DmC. What was missing?

[OppressedWriter]

okay good so we're done here.

edit - I'm just making sure. You seriously weren't even impressed by the guy who punched a blitz and just released off of his own attack, but in your eyes dodging an enemy attack and then dodging back into it is the saving grace of DmC trickster?

Its as if you're deliberately trying to be aggressive when there's no need. Stop picking and choosing what DMC4 defines as Trickster. GO back and look at what the Trickster style provides: angel dash, and sky star, and then trick up, right so, DmC has 2 of those and also expands them ever so slightly, and he also has angel pull. Ie DmC Dante has Trickster without the teleport mechanic, however, this teleport mechanic does exist for Vergil, so in totality DmC does have Trickster. It's just spread between characters differently.

 

[Kam]

Its as if you're deliberately trying to be aggressive when there's no need. Stop picking and choosing what DMC4 defines as Trickster. GO back and look at what the Trickster style provides: angel dash, and sky star, and then trick up, right so, DmC has 2 of those and also expands them ever so slightly. Ie DmC Dante has Trickster without the teleport mechanic, however, this teleport mechanic does exist for Vergil, so in totality DmC does have Trickster. It's just spread between characters differently.

I'm not picking and choosing what DMC4 defines as trickster, the DMC community did that long before I even picked up the game. And just so we have a running count:

DMC4 Trickster provides:
- dash (extra dashes during DT)
- sky star (extra sky star during DT)
- air trick (extra trick up during DT)
- mustang (no bonus DT utility)
- flipper (no bonus DT utility)

DmC provides:
- air dash (slowed down, no bonus DT utility)
- table hopper (no bonus DT utility)

I'm not that confident that air dash should even be counted, after all if sky star truly "made it" to the next game, existing sky star techs like star rave should still be just as viable as they were in the classic games. But out of kindness to you, let's count it. So out of five existing trickster perks, DmC has one of them. Maybe two, jury's still out on table hopper.

TL;DR
if asked "what do you feel is missing from DmC", as I was at the start of this thread, my response will again be "all the styles, but at least we get swordmaster"

 

[OppressedWriter]

Did you even watch my video comparing the dashes of DMC4 vs DmC, its the same movement, same speed, I did not edit any frames, I literally compared both dash/dodges a frame before they start.

Start watching at :30, for the air dashes, wow, look at that air dash its so slowed down.

Mustang / (collide with enemy, Dash) Close in on an enemy by dashing, then use their body as a platform to jump into the air.
Flipper / (knocked back) Flip back into a safe position after being knocked off your feet by enemy attacks.

DmC doesn't count these as moves, because Flipper is nonsense, and Mustang the player can do in two ways, one is um angel dodging(table hopping) whatever freely to the enemy and doing an enemy step, or angel pull to angel lift, which provides the same animation as Mustang. But stop adding numbers to a moveset just because DMC4 felt the need to pad its skill list by defining basic and redundant skills as if they were special moves, it would be like saying oh DMC4 has 18 boss fights, therefore it has more bosses than DmC, but neglecting to mention oh but 12 of those fights are the same boss, because you fight all the bosses three times in one run through.

 

[Kam]

Did you even watch my video comparing the dashes of DMC4 vs DmC, its the same movement, same speed, I did not edit any frames, I literally compared both dash/dodges a frame before they start.

(video snipped)

Start watching at :30, for the air dashes, wow, look at that air dash its so slowed down.

Because the length of the total animation in frames is more meaningful than their in game uses? Let's see your star rave showcase then, if you think it's still the same move.

 

[OppressedWriter]

Because the length of the total animation in frames is more meaningful than their in game uses? Let's see your star rave showcase then, if you think it's still the same move.

I will and it will have to be w/ Vergil, which I've stated multiple times, its the attitude with which you dismiss other people's posts that is causing the friction. I'll do my best to do a star rave showcase with Vergil.

As to your point about game usage, if you truly believe what you're saying, then stop padding the move list with nonsense like mustang and flipper being "moves".

I mean imagine if DmC decided Y, Y is a combo, and then Y, Y, Y is a combo, and then Y, Y, Y, Y is a separate combo because technically they're all different.

 

[Kam]

I can't believe I forgot to mention this earlier, but I'll do so now.

Taunt button

I will and it will have to be w/ Vergil, which I've stated multiple times, its the attitude with which you dismiss other people's posts that is causing the friction. I'll do my best to do a star rave showcase with Vergil.

As to your point about game usage, if you truly believe what you're saying, then stop padding the move list with nonsense likemustang and flipper being "moves".

I mean imagine if DmC decided Y, Y is a combo, and then Y, Y, Y is a combo, and then Y, Y, Y, Y is a separate combo because technically they're all different.

At least I'm explaining why I'm dismissing your points, instead of just moving on and pretending you never said anything.

Mustang and flipper were hardly nonsense. Mustang would get you a nice chunk of DT for how easy it was to perform, in addition to being a vital move for those "I'm going to kill everything without ever touching the ground" videos (believe me, much harder in classic DMC than it is in DmC) while flipper is what would allow you to instantly recover from being knocked down. The animation is similar to sky star, but distinct in that you'll see dante players using it after they've taken a hit midair that would normally knock them to the ground, yet somehow they immediately recover.

Oh, and I'm not questioning the dark slayer kit, so a video showcasing vergil's moves would be meaningless in this discussion. We're talking about trickster, not dark slayer.

 

[OppressedWriter]

To further illustrate my point about DMC4 padding its movelist with redundant moves. Rebellion Combo B isn't in DmC, because they didn't feel the need to call everything you do in the game its own combo, but I mimic it with the DmC combat system in this video.

 

[OppressedWriter]

The skills are redundant. Like I said you can both those things in DmC, It's just that DmC didn't feel the need to call everything a move or skill so it could pad its move list. I'm starting to think you don't even read my responses fully before conveniently dismissing them. Unlike you, I"m trying to be reasonable, and posting videos of ME playing, and instead, oh this isn't what I meant I meant this, its as if you only see what you want to see instead of whats right in front of you.

Mustang: I don't care if Mustang provides a nice chunk of DT, its still a stupid move, and you can do it in DmC, they just don't feel the need to call dashing towards an enemy and doing an enemystep its own move. Though it does have a rough equivalent, called angel pull + angel lift, which can at least be chained into a move called payoff.

Oh and Flipper, what exact purpose does it serve that other moves in DMC4 like Royal Guard, and trick up, etc don't already do. And isn't that functionality brought back in DmC with I don't know something like the angel dodge/table hop/recover mechanic. Seriously. Am I talking to someone who's serious about this?

 

[Stylish Nero]

Did you even watch my video comparing the dashes of DMC4 vs DmC, its the same movement, same speed, I did not edit any frames, I literally compared both dash/dodges a frame before they start.

Kind of don't like DmC's Trickster dash (angel evade) because to do it you have to start with the normal dodge animation then use it where as DMC4 Trickster Dash just do it.

Would prefer it that having Angel mode active and pressing dodge instantaneously pulls off the teleport animation rather than dodging plus I think you have to press twice (to dodge then again to teleport/dash).....but I could be wrong.

 

[OppressedWriter]

Kind of don't like DmC's Trickster dash (angel evade) because to do it you have to start with the normal dodge animation then use it where as DMC4 Trickster Dash just do it.

Would prefer it that having Angel mode active and pressing dodge instantaneously pulls off the teleport animation rather than dodging plus I think you have to press twice (to dodge then again to teleport/dash).....but I could be wrong.

Yes, you do, but its fast you can't slowly do it, it's literally the same speed and place you end up as DMC4, but yes, it has extra press. There's no time for actual delay from the player you have to rapidly press dodge twice. So, it shouldn't be a big deal, plus if it worked the way you wished it did it would lose its ability to change dash directions mid dash. For example, you can dodge left and then finish it using the angel dodge mechanic in any other direction. This is because of how it utilizes the table hop mechanic without requiring an evade from an enemy attack.

Also, another thing about Mustang, if I'm not mistaken,
Dash Any Direction+/Any Direction+ (ground) A quick dash that allows you to deftly evade enemy attacks.
Sky Star Any Direction+/Any Direction+ (mid-air) Use magical energy to create a mid-air platform from which you can kick off and move horizontally.
Mustang / (collide with enemy, Dash) Close in on an enemy by dashing, then use their body as a platform to jump into the air.
Flipper / (knocked back) Flip back into a safe position after being knocked off your feet by enemy attacks.
Air Trick ++/++ Aim above an enemy's head and disappear in the blink of an eye with blindingly quick movements.

Mustang only works on the ground, and not in the air, in the air its just doing a skystar (pretty much a dash, but see my point above about DMC4 move padding) and then doing a normal enemy step. It requires the player to dash (dashes only work on the ground) towards the enemy and then does an enemy step(but with a slightly different animation), why this is considered a move is beyond me.

 

[Kam]

The skills are redundant. Like I said you can both those things in DmC, It's just that DmC didn't feel the need to call everything a move or skill so it could pad its move list. I'm starting to think you don't even read my responses fully before conveniently dismissing them. Unlike you, I"m trying to be reasonable, and posting videos of ME playing, and instead, oh this isn't what I meant I meant this, its as if you only see what you want to see instead of whats right in front of you.

Mustang: I don't care if Mustang provides a nice chunk of DT, its still a stupid move, and you can do it in DmC, they just don't feel the need to call dashing towards an enemy and doing an enemystep its own move. Though it does have a rough equivalent, called angel pull + angel lift, which can at least be chained into a move called payoff.

Oh and Flipper, what exact purpose does it serve that other moves in DMC4 like Royal Guard, and trick up, etc don't already do. And isn't that functionality brought back in DmC with I don't know something like the angel dodge/table hop/recover mechanic. Seriously. Am I talking to someone who's serious about this?

Did you just imply that the ability to instantly recover from a knockback or knockdown hit is meaningless? Do you care so much about being right that you're willing to make absurd statements like this?

I wouldn't expect you to see the appeal in mustang; if you started in DmC the notion of another move that can extend air combos seems redundant, so you'll just have to take my word for it that it was much harder back then than it is now

 

[OppressedWriter]

Did you just imply that the ability to instantly recover from a knockback or knockdown hit is meaningless? Do you care so much about being right that you're willing to make absurd statements like this?

I wouldn't expect you to see the appeal in mustang; if you started in DmC the notion of another move that can extend air combos seems redundant, so you'll just have to take my word for it that it was much harder back then than it is now

To answer your first question, yes.

As to your second question, maybe you should ask yourself that question. I'm the one providing proof, conceding where there is reason to concede, you're the one making excuses and changing goal posts.

Now back to what was being discussed. Again, I feel like you don't even know the mechanics, Mustang does not work the way you think it does in the air.

As for the recovery of a knockback, what combo video of a stylish player is showing off their ability to take hits and knock back, its a useless skill, because once you're good enough you're usually not getting hit in a DMC game combo video. I thought you were reasonable but I'm starting to think otherwise.

Also, I am playing DMC4 right now, those videos are from me, so trust me I know its hard as hell to stay in the in the air DMC4. That's not what is being discussed here. We're discussing the overall value of skills and their approximate equivalents in DmC. However, assuming you're right, the purpose of that skill is staying in the air in DMC4, and since staying in the air is not an issue in DmC, that skill is admittedly useless and not in the game.

 

[Stylish Nero]

Yes, you do, but its fast you can't slowly do it, it's literally the same speed and place you end up as DMC4, but yes, it has extra press. There's no time for actual delay from the player you have to rapidly press dodge twice. So, it shouldn't be a big deal, plus if it worked the way you wished it did it would lose its ability to change dash directions mid dash. For example, you can dodge left and then finish it using the angel dodge mechanic in any other direction. This is because of how it utilizes the table hop mechanic without requiring an evade from an enemy attack.

No not really if the player can manipulate how the combat system is set up such as pulling off a normal dodge but mid-dodge switch to angel mode and pull off the Angel Dash. I mean I see people switch from Demon Dodge to Angel Dodge or vice versa. It wouldn't be hard to pull off or implement.

Plus can't you pull off an Angel Dash (dodge) teleport animation twice in a row or twice in one executive succession (like pulling off 2-3 Sky Star in quick succession in DMC4 via DT state) via upgrading it.

 

[OppressedWriter]

No not really if the player can manipulate how the combat system is set up such as pulling off a normal dodge but mid-dodge switch to angel mode and pull off the Angel Dash. I mean I see people switch from Demon Dodge to Angel Dodge or vice versa. It wouldn't be hard to pull off or implement.

Plus can't you pull off an Angel Dash (dodge) teleport animation twice in a row or twice in one executive succession (like pulling off 2-3 Sky Star in quick succession in DMC4 via DT state) via upgrading it.

As to your first thing, what you're saying you can already do in the game, you're arguing about how it is mapped on the controller. You want it to be one button press, instead of two, that's seems like grasping at straws, the mechanic works as you'd like it to work.

Sure you can't do some things, but you're really not making a strong argument if you're finding every little negligible thing to argue your point, so yay dt lets you do 3 sky star glides, well DT, in DmC makes all enemies fly and you can just grapple them freely. There you go, same basic purpose, you're able to stay in the air and avoid enemy attacks. The overall point is that there are things in DmC that DMC4 doesn't have and vice versa, but ultimately most of the moves and skills that are in DMC4 are in DmC, which makes it a DMC game through and through, and a remarkably fun one at that.

 

[Stylish Nero]

Sure you can't do some things, but you're grasping at straws if you're finding every little thing, so yay dt lets you do 3 sky star glides, well DT, in DmC makes all enemies fly and you can just grapple them freely. There you go, same basic purpose, you're able to stay in the air and avoid enemy attacks. The overall point is that there are things in DmC that DMC4 doesn't have and vice versa, but ultimately most of the moves and skills that are in DMC4 are in DmC, which makes it a DMC game through and through, and a remarkably fun one at that.

But not all of DMC4 moves and skills.

You see as the next game in the series. I expect more not less or at least not less.

If I'm grasping at straws then aren't you over counting them....can't think of allegory that is the opposite of "grasping at straws".

 

[OppressedWriter]

But not all of DMC4 moves and skills.

You see as the next game in the series. I expect more not less or at least not less.

If I'm grasping at straws then aren't you over counting them....can't think of allegory that is the opposite of "grasping at straws".

(Edit)Another thing, you can combine Angel Boost, aquilas calbur, and then do a angel dodge dash in the air, that is equivalent to doing three sky star glides in terms of overall movement.

ugh, I don't even know why I"m trying. There aren't less moves, because their are moves that are different in DmC that aren't in DMC4. There are not overall less moves if you combine Vergil and Dante in DmC vs Nero and Dante in DMC4. That's the point I've been trying to make with evidence to back me up. That just because DMC4 was lazy enough to label everything a damn move it seems like it has this massive movelist, when in reality it has the same or less moves that DmC when it comes to their actual combo potential and mechanical variety.

For example, the rebellion combo B, there isn't an actual combo that's labeled an equivalent in DmC, so I just replicated it with the game's flexible combo system, so technically if Capcom or ninja theory decided hey every thing that is two hits chained together is a combo that should be listed, it would obliterate DMC4's combo list.

 

[Kam]

To answer your first question, yes.

As to your second question, maybe you should ask yourself that question. I'm the one providing proof, conceding where there is reason to concede, you're the one making excuses and changing goal posts.

Now back to what was being discussed. Again, I feel like you don't even know the mechanics, Mustang does not work the way you think it does in the air.

As for the recovery of a knockback, what combo video of a stylish player is showing off their ability to take hits and knock back, its a useless skill, because once you're good enough you're usually not getting hit in a DMC game combo video. I thought you were reasonable but I'm starting to think otherwise.

Also, I am playing DMC4 right now, those videos are from me, so trust me I know its hard as hell to stay in the in the air DMC4. That's not what is being discussed here. We're discussing the overall value of skills and their approximate equivalents in DmC. However, assuming you're right, the purpose of that skill is staying in the air in DMC4, and since staying in the air is not an issue in DmC, that skill is admittedly useless and not in the game.

the hypocrisy here is astounding. My "goal posts" have only ever been in one place: new trickster got nerfed to hell. If they've ever moved, it's been to address you changing the subject (bloody palace debug videos aren't okay, blitz is cheap, rebellion combo B is filler, mustang isn't a real move, flipper isn't a real move, on and on)

so, I ask you again. Are you finished here? Or do you want to change the subject again? Because as far as I'm concerned, your disinterest in talking about trickster means we've resolved that issue.

 

[Stylish Nero]

ugh, I don't even know why I"m trying. There aren't less moves, because their are moves that are different in DmC that aren't in DMC4. There are not overall less moves if you combine Vergil and Dante in DmC vs Nero and Dante in DMC4. That's the point I've been trying to make with evidence to back me up. That just because DMC4 was lazy enough to label everything a damn move it seems like it has this massive movelist, when in reality it has the same or less moves that DmC when it comes to their actual combo potential and mechanical variety.

For example, the rebellion combo B, there isn't an actual combo that's labeled an equivalent in DmC, so I just replicated it with the game's combo system, so technically if Capcom or ninja theory decided hey every thing that is two hits chained together is a combo that should be listed, it would obliterate DMC4's combo list.

How would you know that?

I thought the potential amount of combos one can pull off was based on the player or some sh*t. There was no set amount. DMC4 just gives you more to systematically work with.

Based on what I've seen DMC4 and DmC use the same combo system (regular combos, pause combos, launchers, lunge attacks, aerial attacks, aerial combos, etc).

There are moves that are different from DMC3 and DMC4 and DMC3 still has the largest moveset.

This isn't MvC3 where you'll see one move listed 3 times on the movelist because you can pull it off from 3 different attacks.

There is no dial-up combos or designated combo chains in DMC/DmC.

Ohh gee I didn't know there were some moves in DmC that weren't named. Mind telling me what they are?

Why are we mixing other character playstyles into this as far as I'm concerned how Vergil plays plays no correlation to how it affects how Dante plays. Vergil can use trickster as effective as old Dante big whoop what does that say about new Dante?

 

[OppressedWriter]

the hypocrisy here is astounding. My "goal posts" have only ever been in one place: new trickster got nerfed to hell. If they've ever moved, it's been to address you changing the subject (bloody palace debug videos aren't okay, blitz is cheap, rebellion combo B is filler, mustang isn't a real move, flipper isn't a real move, on and on)

so, I ask you again. Are you finished here? Or do you want to change the subject again? Because as far as I'm concerned, your disinterest in talking about trickster means we've resolved that issue.

Calm down, breath.
I suppose I'll utilize your method of discourse. Maybe you will react more calmly to it. Don't bother responding anymore, I see your true colors. I've been more than reasonable in my discourse, but you fail to give an inch regardless and disregard any evidence that counters your own.

So, I ask you again. Are you finished here? Or do you want to change the subject again? Because as far as I'm concerned, your disinterest in talking about trickster means we've resolved that issue. So, we can both agree DmC has Trickster, that is a fact, and its better in DmC than DMC4. Are we done now?


"Ohh gee I didn't know there were some moves in DmC that weren't named. Mind telling me what they are?"

I don't know maybe the combo I show side by side next to Rebellion Combo B, that isn't actually a combo that is listed in the DmC Combo list (Death Coil + trillion stabs).

P.S. you're the one that kept responding and the overall theme of the thread is DmC what's missing so stop playing victim, no one asked you to continue with your refutations of all my comments.

 

[Kam]

Calm down, breath.
I suppose I'll utilize your method of discourse. Maybe you will react more calmly to it. Don't bother responding anymore, I see your true colors. I've been more than reasonable in my discourse, but you fail to give an inch regardless and disregard any evidence that counters your own.

DmC has Trickster, that is a fact, and its better in DmC than DMC4. Are we done now?


"Ohh gee I didn't know there were some moves in DmC that weren't named. Mind telling me what they are?"

I don't know maybe the combo I show side by side next to Rebellion Combo B, that isn't actually a combo that is listed in the DmC Combo list (Death Coil + trillion stabs).

You've demonstrated table hopper, that's it.

Flipper doesn't appear to be there, mustang is gone but admittedly it's no longer necessary now that maintaining an air combo is so incredibly easy, and the sky star animation windup makes former high level techs like star rave no longer viable. and as always, the aggressive nature of air trick has been gutted out in favor of a much slower mechanic which, due to removal of hard lock, is very imprecise unless you're only fighting one thing.

Out of 5 existing moves found only in the trickster style, at most 2 of them are present.