Dmc dante vs DMC3 vergil

[TWOxACROSS]

Kept you waiting huh?
Anyway, yes DmC Sparda is indeed an unknown variable therefore we can't really say that he is stronger or equal to DMC Sparda. Because what we have seen is DmC Sparda was imprison and DMC sparda wasn't. We can't really say that DmC Sparda let himself captured in order to protect his sons because come on this is Mundus. Do you really think he would just let go the seeds that can defeat him in that verse? If Sparda thinks that then he must be pretty naive.

Someone's letting out their inner Snake

That's the thing though, you agree that he's an unknown variable but keep stating with this unabashed certainty that he's weaker. I'm telling that I can just as easily say he could be stronger.

And I can very easily say that he let himself get captured, because there's no record of what happened. For all we know, Sparda hid his sons away and then refused to reveal the location of them, so Mundus had him eternally imprisoned, not giving him the benefit of death.

That's all it is, we don't know, so it's all a bunch of "couldas" and "maybes."

But that's all we got. Infinite potential. The two might have battled and Sparda loses, Or Mundus use some deception or trick or he let himself get captured(which is pretty naive if you ask me). But to help you for DmC Sparda's capabilities he is not just Mundus right hand man but also one of the four demon kings of the demon world in the reboot if you remember the comics.

I barely remember the comics because of how horribly paced and drawn it was >_<

Two millenniums ago, there was a war. Between the human world and the other... the Underworld. But somebody from the Underworld woke up to justice, and stood up against this legion, alone. His name was Sparda. Later, he quietly reigned the human world, and continued to preserve harmony, until his death. He became a legend, The Legendary Dark Knight, Sparda.

-Devil may cry intro

Another inconsistency of the devil may cry narrative i guess. Plus, DMC 2 DOESN'T EXIST >_<

Yeah, the biggest problem of DMC is how many hands the story has passed through :/

so the debate is now that DmC Sparda might have been stronger but let him self lose for some vague reason. that is very unlikely. if we assume that only Nephilim can seal the hellgate (since that is how you kill Mundus and only Nephilim are supposed to be able to kill him) then the situation it the same as DMC Sparda vs Mundus in which case if DmC Sparda was the same the results should have been the same. their is no situation where Sparda would benefit more from being imprisoned than sealing Mundus and we don't have any evidence that Sparda wouldn't have been able to seal the hellgate. the only clearly described advantage of Nephilim is that they can easily cross worlds. as Mundus' right hand man he would have probably known how to access the hellgate without Nephilim powers and Yamato has the same origin (given to Vergil by Sparda) and powers (or at least the one important to this discussion which is the ability to seal hellgates) so all Sparda would need to do is get in the room and Mundus could be made mortal and if he were as strong as DMC Sparda he wouldn't have any problem disabling Mundus long enough to seal the gate and then killing him. there could be other factors that would explain why DmC Sparda couldn't kill or seal Mundus but we are not aware of any so all evidence at the moment points to DmC Sparda being weaker than Mundus.

When there's any number of possibilities - almost anything is likely :/ Don't discount the possibilities just because you disagree with it.

Sparda probably didn't fight since he left the Rebellion to Dante (which seemed to be Sparda's sword), and the Yamato (what can close the Hell Gate) with Vergil. So either DmC Sparda had another undocumented weapon we don't know about, he fought with his bare hands, or logically, he didn't bother fighting at all because it was futile.

And there most certainly is a situation where Sparda would benefit from being imprisoned - not bothering to fight a losing battle against an immortal being, and/or being imprisoned for not wanting to divulge the locations of his Nephilim children, the only things that can kill Mundus.

Plus, there is evidence to support Sparda couldn't close the Hell Gate because he gave Yamato to Vergil, and so far it's documented as the only thing that can close the Hell Gate. Then of course, I don't see how you can say "Sparda just needs to get into the room where the Hell Gate is to close it," when it took both Dante and Vergil to close the Hell Gate, as Dante lured Mundus away from it. Sparda is one (unarmed) dude, and one dude who is already on Mundus' sh!t-list for siring the one thing that can permanently kill him. I don't think Mundus would be stupid enough to let someone he hates that much get that close his Hell Gate.

And before you say "He let Dante and Vergil do it" remember that Mundus didn't even know what or who Vergil was (other than the Order's leader), or that he'd even be there with Dante in Silver Sacks. Y'know when Mundus realized what and who Vergil was? When Vergil stabbed him in the goddamn back >_<

But no...

there could be other factors that would explain why DmC Sparda couldn't kill or seal Mundus but we are not aware of any so all evidence at the moment points to DmC Sparda being weaker than Mundus.

...this is bullsh!t, because it's using a lack of information as evidence to a lack of potential, and it's not. It's specifically a lack of information, which means we cannot come to a conclusion on the matter. All we know is that Mundus imprisoned Sparda, we don't have any other information than that.

Does a child's lack of information that fire his hot mean that fire is not hot? No. That's why the child needs to be told this information, so they know...and then still stick their hand in the fire, because they're a stupid little kid who never listens

As I've said a bunch of times now, because Sparda is an unknown variable, we can't definitively say much about his potential power.

Think of it this way; in the book I'm writing right now, I have a character who has immense potential, and she can lay waste to entire battalions with ease. However, she's also a pacifist, and seeks nonviolent solutions to conflicts. The reader doesn't get to see a glimpse of her immense power until much later in the story, and she spends a lot of her time avoiding fights. Now, her unwillingness to fight does not make her weak, it makes her fighting capabilities completely unknown for the most part. So while we can sort of extrapolate that she's got some muscle considering the weapon she wields, we have a baseline, but we still have no idea how high her potential can reach. Not until we see her wrecking sh!t later on.

As it stands, we have a vague baseline for Sparda, but no gauge on how high his actual potential can go. Could be lower than Mundus, could be the same, could be higher. We just don't know.

It'd be the same concept as if I booted up DmC, and just mashed Triangle. "Dis game sucks, I can't launch enemies like I could in other DMCs" I'd say, because I haven't touched the Circle button, and my tutorials are off. My limited knowledge from not doing every action that was available to me gave me a premature and incorrect conclusion about the game. The upside here is that I can totally push Circle to launch stuff, we have the ability to learn this information. With Sparda, we don't have that luxury, so much of what he's capable of is left unknown, unless we try to get some answers out of Ninja Theory.

And please, stop trying to fill in blanks with your beliefs, it does nothing for the discussion and just drags it out. You can believe whatever you want, but don't prop it up as fact.

oh and the Vie De Marli helped Sparda with Argosax not Mundus. Sparda beat Mundus on his own.

You're gonna have to find me where it says that. But hey! There's the problem with DMC's storytelling again :/

 

[Railazel]

You're joking. I might believe that it can or might be Massive Hypersonic+ but faster than light? Ridiculous.

How so?

How is that faster-than-light...? Nothing can move faster-than-light

Really? You're applying a universal speed limit to a universe where a demon horse can slow down time at will? I mean, sure, shadows can have a physical form but let's not break the rules of relativity here, right?

In all seriousness, yes, Vergil can move FTL. Now, just because he can doesn't mean that he would, that's an argument speculating on whether he would want in certain cases or not- one that I have no interest in at the moment. For now, I am simply going to argue on the basis of modern physics whether he can move FTL or not and how that places him above DmC Dante.

Now, the reason why I say this is because of his Judgement Cut attack. The physics of it basically make it impossible to do... I mean absolutely undoable given how we understand physics in our universe. Why? Because we're talking about the physics of space- warping, which is indicated by the bubble of space being stretched then "popping" into a series of slashes.

To warp space, you need negative energy. To get negative energy, you need negative mass, which Vergil doesn't have. Luckily for Vergil, according to Einstein, negative mass can't exist either, and his form of space- warping is different from the conventional idea. Instead of space being warped around him, he's expanding space from a single point. To do that depends on whether DMC is in an expanding universe or a stationary one. Because we don't totatlly know what's driving our universe's expansion, I'm going to take an arguable route of saying that it is stationary. To expand space in a stationary universe, you need to (of course) move faster than the speed of light. To do this, Vergil can use magic (which is likely) or he can quickly accelerate his movements to such speeds (given his DarkSlayer abilities, that is also very possible). Which method he's using, I can't really be sure of. To say that it's magic would require questioning exactly what magic it is and how it works. I'm simply taking the lazy (and more awesome) route of saying that it's within his physical capabilities. Taking said route would logically lead to the conclusion that he is more powerful than DmC Dante who hasn't moved that fast as of yet.

On another note, punching a slug lady is a wonderful achievement except, if I recall correctly, that's his only achievement of unaided strength in a realm where physics pretty much takes a dump on itself. I mean, we're here trying to place a scale of strength which would depend on Dante's muscle mass in a place where a girl has the power to manipulate space using a timer filled with... stuff. I'm sorry for doubting that we would ever have a dependable measurement of anything in Limbo.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Except nowhere is it ever mentioned that Vergil is slashing "faster than light," and neither is "warping space."

And of course, everything is magic in DMC. It's magic that let's Arkham hang out on a ceiling. It's magic that lets demons appear through distortions. It's magic that creates electricity, fire, and wind out of nothing. Air Tricks, as well as pretty much everything else Vergil does, are all magically-aided feats. But he's never moved faster-than-light.

And even if FTL were possible with magic, DMC3 itself even displays the notion that moving incredibly fast causes it to collide with air particles, because we see that conical shell of heated particles in front of Dante and Rebellion (aided by gravity) as he's showing off right after he awakens his Devil Trigger.

And since that happens to anything moving close to a speed even well below FTL speed, and we never see anything like this accompany Vergil's attacks or movements, I'd have to call bullsh!t :/

And despite Limbo being a dimension where physics takes a break, most things other than platforms are affected by gravity, liiiiiike Dante and Poison both falling just as things always do thanks to gravity. The only time people are unaffected by gravity is when Dante whips out his Devil Trigger, spreads gravity's cheeks, and just goes to town without so much as a courtesy spit.

 

[TerrorA]

The only time people are unaffected by gravity is when Dante whips out his Devil Trigger, spreads gravity's cheeks, and just goes to town without so much as a courtesy spit.

Classy.

By the way, DmC Dante was designed to be as strong as, if not more powerful than DMC3 Dante. So, yeah. Vergil's dead.

 

[EvilX-81]

Vergil's Judgment Cut is faster than light, because there's a space warping effect? The attack doesn't even make any logical sense, even if we assumed he was sheathing and unsheathing at FTL speeds, how it distorts space around everything infront of Vergil, but then a bubble of slashes appear at a specific point...? That can be completely avoided if you just run over to the side?

I mean, trying to make sense of it... just makes no sense. Dante's DMC4 Judgment Cut made more sense than DMC3 Vergil's, but then only marginally.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

The thing is, if anything were truly at FTL speeds, we'd never see anything happening, and we'd never be able to avoid it in-game. Ever. It'd be so instantaneous and game-breaking people would complain for a patch.

The thing about about FTL is that it happens so fast, that we cannot see it happen. If Vergil could truly move FTL in any sense, things would look very different. He wouldn't ever be seen slashing, he'd just take a iaido stance and then something would be dead. Not even his instantaneous teleportation moves that fast.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

And heeeey~ At least we're talking about Vergil again

 

[EvilX-81]

The thing is, if anything were truly at FTL speeds, we'd never see anything happening, and we'd never be able to avoid it in-game. Ever. It'd be so instantaneous and game-breaking people would complain for a patch.

The thing about about FTL is that it happens so fast, that we cannot see it happen. If Vergil could truly move FTL in any sense, things would look very different. He wouldn't ever be seen slashing, he'd just take a iaido stance and then something would be dead. Not even his instantaneous teleportation moves that fast.

Which is funny since it's called Instant Teleportation. If the game were to say his attack was FTL though (and double confirmed by the developer or writer behind the story and the character abilities), I'd buy in for sake of suspension. Gotta do that for comics and manga afterall. But I don't see anything that hints at Vergil's speed being THAT fast.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

To Air Trick's credit, it is like...one of the fastest things in the game

 

[Sieghart]

How so?

Because if that was the case then Vergil should have curb stomped or speed blitz Dante in their final battle and Vergil would own 80% of characters in fiction. Literally. The closest speed that judgment cut or specifically the space dimension judgment cut that Vergil used in Mission 20 can only be Hypersonic+ or Massively Hypersonic at best.

 

[darkslayer13]

Someone's letting out their inner Snake

That's the thing though, you agree that he's an unknown variable but keep stating with this unabashed certainty that he's weaker. I'm telling that I can just as easily say he could be stronger.

And I can very easily say that he let himself get captured, because there's no record of what happened. For all we know, Sparda hid his sons away and then refused to reveal the location of them, so Mundus had him eternally imprisoned, not giving him the benefit of death.

That's all it is, we don't know, so it's all a bunch of "couldas" and "maybes."



I barely remember the comics because of how horribly paced and drawn it was >_<




Yeah, the biggest problem of DMC is how many hands the story has passed through :/



When there's any number of possibilities - almost anything is likely :/ Don't discount the possibilities just because you disagree with it.

Sparda probably didn't fight since he left the Rebellion to Dante (which seemed to be Sparda's sword), and the Yamato (what can close the Hell Gate) with Vergil. So either DmC Sparda had another undocumented weapon we don't know about, he fought with his bare hands, or logically, he didn't bother fighting at all because it was futile.

And there most certainly is a situation where Sparda would benefit from being imprisoned - not bothering to fight a losing battle against an immortal being, and/or being imprisoned for not wanting to divulge the locations of his Nephilim children, the only things that can kill Mundus.

Plus, there is evidence to support Sparda couldn't close the Hell Gate because he gave Yamato to Vergil, and so far it's documented as the only thing that can close the Hell Gate. Then of course, I don't see how you can say "Sparda just needs to get into the room where the Hell Gate is to close it," when it took both Dante and Vergil to close the Hell Gate, as Dante lured Mundus away from it. Sparda is one (unarmed) dude, and one dude who is already on Mundus' sh!t-list for siring the one thing that can permanently kill him. I don't think Mundus would be stupid enough to let someone he hates that much get that close his Hell Gate.

And before you say "He let Dante and Vergil do it" remember that Mundus didn't even know what or who Vergil was (other than the Order's leader), or that he'd even be there with Dante in Silver Sacks. Y'know when Mundus realized what and who Vergil was? When Vergil stabbed him in the goddamn back >_<

But no...



...this is bullsh!t, because it's using a lack of information as evidence to a lack of potential, and it's not. It's specifically a lack of information, which means we cannot come to a conclusion on the matter. All we know is that Mundus imprisoned Sparda, we don't have any other information than that.

Does a child's lack of information that fire his hot mean that fire is not hot? No. That's why the child needs to be told this information, so they know...and then still stick their hand in the fire, because they're a stupid little kid who never listens

As I've said a bunch of times now, because Sparda is an unknown variable, we can't definitively say much about his potential power.

Think of it this way; in the book I'm writing right now, I have a character who has immense potential, and she can lay waste to entire battalions with ease. However, she's also a pacifist, and seeks nonviolent solutions to conflicts. The reader doesn't get to see a glimpse of her immense power until much later in the story, and she spends a lot of her time avoiding fights. Now, her unwillingness to fight does not make her weak, it makes her fighting capabilities completely unknown for the most part. So while we can sort of extrapolate that she's got some muscle considering the weapon she wields, we have a baseline, but we still have no idea how high her potential can reach. Not until we see her wrecking sh!t later on.

As it stands, we have a vague baseline for Sparda, but no gauge on how high his actual potential can go. Could be lower than Mundus, could be the same, could be higher. We just don't know.

It'd be the same concept as if I booted up DmC, and just mashed Triangle. "Dis game sucks, I can't launch enemies like I could in other DMCs" I'd say, because I haven't touched the Circle button, and my tutorials are off. My limited knowledge from not doing every action that was available to me gave me a premature and incorrect conclusion about the game. The upside here is that I can totally push Circle to launch stuff, we have the ability to learn this information. With Sparda, we don't have that luxury, so much of what he's capable of is left unknown, unless we try to get some answers out of Ninja Theory.

And please, stop trying to fill in blanks with your beliefs, it does nothing for the discussion and just drags it out. You can believe whatever you want, but don't prop it up as fact.



You're gonna have to find me where it says that. But hey! There's the problem with DMC's storytelling again :/

if Sparda could beat Mundus with the swords then he would waited to give them away.

there are possibilities that involve DmC Sparda being stronger but losing anyway but all of those require us to assume information we do not have. losing a battle implies being weaker then your opponent unless their is evidence of another reason to lose. we do not have evidence that Sparda would have a reason to intentionally lose so all current evidence points to DmC Sparda being weaker then DmC Mundus. saying their could be contradictory evidence doesn't change things unless that contradictory evidence is shown to exist. their is also no evidence that Sparda isn't secretly on Mundus' side and the imprisonment story a lie ( it's true there is no evidence contradicting that theory) and by your logic that could be considered just as likely as the events that have been described but lack of evidence disproving a theory is not evidence of that theory.

 

[ef9dante_oSsshea]

Wow didn't think posting this thread it would take off like this. There are some brilliant points from both sides , its a great read.

 

[Railazel]

Except nowhere is it ever mentioned that Vergil is slashing "faster than light," and neither is "warping space."

Except that he is warping space and that requires FTL movement.

And of course, everything is magic in DMC. It's magic that let's Arkham hang out on a ceiling. It's magic that lets demons appear through distortions. It's magic that creates electricity, fire, and wind out of nothing. Air Tricks, as well as pretty much everything else Vergil does, are all magically-aided feats. But he's never moved faster-than-light.

So let's explain everything through magic? Magic is a part of their universe but I doubt it's the cause of every single feat the characters do and there are indications that show that the characters are doing these things unaided. For example, as indicated by the blurring effect, Vergil is moving at high speeds when he's using Air Tricks, same thing with Dante. Besides, if magic is allowing him to move FTL then he is still moving FTL. That's like denying that DmC Dante is ever capable of punching Mundus in the face because he needed Eryx to do it. Whether he used Eryx or not, he still did it.

And, like I said, if you want to argue that it's magic, you need to clarify what magic it is and how it works. Otherwise, you're basically using the "god of the gaps" argument.

And even if FTL were possible with magic, DMC3 itself even displays the notion that moving incredibly fast causes it to collide with air particles, because we see that conical shell of heated particles in front of Dante and Rebellion (aided by gravity) as he's showing off right after he awakens his Devil Trigger.

And since that happens to anything moving close to a speed even well below FTL speed, and we never see anything like this accompany Vergil's attacks or movements, I'd have to call bullsh!t :/

Ummm... If magic is involved, why does it need to collide with anything or have any ordinary physical reaction with anything else? For example, if Dante through Rebellion and used magic to speed it up, would that same heated shell be produced? Not necessarily as it would depend on what the magic was doing.

Now, as for consequences of approaching that speed, it depends on how fast you accelerate. A gradual acceleration would cause the reactions we see normally but a sudden burst of speed would be much different.

And despite Limbo being a dimension where physics takes a break, most things other than platforms are affected by gravity, liiiiiike Dante and Poison both falling just as things always do thanks to gravity. The only time people are unaffected by gravity is when Dante whips out his Devil Trigger, spreads gravity's cheeks, and just goes to town without so much as a courtesy spit.

The only time? How about everytime Dante enters Limbo when pieces of buildings break apart and start floating around in the air? Or when Kat literally shifted space using a timer filled some concoction of... stuff?

If physics is going to "take a break" then it's no longer physics and there's no way of objectively measuring how strong Dante really is. I mean, thanks for those small moments of "gravity" where some stuff fall while others still float in the air, but physics needs to be consistent for it to have any bearing.

Because if that was the case then Vergil should have curb stomped or speed blitz Dante in their final battle and Vergil would own 80% of characters in fiction. Literally.

That's actually not always the case. Just because a character can doesn't always mean they will but that's a speculative argument of whether Vergil is actually doing it all the time or some of the time and why, if some, would he do it some of the time. I can't be sure, I just know that when he uses Judgement Cut, he's moving FTL.

The closest speed that judgment cut or specifically the space dimension judgment cut that Vergil used in Mission 20 can only be Hypersonic+ or Massively Hypersonic at best.

Except to distort space, you need to travel FTL, so... no.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

if Sparda could beat Mundus with the swords then he would waited to give them away.

Unless his plan was to, y'know, not bother fighting an immortal being, and instead setting up his children, of the race prophesied to kill a demon king, with the tools they would need to do so later in life. We know that much, at least. Sparda armed his sons when he sent them away, so Sparda didn't have any weapon at the time of his imprisonment, and certainly not the one sword we know he fought with, and the one sword we know is the only tool that can close the Hell Gate.

there are possibilities that involve DmC Sparda being stronger but losing anyway but all of those require us to assume information we do not have. losing a battle implies being weaker then your opponent unless their is evidence of another reason to lose. we do not have evidence that Sparda would have a reason to intentionally lose so all current evidence points to DmC Sparda being weaker then DmC Mundus. saying their could be contradictory evidence doesn't change things unless that contradictory evidence is shown to exist. their is also no evidence that Sparda isn't secretly on Mundus' side and the imprisonment story a lie ( it's true there is no evidence contradicting that theory) and by your logic that could be considered just as likely as the events that have been described but lack of evidence disproving a theory is not evidence of that theory.

Wow, you're really reaching.

I do not see how in any sense that by Sparda not having a reason to lose a battle, it meant he is weak, when I keep trying to tell you that there's no documentation of a battle having ever taken place.

And if one did, he could have fought simply to try and die; he just lost the love of his life, a beloved that he accepted by turning his back on his entire race for. He could have fought a losing battle distraught by anger and despair, and just wanted to be put out of his misery. And then Mundus punishes him further, by instead of killing him imprisoning Sparda, forcing him to live out eternity with his remorse over the loss of Eva.

Or he could have confronted Mundus to draw ire away from his sons, and let himself be imprisoned as punishment for not divulging the locations of the Nephilim that could someday kill Mundus.

Or, like you say, Sparda could have totally been in league with Mundus the whole time. Although that's a completely asinine theory because why would Mundus allow any plan where the progenation of the one thing that can kill him is a factor, and the imprisonment of someone the Nephilim care about actively becomes the catalyst for the Nephilim's vengeance against him? It's like he secretly wanted to get killed, instead of continuing to rule over the world like he's shown to desire throughout the game.

But now you seem to be understanding the whole "unknown variable" thing and how we can't know anything for sure.

Although you're also still trying to say that because we don't know for sure, it's evidence that he must be weaker, which...I cannot fathom how you can come to that conclusion when we just went over how because his potential is unknown, and we cannot gauge unknown potential.

Because DmC Sparda is an unknown variable, he literally cannot be used to compare to anything.

Take a look at these two articles...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_absence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

They support the idea that we cannot come to a definitive conclusion about DmC Sparda's power because we do not have enough information about his power. There are too many possibilities of how things could have gone throughout his life, or how weak or how powerful he is, that we can't get a definitive answer.

Right now you're literally just picking one possibility that supports your argument, when you can't, because I or anyone else could just as easily pick one possibility that supports ours, and then we just go back and forth forever.

DmC Sparda can't be applied to a comparison, because we don't know enough.

 

[Railazel]

DmC Sparda can't be applied to a comparison, because we don't know enough.

May I be that one person to ask why Sparda is even a part of the conversation?

 

[TWOxACROSS]

May I be that one person to ask why Sparda is even a part of the conversation?

You know...I started writing up an explanation, and I honestly do not rightly know anymore...it's legitimately hurting my brain trying to figure out how we got to that point >.<

 

[Railazel]

You know...I started writing up an explanation, and I honestly do not rightly know anymore...it's legitimately hurting my brain trying to figure out how we got to that point >_<

I think it happened somewhere in page 7. Here, I'll help you out. As far as genetics go, Sparda is irrelevant to how powerful his sons turned out, so there's no point in bringing him up anyway. A person's physicality isn't genetic and I doubt magic is either. Though I ain't going to lie and say that I know anything about how a demon's genes work but from that fact that Dante and Vergil inherited their father's white hair and seemingly parts of his personality, I'm going to assume that it works much like a human's. Therefore, Sparda's strength and power wouldn't be inherited by their father, just his looks.

 

[Chancey289]

Again,

THE ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE IS NOT THE EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE.

 

[Railazel]

Again,

THE ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE IS NOT THE EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE.

The absence of what?

 

[EvilX-81]

Question;

If Sparda had tried to take on Mundus, it would have been after he had the HellGate, right? If that's the case, then... well it didn't matter how powerful he was, Mundus was in godmode along with legions of demons anyway. His only prerogative could've been to cut Mundus from his source of power before he even tried to fight Mundus...

And if it were before, before, it's still a question of how powerful Mundus was before the HellGate. Either way, I don't see any remotely clear way of determining how weak or powerful DmC Sparda was.

And I'm still baffled by this selective argument for Vergil's FTL Judgment Cut.

Slashes so fast it distorts space > distorted space from the slash doesn't hurt > the actual attack itself only acts upon a single point at a time > the entire attack itself can be avoided with mere above human speed movements = somehow FTL.