil would act as a sort of guide when Dante's descent into darkness finally does happen (a la the Divine Comedy).
 
I've always had that in my mind. Their names are after all Dante and Vergil.
Now if Vergil is going to be in DMC 5 I'd make the game into a prequel/Sequel game, starting with Vergil's past leading up to DMC 3 story, then how Nero's past is related to Vergil, and finally Dante and Nero would meet up in Hell trying to recover Vergil's soul and in the process find his body so they can do some sort of resurrection with the help of an angel or God. (this is all concerning just Vergil. The game will be about Dante and Nero too. And the angel/God thing is related to what we are discussing in my thread about "how to bring the heavenly realm to DMC 5").
This can satisfy every Vergil lover, hopefully, b/c you'll be able to play Vergil in the prequel side of the game and Vergil returns to the series at the end of the sequel side of the game.
 
I think Capcom would do well to stick with the themes and tropes of the Comedy rather than going off on tangents like they tend to. Dante's descent into darkness or Hell would be an excellent way to do that.
 
moseslmpg;269876 said:
Contrariwise, Vergil would provide an example for Dante of what happens if one gives into demonic power, and Vergil would act as a sort of guide when Dante's descent into darkness finally does happen (a la the Divine Comedy).
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I think the first one already happened in DMC 1 and 3, but the second part can be used in DMC 5, since Dante went deeper and deeper into hell at the end of DMC 2.
 
Dante never got to see the aftermath of Vergil recovering from Nelo though. I mean after Vergil recovers, for Dante to see how demonic power has changed him.
 
moseslmpg;269938 said:
Dante never got to see the aftermath of Vergil recovering from Nelo though. I mean after Vergil recovers, for Dante to see how demonic power has changed him.
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I don't think that is necessary though. You don't have to look at the end result to know how it will end, jsut as you don't have to put your head in front of a car's wheel to know that will crush you. I believe Dante already knows that being influenced by demonic powers can lead to one's destruction. But if he wasn't convinced with how Vergil ended up, then he has other examples, such as Arkham in DMC 3 who went head over heels for demonic power and completely lost his humanity at the end before Lady closed his eyes for good. Or the corporate businessman boss in DMC 2, Arius, who wanted the demonic power of Argosax, but was then defeated by Dante and later Lucia. Or even the various human bad guys in DMC 4, like the mad scientist Agnus who wanted demonic power, but when Agnus was defeated by Dante he wanted to know what made humans so strong and special, yet never got to b/c he got shot in the head by Dante. Credo also desired to be an "Angel" through demonic powers. And the biggest loser, Sanctus, claimed himself to be a god b/c of the demonic powers, but we all know what happened to him.

But I would like to see what Vergil will do with his demon powers when he comes back.
 
Your analogy is not valid. My point is that Dante seeing Vergil as Nelo doesn't really afford any serious reflection, because there is so little of Vergil inside of Nelo. It is like the difference between seeing a criminal in the act and talking to them after they have repented and reformed and spent time in jail. Most times, you don't learn anything from the crime because there is no connection to the person, and indeed, one tries to distance oneself as far as possible from that person.

I submit that Dante does not know how indulging in demonic power could destroy him because he has not allowed himself to taste it. He knows that it is bad, but not how it corrupts. And in fact, there is really no necessary reason why demonic power would corrupt, and Sparda has shown that it can be controlled and harnessed for good.

As for those other examples, they were more villains than actual people anyone would care about. Arkham never realized the error of his ways, if indeed, he was wrong in his quest. Arius was just crazy. And the Order was simply misguided. A key point ehre is that all of them were taken down by Dante, not by their own submission to demonic power.
 
I guess i'm looking at this from a different point b/c what I was trying to point out is that Dante does know "how" demonic power corrupts a person. It influences their SELFISH ambitions. What did Vergil say: I need more power. Arkham wanted the power of Sparda. Arius wanted the power of Argosax. Agnus wanted demonic power to become a "perfect being". Credo wanted POWER to be an angel and "surpass man and demons". Sanctus wanted demonic power to become a "god". Demonic power corrupts b/c it plays on your evil desires, even if you have good intentions with wanting power, like Credo. Dante already knows how demonic powers corrupt. And since Dante has to "coexist" with his demonic powers, he constantly is aware of the danger. Yet, remember Agnus, he wanted to know why Dante always wins against stronger opponents then him. It's not b/c he is stronger, but b/c true power lies in loving another, essentially love. Not in seeking power for the sake of power, but in loving another and desiring to protect that loved one. That is what drove Sparda to do what he did. That is what drove Dante to defeat Mundus after seeing Trish die(at least that is what he believed)(Trish was a reflection of his mother Eva). That is what drove Dante in DMC 2 when he knew Lucia and defeated Argosax. That is what drove Dante to defeat Arkham and Vergil when he understood Lady's suffering and gained for the first time a greater purpose, not just to take revenge for his mother's death, but carry his father's legacy, which is to protect all humanity (remember "Father and family"). And finally that is what Dante proclaimed at the end of DMC 4: "LOVE". And that is what drove NERO to defeat the "Savior". For "Kyrieeeeee!!".
 
Sparda was a full demon, he knows the true extent of power...he was able to control it because he had a stong mind and will. Loving a human also showed him that. Those with broken wills or weak minds will crumble when a power far stronger than theirs are in their possession. Those of which will cause insanity or will be poorly misguided by power.

Anyways, as for Vergil. He has possibly has died after the Nelo incident at the end, but yet, isn't dead. All demons when they are killed are sealed back into Hell. Wouldn't the same go for Vergil as well? But the question of getting back though I think is the real issue at hand. If the game were to take after the DMC 2 ending, we'd be fighting a lot of bosses we'd encountered previously in the games...that including Vergil. If he is alive and sealed away in Hell, he couldn't just ask his brother for a favour of returning to the human realm since he tried to destroy it back in DMC 3. Unless he said a little something about Nero...then Dante would be like what connection do you have to the kid yada yada. I'm sure you can fill in the blanks.

Off topic: People have been saying that the Underworld and Hell are different dimensions...I believe they are they same but they are a multi-dimensions controlled by Demon Lords. Each realm has it's own Lord which creates bounderies for it, such as the plain it lives in (fire, water, jungle, tiny, large ect ect). Heck, even the realm itself could be a living thing and time can be considered different there.
 
Freddy777;269997 said:
I guess i'm looking at this from a different point b/c what I was trying to point out is that Dante does know "how" demonic power corrupts a person. It influences their SELFISH ambitions.
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I think you'll find that these selfish ambitions are already present, they are not influenced by demonic power, nor is selfishness exclusive to demons. It is not like Dante is some selfless monk who prays all day either.
What did Vergil say: I need more power. Arkham wanted the power of Sparda. Arius wanted the power of Argosax. Agnus wanted demonic power to become a "perfect being". Credo wanted POWER to be an angel and "surpass man and demons". Sanctus wanted demonic power to become a "god". Demonic power corrupts b/c it plays on your evil desires, even if you have good intentions with wanting power, like Credo.
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Vergil needed more power to protect something, in his mind. Arkham was probably responding to the vacancy of God's throne in guiding the world. Arius, I don't know. Credo's intentions were certainly not selfish though. None of those things are evil in and of themselves.
Dante already knows how demonic powers corrupt. And since Dante has to "coexist" with his demonic powers, he constantly is aware of the danger.
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That is my point, he knows that it does corrupt, but he doesn't know how ti will corrupt him, and so he always has to be on guard. But like all heroes and saviors, one day he will stumble and he will fall. And then he will learn of the corruption of power firsthand. Until then, he remains susceptible precisely because he avoids indulging himself, ans represses his demonic side (at least he did before DMC4).
Yet, remember Agnus, he wanted to know why Dante always wins against stronger opponents then him. It's not b/c he is stronger, but b/c true power lies in loving another, essentially love. Not in seeking power for the sake of power, but in loving another and desiring to protect that loved one. That is what drove Sparda to do what he did. That is what drove Dante to defeat Mundus after seeing Trish die(at least that is what he believed)(Trish was a reflection of his mother Eva). That is what drove Dante in DMC 2 when he knew Lucia and defeated Argosax. That is what drove Dante to defeat Arkham and Vergil when he understood Lady's suffering and gained for the first time a greater purpose, not just to take revenge for his mother's death, but carry his father's legacy, which is to protect all humanity (remember "Father and family"). And finally that is what Dante proclaimed at the end of DMC 4: "LOVE". And that is what drove NERO to defeat the "Savior". For "Kyrieeeeee!!".
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I don't doubt any of that, but again, it is precisely Dante's preoccupation with his humanity that renders him susceptible. Until he experiences it for himself he can't really appreciate the effect of it on him, but at least through interacting with someone who has lived through it, Vergil, he can come to understand it better.
 
Of course those selfish ambitions are already present in the person. What the demonic powers do is enhance those selfish ambitions to the point where the person under demonic influence no longer listens to reason and slowly loses his humanity. And when did I ever say that selfishness was exclusive to demons. Humans, if they choose to, can fall in their selfish desires without the help of demonic power.

"Vergil needed more power to protect something, in his mind"
So was my idea that Vergil was protecting someone possible to you then? Then again, you already answered that.

Again I'll say it, one doesn't need to experience something firsthand in order to know the outcome. He has already seen that experience in others and saw the outcome of it, especially in Vergil. Thus, Dante can avoid such trajedies. So his future fall is unnecessary.

But we can keep on arguing over details all we want, but we will have forgotten the topic of this thread "how to bring back Vergil"
 
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