TWOxACROSS
Hot-blooded God of Guns
Still not getting it. No one cares about any throws, the whole point of Malik's use of the word grappling was about grabbing, which is, lo and behold, something different than a throw.
How much of DMC's gameplay is in DmC?
- Thread starter Exejpgwmv
- Start date
My last reply wasn't to malik.Malik isn't the only person replying to this thread. And so aren't you.
TWOxACROSS
Hot-blooded God of Guns
Yeah, I know it wasn't to Malik...I can see who you're replying to. My point is that you think that grappling is throwing, when they are two different parts of the same martial art. You're fighting so hard on this throwing thing when a) you're wrong, and b) it wasn't even part of the discussion to begin with. Even people just coming into the thread are telling you how grapple =/= throw.
Lrn2Nglsh
Lrn2Nglsh
Jus by shouting a lie 10 times out loud, it doesn't become the truth. I am using my forum space given to me to reply to anyone i want to. If you were confident that i have indeed offended anyone or have been trolling here(which you have been), You should have officially raised a report. And yet, here you are, Mouthing off. Don't you have a hobby????
TWOxACROSS
Hot-blooded God of Guns
I haven't been lying. I, along with...well...everyone else in this thread, have been the ones telling you you're wrong, because you are, because of all the reasons we stated, yet you refuse to admit it. You refuse to admit it so much so that now you're deflecting the argument by accusing me of being concerned about offenses and trolling.
I'm seriously wondering if you're touched in the head, aoshi. Nowhere have I said anything about anyone being offended or anyone trolling (which I am most certainly not).
I'm not reporting you because you've not committed an offense to report, you're just being unbelievably stubborn.
And of course I have a hobby - I just don't have the faculties to sit down and just start writing another book right this moment. Wait...that's not just a hobby...it's also my job, does that still count?
I'm seriously wondering if you're touched in the head, aoshi. Nowhere have I said anything about anyone being offended or anyone trolling (which I am most certainly not).
I'm not reporting you because you've not committed an offense to report, you're just being unbelievably stubborn.
And of course I have a hobby - I just don't have the faculties to sit down and just start writing another book right this moment. Wait...that's not just a hobby...it's also my job, does that still count?
Tsk, Tsk, Tsk
You know i don't have to agree with anyone unless i need to and in this case, i certainly don't. Sue me.
TWOxACROSS
Hot-blooded God of Guns
Oh hey, there was that. Whoops. Guess I cared so little I forgot about it.
However, it is totally your right to not agree with people, but do realize that you were wrong, and by refusing to accept that it doesn't cast you in the greatest of light.
However, it is totally your right to not agree with people, but do realize that you were wrong, and by refusing to accept that it doesn't cast you in the greatest of light.
MKH Spartan
Well-known Member
My take on the matter:
Grappling = Grappling hook/gun/that hook you shoot at **** to then climb up etc
Grabbing/Throwing/Grabs/Throws = The same thing, it's interchangeable in how I use it, which is in the Soul Calibur series, where throws/grabs are the same thing. I don't read up on the "technicalities" however, of the exact definition of a throw.
Grappling = Grappling hook/gun/that hook you shoot at **** to then climb up etc
Grabbing/Throwing/Grabs/Throws = The same thing, it's interchangeable in how I use it, which is in the Soul Calibur series, where throws/grabs are the same thing. I don't read up on the "technicalities" however, of the exact definition of a throw.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grappling
Honestly, i can't find a wiki source with that spelling and meaning. Its normal connotation is combat/struggle. In most fighting games, i find a throw move under grapple category. Hence i see them interchangeable.
EllDawn
Well-known Member
In that case, neither is WWE. Their moves are meant to be entertaining, not actually portray fighting. That doesn't lessen the danger, or injuries, but if you listen to Steve Austin he says it himself that it's meant to be entertainment more than anything.
Ofcourse, WWE isn't real fight but terminology they use for throw kinda move is also grapple. They don't term it any different.
In SF kinda games, throw does not go through a grapple phase as in wrestling but is a technical counter to blocking opponent since a grapple/throw cannot be blocked as regular strike attacks.Similarly, Nero buster cannot be blocked with royal-guard. Such throws can be loosely called as grapples. Jus like in WWE which is primarily about grapples. I jus don't buy the argument that 'grapple' is entirely different from a throw. All i am saying is they are interchangeable contexts(probably loosely speaking and not any other literal connotation).
OppressedWriter
SamD
Staying on topic, in terms of improvements, the qualities I particularly love about demon dodge and angel dodge/dash is how they effectively combine elements of royal guard, trickster, neros tablehopper, and also player evades into a single button modified by the triggers.
-You can slowly demon dodge to get the slo-mo + damage buff, and then angel dodge back in place, which gives both a damage boost, and time dilation/speed boost.
-I also like that angel dodge doubles as an offensive trickster that can be used to perform inertia, hover launches on the ground, and other neat combo tricks.
I know it is often stated that Demon Dodge is DmC's equivalent to Royal Guard, while I agree to some extent, I think the just charge punch of ERYX is a better comparison. If you notice Dante, Stands perfectly still when you charge up a default eryx punch, and if you release it at the right time when an enemy attacks Dante will "Just release" parry the attack back towards the enemy.
P.S.
Also, before I forget, DmC's one button dodge, which is purely timing based for 90% of attacks is an amazing improvement, I hope to god we never see a three button dodge input ever again in a fast paced hack and slash game.
Some clear examples of retained depth in DmC
-You can slowly demon dodge to get the slo-mo + damage buff, and then angel dodge back in place, which gives both a damage boost, and time dilation/speed boost.
-I also like that angel dodge doubles as an offensive trickster that can be used to perform inertia, hover launches on the ground, and other neat combo tricks.
On a side note about Demon Dodge
I know it is often stated that Demon Dodge is DmC's equivalent to Royal Guard, while I agree to some extent, I think the just charge punch of ERYX is a better comparison. If you notice Dante, Stands perfectly still when you charge up a default eryx punch, and if you release it at the right time when an enemy attacks Dante will "Just release" parry the attack back towards the enemy.
P.S.
Also, before I forget, DmC's one button dodge, which is purely timing based for 90% of attacks is an amazing improvement, I hope to god we never see a three button dodge input ever again in a fast paced hack and slash game.
AcidX_Y
Well-known Member
Grappling at its base means to control or manipulate using force. If your going to use fighting games as an example then look at "throws" in Tekken, a lot of them are just small strike combinations. Even some of Nero's DT throws are just pummelling bosses with strikes. DmC Dante doesn't have any throws but he has some grappling (albeit minor) with the demon pull.
But characters like king and zangief(Street fighter) use more than jus strike combinations. With cannon fodder enemies like scarecrows, assaults,bassilisk and even angelos and frosts, Buster isn't jus a combination of strikes. Considering size difference between nero and bosses, Buster on bosses with strike combinations seems fair. But berial and agnus do get slam dunked.
But , Yeah, I agree DmC has very less grappling compared to DMC 4.
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AcidX_Y
Well-known Member
I'm agreeing with you but the use of throws in most fighting games isn't correct, a more accurate word would be a grab. Unless a character has a grappling based style a majority of their throws are strikes after a grab animation. DmC Dante has grappling but it's not comparable to what Nero could do.
This.
But functionally, a throw is a counter to a blocking enemy to gain leverage over block and throw cannot be blocked as normal strike combinations(going by fighting games like Tekken, SF, Marvel vs capcom 3). It probably is a combination of strikes considering their style of combat. For eg:Ryu and ken are physically strong and a throw isn't a combination strike but a throw. But with characters like sakura, its understandable if a throw is jus a combination of strikes. (Considering size and physical strength)
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Exejpgwmv
Well-known Member
- I was comparing DmC's grapple mechanics to dmc 4's. Not every thing Nero's arm could.
- Are you seriously still trying to convince people that grapple or grappling means exclusively to throw?
Exejpgwmv
Well-known Member
Thanks for the input but I think I'm missing some mechsnics for the list. I'll update it later.
VineBigBoss
GGXRD <3
The basis of DMC is all there, basically. But in order to make the gameplay more accessible, they had to make some sacrifices; i don't have much time, so i'll try to explain as better as i can with this time.
I'll compare mainly DmC and DMC4, but i'll do some commentary about DMC3 too:
First thing i would like to approach is how making aerial comboing easier (the way they've done it) reduces the latent potential in the aerial combo system in general, think about it: how they've made it easier for someone to JC constantly in DmC? Essentialy by reducing the possible outcomes and turning it in something with a more predictable line if it were to be graphed, and the main mechanics used or changed to accomplish this were the large hitboxes of juggled monsters, and the hitstun and juggle properties in enemy-step. This makes the system more "lenient", lets put this way: you have an X ammount of possible inputs that gives you an Y ammount of outcomes (like a function), if you make this function takes more of a constant form in a graphic, you're reducing the possible outcomes and making it easier to deal with and to understand it. Now, in DMC4, the system pushs this to the other way, and the main mechanic behind this that distances DMC4 from DmC and DMC3 is how inertia works in that game: aside from the standard properties of each attack, other variables appears when we talk about inertia and aerial combat, with the inertia system of DMC4, comes the unique values of some monsters as well as the different outcomes depending on what you input or even to the same input: Leg Scarecrows takes on different effects from inertia than Frosts or Mega Scarecrows, even if you use the same movements, creating a lot of different outcomes in the system. On DMC3, there's little to no use of inertia too (even if it's there, to some extent), but you can manage the position of the monster with JC because it will not juggle the monster as enemy-step do not causes large ammount of hitstun or juggle.
Resuming some of my personal opinion on this matter:
DmC
Strong points
- Acessible aerial combat, holds more appeal (talking purely about the systems) to newcomers and from people who never bothered to master the gameplay from the other games but wanted to make some stylish action.
- The system makes you confortable quicker with the outcomes of your inputs in aerial combat; it makes it more intuitive to think about your possibilities after juggling some monster.
Weak points
- Acessibility that comes by killing some possibilities, which helps to make the game shallow in this aspect
- Makes the game in general easier, as you low the barrier to land a full combo on most enemies
About ground combat in general, mainly lock-on, command moves and that dodge buttons that caused a lot of discussions around the community:
Pros
- Dedicated dodge buttons makes it easier to react to some incoming attack
- One button instead of command moves to launch is good to make a more "universal" and more intuitive control scheme
- Auto-lock simplifies the controls too, another good thing for newcomers.
Cons
- Dedicated dodge buttons waste buttons on the control scheme to add just a move to the game, even more if you have two of them.
- The gradual substitution of command moves for more simple inputs directly reduces the potential variety in your moveset
- Auto-lock in DmC is very flawed yet, and i don't think it fits too well a Devil May Cry game . A game with a good auto-lock system is Ninja Gaiden Sigma (i don't know if Black is identical); it's very responsive, it almost never fails in any way and it always respect the direction you moved your analog stick, but the whole game is designed to work with this system since the very first game; so it's kinda hard to compare because you have to take on count the design.
All in all, DmC looks foward to simplify the gameplay of DMC series; the tweaks in the mechanics is what makes it different from its predecessors, obviously following some design choices of his own. Fundamentally, you have a more intuitive and simple DMC game to dive in, but this tweaks ends by reducing your possibilities.
I'll try to address some other points later.
I'll compare mainly DmC and DMC4, but i'll do some commentary about DMC3 too:
First thing i would like to approach is how making aerial comboing easier (the way they've done it) reduces the latent potential in the aerial combo system in general, think about it: how they've made it easier for someone to JC constantly in DmC? Essentialy by reducing the possible outcomes and turning it in something with a more predictable line if it were to be graphed, and the main mechanics used or changed to accomplish this were the large hitboxes of juggled monsters, and the hitstun and juggle properties in enemy-step. This makes the system more "lenient", lets put this way: you have an X ammount of possible inputs that gives you an Y ammount of outcomes (like a function), if you make this function takes more of a constant form in a graphic, you're reducing the possible outcomes and making it easier to deal with and to understand it. Now, in DMC4, the system pushs this to the other way, and the main mechanic behind this that distances DMC4 from DmC and DMC3 is how inertia works in that game: aside from the standard properties of each attack, other variables appears when we talk about inertia and aerial combat, with the inertia system of DMC4, comes the unique values of some monsters as well as the different outcomes depending on what you input or even to the same input: Leg Scarecrows takes on different effects from inertia than Frosts or Mega Scarecrows, even if you use the same movements, creating a lot of different outcomes in the system. On DMC3, there's little to no use of inertia too (even if it's there, to some extent), but you can manage the position of the monster with JC because it will not juggle the monster as enemy-step do not causes large ammount of hitstun or juggle.
Resuming some of my personal opinion on this matter:
DmC
Strong points
- Acessible aerial combat, holds more appeal (talking purely about the systems) to newcomers and from people who never bothered to master the gameplay from the other games but wanted to make some stylish action.
- The system makes you confortable quicker with the outcomes of your inputs in aerial combat; it makes it more intuitive to think about your possibilities after juggling some monster.
Weak points
- Acessibility that comes by killing some possibilities, which helps to make the game shallow in this aspect
- Makes the game in general easier, as you low the barrier to land a full combo on most enemies
About ground combat in general, mainly lock-on, command moves and that dodge buttons that caused a lot of discussions around the community:
Pros
- Dedicated dodge buttons makes it easier to react to some incoming attack
- One button instead of command moves to launch is good to make a more "universal" and more intuitive control scheme
- Auto-lock simplifies the controls too, another good thing for newcomers.
Cons
- Dedicated dodge buttons waste buttons on the control scheme to add just a move to the game, even more if you have two of them.
- The gradual substitution of command moves for more simple inputs directly reduces the potential variety in your moveset
- Auto-lock in DmC is very flawed yet, and i don't think it fits too well a Devil May Cry game . A game with a good auto-lock system is Ninja Gaiden Sigma (i don't know if Black is identical); it's very responsive, it almost never fails in any way and it always respect the direction you moved your analog stick, but the whole game is designed to work with this system since the very first game; so it's kinda hard to compare because you have to take on count the design.
All in all, DmC looks foward to simplify the gameplay of DMC series; the tweaks in the mechanics is what makes it different from its predecessors, obviously following some design choices of his own. Fundamentally, you have a more intuitive and simple DMC game to dive in, but this tweaks ends by reducing your possibilities.
I'll try to address some other points later.
EllDawn
Well-known Member
WWE actually focuses more on punches, kicks, tackles, flying, throwing (which a grapple can lead into). I'm going by the wrestling I saw on TV, not the video games. Video games tend to use terms that don't belong at times. I don't think even J.R. or Lawler called a throw a grapple, or vice versa. J.R. just retired after many years of announcing, and Lawler is still going as far as I know.