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DmC: Forgiving Gameplay

DreadnoughtDT

God of Hyperdeath
Premium
Supporter 2014
My bottom line is this.

DMC3's gameplay
DMC1's difficulty and enemy style (I.E. NO GIMMICK ENEMIES {I'm looking at you, Soul Eater!})
DMC2's gritty enemy design.
 

Nessy

Well-known Member
If they don't offer me a challenge, I won't offer my money. In DMC4 ( the first DMC I played ) I never used any items. The game is still too easy without this, I feel that I may as well turn cheats on if i'm going to be using the green stars , holy water, gold orbs etc, it would be impossible to not be able to finish this game. If someone wanted, they could just go onto human mode, grind relentlessly until they have 30 large green stars and easily complete DMD even if they were the worst gamer in the history of forever.

To me hack n slashes are about being challenged, and it's the one thing I'm looking for most in this upcoming game. Forgiving gameplay makes any sense of accomplishment I get near enough meaningless.
 

chocolatepanda

Well-known Member
. If someone wanted, they could just go onto human mode, grind relentlessly until they have 30 large green stars and easily complete DMD even if they were the worst gamer in the history of forever.

If they were the worst gamer in the would im sure they wouldnt make it through easily. More like constantly struggling to stay alive by using the stars.

I never used any items

I think you may be above average in skill if you manged to beat a Blitz or a group of those seed infected lizards on all the difficulties without using item.
 

DarkSlayer54

Well-known Member
If they don't offer me a challenge, I won't offer my money. In DMC4 ( the first DMC I played ) I never used any items. The game is still too easy without this, I feel that I may as well turn cheats on if i'm going to be using the green stars , holy water, gold orbs etc, it would be impossible to not be able to finish this game. If someone wanted, they could just go onto human mode, grind relentlessly until they have 30 large green stars and easily complete DMD even if they were the worst gamer in the history of forever.

To me hack n slashes are about being challenged, and it's the one thing I'm looking for most in this upcoming game. Forgiving gameplay makes any sense of accomplishment I get near enough meaningless.
If it's not forgiving... it's not a real Devil May Cry game. I won't throw my money at the game if it's another DMC3 (I only say this because I know the chance of DmC having cheats, is slim to none). Untouchables, Holy Waters, Gold Orbs, and Stars balance the game out. It makes the game playable by both bad and good players. Collecting items in order to beat DMD mode is what makes the game fair. If your good enough to start a new profile on DMD mode and S every mission without any items, then props to you. However, what about the players that aren't good enough to do that?
Are the good players the only ones that should be able to get the Super Costumes? Not at all. A bad player has to put in hours and hours to collect Untouchables/Stars/Holy Waters. It's a trade off, lots of time spent into the game to beat the unbeatable.
 

Nessy

Well-known Member
If it's not forgiving... it's not a real Devil May Cry game. I won't throw my money at the game if it's another DMC3 (I only say this because I know the chance of DmC having cheats, is slim to none). Untouchables, Holy Waters, Gold Orbs, and Stars balance the game out. It makes the game playable by both bad and good players. Collecting items in order to beat DMD mode is what makes the game fair. If your good enough to start a new profile on DMD mode and S every mission without any items, then props to you. However, what about the players that aren't good enough to do that?
Are the good players the only ones that should be able to get the Super Costumes? Not at all. A bad player has to put in hours and hours to collect Untouchables/Stars/Holy Waters. It's a trade off, lots of time spent into the game to beat the unbeatable.

One of the great things about DMC (4) is they scaling. If has 4 standard difficulties (the easier 2 I'm sure even brand new gamers will be able to complete) that allow for most gamers to find exactly where they fit in. If you can't complete DMD then you can't complete DMD, either give up or practice, it's your time.

As for alternative costumes I never really thought about that as it's not something I play the game for, but if it were up to me I'd remove all the RPG elements from the game, as I see them as annoying more than anything else as it takes sometimes more than 2 whole difficulties to grind through buying stuff (this includes buying all your moves and stuff throughout the game, as well as stuff you get for completing each difficulty). If you are allowed to start with a super character then it makes no difference to me what so ever, since I won't be using them regardless.

That is only my opinion however, and I know it won't be a popular one. I will be happy though as long as the game gives a notable bonus for stuff like completing levels with no damage, and basically anything that brings more challenge to the game.

If they were the worst gamer in the would im sure they wouldnt make it through easily. More like constantly struggling to stay alive by using the stars.



I think you may be above average in skill if you manged to beat a Blitz or a group of those seed infected lizards on all the difficulties without using item.

Yes, I'm probably quite a bit above the average skill, but my point is that there are people our there like me that need to have stuff in the game that is that type level of difficult to keep us interested. As for the whole thing about beating a blitz or chimera assaults, the hardest time I had with them was on my first playthrough (demon hunter). I got better at the game faster than the difficulty increased. I'm sure that many people on these forums will be on the same boat there.


To sum up this whole post, what I am saying is that as long as DMC has a wide enough view of difficulty (this includes difficulty levels as well as stuff like items) then I'm happy. If there is something that makes the games incredibly easy, I will be okay with that as long as it is recorded on the end of level score sheet thingy.
 

DarkSlayer54

Well-known Member
If there is something that makes the games incredibly easy, I will be okay with that as long as it is recorded on the end of level score sheet thingy.

It already does. I don't know about DMC4, but in the previous DMC's if you use an item you pretty much loose any chance you had at a S rank.
 

Nessy

Well-known Member
It already does. I don't know about DMC4, but in the previous DMC's if you use an item you pretty much loose any chance you had at a S rank.

In DMC4 I could easily get an s while using items and gold orbs if I wanted to. However, the mere fact that on the score sheet it notes if you take damage, use a gold orb or use any other items makes it okay for me.
 

Railazel

Well-known Member
My vision of a perfect action game is challenging gamplay, strategic combat, and puzzling levels.

I don't DmC will have the first two, though I assume the levels will be puzzling due to the addition of platforming.
 

Nessy

Well-known Member
Started playing Darksiders a day or two ago, I think the puzzles make the game boring. They aren't challenging in the slightest and just not what I look for in this type of game.

Howcome you don't think DMC will have challenging gameplay or strategic (in what way, in a hack n slash sort of way, not an RTS sort of way) combat? Just out of interest.
 

Railazel

Well-known Member
Started playing Darksiders a day or two ago, I think the puzzles make the game boring. They aren't challenging in the slightest and just not what I look for in this type of game.

Howcome you don't think DMC will have challenging gameplay or strategic (in what way, in a hack n slash sort of way, not an RTS sort of way) combat? Just out of interest.

I don't think the gameplay will be all that challenging because the moves will be very easy to connect together and because the Style ranking system is more clear- cut, it'll be easier to see how moves can connect together. To me, the challenge should bring about a certain level of initial incentive in wanting the master it. There should be some level of difficulty in connecting attacks together that the player should want to find hidden shortcuts that'll help, such as how cancelling helple alot of newbies when playing DMC 3. NT has made it a point that the gameplay will allow moves to be more accessible and linkable than in other games, which means that the gameplay will be alot more easier to master.

As for strategic combat, DMC has sort of wavered on the quality of enemy design, so really I can't say anything on how strategic the combat will be, but then again DMC 2-4 always had a combo- heavy combat system, so the enemies will probably be monotonous in certain characteristics. Though the bosses were always a challenge, so I think they will shine in that regard.
 

Vezild

Taking Back Lordran One Boss At a Time
They do the Dark Souls style thing...Die. Lose red orbs. Go find your bloodstain. Enemies are 2x stronger. TAKE THAT N00Bz!!!!
I'd like that if it were some sort of hardcore mode.
But really I think DmC's gameplay will be easier than 3 or 1. Probably at around 4's level, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.
However, unforgiving gameplay, in my opinion, is the best. It really teaches you how to play, and for someone who has a passion for video games, that's important. No hand holding. No concession prizes. No excuses for losing.
 

DreadnoughtDT

God of Hyperdeath
Premium
Supporter 2014
In DMC4 I could easily get an s while using items and gold orbs if I wanted to. However, the mere fact that on the score sheet it notes if you take damage, use a gold orb or use any other items makes it okay for me.

I'm pretty sure that if you get to the point where you need to use a Gold Orb then that is considered automatic disqualification for an S rank. I've never used a Gold Orb and maintained an S rank.
 

DarkSlayer54

Well-known Member
But really I think DmC's gameplay will be easier than 3 or 1. Probably at around 4's level, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.
However, unforgiving gameplay, in my opinion, is the best. It really teaches you how to play, and for someone who has a passion for video games, that's important. No hand holding. No concession prizes. No excuses for losing.
I think the exact opposite.
I see DMC3 as unforgiving gameplay. All it's taught me, is to put the controller down, and turn off the TV. I haven't even beaten Normal mode yet on the HD Collection. It's just too aggravating.
 

DarkSlayer54

Well-known Member
Two words: Gold Orbs
Gold orbs don't make the game any more forgiving. You only get, what? Three gold orbs per playthrough?
If I'm getting aggravated on Easy, it's not the difficulty of the game that's making me throw it on the shelf. It's the design of the game. The enemies, levels, and lack of items. The gameplay, is possibly the best out of any DMC... but without the vast amounts of items scattered throughout each level, each annoying enemy (there are a lot) becomes even more annoying. Such as the blood bats or whatever (the ones that split apart), and the fallen angel things (flying angel-like things that swing around the sword), and the spiders that drop the little jumping larva on the floor. All these enemies were fun to fight on the PS2 with Super Characters, but now... they're simply and utterly annoying. Each time I encounter them they feel cheap and unfair.
Given, this is just my opinion... but, once again, I beat DMC1 on DMD mode. I'm not 'skilled' at hack and slash games, but the game gave me enough items to do this. The only reason I even beat it on DMD mode was for Super Dante.

What I find ironic about DMC, is that they reward players that beat DMD with Super Costumes... but many times the players that are good enough to beat DMD don't even use the super characters as they like the challenge of the normal character.
I like to just go for stylish points, and I'm terrible at Hack'n'Slash. My favorite thing about DMC is to use the Super Characters and just do combo's to fling enemies around and this is what I find fun about DMC.
 

Vezild

Taking Back Lordran One Boss At a Time
Gold orbs don't make the game any more forgiving. You only get, what? Three gold orbs per playthrough?
If I'm getting aggravated on Easy, it's not the difficulty of the game that's making me throw it on the shelf. It's the design of the game. The enemies, levels, and lack of items. The gameplay, is possibly the best out of any DMC... but without the vast amounts of items scattered throughout each level, each annoying enemy (there are a lot) becomes even more annoying. Such as the blood bats or whatever (the ones that split apart), and the fallen angel things (flying angel-like things that swing around the sword), and the spiders that drop the little jumping larva on the floor. All these enemies were fun to fight on the PS2 with Super Characters, but now... they're simply and utterly annoying. Each time I encounter them they feel cheap and unfair.
Given, this is just my opinion... but, once again, I beat DMC1 on DMD mode. I'm not 'skilled' at hack and slash games, but the game gave me enough items to do this. The only reason I even beat it on DMD mode was for Super Dante.

What I find ironic about DMC, is that they reward players that beat DMD with Super Costumes... but many times the players that are goodM, enough to beat DMD don't even use the super characters as they like the challenge of the normal character.
I like to just go for stylish points, and I'm terrible at Hack'n'Slash. My favorite thing about DMC is to use the Super Characters and just do combo's to fling enemies around and this is what I find fun about DMC.
I don't want to be rude, but it could mean you're just bad at playing the game. Everything (except for those spiders in DMC 3...I'll admit they were annoying) was fair and required a little but of strategy. If you go in expecting to bash everyone's head in, you're gonna get your butt kicked. Hard.
 

Railazel

Well-known Member
Gold orbs don't make the game any more forgiving. You only get, what? Three gold orbs per playthrough?
If I'm getting aggravated on Easy, it's not the difficulty of the game that's making me throw it on the shelf. It's the design of the game. The enemies, levels, and lack of items. The gameplay, is possibly the best out of any DMC... but without the vast amounts of items scattered throughout each level, each annoying enemy (there are a lot) becomes even more annoying. Such as the blood bats or whatever (the ones that split apart), and the fallen angel things (flying angel-like things that swing around the sword), and the spiders that drop the little jumping larva on the floor. All these enemies were fun to fight on the PS2 with Super Characters, but now... they're simply and utterly annoying. Each time I encounter them they feel cheap and unfair.
Given, this is just my opinion... but, once again, I beat DMC1 on DMD mode. I'm not 'skilled' at hack and slash games, but the game gave me enough items to do this. The only reason I even beat it on DMD mode was for Super Dante.

What I find ironic about DMC, is that they reward players that beat DMD with Super Costumes... but many times the players that are good enough to beat DMD don't even use the super characters as they like the challenge of the normal character.
I like to just go for stylish points, and I'm terrible at Hack'n'Slash. My favorite thing about DMC is to use the Super Characters and just do combo's to fling enemies around and this is what I find fun about DMC.

From what I understand, you're forgetting one aspect of any game: Learning it. Trust me, Hack n' Slashes are the easiest games in terms of gameplay and even moreso in combat. The strategies employed are quite simple and all it really depends on is your timing, which will improve as you play the game. Just remember, Hack n' Slash does not equate to Beat 'em Up, so you can't play the game thinking that you can button mash your way through. I learned that the hard way. Just experiment, figure out what moves and weapons work best for you, and play in a style that's comfortable. I myself thought that you had to use pretty much everything, but I don't even touch the O button anymore, and I only use Rebellion and E&I (sometimes I would use Nevan and A&R just for fun). Believe me when I say that you'll get better if you keep trying.

For example, take the enemies you described. The Blood Bats turn to stone when exposed to magic, so just shoot the crap out of them with E&I or Shotgun, or blast them away with Kalina Ann; just watch out for their dive attacks.

The Fallen Angels are tough, I'll give you that, but again a simple strategy is needed to make things less difficult. They have two modes: Armored and Unarmored. In Armored mode, they are impervious to all attacks and tend to attack at close- range, but their shields go down after a certain number of hits. Once you break their shields, they'll stay away and attack from a farther distance, but they can't attack while moving. Instead, they stand still to swing their swords around. Just go up under them and start swinging and shooting, the sword won't hit you but your's will hit them. Just be careful when there's more than one and make sure to beat them as fast as you can becuase their shields will return after a certain period.

Finally, The Spiders, which I do hate, but they are fun to fight. As you know, they are swift, but like the Fallen Angels they stand still when they attack. Just shoot them when they are moving, dodge their attack, and quickly retaliate; they leave openings after attacking at close range. But I must emphasize on dodging, their dash and web attacks are quick and dangerous. Oh, and be careful not to attack when they block, they'll jump into a dash attack while you're stunned. The small, white spiders are very easy to bounce around after attacking, but the bigger, green ones only react to one strike and start tanking everything else, so be make sure you use heavy attacks. As for the baby spiders, just stay away from them and shoot.

If you need anymore help, follow these tips that I learned from my own experience (they helped me alot):
*Dodging is important. When you see an attack coming, move away. Try to keep yourself from being surrounded.
*Cancelling is essential. Keep your attacks quick and continuous. Use the cancellability of your moves to fine tune the timing of your dodges and switch up on your attacks.
*Launching is benefical. Use High Time, Prop Shredder, Uppercut, and any other launcher moves to put your enemies in the air. It allows for openings and helps when you're surrounded. Plus, who doesn't love Juggling?
*Isolation is key. Try to fight one-on-one. Launching and Knockbacking helps keep enemies away, and dodging can help to keep you from getting surrounded.
*DT is necessary. If you're stuck in a pinch, DT. The sweet thing about DMC 3 is that you can unleash the energy of your Trigger into an attack, so use that to push your lighter enemies back when you're surrounded.
*Health is not important. Well... It is, but don't make it a major focus. Just worry about kicking the crap out of the guy in front of you. If you do things right and head for the S rankings, you won't get hit all that often.
*Experimentation is absolute. Like I said, experiment. Figuring out your style is one of the best things about DMC 3. Even hardcore players have small little strategies that make their style unique to them.

These have been quick tips by Advanced DMC Player, Railazel!
 

Sieghart

"Plough the lilies"
I was 12 the first time i played DMC 3 and i never got a problem.
Sure it was hard,frustrating but at the same time,FUN!
 

DarkSlayer54

Well-known Member
I don't want to be rude, but it could mean you're just bad at playing the game. Everything (except for those spiders in DMC 3...I'll admit they were annoying) was fair and required a little but of strategy. If you go in expecting to bash everyone's head in, you're gonna get your butt kicked. Hard.
Indeed, I'm bad at hack'n'slash games... but, I still beat DMC1, and DMC3 dozens and dozens of times. I'm not exaggerating either when I say "dozens and dozens". I've been playing DMC ever since DMC3 came out.
DMC1 was forgiving, and I loved it. I had fun, even on DMD. DMC3, is unforgiving, and I get annoyed by in even on easy.
Making the game forgiving makes the game fun for me. The thing is, forgiving gameplay makes me have fun with the normal characters. In DMC3's case, I was only able to have fun with Super Characters. Which is so ironic it's not even funny.
To unlock the Super Character in DMC3, I need to beat it on Very Hard or DMD. So, really... in order to have fun with the game, I need to spend hours and hours getting ****ed off.

DMC1 didn't have this problem (even with normal dante I had fun as the game was well designed). It gave me the items I needed to beat the game on DMD. An unlimited source of items. All I had to do was beat it several times (in other words, I had to put a lot of time into the game), in order to unlock the character. You could argue that infinite items isn't fair, but it is. The game just has to be designed right. Have 3-5 items per playthrough (such as Gold Orbs or Untouchables), and only have them respawn upon beating the game. This way players can't just reply one level over and over again. Additionally, they could require the player to beat 90% of the levels for the items to respawn to prevent a player from playing a level, then going directly to the last boss and repeating the process.

I guess the best solution is just to allow players to use Super Costumes from day 1... which, won't ever happen. I've always said that trophies/achievements ruin great games, and DMC3 is an example.
 
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