Okay its not even a debate that DmC isn't all that great of a story as promised by NT or even close to their past works but now its being debated whether its better than the past DMC games.
its better than the past dmc games because it is coherent and much better written even if the dialogue has alot of swears but then again i go to an art university where students do infact dress like and act like dante so you shouldn't expect twenty year olds to act like elegant men, just like how amazing spiderman is a different interpretation of spiderman set in the modern world, this is NT's interpretation of what dante would act like in the TWENTY FIRST CENTURY, instead of the loosely based TWENTIETH century that the old game was set in, not to mention that for some reason people don't seem to realize that this is a video game which means gameplay takes precedence over story especially considering that this game has less cutscenes than the 3rd and 4th game, it just tells its plot in a coherent way, if this were a novel or comic a lot more things would have been explained but then again nostalgia fanboys praise the old story for living certain things ambiguous because "it makes the plot more interesting so its way cooler" so why is it that this game is not allowed to do the same without the bitching of annoying fanboys who don't know any better
Well I'm not here to discuss if that is the case but I will say this. DmC's story on its own is rather poorly written, incoherent, sloppy, inconsistent, and bad not just in dialogue (God no that was below average) but just as a whole.
-incoherent, basically means that no event in the game relates to each other, basically like a call of duty level transition where you end up in a complete other country, this is not true, as every event in the game that we see dante go through ends up affecting the overall arching plot and we also know why he and how he gets to every location in the game, something which the old dmc games didn't even have considering dante's story basically finished in dmc1 and there was no over arching plot afterward that point that would affect his character development
I'll start it off with the plot holes.
of which there are very few that can't be explained and already have been explained by supplementary material -_-
Minor Plot hole #1: The Hunter...or Hunter(s). Why did Lilith mentioned that the Hunters not Hunter but HunterS will find Dante but only one was shown and it was stated that they were more of them (hell Lilith referred to them as a group) but after the first one none where shown afterwards. A really huge missed opportunity for this game's story and a minor contradiction.
-don't even understand how this is a problem, is it a fad for dmc games to have you backtrack and fight the same bosses over and over, is that good game design, no, so why would NT include this, you are literally complaining about NT not opting to take the easy way out and re-use boss characters, way to go kid, i'll be sure to write NT a letter asking them to re-use every boss fight three times in the sequel and have an entire level dedicated a dice minigame, for all we know there was only one giant hunter demon and then several demon collaborators which makes more sense than reusing the same boss over and over
MAJOR Plot hole #2: Why did it take Mundus so long to find Dante or even find out that he lives for
it doesn't take Mundus thirteen years for him to find dante considering that dante was imprisoned in a hell prison, (which is a giant demon btw) and escaped ONE YEAR prior to the game's events, hence the reason why Mundus was looking for him, he was actually ABOUT TO BE KILLED but was saved by his father who gave him the rebellion sword
Now those were just plot holes and there are plenty of other BS in this story that could be considered plot holes but to me aren't from a technical stand point just stupid sh*t.
wow you sound so smart right here
Now onto missed opportunities/questioning the story.
let's take the fail part out because its unnecessary, childish and just plain annoying
1: Why would Sparda hide him, his wife, and family in a mansion in the beach side from the demon king and his army...not really that good really and not do crap about it in case they tried to looking for him which is pretty obvious they'll look for him?
sparda and eva were disguised as humans and lived like normal humans with two twin sons, its a nice way to raise two normal human looking boys especially considering that its heavily implied that Mundus had not found out about the birth of the two nephilim,(by his most trusted friend and ally who helped him achieve power in the first place), until the boys were just little kids, for all we know they moved around constantly like the leader of the assassin order in AC
2: How can they find Sparda and his family when they tried hiding but couldn't notice Dante when he clearly wasn't hiding and was out in the open...in a trailer park...on a pier?
he was found this was explained in supplementary material, he's been free for one year, not his entire life -_-
Fail #3: How is Mundus afraid of Nephilim or is considered his only weakness or the thing that can kill him when regardless he has a hell gate that makes him immortal so whats the point of hyping up Dante and Vergil when Mundus can't be killed regardless
just like how harry potter is voldemort's one true enemy who can kill him but he created horcruxes, same logic applies here, it's called a failsafe
if his hell gate is gone then a Nephilim really isn't the only thing that can slay him
only nephilim can slay demon kings just like how link is the only one who can beat ganondorf, this isn't even a plothole,
then for trust me Mundus as
a boss didn't show off anything impressive to say only this species can beat him?
let's see you get stabbed in the back with yamato and then pounded on by two very powerful twin nephilim, its not an indefinite win as dante would have lost without the assist of vergil who saved his life during the fight just like how kat saved dante in the beginning, welcome to the world of non anime storytelling
Vergil: As Nephilim we are the only ones who can kill Mundus.
yup
Later
Vergil: Mundus has a hell gate that makes him immortal so if we can shut it down (via my Yamato) he is mortal and we can slay him.
yup, and your point is what, why didn't they have an extremely long ten minute cutscene full of exposition explaining each and every detail of Mundus
Dante: So as Nephilim we really can't kill him.
once again, fail safe
4: How come killing Bob, a demon, granted him an Angel weapon
same reason why beating nevan, a vampire, gives dante an electric guitar -__-, or why beating a frog gives him the use of a box that transforms into various fire arms,
how come beating the Hunter
an highly skilled demon made for fighting unlike Bob and Poison
um, is there a rule book stating which thousand year olds demons are made for fighting or not -_- must be in the dmc lore manual that doesn't exist
so says the story
never once did it say that bob and poison weren't made for fighting, pretty sure that their boss fights that involve them using various powers confirmed that yes, they do fight
didn't grant him a weapon
same reason why dante finds ifrit in a garden instead of getting it from phantom, because it was established in the first two games that dante not only can get weapons from powerful demons but some of them don't even drop weapons because once again, no rulebook for where we get weapons
Bob was taken down by a bullet,
because the constant damage that we inflicted to him in the boss fight just didn't happen right? no actually, THERE WAS NO BOSS, DANTE WALKED IN AND SHOT HIM AND LEFT, oh wait there was a boss and you are (like with the murder of lilith's spawn and lilith) ignoring what happened before hand
Hunter was impervious to that sh*t
because dante was no where near as strong as he was when he fought bob which is why he needed kat to help him because otherwise he would've lost and would likely have been imprisoned again or killed at the spot
so he is clearly a better fighter and stronger demon than Bob
but no demon weapon)?
5(not really a fail but a WTH): How come Dante has his sword hidden and can summon on his back
read vergil's chronicle instead of complaining when the information is located through a simple google search and no dante only summons it in limbo until the end of the game where it is established that limbo is no longer around,it Vergil must carry his sword around
because they are two different people, same reason why dante opted to carry his sword in a guitar case while vergil had no problem carrying his sword around in the open
in fact he is always shown holding it
because in this vergil embraces his heritage just like the old series, didn't know that NT had to spell this all out for you -_-
most of all how come Vergil's sword can destroy the hell gate
same reason why vergil's sword was used in the sealing ritual to unlock temin-ni-gru and not rebellion or dante uses it to destroy the actual hellgate in the original series , its yamato, its used for sealing
6: How come Dante (even Vergil) was more invulnerable to pain despite being half demon and half angel
because he isn't an anime character -__-
compared to his half demon half human counterpart?
first you complain about re-used plot elements and now you are saying that they should've used more of them, um, wtf, THIS IS WHAT YOU WOULD REFER TO AS INCOHERENT
Shouldn't being half demon and half angel...both beings above human strength and ability make him more OP
dude you should totally print that copy of fantasy rules for everyone to see -_-
not much less than half demon half human?
once again, not an anime character and consider that at a much younger age than dmc1 dante, this one was able to beat a demon king while the old series established that he definitely could not do this as he couldn't even beat arkam by himself
7: Why was his fight with Vergil gave him full white hair instantly (went from partial white to full white) and yet Vergil was born with white hair and Dante didn't?
welcome to the world of character design, where you create differences in style and don't just give everyone the exact same hair style over and over, and the world of recessive genes is there a rule that dante must be born with white hair
Don't give me the dominant genes crap for Dante was stronger
genes has nothing to do with it, he was born with black hair vergil was born with white, its not a story related issue, red hair is a mutation so for all we know eva should've been born with black hair instead of red considering that it is said several time that dante is basically a momma's boy just like how naruto has his mother's face
8: Why were the pendants completely irrelevant to the plot if they were shown and not only shown but made a big deal of
just because dante doesn't do the "i have the power pose" doesn't mean that the amulets don't serve any purpose as they are key components to the devil trigger state and are shown to be connected to vergil and dante...I mean the pendants(well Dante's) were shown on the title screen and parading around as if it were significant but nothing happened?
its called a memento, dante barely remembers his mother but knows that its from her and its later revealed to be the source of his devil trigger and a way for the dead sparda and eva to somewhat connect to their sons, once again, why do you praise the old story for "being mysterious" and yet need every single detail spelled out for you in this game
You can take them out and the overall story wouldn't change at all
kinda like how you could take out nero and dante's life and character wouldn't change -_-
9: How come at their old home Dante was able to get the gifts/special weapons/abilities/gear their parents left them
ugh...this is annoying...you annoy me, but like a baby who needs a bottle i'll spoonfeed you your answers which could be answered by a simple wikia read up -_-
but Vergil who was their before Dante (hinted I think)..didn't get crap from his parents?
it is implied that dante was treated better than vergil, even in death
Don't give me the Limbo excuse...for Dante wasn't dragged into there, Vergil and Kat send him there and Vergil apparently has ways of getting into Limbo as how would he have saved Kat in Limbo.
vergil taught kat her techniques
10: WHERE THE HELL ARE THE ANGELS??? For some big war going between them....somewhere...we sure as hell didn't see any angels.
because angels certainly can't be used in the likely sequel right? because every single arch of a story needs to be told in the first iteration right? -_-
11: What was in Vergil's data collection that it had to been saved? It doesn't matter for not only was it not answered or explored its made completely irrelevant by the end of the game.
because we should let the enemy loot all of our data like a child playing borderlands right?
12: Why does that penitentiary Mundus own have such low security?
dante was in limbo, he's a nephilim, the penitentiary was full of humans, and was used to torture humans
Based on what I've seen Dante busted into that place quite easily
because he snuck in
it apparently harbors not just victims but other Nephilim
it doesn't house other nephilim just what's left of one of them -_-
a guy who knows all of Mundus's secrets (Phineas)
because he's a prophet, and prophets are there to tell the protagonist where to go because this is a hero's journey
so you think it would have much better security
because demons don't make good security right, yeah the rage demons certainly were just there to **** and breed little rages -__-
better yet why does Mundus keep people he would consider dangerous enough to lock away alive
to torture them, hence the reason why they were screaming and crying out in pain and writing graffiti on the wall with blood begging for death
especially the Nephilims and Phineas or at least seal them away somewhere WHERE NO ONE can get to them...like Sparda....which leads me to another point.
13: How does Phineas GAIN SO MUCH INFO ABOUT MUNDUS despite being LOCKED AWAY?
because he is a prophet -_-
This is a problem as Phineas knows stuff not even Vergil who has agents and intel gatherers everywhere apparently.
So one guy locked away in a prison...a pretty crappy one too, can gain more valuable info than a guy with a whole network resources?
14: Why did that floating statue....Nephilim..Asziel...forgot how to spell her name...unlock his Devil Trigger?
because it saw what was locked away in his amulet and it responded accordingly to unlock the final piece of dante's potential
Is this Crash Bandicoot?
no, it is not in fact crash bandicoot
If so how did Vergil unlock his Devil Trigger?
through sheer rage as it is triggered by sheer rage and he spent years purifying his own realm of power as said IN VERGIL'S CHRONICLE!!!!
Another question...how come that Nephilim chick didn't look human while Dante and Vergil both looked human?
same reason why the statue inside dante's mind didn't appear human even though it was his power
15: Why did Vergil get witch tim...I mean Bullet Time or slowed down time in that scene in the car when they're about to crash after the Trade but doesn't afterwards without any explanation?
due to the same reason why pieces of limbo can float in space, and since it saved their lives they don't need an inner monologue about it like anime characters
Since when did time slowed down in Limbo or can slow down in Limbo?
several parts in the game
16: Why did Mundus create a world of stability when his plan was to harvest human souls? What harvesting human souls even do anyway?
do we REALLY need context for why Mundus needs to harvest human souls, he probably consumes them, and why would he want a world of chaos when he can make the humans dumb, fat and unable to do anything besides reproduce -_-
17: Why wasn't the Order developed on or used a bit more
because this is a video game, not an anime, movie, manga, comic, novel, poem, or epic
I mean they're mentioned to be an organization of what I guess are humans who are out to overthrow the demon empire on Earth and work for Vergil and that is it and after that THAT IS IT.
once again, this is NOT a novel, video games that aren't by hideki kamiya tend to focus on what's extremely relevant to the main character and what he is doing at all times, not having random flashbacks to random locations to show humans who would not be given any actual time to develop doing ****
They're easily taken down by the demons and the SWAT team
they are humans, not demon hunters
made irrelevant like they never happened
vergil and kat as well as dante were ****ed to see their comrades die and we were there to see it happen and couldn't do anything to stop it
to tell you the truth it felt like they never existed as they didn't do anything.
because vergil got all of the info that he gave us, the viewer, through wikipedia right?
We physically or literally don't see any other members
kat is a prominent member and is shown the most because its better to have QUALITY in one character than a stupid QUANTITY of characters
is mentioned of their works nor did they have any impact on the story.
without them, vergil wouldn't have been able to get anything done or explain to us all the things they knew so far
They were practically like the angels.
which can be seen in a potential sequel -__-
They were virtually there to make Vergil more cooler or add more to him as a character or add more dramatic effect when he decides to leave them behind
to show that this perfect vision of vergil that is implanted into player's minds by that point in the game is not so true
so we can judge Vergil but it DOESN'T F*CKING WORK
yes it does because not everyone who played this game is a hardcore fan of the old series -__-
character development is a perfect part of a narrative and since there is a cast of main characters what we have to show for the order, and humans in general, Kat, is well developed
These are just merely missed opportunities and show casings of Tameem's (he wrote it himself) writing skills.
Now onto characters.
Dante in DmC is basically Dante in DMC3. A party boy who just don't give a crap and have no purpose in life but to party and go crazy and doesn't take things seriously but DmC pushed this notion to the extreme. In DmC, in the beginning Dante was literally 10x more of a wild party boy than DMC3 Dante he went out drank, caused fights, had TONS of casual sex with random strippers/prostitutes and fought demons too. He was that douchebag at the party that almost everyone hated (or loved if you were chick turned on by sexy a$$holes) and was an overall juvenile delinquent with a track record. DMC3 Dante though he loved partying he only did out of boredom and doesn't like being bored.
old dante coped with his problem with heavy drinking and according to the manga he slept around too as a younger kid
He wants excitement but nothing in his life was exciting
except for fighting demons, he didn't become powerful by showing for ten years until the beginning of dmc3 where he decided that he was clean enough to go outside and do a ridiculous flip in his chair not to mention that none of what you are saying is directly stated so you are pulling this out of fanfiction -__-
later tries to start up a job/career/his shop for random business (usually mercenary work) to find this excitement.
he already had the excitement stop putting your fanfiction into the story and stop acting like his past was full of "no excitement and that's the reason he started up the business in the first place -__-
He wasn't a party boy like DmC Dante he just wanted excitement in his life...don't we all.
this is what we call a self insert where a person inserts himself into a character's unexplained backstory, and no, i don't crave excitement because i love my life
DMC3 Dante really speaks to the gamer as we play games to find some sort of excitement
WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT, don't say, OMGURRD NT'S STORY ISN'T COHERENT only to derail YOUR OWN POST with some stupid monologue which tries to speak for everyone when in the most likely scenario, it only applies to you directly and you are trying to delude yourself into thinking everyone thinks the way you do, in fact, **** the rest of this stupid INCOHERENT paragraph that i'm leaving up so people can see how stupid it sounds
especially stylish action games so we can easily relate to DMC3 Dante. Plus it suits his tragic past really well as possibly his constant lust for excitement and fuddyduddy attitude is used as a way for him to get over his tragic past of his mother's death and the fact he learns that his brother is alive but potentially evil probably.
From a GAMING NARRATIVE this works much better than making the protagonist an unlikeable prick (Tameem himself stated this Dante is meant to be..MEANT TO BE an a$$hole)
welcome to the world where not every character is a superhero from the start and welcome to the reluctant hero part of the hero's journey -_- something which the old games didn't do at all
Now as progression of character. DmC's came off as sloppy when it came to Dante. They tried to throw in the whole revenge plot like they did in DMC1 as a way to make Dante care or slowly progress him into caring and developing as a character and went with it from there.
which is exactly what they did and which is exactly why this retake is better for a coherent narrative and plot because dante actually develops over time unlike in 2 and 4
However, it failed for after they threw it in there but making him change his own agenda of revenge to it being about freedom and justice but went about it so poorly to the point his whole development felt too structured and written in a step by step process on how to make an unlikeable character likeable.
Step 1: Make him an uncaring, don't take anything seriously party boying a$$hole.
Step 2: Introduce his long lost brother and make him learn about his past and the memories he forgotten.
Step 3: Have him develop a vendetta against main antagonist
Step 4: Make him have a relationship with chick who will make him question his humanity
Step 5: Make him develop a sense of justice from getting a tough decision (killing the child or not killing the child)
Step 6: Make him care about humanity because of one girl being put in danger
Step 7: Now he cares about humanity make him fight his brother and later question his humanity..end game.
GASP, IS THIS WHAT WE WOULD REFER TO AS A HERO'S JOURNEY??????? -__-
Vergil......nope....forget ruining Vergil in the image of DMC1/3 Vergil
pretty sure that the image isn't in dmc1 and 3 vergil which is exactly the point
this Vergil as a character is a rather poorly written character on his own.
as compared to what? the sesshomaru knock off who literally never developed as a character Its mostly of Downfall, where his character from the main story is contradicting now all of a sudden he cares about Kat
there's a difference between not caring and just not acknowledging someone else's accomplishments, vergil did not acknowledge kat's contributions to his cause as much as dante did
despite trying to abandon her before
he knew that there was nothing that they could do to save kat in time, which is why he said "think dante"
then he complains about his mom loving Dante more than him because Dante is better than him.
yeah, its called character development -_- i know this is a far fetched concept for vergil to you know, actually develop as a character, something the old one never did
Now he comes off as petty and a big baby
like you are with this stupid thread only meant to rile people like me up who will actually take the time to debunk your complaints and be done with it
really blaming his defeat to Dante on his mother
he did not blame his defeat to dante on his mother, stop pulling random stuff from your ass
tied into the comic his hatred (cause calling your own mom a whore doesn't signify hatred)
he was just stating it like it was, eva's past is a mystery so for all we know eva really was a whore
for his mom makes no sense nor was it ever properly developed or comes off as pathetic.
like the stupid complaints in this thread
Vergil's character over the course of the story and Downfall just make him seem more pathetic and whiney.
as compared to anime vergil where he never actually develops and dies for the sole purpose of dying since dante doesn't even recognize him in dmc1 until after the fact
Its practically like his DMC3 counterpart because both want to achieve something selfish despite who gets hurt. However, Vergil in DMC3 managed to have honor and some values.
oh honor and values, oh so trying to unleash the demon world by summoning an entire demonic tower that probably killed hundreds of thousands of people during its summoning process, killing unarmed humans in the comic just because they looked at him funny and i mean cutting them up into pieces despite his knowledge that his is better than them, including a blinded demon who he could've easily ignored but decided to kill anyway and then used his body as a punching body to test out a new weapon, even attacking a human girl, and trying to kill anyone who called him out on his bullshit like arkam, is your idea of honors and values, wow, you don't know anything about honor or values then
This Vergil is dirty, cheap, manipulative,
just like the old vergil
though good traits as a villain but are used so wrong to the point he becomes unlikeable even as a villain.
oh i see that rulebook includes the villains must not be assholes rule
Plus people say this Vergil is better because he have clear motifs unlike his DMC3 self who wants power for the sake of power well..WRONG.
you just explained why this entire thread is stupid with that sentence
First of the 2 Vergils have different motivations for their actions and ones motivations/reasoning must be higher to meet the logic behind your goals or motivations.
despite the old vergil not having any clear motives or character development and was developed as much as a rock in a piece of scenery
Lastly, Kat.....man I'm tired. Yes Kat is a weak female protagonist.
compared to what, kyrie, or trish, two undeveloped characters because of japanese style writing
She is just to help boost up and empower the main male protagonist
and is developed in her own right as her back story is clear unlike and shown and talked about
people go on about how she is not oversexualized like Trish and Lady in DMC4 when they tend to ignore how often she bends over
because bending over to spray the ground with spray paint, (insert stupid squirrel semen joke (because for some reason no one is aware that witch spells especially wiccan ones are disgusting) here) is totally unnatural for a human being right, or ducking under and entrance -__- as compared to dead or alive style boob physics
how extremely short her jeans are for no reason,
because its easy to get around in them and those are a type of fashion that girls where
implied rape signifying to have a female protagonist they need to be physically or sexually abused
because being attacked by a demon which cause nightmares, which btw, is the original belief for the cause of nightmares. is SOOO out of the ordinary right?
Being oversexualized doesn't mean just having big tits you know
in the old series it did
Kat was JAILBAIT...skinny, fragile girl
just because a girl is skinny doesn't mean she's fragile, didn't know that feeling pain from being shot meant she was fragile, or being tortured by demons and feeling pain, btw, she's over 18
with a rather exposing top
she has a very small amount of cleavage compared to any other character in the series -__-
meant to be a more subtle piece of ass.
you are confusing sexism with having a character that is attractive just because she is attractive and has normal attire that shows a little bit of cleavage LIKE A NORMAL GIRL WOULD doesn't mean that she's sexualized, hell dante is more sexualized than kat
Now back to her character, as a defining female character in an action game especially DMC she is much below Trish, Lady, and even Lucia.
not even gonna justify why this is wrong on so many levels
If Capcom wanted great writing they should've contacted them not this failure of a company (narrative as their strong point my ass).
yeah no NT is definitely not a failure of a company and you have no right to insult them for doing their job -_- now go back to your stupid fanfiction where dante made dmc because he was bored with his life and needed excitement -_-
