How can this combat system be expanded?

[Innsmouth]

In fact, that's exactly what it should be. Like in the Wonderful 101, you can reflect lasers with the sword morph, and blunt attack with Unite Guts. Nero's different arm forms could be capable of countering different types of attacks. I like it.

That was exactly what I meant Hopefully Capcom takes a notice

 

[Chancey289]

While I'd prefer styles to just get out of the picture, if they stayed then I'd at least like a better control scheme incorporated. I'd still want the D-Pad to give access to all the weapons like the latest game, so maybe the trigger buttons to cycle through might be easier. Or just a button kinda like switching styles with Shulk in Super Smash Bros. 4. You kinda just memorize in your head eventually how many times to hit a button to use a particular perk.

Also, some styles can just be reworked in general or maybe just make way for new ones because I also just want a dedicated block and or dodge inputs. I shouldn't have to switch to a style to do certain things like that.

 

[Demi-fiend]

I shouldn't have to switch to a style to do certain things like that.

Too true there, friend.

 

[Goldsickle]

That's what made playing as Nero more fun than Dante, to be honest.

All his moves are crammed and readily-available without the need to change modes (with the exception of Devil Trigger abilities).
Nero has both an aerial slash combo and a downward strike available with different commands.
Nero even has an aerial Streak. Not even Dante had an aerial Stinger.

For Dante, you need to have Swordmaster Style switched on for the air combo with Rebellion and a bunch of other moves.
Not too much of a problem in DMC4 but stupidly limited in DMC3.

If they could find a way to regulate Dante's moves without any "mode-change", they should just do away with the Styles format.

At some point, the Styles format felt like it's just filling the spaces, no matter how redundant.
Do you need two different type of charging rising punch attack for Gilgamesh?
DmC did the right thing of just cramming both moves into one (Uppercut).

And then there are the more gimmicky ones like Backslide.
The move needs two enemies to work. Lock on to one and make sure another enemy you're not locked on just happen to be behind you.

And that's the thing with the Styles format.
Sure you can potentially have more spaces to fill in more moves but if you're gonna end up with redundant stuff, what's the point?

 

[Foxtrot94]

That's what made playing as Nero more fun than Dante, to be honest.

All his moves are crammed and readily-available without the need to change modes.

And in fact he's way more limited than Dante in combat. That's what you get when you remove Styles :/
Happened in DmC too, even though Dante there is way more complete than Nero, cause he's got more weapons.

Sure you can potentially have more spaces to fill in more moves but if you're gonna end up with redundant stuff, what's the point?

Then they just have to come up with new moves for the Styles and replace those few redundant ones. Nice suggestion indeed.

 

[Demi-fiend]

Dante should have more compacted moves like Nero while Nero himself should have a few more expanded moves like Dant.

[With the addition of new weapons for Nero, I mean -- there was no need for any styles at all, since that only complicates things.]

All we need are some Nero-inspired, compacted movesets and everything's fixed.

And that's the thing with the Styles format.
Sure you can potentially have more spaces to fill in more moves but if you're gonna end up with redundant stuff, what's the point?

This, basically. Nero pretty much did everything Dante needed to do, only without the unnecessarily-padded tools that only get end up getting in the way for anyone who's not an expert player, when all is said and done.

Showdown = Dance Macabre

Maximum Bet = Overdrive

DT'd Charged Shot 3 = Epidemic + Multi-lock [Artemis Gunslinger move]

Perfect "Boss" Buster = Royal Release [Selective Counterattack -- works on some bosses only.]

http://devilmaycry.wikia.com/wiki/Buster

Hell Bound = Air Trick

http://devilmaycry.wikia.com/wiki/Devil_Bringer

Snatch = Grapple [Kalina Ann Gunslinger Move]

Table Hopper = Royalguard + Trickster

Excalibur = Skystar + Aerial Rave [Jump Cancel Buffer Combo]

Max-Act = Devil Trigger Distortion [I say this because I think Dante should have his own dedicated button for this as well, instead of forcing it into his DT repertoire.]

http://devilmaycry.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Queen#Exceed

http://devilmaycry.wikia.com/wiki/Just_Combo

 

[Foxtrot94]

@Vergilius some comparisons u made are pretty forced, man. And as I said, no Styles and compacted moves = limitations in combat and repetitiveness.

We're supposed to expand on DMC4 not tone it down like that. That's such a step backwards. This thread is supposed to make steps forward in combat depth. I like Chancey's crafting idea and adding a Style to Nero, that is what adds depth let's come up with that kind of ideas.

 

[scionicspectre]

I think you'd have to get pretty ingenious with the control scheme (or add some buttons to the controller itself) to squeeze any more commands out of it than you have in DMC 4. One idea I have from a combat system I designed is to switch between two firearms and two devil arms with the shoulder buttons (like in DMC 3) but to open a radial menu when the button is held to change which weapon is in that 'slot'. This would, of course, require you to pause or slow down the game to integrate it well (like signs in the Witcher games). There should still be an option to simply toggle through each of the weapons in order if you like, but that might not be as comfortable to play. Either way, this 'solves' the problem of not having more than three weapons of each type.

Also, the DMC 3 style switcher mod had a decent implementation to switch between Quicksilver and Doppleganger in addition to the existing 4 styles (double down is Doppleganger, double anything else is Quicksilver). Again, this is a bit cludgy, but it gives you some options.

I think the real issue is to find clever ways to make better use of the controller. DmC did this well, while simplifying the system a bit. The key is to find a way to better use the controller without taking away any functionality. Honestly, it probably took them quite some time to figure this out while developing DMC 4, so it's difficult to come up with a quick answer. I think the better question is what actions are essential for creative combat so you can prioritize that playflow.

 

[Goldsickle]

And in fact he's way more limited than Dante in combat.

The fact that I could complete the Nero's DMD chapters and Bloody Palace with S ranks shows that extra moves are unnecessary.


People need to remember that the very reason for DMC's control scheme is due to its origin as a Resident Evil game.
And in "Survival Horror" games, it's very typical to have the shoulders as a "draw weapon" or "combat stance" button and every basic maneuver always requires you to keep those button held down first (while you walk slowly).

While trying to expand on the system, all they did was just clutter things up with all the Styles and whatnot.

DmC is where the game's combat system is finally getting its much-needed revamping.

Whether they go for DmC2 or DMC5, I hope they continue with the control restructuring and hopefully, there will also be DmC formatting (like lock-on while running) in the Special Edition of DMC4.

 

[Foxtrot94]

Wut? What ranks have to do with this? What matters is variety in moveset in order to have as many possibilities as possible to pull off a wide variety of combos as possible, and visual stylishness not always results in high style rank. But visual stylishness is what really matters. I can very well pull off an SSS rank without looking that stylish, just repeating a move pattern, like I do with combat adjudicators for example.

With Dante, u can do A LOT more than u can with Nero, thx to the number of moves he has, and since DMC is all about visual spectacle in combat, yes, those moves are necessary to pull off a really stylish show. The more the moves at ur disposal, the more the possibilities to pull off spectacular stuff. And that's what I want from a DMC game.

In DmC, while I was enjoying the combat, I felt so restricted in what I could do in comparison to DMC4. Same with the other DMCs. So, much needed revamping? Maybe but if it comes for that price, it's a no thanks for me, even though I already said I would like to see some things from DmC in DMC.

 

[Goldsickle]

Wut? What ranks have to do with this?

The point is that there's enough in Nero's arsenal to complete the game with high scores and even combo variety.
Nero's Devil Bringer moves makes up for what he "lacks" from Dante's variety.

All the old format had going for it is "more moves possible!" but at the cost of being clunky, a little inefficient and wound up having redundant moves to fill in the blanks.

Weighing the pros and cons, I'd sacrifice the extra "slots" for moves to get a more functional combat mechanic.

 

[Foxtrot94]

Nero's combo variety, unfortunately, is not that great. He reaches repetitiveness pretty fast compared to Dante. And no, DB moves are too few to make up for Dante's stuff.
Repetitiveness is the cost of not having the Style system, and I don't want that in a DMC game.

Besides, I didn't find Style switching to be clunky when I first played DMC4. Yeah a bit difficult to manage at first coz u need quick fingers but that's part of the skill required to pull off the most cool looking stuff, and those two things, skill and stylishness, are the pillars a Devil May Cry game is based on.

No, I wouldn't take out Styles. Rather, as pointed out earlier, I would improve on it by eliminating those few redundant moves and replacing them with new ones.

In this regard, the question is, what kind of moves should be added?

 

[Goldsickle]

And no, DB moves are too few to make up for Dante's stuff.

The usefulness of maneuvers are not in the numbers but how functional it is.
The DB actually has multiple uses, like drag your enemies to you, break guards, quickly maneuvering behind enemies and using enemies as a shield or even using one enemy to damage another.

You can go on about Dante's "variety" or "more moves" but it doesn't topple Nero's smaller but more functional arsenal.

At some point, Dante's "larger arsenal" borders on redundant or gimmicky, like how all his charged shots are just more powerful versions of the regular shorts (in DMC1, Charged Shot actually knocks enemies off their feet), how he has two rising uppercuts for Gilgamesh, useless moves like Backslide and how Gunstinger is just a "Stinger with a shotgun" when it could have been a totally different move.

In this regard, the question is, what kind of moves should be added?

Ask someone else.

I vote for the Style system to be abolished.

 

[Foxtrot94]

Dante's strength is how you combine the moves together to create the spectacle.

For example, with Dante u can fly across the whole map teleporting and punish enemies with a barrage of attacks, and keep teleporting. Useful to avoid attacks but keeping the offense at the same time. You can't with Nero.

Nero does have those neat features, and those should be kept of course, but add to them in order to decrease repetitiveness.
As for Dante, the redundancy problem with certain moves can easily be adjusted by simply replacing them.

Other than that, it's clear we want different things from combat, but seeing how Styles add depth, strategy and more stylish combos possibilities, and since Devil May Cry is all about that, I want them to stay. Let's drop this argument coz it's going in circle.

Now let's get a bit more on topic and let's continue with posting our original ideas on how to EXPAND on DMC4's combat system. Let's keep up with the good ideas people posted at the beginning.

Oh, and "Ask someone else"... what is that supposed to mean? I wasn't talking to you specifically there, Goldsickle. This thread is for everybody to post, you know.

 

[absolitude]

- more weapons
- you can carry all the weapons at the same time
- no style switching, i dont care if it serves as a challenge, but it feels like i'm playing a robot who has modes
- more responsive and precise input, maybe it's just me but i feel like i have to press them buttons deeper and stronger to make it do as i want
- i dont mind the fixed camera, just they need to do something about the directional input, maybe it's just me also, but most of the times, i'm confused of where i am facing, but it's necessary to see how the manual lock-on on DmC behaves, if it works better than in 4, why not expand it from there
- more weapons for Nero, innsmouth has great idea for the devil bringer, i think the weapons should be applied to it, thus making it indeed a special attribute for Nero.
- group attacks for Nero and Dante? gotta be honest i'm not verymuch deep into the combat in DMC4, but if i remember correctly, there's no such thing there..

question, did Dante has any moves to make him gets closer to enemy in a zippy? i've always had to run to get close to them, i must've did it wrong

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Goddamn I want those Crazy Combos back. Wild Stomp and Free Ride gave firearms a bit more viability that was sorely lacking in DMC4, and Honeycomb was just...dumb.

Styles were a tactical element in DMC3, because just like choosing your small arsenal out of many weapons, you needed to decide how you wanted to go through levels. You chose one style and the weapons to go with it, you had to plan for your style of play. In DMC4, you had access to everything all the time, so there was little reason to segregate by Style, really. The access is nice, but it's clunky to use in regard to dat 1337 skill. Yes, by mastering the controls you get a step closer to that high-level play, but that's the thing, you should never have to wrestle the controls into submission just to be better at the game. That's not even being better at the game - it's being better at a controller :/ It's not really the best game design if your first obstacle to the player is outside of the game. I just can't help but feel that Style switching was just a...half-idea, or that they honestly didn't expect people to switch nearly as fast as they do (which would account for the clunkyness of being on the D-Pad). Although I do admit, I always get a kick out of Dante's animations when he changes Styles

It's difficult because there really isn't a way to make it any better than it is in DMC4 without completely changing it, or reverting to the DMC3 formula. All I know is that it's incredibly silly that certain things are still segregated by Styles for what I can only imagine is nostalgia's sake. Aerial Rave and Helm Breaker can totally be changed for Dante to what Nero and mDante have, and that only serves to make the controls more intuitive, where land and air sword combos are performed with the same button, with the only variation being the character's state of being airborne or not.

Slightly different subject (that I'll collapse), but...

Spoiler

I submit to you @Foxtrot94 that DmC's system isn't inherently "restrictive," it's just not living up to its full potential. We have one directional input in DmC, but way more buttons that could have been used in conjunction. So here, let's take all that Rebellion can do via Swordmaster in DMC4, and toss it at my theoretical (and wholly desired) fully actualized DmC system...

Triangle (land) - Rebellion Combo A & B (Hacker & Death Coil)
Triangle (air) - Aerial Rave (+ Roulette pause combo from DmC)
Triangle (hold) - Over Drive
Circle (land) - Hightime
Circle (air) - Helm Breaker
Up+Up Triangle - Stinger (into Million Stabs)
Up+Up Circle - Dance Macabre
Up+Down Triangle - Round Trip
Up+Down Circle - Prop Shredder

...that's everything plus one more with a pause combo in the air, which honestly why aren't there more of those in general

Then, let's say it's got a fancy version of DmC-DE-'s Lock-On settings, so Up+Up inputs can be the classic Stinger input, and Up+Down inputs can be the classic Hightime input, just for the Lock-On purists who feel comfortable with the classic Lock.

Right there, is the use of a Combo Attack and Special Attack button set-up, with all of the moves Rebellion has ever had - and I'd even just replace Dance Macabre with something else because that's just an auto-sword combo. This is even before we add in something like like DmC's "Stance Triggers," and in regards to DMC4, it could just be used as a Melee Weapon swap, so Rebellion would be neutral, Lucifer could be "Angel Mode," and Gilgamesh could be "Demon Mode." This then gives each of those weapons all their abilities as well, free from Styles.

Then the "Angel" and "Demon" modes just sorta translate to "Trickster" and "Royal Guard" "stances," because those didn't affect weapon functionality, but movement and survival. Hold in the trigger assigned to the Royal Guard stance to block an incoming attack, I suppose? Or maybe have the evasion button be modified by stance, so neutral is the roll, Trickster becomes the slide, and Royal Guard becomes a block, with Release being the input that would be used for a directional dodge, otherwise just tapping the evade button guards in place.

Firearms would require a slight bit of work, but most of that just comes down to using Gun Special (which essentially acts as the Gunslinger style button anyway), plus some directional inputs that are also used above for things like Gun Stinger.

What do you think?

It's also incredibly late for me because I haven't gone to bed yet, so...uh...excuse any incoherence~

question, did Dante has any moves to make him gets closer to enemy in a zippy? i've always had to run to get close to them, i must've did it wrong

Closest thing would be doing Trickster's Dash towards them, or Air Trick, which 'ports you above the target's head.

 

[Veloran]

That was exactly what I meant Hopefully Capcom takes a notice

Thinking about it, it might be something like this -

Buster: Nero's default arm form that he has in DMC4. Basic properties are retained, such as the ability to grab defenseless enemies. To compensate for other forms, the overall damage of these grabs are are lowered, but the animations are much faster and don't leave the player as open. For counters, the Buster is capable of interrupting most if not all non-invincible enemy attacks, but they take the form of a grab against Dante in DMC4 - IE, a skirmish in which you avoid damage, but may not necessarily inflict any.

Claw: A new arm form manifesting at some point in the campaign's story, and unlocked for all subsequent play. The Claw is much quicker than the Buster, allowing for it to augment Nero's normal attack strings during combat. It is capable of countering bladed and pointed attacks perfectly, and it's B functionality is focused on removing enemy armor rather than inflicting damage. However, it is vulnerable against large, blunted attacks and any type of projectiles.

Shield: Another secondary arm form, the Shield is bulkier than either the Claw or Buster, and is capable of exuding a defensive barrier via holding B. Unlike Dante's Royal Guard this is not timing intensive, but also unlike Royal Guard it is not possible for the Shield to counter all attack types or build up energy, it is very vulnerable to attacks that can pierce through it's barrier, and it has reduced effectiveness against ranged offense. However, it does allow Nero to stand against slow, blunt, and heavy attacks, momentarily staggering the enemy and allowing him to retaliate.

Blade: Nero's final arm form is in fact the legendary blade Yamato, which he wields with his right hand. With this form selected, Nero's Y combos are replaced with a variety of sheathed and bare-handed offensive moves, while his B is replaced by utilization of the blade itself. His hand-to-hand strikes, while weaker than the sword, have the added benefit of allowing Nero to charge power within Yamato (Somewhat similar to the Red Queen), permitting it to unleash devastating attacks when finally revealed. These types of assaults, if timed perfectly, are capable of executing extremely damaging counters against boss encounters in particular. Additionally, the usage of Yamato focuses Nero's mind, allowing him to passively deflect and redirect many different ranged abilities from enemies.

Anyway, that's all just sort of where my mind jumps to on the subject of Nero and arm upgrades. In the theoretical game itself, each form would have a wide array of different specific reactions and actions to and from the enemy roster. Hopefully, that would encourage tons of experimentation and replay to discover what can be done.

 

[Foxtrot94]

@TWOxACROSS you see, you don't "fight" the controls in DMC4 to be better. It's not the control scheme itself that's the obstacle in order to be high level player, it's figuring out how to combine the moves of each weapon and Style. That's what skill consists of in this game, for the most part.

The problem (as far as I'm concerned) with DmC's system is that moves that in DMC are Style-related, have now dedicated buttons. One one side, it simplifies the controls making them a bit more accessible. But on the other side, it does restrict you, because for how the control scheme is designed, the dedicated buttons necessarily prevent the implementation of a higher number of moves. They "steal space", so to speak. Cause the Angel and Devil modes don't unlock additional moves that you can use together with your current weapon's moves, they unlock the weapon's moves themselves.
And those additional moves are there, but cause of this system, they are a "toned down" version of their DMC counterparts, allowing you less possibilities in combat. Others are just absent.
So a lot of things you can do in DMC4, it's simply impossible to pull off with this system, cause the controls scheme itself prevents their implementation.
I explained like sh!t, I know, it's hard for me to get complicated points like this across, cause English is not my native language :/

Some moves being exclusive to a Style makes DMC4's system so rewardingly skill based. Cause you need to plan on your next move, you need to already think about what your next move will be, and switch Style according to it. It's not much of a physical effort (fighting the controls you were talking about... it's just tapping a button), it's more of a mental one, that distinguishes the pro player from the average or noobish one. And provides such a sense of satisfaction when you pull off a really stylish looking combo as a sweet reward.
Yeah, it can indeed feel clunky for the inexperienced player at first, but once you know that Swordmaster does this, Trickster does that, etc., the thumb naturally slides on the D-Pad to select the Style you want at the moment no problem.

That being said, your idea to add more airborne directional moves, and more pause moves I think it rocks, that's a nice suggestion that sticks to the topic! You had any specific moves in mind? Would be nice to hear some animations ideas too.

About your reworking of DmC's controls... it's interesting, I suggest you opening a thread like this in the DmC section and post it there, so that other people can make suggestions on how to improve DmC's combat system as well. This way fans of both systems will be happy

- group attacks for Nero and Dante? gotta be honest i'm not verymuch deep into the combat in DMC4, but if i remember correctly, there's no such thing there..

What do you mean with that? Moves that can hit a large number of enemies at the same time? Cause if that's the case, Nero has his exceed moves, Red Queen Combo C and Shuffle, for example, while Dante has Shock or Pin-Up (if used properly).

But they need to expand on that, nice suggestion.

 

[ef9dante_oSsshea]

DmC was a great system but you sacrifice guard flying and star raves and sky running and a good few other moves when losing styles , that is something i can't t play without so the best for both sides would be a DMC5 with a controller layout for both styles and single button implementation like DmC

DmC wasn't a step forward it was a streamline of the combat system to make it way easier and more accessibleso that all players could become good.

 

[Foxtrot94]

@ef9 o shea about you Styles level 5 idea... what would u add to them? What level 5 would consist of?