Game of the year? Game of the Year.

[Kam]

A cliche isn't instantly a bad thing, hard as people try to make it seem like it. These are more tropes than anything.

A cliche is something done so much that it becomes completely tired and boring, and I can only think of a few things that share the same themes used in DmC, and none of it is really all that cliche, just trope-ish.

every sci fi original movie ever. they make HEAVY use of the "government is evil/controlled and up to no good" trope. They also end just about every movie by nuking something, though that probably won't happen here

 

[chocolateghost79]

the government being controlled is a cliche
the government with a dark agenda is a cliche
the media brainwashing people is a cliche
fast food being out to get people is a cliche
corporations enslaving people with greed is a cliche
"we are anonymous" is a massive cliche, right down to the cliche knockoff guyfawkes mask vergil uses
underground "terrorist group" being the good guys is a cliche

endless cliches. Like I said, game has great art, but don't get your hopes up about this game winning awards for its story

PS - when a "common theme" is repeated to the point where it's too common, that's what "being cliche" means

But the way DmC approaches these "cliches" is different in its presentation therefore its story does not come off as cliche'd. It's themes may be used quite a bit, but like I said the way DmC presents these are different. Plus we don't know the full story we've only seen tid bits from previews and trailers. There's alot we're not seeing.
I'll come back to this thread when the game is actually out.

Oh and btw, I know what a cliche is thank you.

 

[Kam]

The only troublesome cliches I've seen so far is
distressed damsel (at least Kat is willing to put herself on the line, we get development with her and she is a BIG character unlike a lot of distressed damsels out there)
evil cooperation (many things have done this, but the look and supernatural touch makes it pretty damn cool)
sibling betrayal (the abel and cain is really overdone but this was unavoidable)

These are commonly used tropes. Now there is no such thing as an original idea. The only way things stay unique is it's delivery and so far, DmC has delivered something unique. You can in fact tell me where all these ideas come from, but to create something out of it is what makes it special.

Darksiders does the same damn thing and it's not criticized one bit for it because of it's direction. Same goes for the DMC1.

which is why I said, maybe their delivery will salvage this painfully generic plot. Yes, everything draws inspiration from something else, eventually following the chain all the way back to some real life experience, but it's how you use that stuff that matters.

I mean, DMC3 is a good example. Had a great story, had a terrific character development, all pieced together from similar themes as this game... but they did an *awful* job of using what they had to communicate that story to the player. The average person would finish the game not even realizing a story had been going on, or that character development had happened. They left it up to the player to dig through sources like game files, and outside media like manga and books written on the game, to really get the full story. And in my opinion, that was a terrible idea.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

every sci fi original movie ever. they make HEAVY use of the "government is evil/controlled and up to no good" trope. They also end just about every movie by nuking something, though that probably won't happen here

The thing is that a trope is merely a theme, a bare-bones concept. It's only as good as the writer who fleshes it out. Those Sci-Fi movies are atrocious with their tropes because they expect the trope itself to do the work for them, but there are plenty of great stories out there that have tropes, and use them incredibly well. Look at something like Braid, which used all the classic Mario Brothers tropes, but then completely turned them on their ear with much deeper meaning.

 

[Paexie]

the government being controlled is a cliche
the government with a dark agenda is a cliche Demons are the goverment it's not being controled THEY ARE CONTROL
the media brainwashing people is a cliche How it's being done is unique
fast food being out to get people is a cliche Lmao it goes with media it's being done in it's own way
corporations enslaving people with greed is a cliche Not greed. They want their souls. They are harvesting them.
"we are anonymous" is a massive cliche, right down to the cliche knockoff guyfawkes mask vergil uses How else will they fight them if the higher power is looking everywhere... this is not a cliche, just a reflection of our own world
underground "terrorist group" being the good guys is a cliche Omg are you serious... why is this bad?

endless cliches. Like I said, game has great art, but don't get your hopes up about this game winning awards for its story
CLICHES DON'T MAKE OR BREAK A STORY DUDE
PS - when a "common theme" is repeated to the point where it's too common, that's what "being cliche" means NOPE

 

[Paexie]

every sci fi original movie ever. they make HEAVY use of the "government is evil/controlled and up to no good" trope. They also end just about every movie by nuking something, though that probably won't happen here

I'm sorry, but none of us have seen the whole story unfold. So let's hold our judgement of the story until we actually see it.
Jeez, this is just as bad as the people that hate twilight without actually reading it to find out why it's bad in the first place.

 

[Kam]

But the way DmC approaches these "cliches" is different in its presentation therefore its story does not come off as cliched. Its themes may be used quite a bit, but like I said the way DmC presents these are different. Plus we don't know the full story we've only seen tid bits from previews and trailers. There's a lot we're not seeing.
I'll come back to this thread when the game is actually out.

Oh and btw, I know what a cliche is thank you.

no, the way DmC is presenting everything right now is exactly the same as I've seen it done countless times before. That's part of why it's cliche. How many times have you watched a bad sci-fi movie where the events follow like this

-see society, looks okay
-some pesky vandals are ruining everything by being dicks
-main character realizes society is not okay
-distrust in everything begins
-encounters token hot woman
-token hot woman brings him to pesky vandals
-pesky vandals claim to be good guys, main character still distrusts
-token hot woman urges him to trust them, main character listens to token hot woman

and then the rest of the plot goes from there. If you haven't seen this obnoxiously overused trope before, it's probably because you haven't been looking

 

[Paexie]

IM FACEPALMING EVERYWHERE SOMEONE HELP ME

 

[Furious D]

Guys, stop fighting. I'm sure we can communicate our ideas without goading or raging.

On-topic, I like the setup for the story. This is a world where the demons have already won. They took over the world. But they did it not through hellfire and force of arms, but through using our own systems against us through subversion and deception. I think that's really cool, and not something I've seen done before in quite that way (outside of the Leviathans in Supernatural, but that was more of a body-snatching thing and not done very well IMO). But, as always, the story itself will be the decider.

 

[Kam]

The thing is that a trope is merely a theme, a bare-bones concept. It's only as good as the writer who fleshes it out. Those Sci-Fi movies are atrocious with their tropes because they expect the trope itself to do the work for them, but there are plenty of great stories out there that have tropes, and use them incredibly well. Look at something like Braid, which used all the classic Mario Brothers tropes, but then completely turned them on their ear with much deeper meaning.

I think you're confusing gameplay mechanics with plot elements.

but I see what you're going for, and you have a good point. Hopefully all of this is flushed out and we get a really good justification for all these really overused story elements. As it stands, if I had to make a prediction based on available information, I'd say don't get your hopes up because the story is fanfiction grade right now.

But this is ninja theory, they've had pretty strong storytelling in the past. Who knows, maybe they're presenting a really cheesy cliched plot on purpose just to turn the whole thing on its head later?

IM FACEPALMING EVERYWHERE SOMEONE HELP ME

help you explain it to me better than you are? or help you defend an empty point via bandwagon? Right now I suspect it's the latter, but I'm really hoping you prove me wrong

 

[Paexie]

My face hurts

 

[Kam]

My face hurts

so make it stop hurting. explain to me why you already know this plot is so deep and well constructed, and do a better job of it than just bolding the word NOPE over and over. But if all you're going to do is go "oh god he hurts me guys help guys guys" then tell me now so I can move on and do other things with my night

 

[chocolateghost79]

no, the way DmC is presenting everything right now is exactly the same as I've seen it done countless times before. That's part of why it's cliche. How many times have you watched a bad sci-fi movie where the events follow like this

-see society, looks okay
-some pesky vandals are ruining everything by being dicks
-main character realizes society is not okay
-distrust in everything begins
-encounters token hot woman
-token hot woman brings him to pesky vandals
-pesky vandals claim to be good guys, main character still distrusts
-token hot woman urges him to trust them, main character listens to token hot woman

and then the rest of the plot goes from there. If you haven't seen this obnoxiously overused trope before, it's probably because you haven't been looking

Again, DmC's presentation is unique.
Have you seen a story where society is controlled by demons and a rough around the edges nephilim has to destroy the main demon behind it along with finding out who he really is, finding out about his past such as his mother and father, building a relationship with a human and long lost brother, and having to fight for his life everyday being pulled into a demonic version of the real world? If so I would like specifics, if not then DmC's presentation is unique like I stated.

 

[Sieghart]

Even if it's cliche, what matters is the execution first and foremost. If DmC done it right then i don't see any problem here.

 

[Furious D]

But this is ninja theory, they've had pretty strong storytelling in the past. Who knows, maybe they're presenting a really cheesy cliched plot on purpose just to turn the whole thing on its head later?


help you explain it to me better than you are? or help you defend an empty point via bandwagon? Right now I suspect it's the latter, but I'm really hoping you prove me wrong

I think Paexie is mad because you've sort of described the story in the most general terms possible, then accused it of being generic. Were I to nitpick, I'd say that your summary isn't entirely correct, since Dante already has a severe distrust of society at large at the start of the game, and must be roused to action by the arrival of a mysterious girl, which is a trope in itself, but that's not really what I'm getting at.

You said it yourself, actually. Reducing a story enough will yield fairly generic results. For instance, Enslaved is just a story about two escaped slaves who at first hate each other but come to a warm relationship through the struggles on their journey home. Heavenly Sword is a story about a young woman who defies a prophecy to wield a magic sword against an evil empire that threatens her people. Pretty simple stuff, but still effective because of how it's done.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

I think you're confusing gameplay mechanics with plot elements

Nah, not the running and jumping, the actual semblance of narrative it has about pursuing the princess and such. You got the gist of it though. Paexie sorta explained how things are a bit different, even as far as the tropes go, but it all matters on how it's all fleshed out and put together as a whole. I said it before somewhere else, but it's applicable here too that when we see a story presented in disjointed clumps, it's really difficult to figure out how it truly comes together.

And honestly, a lot of the tropes you mention are tropes to begin with because they work. So many people have tried so many different alternatives, and those tropes are the ones that endure. Just because something is different doesn't mean it works, y'know?

Oh, another good example of tropes turned on their ear would be Cabin in the Woods.

 

[Paexie]

so make it stop hurting. explain to me why you already know this plot is so deep and well constructed, and do a better job of it than just bolding the word NOPE over and over. But if all you're going to do is go "oh god he hurts me guys help guys guys" then tell me now so I can move on and do other things with my night

I didn't say that, you dunce. I said that it's better if we hold our tongues before we shut it down because we haven't seen the WHOLE plot.
The spinets have been heavily edited since Captivate2012. Dialogue, places, the actions that take place have been heavily edited out to avoid heavy spoilers.
And don't give me your dung and put words in my damn mouth. You have time to come here, make an account and discuss then I can cry over spilled milk, dude. It goes both ways.

 

[Furious D]

If you haven't seen this obnoxiously overused trope before, it's probably because you haven't been looking

IM FACEPALMING EVERYWHERE SOMEONE HELP ME

so make it stop hurting. explain to me why you already know this plot is so deep and well constructed, and do a better job of it than just bolding the word NOPE over and over. But if all you're going to do is go "oh god he hurts me guys help guys guys" then tell me now so I can move on and do other things with my night

I didn't say that, you dunce. I said that it's better if we hold our tongues before we shut it down because we haven't seen the WHOLE plot.
The spinets have been heavily edited since Captivate2012. Dialogue, places, the actions that take place have been heavily edited out to avoid heavy spoilers.
And don't give me your dung and put words in my damn mouth. You have time to come here, make an account and discuss then I can cry over spilled milk, dude. It goes both ways.

Guys! It's tempting to be mad on the internet, but giving in would make all our nights that much worse. Relax!

 

[TWOxACROSS]

PORKINS! YOU FAT F*CK!

 

[Kam]

Again, DmC's presentation is unique.
Have you seen a story where society is controlled by secret evil and a rough around the edges outcast has to destroy the main evil behind it along with self discovery/coming of age, finding out about his past such as his family, building a relationship with a accepting person and long lost family, and [this is a game mechanic, not a story element, but bayonetta already did it, if you insist on quibbling about it] If so I would like specifics, if not then DmC's presentation is unique like I stated.

By removing overly specific terms like "demon" and replacing them with "bad guys" ("bad guy" is their role in the story, "demons" is their specific identity), and replacing "nephalim" with "outcast" ("nephalim" is the character's identity, not his role in the story) then we quickly see why this story is extremely generic.

Is it any wonder that specifics of this game's ending were predicted months before the actual datamining that confirmed it? People took one look at the story as it stood and were like "yup, vergil's going to turn evil, dante will fight him after vergil writes off kat, then leave the order and be a loner after rescuing kat. Totally calling it"