DMC3 remake idea

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@LordOfDarkness
If it makes you feel better, i saw the discussion about the merit of DMC3's story as an evolution of my topic.

I thought bringing back the light novel and placing it before DMC3 was a way of improving the story of DMC as a whole. We just started talking about other ways it could be done (or whether or not it should be done).
 
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That epiphany with Lady was about making him realize how it's his responsibility and his duty to stop his brother cause he's his kin. Something strictly concerning that specific story. Not meant to set up the reason why he is a demon hunter. He already was one and he didn't forget why he is, as I explained above. That epiphany and him being a demon hunter because of his mother ain't mutually exclusive concepts.
I can understand that. However, his reaction to seeing Vergil in the manga, knowing that Vergil was sided with demons, and threatening to kill him* doesn't match up with "he didn't realize it was his responsibility until he saw Lady's struggle". This is his dialogue in the manga's scanlation:

"Long lost brothers dropping in from nowhere, back from the grave." (Vergil denies ever being dead.) "Is that so? Sorry, must have been me not getting the memo." (He calls Vergil "a corpse" later.)
"Nah, let me show you around." (He points his sword directly at Vergil.) "Demon extermination is my specialty."
(After Vergil tells him his plan) "Have you lost it? Reopening the passage our old man sealed?"
(After Vergil says "This is the only way.") "The hell? Way to what? A tour? A safari? A haunted house? I ain't laughing!"
"Vergil... Mother was killed by demons." (Dante has his back turned. Vergil says "I know", and Dante immediately turns around to point his gun at him.)
"A man like you reduced to a demon's pawn. How sad."

And these are the quotes I could find belonging to the Tokyopop version, in no particular order, since I don't have that version on hand:

"Vergil... Don't make me have to kill you."
"I knew you weren't right, Vergil. But I never thought you'd throw in with the bastards that murdered our mother."

*The one I can't seem to place, but I know it was said and it's absent in the scanlation, is "Fitting we meet in a graveyard. Convenient too, since you won't be leaving." which is attributed to Vergil on a Quotes page, but I recall it being Dante that said it due to speech bubble placement. Once I get the Tokyopop version I'll revise it.

The point is, the manga gives plenty of evidence that he cared enough to take things seriously-- "I ain't laughing!" and the conversation between them according to the JP text is somber. That he calls Vergil "reduced to a demon's pawn" and remarks that it's "sad", IMO, doesn't align with "He didn't think it was his responsibility". That conversation wouldn't have happened if it wasn't.
 
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As I said, I haven't read the manga, so I can't comment on it. Also, as I understand, the game wasn't developed around the manga, so there's that. And between the games and any other media, since the games are the source material, they should take precedence when there's conflicting information, shouldn't they?
 
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@LordOfDarkness
Oh, lord... (not you). If you got the hammer don't be afraid to use it.

@WolfOD64
@Morgan
Alright, calm down. We get it, you don't like DMC3's story. That doesn't make it bad, just means it's not to your liking, we'll live.

As much as I'd like to have the last word on this Eva thing it's well enough time to end it. This line of dialogue no longer has any actual bearing to the topic. In your case, Wolf, anything and everything that is said about it seems to just be more evidence to you. Just reading a few sentences I very much get the impression that saying one thing is proof and saying the opposite is even more so, and insulting, to boot, but we'll have to agree to disagree and end it with respecting each other's opinions. No one wins, the thread survives.
 
As I said, I haven't read the manga, so I can't comment on it. Also, as I understand, the game wasn't developed around the manga, so there's that. And between the games and any other media, since the games are the source material, they should take precedence when there's conflicting information, shouldn't they?
The game wasn't developed around the manga, but the game specifically references it with "it's been nearly a year since we last met" and the manga was made purposely to fill in the year ago events and explain why the characters are the way they are. Someone else said it earlier, it's supposed to "explain the animosity between the brothers". Until Capcom replaces or contradicts it with more canon material the same way they replaced the novel with 3, it is canon, otherwise people wouldn't be suggesting "Read the manga for more information about the twins". "Read the manga but skip a bunch of the characterization in it" doesn't come across to me as a good suggestion to make, no offense.

Now, I've found a transcript of Tokyopop's manga on the PlayStation forums. Frankly, I think the Tokyopop version has bad dialogue from their insistence on making Dante curse like a sailor and hit on twelve-year old girls, but this isn't entirely about that. I'll post the lines that match up with the above scanlation.

"Well, this is just a coincidence. Running into you like this, big bro. Fitting we meet in a graveyard. Convenient too, since you won’t be leaving." (This quote is definitely attributed to Dante. So he pretty seriously threatened to kill his presumed-dead brother.)

"Not as sorry as you’re gonna be. I don’t usually kill demons for free. But in your case? I’ll do it for free." (This takes the place of the above "I'll show you around. Demon extermination is my specialty" line. Combined with the action of pointing his sword at Vergil, he pretty much threatened to kill him. Again.)

(After Vergil tells him his plan) "Are you insane? [...] First of all, no one trembles at the name “Vergil”. Second, no one knows what that old legend means."
(Vergil's "This is the only way." is replaced with "But I do. And I'm going to open the door.") "And where is this door located? Wait, let me guess, a haunted castle? No, a mausoleum! Those demons do love their old chestnuts…"

"Vergil, don’t make me have to kill you." (This line replaces "Vergil... Mother was killed by demons." Vergil's "I know" is replaced with "You're welcome to try.")
"Don’t do this Vergil."

"I knew you weren’t right Vergil…but I never thought you’d throw in with the bastards that murdered our mother!" (replaces the above "Reduced to a demon's pawn" line.)

"The amulet. Vergil, give it back. Its not too late for you…come on!!"

For some unspecified reason, Tokyopop was intent on blocking out any mention of (or references to) Dante's mother. Dante's spiel in Vol 2 just after Alice appears in his office is this nonsense:

"Sigh...kids today, no manners, I tell ya! Runnin’ wild, hopped up on the dope, with their hula hoops, demon rituals and Neil Sedaka records... I tell ya…the whole goddamn world…would be better off with mandatory sterilization." Then after the amulet was stolen, "My amulet! All right, you creepy little Linda Blair wannabe, I’m about to put you on a permanent time out! –leaves and slams the door- $hit!"

While the scanlation had:

"Didn't your mother ever scold you? Don't go barging into other people's homes! ... Geez, I thought with all these holes, even a thief wouldn't come in here. ... Can't count the number of times she got ****ed off at me. 'Put it back when you've finished using it.' 'If you broke something, you'd better fix it, mister!'" And after the amulet is stolen, "My amulet! Didn't your mother ever teach you not to steal people's things!? –leaves and slams the door- Damn!"

On the level of trustworthiness and faithful translations, they're on Mangastream/Binktopia and AnimeLabs's level. That ain't a compliment.
 
Alright, so now I'd like to get back to the actual topic.
@Morgan, I just saw your post - started to write this before it popped up - and while I got things to say about this whole manga thing, quite frankly, it's evening here and I ain't got the patience to go through it. I can tell it would turn into one of those super long and dragged out discussions that I've come to despise. And the mods would call us out anyway. Already did.

no offense

None taken, none taken.

@Z218
I was re-reading your opening post. And you know, your idea... Does it really take a remake for that? I mean, correct me if I got the wrong impression, but it seemed to me that you mainly want to see the novel adapted into something and fit in, right? Wouldn't another kind of production, maybe a more affordable one like another anime or an animated movie be better suited for that?
 
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Alright, getting back to the original topic. I still do maintain my stance that a DMC3 remake would need a better handle on its dialogue to remove cringeworthy redundancies and better signify character development.

I'll skip the most contentious example and go with this one-- Arkham calling himself Lady's "dear Papa", and then later proclaiming her his daughter. In one word? Duh. Papa means father in so many languages it's easier to list which ones don't have that or similar sounds. Sure, it's not "You were almost a Jill sandwich" levels of bad but we still don't need a character doing an "I am your father" reveal twice in the same minute. Instead of "darling daughter" it could be "It was I who gave you your name... Mary!" Bam, we know her name, we already knew they were father and daughter, and her telling Dante "I don't have a name!" later on serves to show how much distance she's putting between herself and her dad instead of reaffirming that no character mentioned her name yet.

Also depending on just how Canon the Note of Naught art book is to DMC3 I'll revise my statement about Gilver being more evil than Vergil. That book says DMC3 used the same concept as DMC2 in that any humans in the -- lemme copypaste-- "the citizens in the city where Temen-Ni-Gru appeared (and where Dante lives) have transformed into lesser demons (the seven sins) due to being consumed by corruption and darkness. The other reason for citizens not being shown in this game was due to the PS2's technological capabilities."

So, Dante killed people. Possibly kids too. But more importantly, Vergil was complicit in a plot that did the same thing to the citizens that Gilver did in the novel, turning random humans into demons against their will by unsealing the Demon World on them. That sounds... pretty damning.
 
@Foxtrot94
If it was just to bring the novel back into continuity then you'd be right. You could just place it in between 3 and 1. You could have a plot where Dante has to revisit that part of his past, allowing you to selectively use the novel and give the impression it all fits. Which could be done in a case of the week episode for another season. It wouldnt need to be a remake because its not attached to an existing game. It be another sidestory like the anime or aduio dramas etc.

My idea was to have the novel specifically take place before DMC3 so i just felt having a reworked DMC3 was the easist way to get that new version to the player.
 
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That is maybe something that COULD go into a DMC3 remake, though, isn't it? Giving Dante back his sense of purpose?

I kind of feel like some of the fumbling of his character stems from a lack of understanding of Kamiya's original concept. Kamiya once said (and the first games and novels reinforce it) that Dante purposefully acts cocky partially because he really is that confidant and partially because it's just an act intended to throw off his enemies.
I'm partial to the belief that DMC3 was supposed to be the game explaining Dante's purpose or final sway into becoming the demon hunter we see in the first game....or at least, it appears the plot was intended that way. So him "getting back his sense of purpose" by game's end was supposedly something he did achieve, albeit in a poorly-presented fashion that directly contradicts everything established in DMC1. The only way I see of them fixing this in a remake is to do what the novel or DmC did, where he "forgets" or loses sight of his purpose in some way...anything else would come off as an implication that Eva's death isn't what motivated him to take up demon hunting, which would dismantle what is arguably Dante's defining trait.

And really, your assessment of the writers having insufficient understanding of Kamiya's perception of the character is something that also can be remedied if DMC3 was remade. Dante's persona in the game, like it or not, isn't really consistent with how he acts in 1 or the anime. It's too far over the top and comes off as a transparent and poor attempt of recapturing the cocky elements of Dante's character in the first game. But the fact that it was the ONLY character trait they decided to emphasize really makes it seem they only understood that aspect of Kamiya's Dante. They didn't incorporate his honorable or more professional aspects at all, things that, surprisingly, the novels actually did pretty well.

So, really, I think the most effective solution would be to either find someone akin to the novels' author who understands the original Dante better, or get Kamiya to supervise his characterization. That would be the closest we'd get to having an authentic origin story for Dante that's consistent with the first game, and properly achieve what DMC3 was trying to attempt.

In your case, Wolf, anything and everything that is said about it seems to just be more evidence to you. Just reading a few sentences I very much get the impression that saying one thing is proof and saying the opposite is even more so, and insulting, to boot, but we'll have to agree to disagree and end it with respecting each other's opinions. No one wins, the thread survives.
That's perfectly fine. Really, everything I ranted about is in need of a proper, individual thread anyway. I hope you didn't take any of that as hostility towards you or anyone on this thread.

It was more me vocalizing my frustration with DMC3's writers, if nothing else.

The game wasn't developed around the manga, but the game specifically references it with "it's been nearly a year since we last met" and the manga was made purposely to fill in the year ago events and explain why the characters are the way they are. Someone else said it earlier, it's supposed to "explain the animosity between the brothers". Until Capcom replaces or contradicts it with more canon material the same way they replaced the novel with 3, it is canon, otherwise people wouldn't be suggesting "Read the manga for more information about the twins". "Read the manga but skip a bunch of the characterization in it" doesn't come across to me as a good suggestion to make, no offense.
See, this is why whenever anyone tries to defend DMC3's plot with the manga, I never take it seriously. The manga was written several months after the game, and there was no way Bingo Morihashi or the other scenario writers for the game had it in mind when penning the script for 3. It's even worse when people try to defend things like Vergil's non-existent motives or the lack of any illumination of him and Dante's relationship in the game by referncing the manga, when there's so many rampant inconsistencies contained with in it.

In fact, if DMC3 is ever remade, it should avoid incorporating elements from the manga at all costs. If there's anything vital to the plot that can't fit, whoever writes the plot should provide some kind of companion novel like DMC4: Deadly Fortune. Then, at least, there'd be a legitimate source to reference.

Alright, getting back to the original topic. I still do maintain my stance that a DMC3 remake would need a better handle on its dialogue to remove cringeworthy redundancies and better signify character development.
This. All of this.

Too much of DMC3's vital narrative elements are left up to implication, even by admittance of people that try to defend it. Whenever Dante's growth or Vergil's motives are ever called into question, the go-to response from apologists is: "Well, it's implied because of this" or "You have to read between the lines to understand this."

It shouldn't be the job of fans to dissect a script to find out what the vital propellants of the plot are. That's a fault of in cohesive dialogue and/or poor script planning. One of the common misconceptions people have about me when it comes to DMC3 is that I hate the story itself, when that couldn't be farther from the truth. It's HOW the story ended up being told---it has plenty of really good ideas, Vergil's character and the establishment of Dante's development being two of them, and are elements that could benefit from some slight tweaks and a better means of translating that to dialogue.

I think even the people who actually like the third game's plot would consider this a necessary improvement. There's nothing wrong with revising a script for the sake of better establishing clarity. RPG remakes do this all the time...even Square Enix acknowledged how poorly the script for Final Fantasy VII had aged when going into the remake, and are employing alterations to it to make it more serious for a modern remake.

With how implicit and frustratingly-vague DMC's story can sometimes be, I don't think I'm alone in thinking this would be a positive change.

Also depending on just how Canon the Note of Naught art book is to DMC3 I'll revise my statement about Gilver being more evil than Vergil. That book says DMC3 used the same concept as DMC2 in that any humans in the -- lemme copypaste-- "the citizens in the city where Temen-Ni-Gru appeared (and where Dante lives) have transformed into lesser demons (the seven sins) due to being consumed by corruption and darkness. The other reason for citizens not being shown in this game was due to the PS2's technological capabilities."
Really? That's an interesting narrative and technical explanation for the lack of denizens in the city.

I wonder if a DMC3 Remake would show those citizens transforming or running from the scene of Temen-Ni-Gru's ascension, now that they could develop it for a console more powerful than the PS2.

So, Dante killed people. Possibly kids too. But more importantly, Vergil was complicit in a plot that did the same thing to the citizens that Gilver did in the novel, turning random humans into demons against their will by unsealing the Demon World on them. That sounds... pretty damning.
Yeah, really puts Vergil's whole "being honorable" thing into question, but I'm not opening THAT rotting can of worms again.


Retreading close to topic, though, I think one thing a DMC3 remake could also benefit from would be a redo of the motion-capture and voice-acting. Not just because Lady's new voice actress could be used, but also because....and I know I'm gonna get blasted for this...I think Reuben Langdon's performance in 3 kind of sucks.

It just sounds so much more nasally and try-hard in DMC3 than it does in the anime, 4, OR Marvel vs. Capcom 3, and clashes with his perfect delivery in those games. I think redoing his lines would actually benefit the game quite a bit. (They can keep Daniel Southworth's clips from 3, though. They sound virtually identical to his delivery in DMC4 and don't need re-recording).

I also think the addition of some more combat tracks would be welcome. I can't be the only one who finds unbelievable tedium in hearing "Taste the Blood" every single time you enter combat with every enemy that isn't a Boss.
 
I'm probably repeating a lot of other people from upthread here but my thoughts on the matter:

If nothing else someone redoing the DMC3 script could pick up the novels as essential reading or even watch the anime. I thought Dante in the anime was characterized reasonably well for his DMC1 self (the stuff going on around him was low-stakes and kind of boring and the anime as well underutilized the source material's lore but that's another conversation).

When I say give him back his sense of purpose I mean I think they should do it from the word go. From the start he should be a hunter following a demonic scent and purposefully getting involved because the Temen-ni-gru fiasco is a matter of family.

That would make it a story set before DMC1 but NOT an origin story. I would love a game where you play as Dante in his Anthony "Tony" Redgrave days, learning who and what he is and regaining long suppressed traumatic memories but I doubt Capcom would ever make that game. It's too bad because as @WolfOD64 said an amnesia story is probably the best vehicle for a Dante origin.

DMC3 never felt right as a TRUE origin story anyway. He already had the Devil May Cry at the beginning, it just didn't have a name. Obviously he'd already started down the hunter's path at this point.

It should instead be the origin of the rivalry between the twins, which it isn't. Not really, anyway, as @Morgan has already addressed in some detail. Could a rewrite go into that more? Yeah, I think so.

Take the focus off Dante finding himself and his purpose, which he should already have, refocus it on him and Vergil and their relationship. A big step to this, I think, would be casting aside the manga in favor of a more cohesive narrative in the game proper. DMC3 should be about the first time Dante lays eyes on his brother after a decade or so.
 
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@WolfOD64 @RadiantWolf
Contrary opinion. They should keep an element from the manga in the series. That being, Dante's Japanese characterization. That suffered the worst from poor translation efforts and the game's existence. Building off of that characterization, we do end up with the closest thing to DMC1's Dante. JP Dante cracks a few jokes and his love of tomato juice makes him quirkier than "PIZZA AND BEER LOL SO 'MURRICAN", but he knew when to be serious, such as his questioning Vergil's motives (see: 2 posts ago) and the mission to rescue Alice had him actually being concerned for her. Among other things.

Comparison time!

JP Dante: "Hand Alice over already. I don't have any more tomato juice at home, you see."*
EN Dante: "Listen.. You're a loon. I get that. Hell, one time I got so wasted I proposed to a mop. So I'm not one to judge. That said, nutty or not, I'll feng shui this room with your diseased brains if you don't give me the girl."


JP Dante: "For tea time, I'd be good with just tomato juice."
EN Dante: "Call me when you've got pizza and a keg. In that order."

JP Dante: "Well that's nice of you, but NO thanks."
EN Dante: "Pal... You can shove that teapot... Up your rabbit hole!"

[JP Version]
Dante: "You better stop. It's no use."
Alice: "No... This tastes really good..."
Dante: "If you keep doing it you won't be able to go back."
Alice: "Go back? There's no way I'd go back!"

[EN Version]
Dante: "Y'know, a hickey would've been just fine. You'll be getting a bill from my tailor."
Alice: "No! I will suck you dry!"
Dante: "Damn. Any other time, a chick tellin' me that would be a good thing."
Alice: "I must do this! I'll never go back!"

[JP Version]
White Rabbit: "I'd like you to hand over that amulet."
Dante: "Rabbits should stick to eating grass."

[EN Version]
White Rabbit: "I want to buy that amulet."
Dante: "And I want a smaller dick. I guess we're both assed out, huh?"

So I'm saying the difference between JP and EN Dante is like the one between Drew Coombs's and Reuben Langdon's interpretations. Cocky, cheesy, but honorable and ultimately concerned with doing good vs. Overly cocky and vulgar at inappropriate moments for cheap laughs, with vague shades of his DMC1 characterization when they remember he's supposed to be the same guy.
 
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And...that's why Tokyopop is in bad sheets now!Dialogues in Tokyopop's version don't match and don't make sense at all.The translator just put what he though it was cool Dante to say and not what Dante was actually saying. By now nobody pays attention to the english version anymore.
Don't forget too how Vergil ( in jp version) looks at Alice with reproval, just saying"is that what you wanted?" , while TP version has him calling her every kind of things, wh*re included, followed by a " I'm tired of you, as all men will be in the future about you!", giving hints of pedophile undertones to it.
 
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I think I knew this about the Tokyopop translation but had forgotten. Yeah, I wouldn't mind them keeping him with the ability to act more serious in situations that call for it.

I feel like Capcom has almost written itself into a corner with him. Nero was introduced to be an introductory character for new fans but I also think he was brought in to have a character who could be emotional and serious at times to up the drama. That makes me sad because there is no reason Dante could not have been that character for them. (Not that I dislike Nero, I actually like the guy quite a bit).
 
@RadiantWolf
I think Itsuno actually said something along the lines of them introducing Nero cause they got tired of Dante, and it's hard to work with a character that you are burned out on.
Itsuno was also more into making Dragon's Dogma at the time, so now that his heart is in place, maybe Dante and DMC in general will be an easier task to tackle. Heck, maybe they even take it past DMC2, introduce Hell levels alongside more history of demons and Sparda's family and so on. And bring back Lucia.
 
Well if that's true then it is tragically obvious. Dante's plot in DMC4 was woefully undercooked. I seem to remember hearing that the game was, for a while, going to show how Dante became the creature he is in 2. Something horrible was supposed to happen to him in 4 while we were playing Nero.

Don't quote me on that, though, because I cannot for the life of me remember where I heard this. It might be another he said-she said-etc
 
Well if that's true then it is tragically obvious. Dante's plot in DMC4 was woefully undercooked. I seem to remember hearing that the game was, for a while, going to show how Dante became the creature he is in 2. Something horrible was supposed to happen to him in 4 while we were playing Nero.

Don't quote me on that, though, because I cannot for the life of me remember where I heard this. It might be another he said-she said-etc
This rumor has actually been circling the fandom for so long that it's impossible to tell if it's true or not, or for that matter which parts are true. I do remember that it had to do with the full DT shown in the artbook, that Dante was going to go berserk and the second half of the game would feature Hell.
 
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Yeah, that's the one.

Dante goes berserk, kills some of his friends, Nero puts an end to the rampage somehow. Or doesn't.

Honestly THAT story would be more cohesive to me. I'd happily play Nero for an entire game with that narrative arc.

Maybe a future game.

Devil Trigger has always been an interesting mechanic to me and I wished the story incorporated it more, which, hey, there is an option for DMC3's hypothetical revisit too since that had baby's first devil trigger in it.
 
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Well if that's true then it is tragically obvious. Dante's plot in DMC4 was woefully undercooked. I seem to remember hearing that the game was, for a while, going to show how Dante became the creature he is in 2. Something horrible was supposed to happen to him in 4 while we were playing Nero.

Don't quote me on that, though, because I cannot for the life of me remember where I heard this. It might be another he said-she said-etc
If it helps, the concept art book had a Perfect Devil Trigger form for Dante plus a blurb that it was part of a plot where Dante would lose complete control over his Devil self but was scrapped because the story wasn't right for it just yet. The "terrible thing" could have been that he stopped being able to distinguish friend from foe and people died as a result (including Lady and especially Trish, whose silhouette is on his coin in 2). Then the whole Lucia plot with her fearing that she'd become a monster gives Dante an added layer of character since he's actually been there before, instead of him being a total stranger that magically consoles her by repeating a catchphrase.

Edit: I got Ninja'd. Damn. Knew I should've typed faster. :P
 
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including Lady and especially Trish, whose silhouette is on his coin in 2
Kamiya already explained that silhouette was not Trish, but a "cool girl" he imagined as a symbol for DMC. Their similitude is pure coincidence. But yeah, you're right! having Dante struggling with his devil side would be interesting to see.
 
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Dante would lose complete control over his Devil self but was scrapped because the story wasn't right for it just yet. The "terrible thing" could have been that he stopped being able to distinguish friend from foe and people died as a result
I've may have said this before, but that totally reminds me of the "Corpse Shell" in Tales of Xillia 2. A demonic transformation that allows the protagonist to overcome the mysterious monsters throughout the story, only to discover that...
The monsters you've been destroying were heroes who had used the Corpse Shell too many times, becoming the very monsters they once fought. After learning that the protagonist becomes very reluctant to use that power unless he really has to.
 
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