Game of the year? Game of the Year.

[Paexie]

This is the origin story that takes the core of the original games (particularly 3 and 1) so of course nobody was surprised. Your point?

 

[Sieghart]

Is it any wonder that specifics of this game's ending were predicted months before the actual datamining that confirmed it? People took one look at the story as it stood and were like "yup, vergil's going to turn evil, dante will fight him after vergil writes off kat, then leave the order and be a loner after rescuing kat. Totally calling it"

Indeed it might be but that still depends of how good they will execute this vergil-dante betrayal thing. Just look how Griffith betrayed Guts in the berserk series. Despite being a trope or a cliche, people still like it.

This is the origin story that takes the core of the original games (particularly 3 and 1) so of course nobody was surprised. Your point?

^This too.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

By removing overly specific terms like "demon" and replacing them with "bad guys" ("bad guy" is their role in the story, "demons" is their specific identity), and replacing "nephalim" with "outcast" ("nephalim" is the character's identity, not his role in the story) then we quickly see why this story is extremely generic.

Is it any wonder that specifics of this game's ending were predicted months before the actual datamining that confirmed it? People took one look at the story as it stood and were like "yup, vergil's going to turn evil, dante will fight him after vergil writes off kat, then leave the order and be a loner after rescuing kat. Totally calling it"

Dude, by doing what you just did, replacing specific terms, you're doing exactly what Furious D said you were. You're taking away the things that make the story unique in order to make it sound more generic. You're stripping it down to its barest essential plot, and I can do that with damn near anything you throw at me, because a lot of things sound generic when you take out what makes it unique.

When something uses tropes, the story depends on that flesh (those "specific terms") to make it unique, and can work really, really well. You can't just remove what makes it unique and then start calling it generic.

Oh, and ending predictions came up false, and datamining didn't confirmed much of anything either.

 

[Furious D]

By removing overly specific terms like "demon" and replacing them with "bad guys" ("bad guy" is their role in the story, "demons" is their specific identity), and replacing "nephalim" with "outcast" ("nephalim" is the character's identity, not his role in the story) then we quickly see why this story is extremely generic.

Can't you do that with any story, like you said yourself? I don't really think it's surprising that removing terms specific to the story and replacing them with generic placeholders will make a story sound generic.

Is it any wonder that specifics of this game's ending were predicted months before the actual datamining that confirmed it? People took one look at the story as it stood and were like "yup, vergil's going to turn evil, dante will fight him after vergil writes off kat, then leave the order and be a loner after rescuing kat. Totally calling it"

Most fans (myself included) would find it rather bizarre if Vergil turned out to be a true good guy, so this isn't exactly bad news, to me.

 

[chocolateghost79]

By removing overly specific terms like "demon" and replacing them with "bad guys" ("bad guy" is their role in the story, "demons" is their specific identity), and replacing "nephalim" with "outcast" ("nephalim" is the character's identity, not his role in the story) then we quickly see why this story is extremely generic.

Is it any wonder that specifics of this game's ending were predicted months before the actual datamining that confirmed it? People took one look at the story as it stood and were like "yup, vergil's going to turn evil, dante will fight him after vergil writes off kat, then leave the order and be a loner after rescuing kat. Totally calling it"

You didn't provide specifics. I was talking about actual media not just basic terms that can be applied to anything.
I used the terms I did such as demons and nephilim because that's what makes DmC's story unique.
You are just proving my point by having to replace the terms I used to make it seem generic.
The game's ending is already predicted? No it isn't, Vergil becoming evil is known yes, but of course that is known.
When his character was revealed it was shown that his personality conflicts with Dante. That doesn't mean we know the ending, it just means we know that Vergil will become evil, but that is pretty basic. We don't know his reasons/motives/his journey into betraying Dante.
Hell Capcom wants us to know that Vergil will be evil, have you not seen the trailer for the Vergil DLC? It's called Vergil's Downfall and shows him in a state of distress and madness.
So again, the themes in DmC may be common but that doesn't mean the story is generic. If you would like to think that go ahead, but like I said I will wait until we know the full story and come back to this thread.

 

[chocolateghost79]

Dude, by doing what you just did, replacing specific terms, you're doing exactly what Furious D said you were. You're taking away the things that make the story unique in order to make it sound more generic. You're stripping it down to its barest essential plot, and I can do that with damn near anything you throw at me, because a lot of things sound generic when you take out what makes it unique.

When something uses tropes, the story depends on that flesh (those "specific terms") to make it unique, and can workreally, really well. You can't just remove what makes it unique and then start calling it generic.

Oh, and ending predictions came up false, and datamining didn't confirmed much of anything either.

Exactly

Can't you do that with any story, like you said yourself? I don't really think it's surprising that removing terms specific to the story and replacing them with generic placeholders will make a story sound generic.

And again, exactly!

 

[Kam]

Dude, by doing what you just did, replacing specific terms, you're doing exactly what Furious D said you were. You're taking away the things that make the story unique in order to make it sound more generic. You're stripping it down to its barest essential plot, and I can do that with damn near anything you throw at me, because a lot of things sound generic when you take out what makes it unique.

When something uses tropes, the story depends on that flesh (those "specific terms") to make it unique, and can work really, really well. You can't just remove what makes it unique and then start calling it generic.

Oh, and ending predictions came up false, and datamining didn't confirmed much of anything either.

datamining confirmed you turn away from the order and end up fighting and defeating vergil. This prediction ended up being 100% true. The rest is yet to be seen. Another popular prediction is that mundus will end up being a really huge, fat blob of a demon, and after he's defeated, dante will force feed him his children that lillith is constantly birthing.

Think anything can sound generic when you describe things as I have? Okay, challenge accepted: "queen of the damned", book version. Strip it down to its extremely generic elements and make it sound as cliche and ordinary as possible.

being a nephalim is not a unique trait in a story. You could slap in being a nephalim as the *last* part of writing your story and have it change nothing. Your character's actions and motivations are what make the story, not the labels.

a story about an evil government controlled by demons
is not significantly different than a story about an evil government controlled by people
is not significantly different than a story about an evil government controlled by aliens
is not significantly different than a story about an evil government controlled by nephalim.

a story about an outcast human
is the same as a story about an outcast nephalim
is the same as a story about an outcast demon
is the same as a story about an outcast half demon
is the same as etc etc etc you get the idea by now

If I copied the exact plot of the matrix, but I made the main character a nephalim, and the antagonists demons instead of robots, would it be a unique plot because "it's presented differently"? Because from what I've been hearing from you guys, you seem to think it would.

what I suspect is happening is you just don't know how to properly communicate what it is you want to say. You mean to tell me that all the little things that happen during the course of the story are more important than the story itself, not that changing everyone's name tags makes for a unique story. Am I correct?

 

[chocolateghost79]

I give up I've proven my point along with numerous others.
For some reason you want this game's story to seem generic.
I don't know why, but good luck with that.

 

[Kam]

I give up I've proven my point along with numerous others.
For some reason you want this game's story to seem generic.
I don't know why, but good luck with that.

I give up. I've proven my point numerous times.
For some reason you want this game's story to seem unique.
I don't know why, but good luck with that.

(see? I can do exactly what you just did too, it's not hard. Backing up your claims is harder, which you never did)

Now answer my previous question:
If I copied the exact plot of the matrix, but I made the main character a nephalim, and the antagonists demons instead of robots, would it be a unique plot because "it's presented differently"?

 

[Paexie]

The sum of it's parts make the whole. I don't think there is a better way to describe this. If you are dead on wanting to stand by your poor point, then cool.

But you are missing out. I can't see you enjoying a decent film at all if this is how you analyze things.

 

[chocolateghost79]

I give up. I've proven my point numerous times.
For some reason you want this game's story to seem unique.
I don't know why, but good luck with that.

(see? I can do exactly what you just did too, it's not hard. Backing up your claims is harder, which you never did)

Now answer my previous question:
If I copied the exact plot of the matrix, but I made the main character a nephalim, and the antagonists demons instead of robots, would it be a unique plot because "it's presented differently"?

I've already backed up my claims, but to answer your question, no. Copying the story of The Matrix and using demons instead of robots would not be unique, however DmC is not copying a specific story. It is using common themes in unique ways to create unique outcomes to create a unique story.

 

[Kam]

The sum of it's parts make the whole not the whole. I don't think there is a better way to describe this. If you are dead on wanting to stand by your poor point, then cool.

But you are missing out. I can't see you enjoying a decent film at all if this is how you analyze things.

Out of all the films that come out ever year, I end up enjoying very few of them. I'm actually more of a book person; you might have noticed earlier, but I'm actually sort of an anne rice fan

 

[Kam]

I've already backed up my claims, but to answer your question, no. Copying the story of The Matrix and using demons instead of robots would not be unique, however DmC is not copying a specific story. It is using common themes in unique ways to create unique outcomes to create a unique story.

how are they unique?


because from what you were saying earlier, you seemed to think that some characters being demons and some characters being nephalim was a change to the story, when it actually isn't.

 

[Paexie]

No and honestly, I hope you realize what we are trying to explain here. Even books can be just as tired, riddled in cliches, yet their delivery is what sells it.

EDIT: never mind keep that head under that sand, you are doing swell down there

 

[Kam]

No and honestly, I hope you realize what we are trying to explain here. Even books can be just as tired, riddled in cliches, yet their delivery is what sells it.

this is true. However, looking at all the media and the demo for this game that exist right now, I see absolutely none of that necessary delivery. All I see is that giant laundry list of cliches and no special delivery to change it.

I'm operating off of existing information, I don't make assumptions like "I'm sure they'll make it good, so I'm nominating them for best story before I know about it!"

I'm sort of jaded like that.

 

[chocolateghost79]

how are they unique?


because from what you were saying earlier, you seemed to think that some characters being demons and some characters being nephalim was a change to the story, when it actually isn't.

Because the way they are delivered have not been done before.
And yes demons and angels add a supernatural theme to the overall story thus making it different from let's say a crime story.

 

[Kam]

Because the way they are delivered have not been done before.
And yes demons and angels add a supernatural theme to the overall story thus making it different from let's say a crime story.

how is this delivery different than what we've seen before? I keep asking you to explain the delivery method, but then you ignore me and start talking about character identities (which is a completely different thing)

I could make a crime story about nephalim and demons, because nephalim and demons are just identities, the crime story is the plot. Same with this game: nephalim and demons are just identities, you could easily replace them with other identities and the plot would still make sense.

 

[Paexie]

Head in the sand dude and stop putting words in our mouths like that; we never said it's going to be good or bad.
We just don't know yet and you don't either, so stop acting like a prude thinking this is supposed to be a tour de force

 

[Kam]

Head in the sand dude and stop putting words in our mouths like that; we never said it's going to be good or bad.
We just don't know yet and you don't either, So stop acting like a prude thinking this is supposed to be a tour de force

I wasn't putting the words in your mouth, I started posting in direct response to posts like this

...There is no story like it...

or this

I guarantee it will win many awards for it's visual effects, story....

and all the ones agreeing with them. If these are not words that you agree with, and don't feel they would come out of your mouth, then clearly I wasn't talking to you. Why are you even arguing with me?

 

[Paexie]

how is this delivery different than what we've seen before? I keep asking you to explain the delivery method, but then you ignore me and start talking about character identities (which is a completely different thing)

I could make a crime story about nephalim and demons, because nephalim and demons are just identities, the crime story is the plot. Same with this game: nephalim and demons are just identities, you could easily replace them with other identities and the plot would still make sense.

You just don't get it. Have you actually seen a game that looks and feels EXACTLY like this? That has used actual actors in it's story and a narrative drive and reason for it's mechanics? Why are you angry at cliches that have survived decades of story telling if it's not for it's worth in retelling in new ways?