How much of DMC's gameplay is in DmC?

[VineBigBoss]

Characters that focuses on command grabs/throws in fighting games are often refered as "grapplers". I think it could go both ways.

 

[Lionheart]

I think 'grapple', in games, has always referred to holding enemies and/or countering them, not throwing them per se. I've never heard it defined as a throw. On merriam-webster, the word even links to this: grapnel - ''a small anchor with usually four or five flukes used especially to recover a sunken object or to anchor a small boat''. The fact that a combatant that tries to throw people is called a grappler is sort of logical, since throwing comes after grappling.

Seems to me like the meaning is pretty clear: to struggle, hook, or hold fast.

And that should end that discussion.

 

[Chancey289]

I weep for the English language.

 

[Exejpgwmv]

The basis of DMC is all there, basically. But in order to make the gameplay more accessible, they had to make some sacrifices; i don't have much time, so i'll try to explain as better as i can with this time.

I'll compare mainly DmC and DMC4, but i'll do some commentary about DMC3 too:

First thing i would like to approach is how making aerial comboing easier (the way they've done it) reduces the latent potential in the aerial combo system in general, think about it: how they've made it easier for someone to JC constantly in DmC? Essentialy by reducing the possible outcomes and turning it in something with a more predictable line if it were to be graphed, and the main mechanics used or changed to accomplish this were the large hitboxes of juggled monsters, and the hitstun and juggle properties in enemy-step. This makes the system more "lenient", lets put this way: you have an X ammount of possible inputs that gives you an Y ammount of outcomes (like a function), if you make this function takes more of a constant form in a graphic, you're reducing the possible outcomes and making it easier to deal with and to understand it. Now, in DMC4, the system pushs this to the other way, and the main mechanic behind this that distances DMC4 from DmC and DMC3 is how inertia works in that game: aside from the standard properties of each attack, other variables appears when we talk about inertia and aerial combat, with the inertia system of DMC4, comes the unique values of some monsters as well as the different outcomes depending on what you input or even to the same input: Leg Scarecrows takes on different effects from inertia than Frosts or Mega Scarecrows, even if you use the same movements, creating a lot of different outcomes in the system. On DMC3, there's little to no use of inertia too (even if it's there, to some extent), but you can manage the position of the monster with JC because it will not juggle the monster as enemy-step do not causes large ammount of hitstun or juggle.

Resuming some of my personal opinion on this matter:

DmC

Strong points

- Acessible aerial combat, holds more appeal (talking purely about the systems) to newcomers and from people who never bothered to master the gameplay from the other games but wanted to make some stylish action.
- The system makes you confortable quicker with the outcomes of your inputs in aerial combat; it makes it more intuitive to think about your possibilities after juggling some monster.

Weak points

- Acessibility that comes by killing some possibilities, which helps to make the game shallow in this aspect
- Makes the game in general easier, as you low the barrier to land a full combo on most enemies

About ground combat in general, mainly lock-on, command moves and that dodge buttons that caused a lot of discussions around the community:

Pros

- Dedicated dodge buttons makes it easier to react to some incoming attack
- One button instead of command moves to launch is good to make a more "universal" and more intuitive control scheme
- Auto-lock simplifies the controls too, another good thing for newcomers.

Cons

- Dedicated dodge buttons waste buttons on the control scheme to add just a move to the game, even more if you have two of them.
- The gradual substitution of command moves for more simple inputs directly reduces the potential variety in your moveset
- Auto-lock in DmC is very flawed yet, and i don't think it fits too well a Devil May Cry game . A game with a good auto-lock system is Ninja Gaiden Sigma (i don't know if Black is identical); it's very responsive, it almost never fails in any way and it always respect the direction you moved your analog stick, but the whole game is designed to work with this system since the very first game; so it's kinda hard to compare because you have to take on count the design.

All in all, DmC looks foward to simplify the gameplay of DMC series; the tweaks in the mechanics is what makes it different from its predecessors, obviously following some design choices of his own. Fundamentally, you have a more intuitive and simple DMC game to dive in, but this tweaks ends by reducing your possibilities.

I'll try to address some other points later.

Although you are entitled to your opinion, I have a few problems with your argument.

1. How is the aerial combat shallow when the aerial combat in DmC has more moves and is more in Depth than in DMC3?
2. Enemies in DmC DO have varying amounts of inertia (i.e. The Tyrant).
3. "The gradual substitution of command moves for more simple inputs directly reduces the potential variety in your moveset" How so? Because thanks to the simple inputs you have more moves at any given time in DmC than in DMC3

 

[Exejpgwmv]

I think 'grapple', in games, has always referred to holding enemies and/or countering them, not throwing them per se. I've never heard it defined as a throw. On merriam-webster, the word even links to this: grapnel - ''a small anchor with usually four or five flukes used especially to recover a sunken object or to anchor a small boat''. The fact that a combatant that tries to throw people is called a grappler is sort of logical, since throwing comes after grappling.

Seems to me like the meaning is pretty clear: to struggle, hook, or hold fast.

And that should end that discussion.

You know I put a lot work and research into this thread so that people like VineBigBoss and Sam D could talk about the more indepth parts of DmC's combat. But now it has almost entirely de-evolved into constant posts about the meaning of the word grapple.

 

[Lionheart]

You know I put a lot work and research into this thread so that people like VineBigBoss and Sam D could talk about the more indepth parts of DmC's combat. But now it has almost entirely de-evolved into constant posts about the meaning of the word grapple.

I know, and I'm sorry, but that's why I said the discussion about the word 'grapple' should be finished now. So please, everyone, get back to talking about the in-depth parts of DmC's combat! The title of this thread is ''how much of DMC's gameplay is in DmC?'' Please discuss that.

 

[OppressedWriter]

The basis of DMC is all there, basically. But in order to make the gameplay more accessible, they had to make some sacrifices; i don't have much time, so i'll try to explain as better as i can with this time.

Man, you always bring up the same points and its so damn condecending. The thing is DmC is very much designed like a rhythm action game similar to the arkham city games. It's more about high scores and empowering the player to get creative, and not about annoying one frame counters and what not.

Watch this and tell me you can do these things with ease and that theres no creativity, you see that Dreamrunner combo, remember our discussion long time ago about how you there wasn't anyway to fight them in the air? Watch.
Also, tell me that tank drone and butcher combo aren't creative and show off the potential of DmC's combat.

Now to the rest of your arguments.

- About the overall ease of which you can jump cancel, again this is wrong, you can jump cancel two ways in DmC, with style and without style. The only way that is easier is the the one without style, because it looks sloppy as hell with Dante either jumping over the enemy or cancelling the attack before it even hits them. There is definitely a timing requirement that is similar to the older games if you want to jump cancel with style and not look like a noob while doing it.

- See, here's the thing the focus of DmC is about expressive combat, each level is like a canvass for Dante to paint with his powerful moveset. So, the penalty for sloppy cancelling is that your gameplay looks like ****, where as if you cancel with style and do it with proper timing, it actually looks good and stylish.

- About the command inputs, I'm tired of this bs argument, no moves have been lost that couldn't be brought back with the same control scheme. It's not about making noob friendly, it's about making the game have intuitive and modern controls, which DmC does brilliantly.

(Twoacross has some great ideas about the vast potential of extra moves that can easily be placed on the forward forward commands, one for gun + special ones with the angel and devil triggers.)

-The one button dodge is just better, again this is not a 2d plane, the biggest issue with fast paced action games is that the clunky dodge mechanics are nearly impossible to use seamlessly during combat. Even the beloved old DMC's everyone just spams Trickster(which lets be HONEST is a one button DODGE as well) because the evading is so clunky for both Nero and Dante otherwise. Hell, Nero's Tablehopper is damn near useless except for a few boss fights where it looks cool.

- The Autolock works fine when you realize dante has has a move for every situation he encounters, and that you can easily lock onto a target by centering the camera, something you couldn't do the vast majority of the time in the older games. Also, as long as you hold the stick in the general direction the auto aim works nearly 95% of the time.

- Speaking of buttons, what buttons were exactly wasted? As far I can tell every button is both necessary and useful on the controller. I mean just because they mapped two dodges doesn't mean you can't go in the input screen and map gunspecial to one of the shoulders, or maybe, in your case, you can try this putting center camera on the right shoulder, and then you won't have to worry about not having a lock on. Simply center the camera, all the time and voila, you'll have a lock on that is better than its ever been in the DMC series, it will always center on the enemy dante is both facing and targeting.

Again, what's so simple about the following scheme, its both intuitive and complex?

Dpaddown - Deviltrigger.

X - Light Attack

Y - Gunspecial

B - Heavy Attack

A - Jump

LB - Dodge

RB - Shoot

LT - Angel Mode

RT - Demon Mode

Left Stick - Toggle ranged target

Right Stick - Center Camera

Feel free to respond, and please watch the video and tell me you can tell me with a straight face that somehow the depth or flexiblity of Dante's combat options have been minimized.

 

[VineBigBoss]

Man, you always bring up the same points and its so damn condecending. The thing is DmC is very much designed like a rhythm action game similar to the arkham city games. It's more about high scores and empowering the player to get creative, and not about annoying one frame counters and what not.

Watch this and tell me you can do these things with ease and that theres no creativity, you see that Dreamrunner combo, remember our discussion long time ago about how you there wasn't anyway to fight them in the air? Watch.
Also, tell me that tank drone and butcher combo aren't creative and show off the potential of DmC's combat.

Now to the rest of your arguments.

- About the overall ease of which you can jump cancel, again this is wrong, you can jump cancel two ways in DmC, with style and without style. The only way that is easier is the the one without style, because it looks sloppy as hell with Dante either jumping over the enemy or cancelling the attack before it even hits them

= See, here's the thing the focus of DmC is about expressive combat, each level is like a canvass for Dante to paint with his powerful moveset. So, the penalty for sloppy cancelling is that your gameplay looks like ****, where as if you cancel with style and do it with proper timing, it actually looks good and not a sloppy mess. There is definitely a timing requirement that is similar to the older games if you want to jump cancel and not look like a noob while doing it.

- About the command inputs, I'm tired of this bs argument, no moves have been lost that couldn't be brought back with the same control scheme. It's not about making noob friendly, it's about making the game have intuitive and modern controls, which DmC does brilliantly.

(Twoacross has some great ideas about the vast potential of extra moves that can easily be placed on the forward forward commands, one for gun + special ones with the angel and devil triggers.)

-The one button dodge is just better, again this is not a 2d plane, the biggest issue with fast paced action games is that the clunky dodge mechanics are nearly impossible to use. Even the beloved old DMC's everyone just spams trickster because the evading is so clunky for both Nero and Dante otherwise. Hell, Nero's Tablehopper is damn near useless except for a few boss fights where it looks cool.

- The Autolock works fine when you realize dante has has a move for every situation he encounters, and that you can easily lock onto a target by centering the camera, something you couldn't do the vast majority of the time in the older games. Also, as long as you hold the stick in the general direction the auto aim works nearly 95% of the time.

- Speaking of buttons, what buttons were exactly wasted. As far I can tell every button is used on the DmC Controller, just because hey mapped two dodges doesn't mean you can't go in the input screen and map gunspecial or shoot to one of the shoulders, or maybe try this put the damn center camera on the right shoulder, and then you won't have to worry about not having a lock on. Simply center the camera as if it were lock on.

What's so simple and easier for newcomers? (again with the condescension)

Dpaddown - Deviltrigger.

X - Light Attack

Y - Gunspecial

B - Heavy Attack

A - Jump

LB - Dodge

RB - Shoot

LT - Angel Mode

RT - Demon Mode

Left Stick - Toggle ranged target

Right Stick - Center Camera

Feel free to respond, and please watch the video and tell me you can tell me with a straight face that somehow the depth or flexiblity of Dante's combat options have been minimized.

I barely have any contact with Batman games, so i dont know what this means.

- About the overall ease of which you can jump cancel, again this is wrong, you can jump cancel two ways in DmC, with style and without style. The only way that is easier is the the one without style, because it looks sloppy as hell with Dante either jumping over the enemy or cancelling the attack before it even hits them

I was talking about the game system, the ease to JC is just an example of this system. The whole point was to show HOW they've done it and what it brings to the game in general. "With style" or "without style" is irrelevant to this specific discussion.

- About the command inputs, I'm tired of this bs argument, no moves have been lost that couldn't be brought back with the same control scheme. It's not about making noob friendly, it's about making the game have intuitive and modern controls, which DmC does brilliantly.

Making "noob friendly" is quite the same thing than making "more intuitive", it's not like the old series commands are something cryptic and only some geniuses in the world can understand and use it. The devs themselves said that they wanted to make this game acessible to new players. And i agree that the commands are indeed intuitive for the most part (with the exception of foward - foward movements in a game without a proper lock-on), more intuitive than the older series. Well, the numbers of the movesets dont sum up in favor of your argument: NT Dante's moveset, even with 8 weapons at his disposal (including firearms) has 54 moves, while DMC4 Dante has 72 moves with 7 weapons at his disposal (counting Darkslayer as a weapon, even if it only has 4 moves).

-The one button dodge is just better, again this is not a 2d plane, the biggest issue with fast paced action games is that the clunky dodge mechanics are nearly impossible to use. Even the beloved old DMC's everyone just spams trickster because the evading is so clunky for both Nero and Dante otherwise. Hell, Nero's Tablehopper is damn near useless except for a few boss fights where it looks cool.

I disagree, i can use my rolls without much frustration; although i agree a one-button dodge is more reliable, i prefer that they leave buttons free to implement other mechanics instead of wasting buttons with basic maneuvers like dodging. That's the whole point why you have i-frames in all your movements with the jump button (jumps, backflips, rolls, tablehopper and even air hike)

- The Autolock works fine when you realize dante has has a move for every situation he encounters, and that you can easily lock onto a target by centering the camera, something you couldn't do the vast majority of the time in the older games. Also, as long as you hold the stick in the general direction the auto aim works nearly 95% of the time.

I've heard a lot of different feedback on this matter. I had problems with helm breakers going the wrong direction (mainly when i had enemies below me), drives and stingers frequently.

- Speaking of buttons, what buttons were exactly wasted. As far I can tell every button is used on the DmC Controller, just because hey mapped two dodges doesn't mean you can't go in the input screen and map gunspecial or shoot to one of the shoulders, or maybe try this put the damn center camera on the right shoulder, and then you won't have to worry about not having a lock on. Simply center the camera as if it were lock on.

The two dodges are self-explanatory, it's just a waste of buttons that you could use to implement another things into your game, one button for the dodge is more than sufficient. Now this is my opinion: in relation to a Devil May Cry game: it's unnecessary to have an exclusive dodge button, still, it's a design choice and will waste a button. There's nothing to do with customizing your inputs, you've got it all wrong. It's about killing the potential in your control scheme.

 

[Exejpgwmv]

Michellegun201 just found a very affective way of dealing with two rages at once via abusing the buffering mechanics of the game:

at 6:30

 

[Exejpgwmv]

I barely have any contact with Batman games, so i dont know what this means.



I was talking about the game system, the ease to JC is just an example of this system. The whole point was to show HOW they've done it and what it brings to the game in general. "With style" or "without style" is irrelevant to this specific discussion.



Making "noob friendly" is quite the same thing than making "more intuitive", it's not like the old series commands are something cryptic and only some geniuses in the world can understand and use it. The devs themselves said that they wanted to make this game acessible to new players. And i agree that the commands are indeed intuitive for the most part (with the exception of foward - foward movements in a game without a proper lock-on), more intuitive than the older series. Well, the numbers of the movesets dont sum up in favor of your argument: NT Dante's moveset, even with 8 weapons at his disposal (including firearms) has 54 moves, while DMC4 Dante has 72 moves with 7 weapons at his disposal (counting Darkslayer as a weapon, even if it only has 4 moves).



I disagree, i can use my rolls without much frustration; although i agree a one-button dodge is more reliable, i prefer that they leave buttons free to implement other mechanics instead of wasting buttons with basic maneuvers like dodging. That's the whole point why you have i-frames in all your movements with the jump button (jumps, backflips, rolls, tablehopper and even air hike)



I've heard a lot of different feedback on this matter. I had problems with helm breakers going the wrong direction (mainly when i had enemies below me), drives and stingers frequently.



The two dodges are self-explanatory, it's just a waste of buttons that you could use to implement another things into your game, one button for the dodge is more than sufficient. Now this is my opinion: in relation to a Devil May Cry game: it's unnecessary to have an exclusive dodge button, still, it's a design choice and will waste a button. There's nothing to do with customizing your inputs, you've got it all wrong. It's about killing the potential in your control scheme.

I think you two might argue each other into corner since this seems to be more a matter of opinion than facts.
Also, what would you define a "move" as exactly?
You probably should stop arguing about the auto lock on since it's very likely it's just that on your game the auto targeting is a bit janky and on his game it's damn near perfect.

 

[Tiran]

Man, you always bring up the same points and its so damn condecending. The thing is DmC is very much designed like a rhythm action game similar to the arkham city games. It's more about high scores and empowering the player to get creative, and not about annoying one frame counters and what not.

Watch this and tell me you can do these things with ease and that theres no creativity, you see that Dreamrunner combo, remember our discussion long time ago about how you there wasn't anyway to fight them in the air? Watch.
Also, tell me that tank drone and butcher combo aren't creative and show off the potential of DmC's combat.

Now to the rest of your arguments.

- About the overall ease of which you can jump cancel, again this is wrong, you can jump cancel two ways in DmC, with style and without style. The only way that is easier is the the one without style, because it looks sloppy as hell with Dante either jumping over the enemy or cancelling the attack before it even hits them. There is definitely a timing requirement that is similar to the older games if you want to jump cancel with style and not look like a noob while doing it.

- See, here's the thing the focus of DmC is about expressive combat, each level is like a canvass for Dante to paint with his powerful moveset. So, the penalty for sloppy cancelling is that your gameplay looks like ****, where as if you cancel with style and do it with proper timing, it actually looks good and stylish.

- About the command inputs, I'm tired of this bs argument, no moves have been lost that couldn't be brought back with the same control scheme. It's not about making noob friendly, it's about making the game have intuitive and modern controls, which DmC does brilliantly.

(Twoacross has some great ideas about the vast potential of extra moves that can easily be placed on the forward forward commands, one for gun + special ones with the angel and devil triggers.)

-The one button dodge is just better, again this is not a 2d plane, the biggest issue with fast paced action games is that the clunky dodge mechanics are nearly impossible to use seamlessly during combat. Even the beloved old DMC's everyone just spams Trickster(which lets be HONEST is a one button DODGE as well) because the evading is so clunky for both Nero and Dante otherwise. Hell, Nero's Tablehopper is damn near useless except for a few boss fights where it looks cool.

- The Autolock works fine when you realize dante has has a move for every situation he encounters, and that you can easily lock onto a target by centering the camera, something you couldn't do the vast majority of the time in the older games. Also, as long as you hold the stick in the general direction the auto aim works nearly 95% of the time.

- Speaking of buttons, what buttons were exactly wasted? As far I can tell every button is both necessary and useful on the controller. I mean just because they mapped two dodges doesn't mean you can't go in the input screen and map gunspecial to one of the shoulders, or maybe, in your case, you can try this putting center camera on the right shoulder, and then you won't have to worry about not having a lock on. Simply center the camera, all the time and voila, you'll have a lock on that is better than its ever been in the DMC series, it will always center on the enemy dante is both facing and targeting.

Again, what's so simple about the following scheme, its both intuitive and complex?

Dpaddown - Deviltrigger.

X - Light Attack

Y - Gunspecial

B - Heavy Attack

A - Jump

LB - Dodge

RB - Shoot

LT - Angel Mode

RT - Demon Mode

Left Stick - Toggle ranged target

Right Stick - Center Camera

Feel free to respond, and please watch the video and tell me you can tell me with a straight face that somehow the depth or flexiblity of Dante's combat options have been minimized.

I just... I... My god... I love you. I've been trying to explain this to people for almost a year now. If only you'd gone into how the current scheme where everything is available instantly instead of having to switch in and out of styles like in the useless "Style system" Scheme from previous games in detail. Regardless, I was eating when I read this and I was like...

 

[OppressedWriter]

Did you even read my post, or at least watch the video? I'd really like you to keep telling me the stuff you saw in that video is proof that the game lacks depth or has somehow become noob friendly.

Anyway, your arguments are pretty much validating my opinions.

- Every developer always says that their next title will be more accessible, that's like the basic PR talk, stop reading into things so literally. And, no, intuitive does not mean noob friendly, again please post your DmC videos of you doing all those stylish combos and then we'll talk about how its so easy and lacking depth.

-Also, DmC has a different design philosophy, it is honestly a game about expressing yourself through combat, so yes, JCING with style is the actual gameplay skill that is required. How is that not something that is relevant to the gameplay? You can jump cancel with style or you can't. DmC is about being stylish, every level looks great and has great aerial cams for a reason, they want you to try to be as creative as possible.

- About the dodges, again, how is this any different than not having all the buttons mapped for Nero? Most advanced players always remap certain buttons, this has been like a thing in THE DMC series since forever, so stop harping on this pointless little issue of having two buttons, which do similar things but not really that you can easily remap in the controls screen.

- The single dodge button is not JUST ONE command, it also doubles DmC's version of Trickster. It allows Aerial Dashes and ground dashes that have both a defensive and offensive purpose.

- DmC's double jump has invincibility frames as well and also doubles as a skystar glide in the air, without wasting a whole button on "style attacks".

The above two points pretty much showcase why you can't have your cake and eat it to about wasting buttons. The way DmC maps multiple functions to both the jumps and the dodge negates that its evade mapping is any less or more wasteful than any other game in the series.

- Lock on works extremely well, like 95% of the time, just trust me, the issues you are describing aren't issues at all. Dante will automatically target the highest priority threat if you do not continue to hold the direction of the enemy you're attacking.

Try this if you ever get a chance to play, learn the timings of enemy attacks in DmC, especially harpies and the aerial cherubs, when they do their bright as day tells before attacking if you generally try to aim for them you will always grab the right target.

The AI in DmC is focused around interrupting your combo flow, so the more aggressive you are the more they will look for openings in your strings and try to break them, ti is only when you play DmC like this that you realize how well designed and polished its combat system is. At its best, DmC's gameplay achieves an immensely satisfying rhythm, where the player is aggressively doing combos and performing last minute dodges.

- DmC streamlines and uses all the buttons again look at my control scheme, that is the standard scheme that anyone playing DmC on a high level uses.

 

[Chancey289]

Why don't people stop acting like DmC is some massive downgrade because it really isn't. Sure maybe there's a little nerfing (mainly when it comes to overall difficulty) but, it's still a very strong combat system that's head and shoulders above most hack n slashers out there and in recent years.

Still one of the stronger Devil May Cry titles.

 

[Chancey289]

Give me......
-the improvements on the control scheme DmC has as well as it's level design and advances it took with other aspects including the narrative
-The difficulty of DMC 3
-Some of the moves from DMC 4
-More of the spirit of DMC 1.

 

[MKH Spartan]

Sorry, but I think the lock-on in DmC sucks, it gets me hit so often because Dante pulls/overdrives etc the wrong opponent. It also means I cannot see the health of standard enemies.

Aerial combos are too damn easy, he has a billion options to keep his opponents in the air and most require almost no execution at all.

Also, the whole game needs a damn difficulty upgrade, it's too easy on DMD, it needs to be hard like DMC3/DMC1.

Overall, I like DmC much less than DMC1/3 or 4, as new Dante/Vergil act like dicks most of the game and the combat is too simplified for my liking. Also, most of the boss designs and battles are badly designed and too damn easy, what I loved about previous Devil May Cry games was cool and challenging boss fights, not boss fights that I could probably just mash buttons and win on DMD while looking at some ugly thing which came out of the toilet which uses the work "****" in every damn sentence. Whenever I fight that Succubus, I almost always mute my tv, it's too annoying otherwise with it's consistent swearing and stupid insults. HOWEVER, I will completely admit, DmC is LEAGUES better than that atrocity called DMC2, so yeah.....

 

[TWOxACROSS]

NT Dante's moveset, even with 8 weapons at his disposal (including firearms) has 54 moves, while DMC4 Dante has 72 moves with 7 weapons at his disposal (counting Darkslayer as a weapon, even if it only has 4 moves).

I would point out that some of those moves come from very gimmicky weapons, with equally odd inputs. Pandora requires the use of stick rotations, which is unprecedented, and works off of its own meter. Lucifer has several different pause combos and works oddly as a melee weapon. Royal Guard's Release uses a meter generated from blocking, too. These things are often lost on a considerable portion of the players because they're somewhat unorthodox compared to the rest of the weapons and how they control, with a common theme in their inputs.

Just sorta wanna throw that out there, that while there are indeed many more moves, some of them fall by the wayside for anyone who isn't a "pro" player. I think we often forget that for all the pros have done, a large portion of the DMC fanbase isn't near that level.

 

[Demi-fiend]

I think we often forget that for all the pros have done, a large portion of the DMC fanbase isn't near that level.

Yeah, but why bring up something that the fanbase would rather forget?

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Sorry, but I think the lock-on in DmC sucks, it gets me hit so often because Dante pulls/overdrives etc the wrong opponent. It also means I cannot see the health of standard enemies.

This would be because you need to use the Left Stick to override the subtle lock. It's pretty much similar to holding R1, except you can change it a bit easier.

Aerial combos are too damn easy, he has a billion options to keep his opponents in the air and most require almost no execution at all.

Is this really a bad thing? Is it really bad for aerial combat to have the same ease as ground combat? People seem to forget that Aerial Rave and Roulette Spin existed since DMC3 and DMC4. They expanded upon that. However, it's not like it's so incredibly easy, because enemies still fall if you don't keep them juggled, and with accounting for some enemies' weights, it's a different kind of challenge to ground combat.

I agree the difficulties could use some tweaking, and the enemies could telegraph a little less, but their AI is still clever. After watching Hells and scarecrows jump into my attacks I realized how stupid they were...where as the same almost never happens in DmC because their tactics are to flank and interrupt, not just get close and attack.

Whenever I fight that Succubus, I almost always mute my tv, it's too annoying otherwise with it's consistent swearing and stupid insults.

I would like to point out that this is a very narrative-oriented design, and one I think they pulled off flawlessly. Disregarding the battle (which I think is still pretty cool itself), making people think of Poison as some vile, atrocious character was exactly what they were going for. It's a demon bereft of manners, and it shows. I think people get a bit too hung up on remembering how "All the DMC bosses are so cooooool" and then they get to Poison and think "Ninja Theory thinks this is cool?" No, they don't obviously. When you craft characters, you oftentimes work on aspects that you yourself find uninteresting or even revolting.

Poison the succubus perfectly encompasses making a character so vile that it's impossible to like them

 

[TWOxACROSS]

I'd also implore people who make the statement "functions were lost because of wasted controller space" to remember that the Angel and Demon modifiers, at the cost of two buttons, potentially add the space of two controller's-worth of functions (minus the two for the mode triggers).

Just at the cost of the Angel Mode trigger we still have access to a Trickster's Air Trick (Angel Lift, essentially), Dash (Angel Evade) and Skystar (Angel Glide), Prop Shredder, Round Trip, Streak, and an uppercut with Payoff.

And most of those moves? They were normally on a proprietary Style button, which became Special Attack. Without adherence to the "Style" system, moves from Styles were placed elsewhere on the controller in much more intuitive ways - air combos now exist on the same button as ground combos, non-combo moves now exist on the non-combo Special Attack button, an evasive skill with more i-frames is on the evasion button, an aerial dash is now on the jump button which takes you to the air.

Even the Ophion grappling chain, which allows you to manipulate distances, is aligned with the button you use to make attacks from a distance. That one was a bit of a reach, but it was how I learned to easily remember it :tongue:

This is intuitive! It's a lot to take in, too, so it's not entirely nublet friendly. Maybe a little was lost, but what was made in its place can completely make up for it, and even while one or two things might be missing, so were some of things that NT could have done to continue to expand on it. There's potential given DmC's control scheme (or at least my version, which replaces L2's evade with Gun Special) to get everything from the classics on here in some way that isn't there already.

 

[Chancey289]

I would like to point out that this is a very narrative-oriented design, and one I think they pulled off flawlessly. Disregarding the battle (which I think is still pretty cool itself), making people think of Poison as some vile, atrocious character was exactly what they were going for. It's a demon bereft of manners, and it shows. I think people get a bit too hung up on remembering how "All the DMC bosses are so cooooool" and then they get to Poison and think "Ninja Theory thinks this is cool?" No, they don't obviously. When you craft characters, you oftentimes work on aspects that you yourself find uninteresting or even revolting.

Poison the succubus perfectly encompasses making a character so vile that it's impossible to like them

I like the part where Dante decks Poison going "Succubus, suck on this."

And in all honesty I think Poison doesn't really bother these people as much as they act like it does. Like we're all such strangers to swear words and content M rated games offer.