Comic Fans and Racism: Destroying Your Ignorant Arguments

[LordOfDarkness]

I'd like to note just for anyone who is interested to know. Your own personal problems in real life or whatever don't have anything to do with how you should conduct yourself here. Chancey has received warnings. This isn't a thread to openly discuss a member of this community. Those matters are left to staff to address and we have been discussing them.

I suggest we move on from this because it's completely disrespectful and nothing to do with the topic.

 

[xMobilemux]

Let's try looking at this the other way, like if Idris Elba is cast as the next Bond and he does a bang up job and becomes the best modern Bond since Brosnan, everyone all accepts him and all ends well, it shows that race doesn't matter and anyone can play anyone.
Then back to Statham or some other awesome white guy being cast as Blade, he becomes Blade and somehow does a better job than Snipes(unlikely I know), will that still be accepted though?
Because somehow I see a lot of people, both blacks and whites, males and females, going completely insane at the idea of pretty much the coolest black superhero being turned into a white guy regardless of how cool the white actor is.
Or say if Vin Diesel was cast as Cyborg and so on, if it should be accepted when other races take over characters played by white guys then does that mean it should be accepted if a black character is played by a white guy?

Hell the Mad Max video game got attacked for the voice actor being American instead of Australian so they changed it.

 

[Lain]

Just to give my two cents, I wouldn't like James Bond to be CHANGED to black because that would be unfaithful to the source material. I understand people who haven't read the books wanting a black, but for me Bond will always be Caucasian in my mind because that's how he was in the books.
Also to the person who said they changed Nick Fury to be white, that's wrong. Nick Fury was originally white but his Samuel L. Jackson version is far more popular and well known. If i had to guess why they brought back his white self for the cartoons it was probably because they were going for Earth 616 versions of everyone or something.

 

[V]

If they changed Bond to black right now, I'd expect they were either severely short on white actors here (not likely) or they had an agenda to push. Either by casting a hugely popular black actor for the bucks they bring in, or some other reason besides artistic. My first thought if they cast a black Bond would be someone was trying to be ultra progressive or something, and my second would be to brace for the ****storm because there's always a lot of division over Bond, who plays him next, whether he should be more progressive or more like he was in the 60s, whatever. Bond seems to be a character better suited to the past - in the new movies whenever I see something in reference to something modern it kinda grates. I'd be happy if they made Bonds set in the past instead of the present, but I guess they've never really done that. In any case, black Bond at this point screams like people screaming for black Bond just because, when whoever can really nail the role is what's important. If he's black and awesome, cool; but if he's black just because black... that's positive discrimination and that annoys me if the person can't do the job but is there because skin color.

It doesn't really matter who plays him, so long as they are convincing and it doesn't seem forced. Sometimes casting decisions do seem forced. I'm not adverse to black Bond, but like most people when it comes to Bond it's a sensitive topic who is the true Bond.

And I wonder how long Bond will really stay what he once was before he becomes modern, feminist, maybe even female? If he changes with the times, won't he lose his original meaning? I think he already kind of has deviated too much from the original concept, but maybe that's just me. People can make new concepts if they want to make new statements. I'm not a fan of morphing the old to appeal to the new.

 

[EA9Sol]

Okay, I'm going to put my two cents in on this matter.:tongue:

Regrading DC and Marvel both have multiverses. Meaning on one of them their is a female Tony Stark (Antonia Stark (Earth-81114), a Black Nick Furry (Ultimate Universe) and 'One More Day' never happened. :inlove: For DC; The is Batwoman, Black Green Lantern and so on. That is what I love about these comics! The realm of possibilities are endless. I remember there IS a Spider version of Spiderman, Female version and so on. Hell, there is even a nice poster at my local Coliseum Comics depicting ever version of Spiderman. Why are we so hung up on this now? When I saw the black Jonny Storm I was like: "wut? then "okay" then "WHY THE HELL ARE THE ALL TEENAGERS?! So getting bent out of shape about something that has been done before and to other POPULAR characters.

As for others characters? I don't care. Why? Because it's just going to be this. "Why just make not make another James Bond movie? It's practically James Bond movie without James Bond!" or "Why change James Bond's (race, sex, shoes)? You should just make make an original character instead of pandering to people!"

See what I did there? Catch 22. Someone is not going to be happy with anything you do. So why care? Because there is money involved so yeah. But, I'd like to see new fresh original movie with new characters...well in any genre really. It be nice to root for a whole new character instead of the same old ones. Regardless if they change their race or gender.
So, yeah.:wink:

 

[Lain]

Oh and about the whole Johnny Storm thing. I agree with EA9Sol that because of Marvel's multiverse it much more acceptable to change a characters circumstances. So I'm cool with Johnny Storm being black. Not that i watch the Fantastic Four movies anyway.

 

[Viper]

On the subject of changing a character cause multiverse, keep in mind that movies are available even to audience that isn't so immersed into American comic book culture and would probably have no clue there are more than one version of a character. Fantastic Four has already appeared in a movie, not to mention all the previous media like the cartoon, and Johnny was always white, so to make him black without any good reason to explain the change will raise a lot of question marks and feeling that it's that dreadful political correctness for the sake of kissing asses at work again.

ps. I thought Spiderwoman was her own thing and not Peter with his balls chopped off?

 

[Chancey289]

Okay, I'm going to put my two cents in on this matter.:tongue:

Regrading DC and Marvel both have multiverses. Meaning on one of them their is a female Tony Stark (Antonia Stark (Earth-81114), a Black Nick Furry (Ultimate Universe) and 'One More Day' never happened. :inlove: For DC; The is Batwoman, Black Green Lantern and so on. That is what I love about these comics! The realm of possibilities are endless. I remember there IS a Spider version of Spiderman, Female version and so on. Hell, there is even a nice poster at my local Coliseum Comics depicting ever version of Spiderman. Why are we so hung up on this now? When I saw the black Jonny Storm I was like: "wut? then "okay" then "WHY THE HELL ARE THE ALL TEENAGERS?! So getting bent out of shape about something that has been done before and to other POPULAR characters.

As for others characters? I don't care. Why? Because it's just going to be this. "Why just make not make another James Bond movie? It's practically James Bond movie without James Bond!" or "Why change James Bond's (race, sex, shoes)? You should just make make an original character instead of pandering to people!"

See what I did there? Catch 22. Someone is not going to be happy with anything you do. So why care? Because there is money involved so yeah. But, I'd like to see new fresh original movie with new characters...well in any genre really. It be nice to root for a whole new character instead of the same old ones. Regardless if they change their race or gender.
So, yeah.:wink:

You think the kind of people that would be more open to change would be comic fans considering how much they do over time. Hell, some characters can't go a full season without having their stuff rewritten, or dead people coming back to life once more.

This whole thing is mainly about how Johnny Storm's casting is the biggest issue for a lot of comic fans. Not the fact that their teenagers like you said, or Doom is a blogger wrapped in duct tape, just how Johnny Storm is played by a black guy. That's it. And that's annoying.

They are so quick to say it's pushing some agenda or token diversity where I don't see that at all. I see him being cast because Josh Trank thought he'd be good for the role, and I agree. The movie still looks like sh!t but his casting isn't.

And I'm a hypocrite for just agreeing with that casting? I'm against token diversity and representation, I want characters to be written as people before anything else, and I also want the characters to stay in true spirit of the surce material. But the people who are so against his casting no matter the excuse seriously always comes down race when you break it down. That no matter his acting ability, he isn't allowed to be Storm because he's black.

There's a lot more to be ****ed at when it comes to this movie.

 

[Chancey289]

I'm calling it how it is.

Try to explain, without it all coming back down to race, why Michael B. Jordan can't be the Human Torch then.

 

[Chancey289]

So yea, it's just his race. Not the fact that he could still play Johnny Storm exactly how we know him from the source material.

 

[Chancey289]

I created it because I mean exactly what I've posted. There's nothing wrong with him being cast as Johnny, and if that's your biggest issue, you have issues. I'm sure he will play a fine Johnny Storm even though the movie looks like poop.

 

[mrrandomlulz]

Honestly, here is a real good insight to the "It's about source material"

This is the exact racial appearance of the original Superman, and ignoring the costume inaccuracies that plagued the movie. There is one key missing feature

The curl, such an insignificant detail, but one that has been with Superman for 75+ years and while it didn't take me out of the movie, whenever we got a close look at Henry's face in the movie, I immediately noticed it's absence.

It's the same problem a lot of people had with Hugh Jackman as Wolverine (Though he had proved himself via his acting later on). When we go to these movies, we're expecting not just a movie, but an adaptation, we're hoping to see these characters from the comics coming to life from the pages to the screen.

 

[Chancey289]

You hear no one complaining when it comes to Samuel L. Jackson as Nick Fury, in fact, that's celebrated. As long as Michael B. Jordan plays Johnny Storm right, does his skin color matter here? He just got the role because he auditioned and did something good.

Man of Steel has a lot more problems than just a missing curl in his hair. It doesn't get Superman whatsoever.

 

[Rebel Dynasty]

Yup. People become fans of characters for a bunch of reasons, but one of the big ones is attraction and the one of the other big ones is because they relate to them. So... that's why this issue's still an issue. Race and gender are big in the attraction and relate-ability dept., whether we like it or not.

They could kind of avoid the whole problem by not trying to manipulate established characters and just coming up with new ones. If they don't have the balls to make new franchises, it's not like they couldn't make new characters within franchises that are successful: example, Harley Quinn. IIRC, she didn't exist in the comic universe until one of the animated shows invented her.

Truth; hubby actually just told me this less than a week ago, because he bought an issue of one of the Harley Quinn comics. She was meant to be a one-time character, but due to vast success, they made her more of a regular.

As to the topic at hand: I'm in agreement; gender, race...none of that crap matters, but when a character you've grown attached to is suddenly changed, it is a bit jarring.

There are too many factors present to narrow it down to something like "racism".

 

[Chancey289]

Truth; hubby actually just told me this less than a week ago, because he bought an issue of one of the Harley Quinn comics. She was meant to be a one-time character, but due to vast success, they made her more of a regular.

As to the topic at hand: I'm in agreement; gender, race...none of that crap matters, but when a character you've grown attached to is suddenly changed, it is a bit jarring.

There are too many factors present to narrow it down to something like "racism".

I am against token diversity, and like I explained earlier, not a fan of changing things for the sake of nonsensical pandering (fem Thor and Miles Morales). I'm just talking about the absolute ignorance people are sporting when it comes to this particular situation.

Are they actually racist? Most likely not, but it sure as hell makes it sound like it when the only argument being made breaks down to people against this casting JUST because he's black. If you get the source material and Fantastic Four, you can totally see why Michael was considered. Not just because they wanted a black Human Torch.

 

[mrrandomlulz]

You hear no one complaining when it comes to Samuel L. Jackson as Nick Fury, in fact, that's celebrated.

Thing no one gets about Jackson's Nick Fury was that the writers of the Ultimate Universe were huge fans of him, when they designed Nick Fury's ultimate version, they based it around being a role Samuel L. Jackson would play.
The Ultimate version was the one the movie version was based on, so they casted Jackson for a role quite literally designed for him, it was straight out of the comics.

 

[Chancey289]

Thing no one gets about Jackson's Nick Fury was that the writers of the Ultimate Universe were huge fans of him, when they designed Nick Fury's ultimate version, they based it around being a role Samuel L. Jackson would play.
The Ultimate version was the one the movie version was based on, so they casted Jackson for a role quite literally designed for him, it was straight out of the comics.

I know about the history of Nick Fury, but no one was still complaining about it.

This is about Michael B. Jordan being cast as the Human Torch and I haven't heard a single reason of why he can't be the superhero, other than race. Ironic isn't it? People want to stress about how it isn't about race, but that's all they ever seem to talk about when it comes to this.

 

[V's patron]

I tend to judge changes made on a source material on a case by case basis so in this case I'm on Chancey's side because I think he does capture who Johnny Storm is and nails his dynamic with the team atleast in the trailers. I do disagree with the accusation that the movie doesnt follow the source material as its more based on their Ultimate Marvel incarnation than the main 616 universe but thats for a different thread.

 

[Demi-fiend]

I agree and disagree with some of Chancey's points.