DmC. What was missing?

[OppressedWriter]

You've demonstrated table hopper, that's it.

Flipper doesn't appear to be there, mustang is gone but admittedly it's no longer necessary now that maintaining an air combo is so incredibly easy, and the sky star animation windup makes former high level techs like star rave no longer viable. and as always, the aggressive nature of air trick has been gutted out in favor of a much slower mechanic which, due to removal of hard lock, is very imprecise unless you're only fighting one thing.

Out of 5 existing moves found only in the trickster style, at most 2 of them are present.

Again, with the same argument, Mustang doesn't work in the air, its just a sky star with an enemy step. Stop counting it as some move that's missing, you can do the same thing in DmC you can get near an enemy in the air and enemy step. Flipper is a joke and has no purpose being in a DmC game, there is like zero videos of high level players showing off their getting hit and recovering skills.

So, Out of 3 moves, DmC "Dante" has 2.5, albeit at a slower speed. Table hopper requires an attack to be evaded, where as angel dodge/dash can be done at anytime and also in the air in any direction. That's the truth. If you admit that then we're actually finished.

And hard lock is a joke, show one video where somebody is specifically targeting an enemy in a group for a combo video. I mean if you're toggling through enemies with hardlock, its going to destroy your momentum. That's why you rarely see it. So the constant bringing up of this issue makes me think you haven't played DmC much or at all, because choosing the wrong target is rarely an actual issue, in fact if you really compare the two objectively, its much easier and faster to choose the right target in DmC than it is in DMC4 when in the heat of battle.

So, by all counts, Hard lock is a travesty in how it works in DMC4, it rarely picks the right target, and it also fails to center the camera on the target you choose.

 

[Stylish Nero]

So, I ask you again. Are you finished here? Or do you want to change the subject again? Because as far as I'm concerned, your disinterest in talking about trickster means we've resolved that issue. So, we can both agree DmC has Trickster, that is a fact, and its better in DmC than DMC4. Are we done now?


"Ohh gee I didn't know there were some moves in DmC that weren't named. Mind telling me what they are?"

I don't know maybe the combo I show side by side next to Rebellion Combo B, that isn't actually a combo that is listed in the DmC Combo list (Death Coil + trillion stabs).

Oh you mean Rebellion Combo B. The same way how DmC counts combos where its the first part of one weapon and the last part of another weapon say Cleaver (Rebellion YYY pause Osiris YYY).

Plus the DMC4 Rebellion Combo B has an unique extra attack animation Dante swings the sword around before pulling off Million Stabs. So technically its a different combo from just Combo A with Million Stabs.

Wait since when can you pull off Death Coil and finish it with Trillion Stabs without having to go through Stinger first?

Other than one combo for Rebellion that kind of matters mind telling me any more moves in DMC4 that were pointlessly named.

 

[OppressedWriter]

Oh you mean Rebellion Combo B. The same way how DmC counts combos where its the first part of one weapon and the last part of another weapon say Cleaver (Rebellion YYY pause Osiris YYY).

Plus the DMC4 Rebellion Combo B has an unique extra attack animation Dante swings the sword around before pulling off Million Stabs. So technically its a different combo from just Combo A with Million Stabs.

Wait since when can you pull off Death Coil and finish it with Trillion Stabs without having to go through Stinger first?

Other than one combo for Rebellion that kind of matters mind telling me any more moves in DMC4 that were pointlessly named.

It won't matter, because it will never be enough for you.

As to your other point, about DmC, actually, it doesn't do what your stating, it only labels it as a combo to distinguish it for the player in training mode. It doesn't label it as a separate combo in its abilities tab and one you have to purchase with any upgrade points/orbs.

So you're wrong. But I'm sure you'll find a way to act and declare being right even in this situation.

Funny thing is, its so sad that some of you persist in being so stubborn, because it makes my responses seem like I don't admire combat related things in DMC4, when in fact I do a lot.

I just think DmC brings them and applies them to characters in a way that makes more sense with much better controls.

 

[Kam]

Again, with the same argument, Mustang doesn't work in the air, its just a sky star with an enemy step. Stop counting it as some move that's missing, you can do the same thing in DmC you can get near an enemy in the air and enemy step. Flipper is a joke and has no purpose being in a DmC game, there is like zero videos of high level players showing off their getting hit and recovering skills.

So, Out of 3 moves, DmC "Dante" has 2.5, albeit at a slower speed. Table hopper requires an attack to be evaded, where as angel dodge/dash can be done at anytime and also in the air in any direction. That's the truth. If you admit that then we're actually finished.

And hard lock is a joke, show one video where somebody is specifically targeting an enemy in a group for a combo video. I mean if you're toggling through enemies with hardlock, its going to destroy your momentum. That's why you rarely see it. So the constant bringing up of this issue makes me think you haven't played DmC much or at all, because choosing the wrong target is rarely an actual issue, in fact if you really compare the two objectively, its much easier and faster to choose the right target in DmC than it is in DMC4 when in the heat of battle.

So, by all counts, Hard lock is a travesty in how it works in DMC4, it rarely picks the right target, and it also fails to center the camera on the target you choose.

mustang works exactly the same in the air as it does on the ground. Flipper completely negates a knockdown animation, I don't even know why you would pretend this isn't useful in a fast paced combat game. Your notion that not seeing a hit recovery used in high level combos indicating uselessness is absurd.

Out of 5 moves, I see one making a reappearance. Unless you can show me using examples why I should consider angel dodging more like dashing than table hopping? Saying "it's the truth" won't make it that way, let's see some examples to back it up.

You seem offended because I won't take your word that everything you say is true. I don't expect you to, that's why I've provided examples for everything I've claimed. You've done nothing but plug your own videos and tell me "that doesn't count because I don't think it's very good"

(before you accuse me of making up that last bit: mustang, flipper, hard lock, gunstinger, backslide, air trick. All of these things you've tried to dismiss as irrelevant because you personally didn't like them)

 

[OppressedWriter]

You seem offended because I won't take your word that everything you say is true. I don't expect you to, that's why I've provided examples for everything I've claimed. You've done nothing but plug your own videos and tell me "that doesn't count because I don't think it's very good"

(before you accuse me of making up that last bit: mustang, flipper, hard lock, gunstinger, backslide, air trick. All of these things you've tried to dismiss as irrelevant because you personally didn't like them)

Whatever, Kam. Stop projecting your own behavior on to me. And me calling you out for your quote is not accusing you of anything if it happens to be true, I like how you preemptively decide that if I were to question your absurd statement about me, it still won't matter because you gave me an equally absurd justification for it.

And for the record, I haven't been plugging videos, I've been showing videos to back up my claims. If anyone is plugging random videos its you, because you're arguing for mechanics it seems you yourself don't even use. I didn't dismiss those things because I just don't like them, again, stop spouting nonsense, I gave good reasons as to why they are pointless in a DMC game, mainly because they're redundant and don't offer enough usefulness to actually exist as separate moves. Just having more moves for the sake of more moves dilutes the strength of the all moves in a game. Every move should have a strong purpose and should feel as dramatically different from other moves as possible. This what DmC does it refines and removes redundant moves, it also makes sure the moves it gives characters fit who they are, that's why Vergil receives the teleportation and trick-up ability of Trickster and not Dante. This makes sense thematically with the character. (Ie, Vergil is two-sided, shifty in his alliances, hard to pin down.)

DmC does exactly what Capcom expected it do, it takes the bloat out of the series, and creates elegance where there was chaos.

 

[Stylish Nero]

It won't matter, because it will never be enough for you.

As to your other point, about DmC,actually in fact doesn't do what your stating, it only labels it as a combo to distinguish it for the player in training mode. It doesn't label it as a separate combo in its abilities tab. So you're wrong. But I'm sure you'll find a way to act and declare being right even in this situation.

But they are labeled and named regardless.

I mean there a few tricks in DMC4 that aren't named such as DT Impact, DT Stinger, DT Kick 13, DT Pin Up, and some DT Lucifer moves since though aren't listed are different from the other moves (DT Stinger allows you to go through enemies, DT Kick 13 has extra kick animations, DT Pin Up throws out extra spectral blades, and some Sword Master Lucifer moves allows you summon 3x more spectral blades without having any out on the battlefield already). Similar moves different/altered properties how are they much different from Rebellion Combo B.

Granted I will admit that the Dark Slayer style (Yamato) have 2 moves that are basically the same but at different distances.

But DmC isn't innocent in this regard either. Pay Off is it is pretty similar to Eryx Uppercut (although you can pull it off in the air and is based on timing), I mean Aquila's aerial pause combo is the same as its land pause combo but they're listed as different moves or Arbiter's Flush and Aerial Flush being listed as 2 different moves (same attack....only difference is where your using it) or Drop and Tremor....granted they can be used separately as Drop can be JC but then again all aerial attacks can be JC. I mean when Drop hits the floor it basically turns into Tremor and launches enemies into the air again. It may look different but its practically the same effect.

 

[OppressedWriter]

But they are labeled and named regardless.

I mean there a few tricks in DMC4 that aren't named such as DT Impact, DT Stinger, DT Kick 13, DT Pin Up, and some DT Lucifer moves since though aren't listed are different from the other moves (DT Stinger allows you to go through enemies, DT Kick 13 has extra kick animations, DT Pin Up throws out extra spectral blades, and some Sword Master Lucifer moves allows you summon 3x more spectral blades without having any out on the battlefield already). Similar moves different/altered properties how are they much different from Rebellion Combo B.

.

But it isn't labeled in the abilities tab or any wiki page saying oh DmC has this many moves, the moves list for DMC with an official count only counts the movs you have to purchase and those that are in the actual upgrades tab. That is what we're comparing here. So, like I said, you're still attempting to be right despite being wrong about what you said initially.

And Eryx and Payoff are nothing alike at all. That's like saying High time is the same as Eryx, which is the same as payoff, because well they all launch enemies in the air.

The thing is if we're really going to compare with that kind of scrutiny, I'm all for it, but I want to do it with people who are willing to apply that same rigorous method of finding redundant combos to both DmC and DMC4. But considering I"m the only attempting to do this it seems in this conversation, you'll excuse me, if I find it hard to take you and Kam seriously.

 

[Kam]

Whatever, Kam. Stop projecting your own behavior on to me. And me calling you out for your quote is not accusing you of anything if it happens to be true, I like how you preemptively decide that if I were to question your absurd statement about me, it still won't matter because you gave me an equally absurd justification for it.

And for the record, I haven't been plugging videos, I've been showing videos to back up my claims. If anyone is plugging random videos its you, because you're arguing for mechanics it seems you yourself don't even use. I didn't dismiss those things because I just don't like them, again, stop spouting nonsense, I gave good reasons as to why they are pointless in a DMC game, mainly because they're redundant and don't offer enough usefulness to actually exist as separate moves. Just having more moves for the sake of more moves dilutes the strength of the all moves in a game. Every move should have a strong purpose and should feel as dramatically different from other moves as possible. This what DmC does it refines and removes redundant moves, it also makes sure the moves it gives characters fit who they are, that's why Vergil receives the teleportation and trick-up ability of Trickster and not Dante. This makes sense thematically with the character. (Ie, Vergil is two-sided, shifty in his alliances, hard to pin down.)

DmC does exactly what Capcom expected it do, it takes the bloat out of the series, and creates elegance where there was chaos.

So when someone makes a thread "what's missing" and I list what's missing, telling me there was a good reason for removing it is non sequitur. Telling me they weren't useful is equally irrelevant, and so is telling me the move shouldn't have been there because you didn't like it.

Look at the thread's title. "What's missing" not "plug your videos here and argue over how effective old moves were"
stay on topic, because if you just want to promote yourself and insult me, I have other things I could be doing

 

[OppressedWriter]

So when someone makes a thread "what's missing" and I list what's missing, telling me there was a good reason for removing it is non sequitur. Telling me they weren't useful is equally irrelevant, and so is telling me the move shouldn't have been there because you didn't like it.

Look at the thread's title. "What's missing" not "plug your videos here and argue over how effective old moves were"
stay on topic, because if you just want to promote yourself and insult me, I have other things I could be doing

Take your own advice. Stop harrassing me and accusing me of things I haven't done.

 

[Kam]

Take your own advice. Stop harrassing me and accusing me of things I haven't done.

so you've given up trying to present any kind of facts and you're just going to play victim now? Okay. It was good "talking" with you. Peace out

 

[Stylish Nero]

But it isn't labeled in the abilities tab or any wiki page saying oh DmC has this many moves, the moves list for DMC with an official count only counts the movs you have to purchase and those that are in the actual upgrades tab. That is what we're comparing here. So, like I said, you're still attempting to be right despite being wrong about what you said initially.

And Eryx and Payoff are nothing alike at all. That's like saying High time is the same as Eryx, which is the same as payoff, because well they all launch enemies in the air.

The thing is if we're really going to compare with that kind of scrutiny, I'm all for it, but I want to do it with people who are willing to apply that same rigorous method of finding redundant combos to both DmC and DMC4. But considering I"m the only attempting to do this it seems in this conversation, you'll excuse me, if I find it hard to take you and Kam seriously.

Aren't you practically doing the same?

Yes both are uppercuts with Dante's fist that sends opponents flying onto the air. They're nothing alike.

Oh wait Aerial Buy In, Drop/Tremor, and Aerial Flush aren't listed in the DmC wiki page.

http://devilmaycry.wikia.com/wiki/Aquila

http://devilmaycry.wikia.com/wiki/Arbiter

Yeah man your totally right. I can take you seriously.

 

[OppressedWriter]

so you've given up trying to present any kind of facts and you're just going to play victim now? Okay. It was good "talking" with you. Peace out

You can both PM if it really bothers you so much.

Anyway, back on topic, DmC has trickster just like DMC4. It just lacks the Trick-up ability, which it replaces with angel pull. But other then that its better than DMC4 and mapped with a smarter control scheme.

 

[Kam]

You can both PM if it really bothers you so much.

Anyway, back on topic, DmC has trickster just like DMC4. It just lacks the Trick-up ability, which it replaces with angel pull. But other then that its better than DMC4 and mapped with a smarter control scheme.

the replacement is inferior on all counts. Slow, lacking in style, and poorly suited for setting up air combos unless you're targeting an airborne target (air trick was great for putting an aerial attack in range of a grounded opponent). Sky star (angel lift) is very similar to the original, but only if used a single time. Used repeatedly with fast cancels, such as the star rave tech would demand, its longer windup time becomes increasingly apparent as a shortcoming. It also looks goofy.

 

[VineBigBoss]

Did you even watch my video comparing the dashes of DMC4 vs DmC, its the same movement, same speed, I did not edit any frames, I literally compared both dash/dodges a frame before they start.

Start watching at :30, for the air dashes, wow, look at that air dash its so slowed down.

Mustang / (collide with enemy, Dash) Close in on an enemy by dashing, then use their body as a platform to jump into the air.
Flipper / (knocked back) Flip back into a safe position after being knocked off your feet by enemy attacks.

DmC doesn't count these as moves, because Flipper is nonsense, and Mustang the player can do in two ways, one is um angel dodging(table hopping) whatever freely to the enemy and doing an enemy step, or angel pull to angel lift, which provides the same animation as Mustang. But stop adding numbers to a moveset just because DMC4 felt the need to pad its skill list by defining basic and redundant skills as if they were special moves, it would be like saying oh DMC4 has 18 boss fights, therefore it has more bosses than DmC, but neglecting to mention oh but 12 of those fights are the same boss, because you fight all the bosses three times in one run through.

The comparison between the ground dashes is kinda... weird. You're essentialy cancelling dodge into angel dodge, you're using two different moves cancelled into each other to compare with the effect of one single move. And about angel dodge changing your final direction: you can create the exact same effect cancelling one dodge into another dodge to the opposite direction in DMC4 (it was possible even in DMC3), and its up to three dodges before you have to restart the counter.

The air dashes seens very similar in speed.

About the overall speed of both games combat and movements, ChaserWolf made a fairly well-explained video about it:

 

[aoshi]

DmC's dodge abilities don't make it equivalent to trickster. It's like saying darkslayer is same as trickster since we evade by teleportation. It all comes down to global gaming ability of evading. Table hopper, darkslayer and trickster all allow us to evade with technical differences which combine with overall weapon abilities and arrive at a balance in character.

Trickster in DMC 3/DMC 4 is very technical cuz we lack aerial moves of weapons unless we capitalize on JC or switch to swordmaster in DMC 4. Also trickster is the only air evading mechanic in DMC 3 and 4. Of course , there is air royal guard but guarding is different from evading and requires precise timing. To evade multiple times, we would need to have JCed. But the balance is we can evade multiple times on the ground. We can evade max 3 times in quick succession in DMC 3 and countless times in DT in DMC 4.

But in DmC , there are multiple evading. There is angel glide and there is air evade. Air evade can be performed multiple times without JC. This makes use of angel glide as evading mechanic redundant. Its jus evading gameplay mechanic and its very understandable if aesthetics of trickster are missing in DmC.

 

[Stylish Nero]

You can both PM if it really bothers you so much.

Anyway, back on topic, DmC has trickster just like DMC4. It just lacks the Trick-up ability, which it replaces with angel pull. But other then that its better than DMC4 and mapped with a smarter control scheme.

Care to explain???

I only see that its mapped to a different control scheme and not much different. I'm just comparing DmC Dante's combat mechanics to Dante's combat.

DmC's trickster for Dante isn't the same though.

Outside some missing moves the moves that does mirror other trickster moves aren't as effective or works in the same effect.

The land trickster for both seems even steven segal but the DMC4 Sky Star beats the Angel Glide because with DT you can pull off 3 consecutive Sky Stars and change your direction 2 times and even combine it flawlessly with Trick Up (I'm not sure that is what its called). Plus with mid-air guard canceling you can consecutively cancel and do it over and over again and outside the flashing from orange to red it barely noticeable, dodge canceling tends to be noticeable but it depends on you (I find cancels to better if you can't notice them so easily).

Here is Trickster at full effect and how dynamically it can be used in the air. Air Trick (I think its called) can even be used to dodge attacks so it even has a dodge mechanic in it too. Even if the speed for Angel Glide and Sky Star are the same, Sky Star is more instantaneous and suffers from less action frames so I can easily follow up or cancel it into something else.

I mean you can easily stay in the air with DmC...its much easier than DMC4. Anyone can do it but to me based on what I've done and seen its not as visually appealing. However, not saying DmC isn't stylish. It is stylish especially if you edit your videos properly.

One thing I hate about the Trickster in DmC, is when using the angel dodge in mid air you are still falling down, granted there are other measures to regain more airtime (staying in the air doesn't take skill in DmC).

Also as for your camera issues....I don't know about you but the camera never gave me any problems whenever I locked on to an enemy it will focus and center on him. Maybe its your camera and lock on settings.

 

[Kam]

snip

better comparison, but still doesn't really touch on chaining different attacks together or the speed certain moves can be canceled. I still haven't found a video that does this, and if I can't for much longer I'll probably end up buying a capture card and doing it myself

snip

hah, you have good taste in videos
what he's trying to say is that angel pull is mechanically the same as air trick. Do air trick, arrive next to enemy. Do angel pull, arrive next to enemy. The huge differences are mainly in speed, which angel pull loses no contest

snip

having an airborne evade is a good point that I'd overlooked, thanks for bringing it up. Even if it isn't exact, I suppose this is another element of trickster that made the transition

 

[SugarMoon]

...Wow, that was a really intense debate

I learned so much tonight.

 

[OppressedWriter]

Snip. No point bothering.

 

[Kam]

Well, if you everyone would to try to not level accusations, we could continue having a spirited debate without hostility.

I think Aoshi best understood what I was trying to pretty much say in one way or another. That the basic combat flexibiliy that Trickster provided as it was in DMC4 exists in its own way in DmC.

Also, another reason, I wouldn't simply call it a table hop equivalent is because you don't need to actually dodge an attack in order to utilize angel dodges, it can simply be used to travel large distances fast, much like how Trickster allows you to cover large distances to appear on top of the enemy.

Here I just shot some footage to illustrate more of that idea, and to also show that you can combine calibur + sky star + angel dodge to cover very large distances, also note that I can angel dodge in any direction I please without it being contingent on executing a perfect dodge against an enemy. Simply, put the angel dodge mechanic works both as an actual dodge move and also a way to move around the battlefield with fast speed.

it's the same video you showed us last time, only now you're evading in the air instead of on the ground. Use trickster offensively, that's kind of the whole point of the last 4 pages. You should know, you were there