A Change in the Timeline

[berto]

I already mentioned this in the DMC5 General Thread but I don't like this, I feel like this makes the cannon something trivial. It's been established, repeatedly, by Capcom, that chronology is what it was. Confusing, yeah, but something that's been a fact since before DMC4 released. I know everyone wants some kind of cannon established reason for Dante's behaviour in 2 but there isn't one, it's just how the director of that project thought cool characters should be. It's what happens when you have so many different people with very distinct notions of what something should be handling one property, it becomes disjointed. It's also the reason Dante's never had the same face more than once.

If they ever end up explaining why Dante is all stoic in 2 it's not going to be something that was planned all along but rather something that they'll had to contempt with because of how the property was handled, how different people consider different things cool or stylish.

 

[DragonMaster2010]

I feel like this is the worst decision for canon.

Dante's attitude in the anime made sense for it to come before DMC4 because he wasn't motivated at the time then by 4 in meeting another family member he gets his motivation back. DMC2 being after everything else as the last entry would've been better because it makes sense that Dante would be more serious in his older age. Now it seems weird that he goes from a frat boy in 3, a cool dude in 1, a lazy schmuck in the anime, deadly serious in 2, and then a back to frat cowboy in 4??

Now it's 3,1,ani, 2, 4, 5. Jesus This hurts my brain.

 

[berto]

lazy schmuck in the anime

And that's why advocate for removing it from the cannon. They already broke cannon by making Morrison black, just rip the bandaid already. Remember how people got really mad when they showed Dante smoking in the DmC announcement trailer? Well, that's how I feel about making him a lazy deadbeat who doesn't want to do anything. What better time since they're changing things around.

 

[windleopard]

And that's why advocate for removing it from the cannon. They already broke cannon by making Morrison black, just rip the bandaid already. Remember how people got really mad when they showed Dante smoking in the DmC announcement trailer? Well, that's how I feel about making him a lazy deadbeat who doesn't want to do anything. What better time since they're changing things around.

Dante wasn't a lazy deadbeat in the anime. He just had trouble getting work and had money problems because he ended up taking jobs that he didn't get paid for very often.

 

[V's patron]

@windleopard
Dante being a "lazy deadbeat" is an exaggeration but he was pretty lethargic and passive. It made the anime hard to finish for me. Actually the only episodes that are worth rewatching to me don't star him in the lead.

@DragonMaster2010
But that's why it works. 2 makes more sense coming after the anime because Dante is still lethargic and passive when the anime ends. His trip in hell is what gets him out of his funk.

 

[AgentRedgrave]

Canon or not, set before or after DMC4, it seems to me the writers and developers are ignoring DMC2 anyway. So, I say we do the same

 

[berto]

Dante wasn't a lazy deadbeat in the anime. He just had trouble getting work and had money problems because he ended up taking jobs that he didn't get paid for very often.

First episode.

I got a job for you.
I don't want to.
Why?
I'm going to eat pizza instead. Not first, not on the way. Instead of.
I guess I'll blackmail you into doing your job again.

And i doesn't get better after that.

On top of that how often do you see him sleeping? How many times does he refuse the jobs or to even to get up? The guy lacks energy and drive and it takes nagging and insults to make him move. And this isn't one of those depression kind of energyless situations, he both looks bored and is boring. Dante used get excited at the prospect of action, ready to fight with a smile on his face. This guy doesn't look like he's ever ran before.

Which leads me to the most important part, the guy doesn't smile. I saw him smile maybe twice in the whole show, which doesn't bode well, and, worst still, he doesn't laugh, he is laughed at. He is the butt of the jokes and no one respects him, most everyone treats him like trash, and rightly so. If I'd seen the anime first I would've never gotten into the series because Dante is just so unimpressive and sluggish. Basically, the exhibits the exact opposite traits that made me fall in love with his character in the first place, which is why I hate this show with such passion.

 

[Lain]

Canon or not, set before or after DMC4, it seems to me the writers and developers are ignoring DMC2 anyway. So, I say we do the same

Personally, if I was in charge on writing DMC5 I don't think that this is the right attitude to take. So long as they continue to use Dante then the issue of DMC2 won't simply go away. More than inconsistencies created, more than making the new artbook outdated already, this retcon irks me due to the suggestion that 5's connection to 2 was minor enough that they could do this - I was hoping they were going to salvage 2 by using 5 to expand upon it, such as showing Dante returning from his trip to Hell and how the invasion of demons in 5 might be all connected to what he saw there. If this truly is the end of the "Sons of Sparda" era then what better time would there be to tie all the previous games in together?

But no, *sigh*. I can only hope that 5 still has a good plot...

 

[AgentRedgrave]

Personally, if I was in charge on writing DMC5 I don't think that this is the right attitude to take. So long as they continue to use Dante then the issue of DMC2 won't simply go away. More than inconsistencies created, more than making the new artbook outdated already, this retcon irks me due to the suggestion that 5's connection to 2 was minor enough that they could do this - I was hoping they were going to salvage 2 by using 5 to expand upon it, such as showing Dante returning from his trip to Hell and how the invasion of demons in 5 might be all connected to what he saw there. If this truly is the end of the "Sons of Sparda" era then what better time would there be to tie all the previous games in together?

But no, *sigh*. I can only hope that 5 still has a good plot...

Look, DMC2 was unsalvageable to begin with. it was a bad game, nothing more, nothing less. Dante's personality in DMC2, no matter how you look at it, was a huge inconsistency, no matter how you chose to look at it. Honestly, I agree with Foxy on that the game should have just been declared non-canon to begin with.

But, since they aren't doing that, changing it to being set to before DMC4, for me at-least, has more positives then negatives (hell since this change was made, you wouldn't believe how many people I'm seeing online are confused cause they thought DMC2 was always before DMC4). For one, as I said before telling my friends that "Oh 3 is a prequel to 1, 4 is a sequel to 1 and a prequel to 2, and 5's gonna be a sequel to 2" was always met with a huge "wtf" response, so only having to say to people "3 is a prequel" means a lot less headaches, least to me.

Furthermore, just look at Dante in 2, 4, and 5, DMC5 Dante looks (especially in his demon form) and acts much more like DMC4 Dante then DMC2 Dante. Heck, without this change, DMC5 being set after, already made DMC2 a contradiction (and nobody dare say DMC5 should have been set before DMC2 as-well, cause that cliffhanger ending being the end of the series plot all these years, had always p!$$ed me off)

I know some people aren't happy about it, maybe because they've seen the timeline as 3142 for so long, maybe cause changing DMC2's position screws with their own headcannons too much. But for my headcannon, DMC2 was just a bad dream

But hey, if it helps anyone, maybe DMC2, post DMC1, Dante was in a state of depression after having, unwittingly, killing his own brother, and gets over it by DMC4 cause A) Time does heal wounds, maybe not always fully, but still and B) he meets Nero and has family again (even if DMC4 doesn't outright say it, it honestly wouldn't surprise me if Dante knew, or at-least suspected, that Nero was his nephew)

 

[Foxtrot94]

Look, DMC2 was unsalvageable to begin with.

Pretty much. What's worse is that that game is casting its nefarious shadow on DMC5 as well, with some people ready to be disappointed if it doesn't work the miracle of making sense of DMC2.

As I said before, DMC2 is such a massive burden for the whole series just because of its existence.

 

[Innsmouth]

Honestly I mostly unphased by this decision. I don't like when canon gets spinned around, but than again, DMC2 had barely if any connection to other games. I read suggestion that they wanted to make first three games "Dante trilogy" and now they concentrating on nero.

 

[windleopard]

Pretty much. What's worse is that that game is casting its nefarious shadow on DMC5 as well, with some people ready to be disappointed if it doesn't work the miracle of making sense of DMC2.

As I said before, DMC2 is such a massive burden for the whole series just because of its existence.

A very small minority of people want DMC 5 to make sense of DMC 2. Most people don't care for how the two games connect. If there are any criticisms of DMC 5, whether or not it makes DMC 2 make any sense won't even make the top 10 list. If DMC 2 is a burden, it's a pretty light one. I'm not going to pretend DMC 2 is a good game outside of a few elements that I like but you are seriously overestimating the negative impact it has on the franchise.

 

[V's patron]

Honestly i don't think its that hard to resolve. I just think ignoring it and flip flopping on it isnt a good sign. I rather just pull that lever and move on.

I didn't mind leaving it at the end of the timeline, i just wish the stories in the meantime were better. Right now im less interested in Dante as the lead so sending him to hell is a good way to shake him up.

I like @Lain's suggestion tho.

 

[DarkSlayer54]

The only thing I care about story-wise is whether or not they shed some light into Vergil's fate after DMC1.

That's literally it. If they kill off Dante in DMC5, I wouldn't care too much. They clearly have no issue retconning anything that came prior, which makes me feel like... eh, whatever. DMC4 was the nail, and DMC5 seems to be the hammer driving it in.

 

[DragonMaster2010]

First episode.

I got a job for you.
I don't want to.
Why?
I'm going to eat pizza instead. Not first, not on the way. Instead of.
I guess I'll blackmail you into doing your job again.

And i doesn't get better after that.

On top of that how often do you see him sleeping? How many times does he refuse the jobs or to even to get up? The guy lacks energy and drive and it takes nagging and insults to make him move. And this isn't one of those depression kind of energyless situations, he both looks bored and is boring. Dante used get excited at the prospect of action, ready to fight with a smile on his face. This guy doesn't look like he's ever ran before.

Which leads me to the most important part, the guy doesn't smile. I saw him smile maybe twice in the whole show, which doesn't bode well, and, worst still, he doesn't laugh, he is laughed at. He is the butt of the jokes and no one respects him, most everyone treats him like trash, and rightly so. If I'd seen the anime first I would've never gotten into the series because Dante is just so unimpressive and sluggish. Basically, the exhibits the exact opposite traits that made me fall in love with his character in the first place, which is why I hate this show with such passion.

It really wasn't until I watched the anime again that I realized just how dreadfully dull he actually was.

He genuinely took everything with a bored sigh to the point that his very speech patterns sounds more like an old man in the English Dub. I dunno if that's just Reuben phoning it in or not, but it shows. It's sad at how far his character really fell in this short-lived anime. Dante feels like a boring sap of his former glory, or at the very least a version of DMC1 Dante without all the cool and more of the blech. If not for his expensive looking clothes and good looks, what's so different from him and those drunk cops who's good at their job but do nothing but drink and sleep all day with five 'o clock shadow and a beer belly.

Even in canon, Dante did other jobs besides demons related stuff. He was a detective, and a hitman once so those SHOULD be keeping him afloat. But we barely see much of those qualities because it's always demon-related. And then sometimes he doesn't even take those demon jobs. He just waves them off like nothing or considers them a drag, which goes against Dante's usual style. And then added with the way Lady sucks him dry of money, Trish left him and also sucks him dry of money, Patty being a bratty child, Morrison forcing him to take jobs, makes me believe that Dante isn't depressed, he's just a lazy bum.

 

[berto]

I dunno if that's just Reuben phoning it in or not, but it shows.

According to an interview he did the anime was the last production at ADV films. They were literally emptying out the building and tearing down walls while they were recording so when he delivered a line the first time that was a take, they wouldn't let do another take. He mentioned that he would often screw up on purpose just so he could try again, but the people working at the studio were all done and the studio was just waiting for them to finish to officially end.

And then sometimes he doesn't even take those demon jobs.

I think the idea of his being hard to persuade to work came from the novel where Tony would refuse jobs that Enzo, or anyone, really, offered him, not out of sloth but rather the implication was that he had a 6th sense about these things and when the right job came, the one that had that certain something, those are the ones he took. He was picky but not lazy. He enjoyed getting into fights, going against other swordsmen, and he thrived in the action. Here, though, I think someone read the passage and they interpreted the whole thing as Dante being lazy and took encouraging to make him move.

 

[DarkSlayer54]

Started watching the anime again... DMC1 Dante is my favourite version of the character, and that being said... the anime would be second place for me. I can definitely see the complaints in the first two episodes already (haven't watched it since it first came out).

Lots of silly stuff in it though. No reason for him to be in debt... and there are flickers of his DMC1 personality, but... he sounds far too bored, imo. Better than him retaining his DMC3 personality post... well... DMC3.

 

[Sean Gow]

Yeah I hate this too. It really got under my skin when this news hit.

I think I’m one of the only people who actually loves DMC2. It’s so moody and I loved Dante in it. I don’t know whether it’s to do with my age at the time it came out and it takes me back to memories of me and my best friend waiting and waiting and waiting for it to come out and we were only what.. 10? Regardless, I love DMC2. The only time it bores me is some of the battles on Dante Must Die! Can just be tedious.

But

Didn’t Itsuno ACTUALLY say that we were going to finally see why Dante ended up the way he did in DMC2??
He said something like ‘I’m excited to see how fans react to the connection between 2 and 5’

Don’t quote me on that because I am definitely paraphrasing there.

And ages ago, someone threw Matt on his toes about 5 being a sequel to 2 and not 4, and he flat out confirmed it.

So that leads me to believe that 5 being a sequel to 4 is not going to have anything to do with the story... so if that is the case, then those of us who prefer the 3,1,4,2 can just stick to it in our own minds.

This does throw a spanner in the works though because I had this whole scenario in my head about the idea that Nero has been searching for Dante for years. DURING the events of DMC2.

The reason the world is infested with demons is because Dante has been in hell this whole time.

The reason V is searching for him and all this other stuff, I totally just made all this stuff up in my head because it kinda just made sense.

So now what??

‘Can’t a guy get a break?? I just woke up from a long ass nap’

Only time will tell I guess

 

[LordOfDarkness]

It’s a no from me.

Regardless to whatever anyone thinks about Devil May Cry 2 its existence as canon to the series is established already. Likewise with the chronological order of the games within the series. Why should it be changed around? I was excited to hear that we were finally getting a game set after DMC 2 and now they turn around and say we’ve always had a game set after 2 we just made this change almost 11 years later. Come on, talk about inconsistencies.

I’m sorry but I’m not someone that likes random things sprung on me and this doesn’t sit well with me. Furthermore, way to go with AGAIN NOT having to address anything about DMC 2 by just saying “It already happened ages ago and we had 4 after it”. Okay, so what about the story in between 2-4? Are we going to get that for DMC 6? Probably not.

And this is why it sucks. It is canon as unfortunate as that sounds and it DOES muddle the timeline up because they consistently don’t want to properly address it. As well as 5’s story might be or fit with the rest of the series, DMC 2 will always be remembered as the ‘wtf is this?’ game for DMC franchise. Like it always has and now obviously always will be. You don’t get answers by making more and more confusing questions.

 

[DarkSlayer54]

It’s a no from me.

Regardless to whatever anyone thinks about Devil May Cry 2 its existence as canon to the series is established already. Likewise with the chronological order of the games within the series. Why should it be changed around? I was excited to hear that we were finally getting a game set after DMC 2 and now they turn around and say we’ve always had a game set after 2 we just made this change almost 11 years later. Come on, talk about inconsistencies.

I’m sorry but I’m not someone that likes random things sprung on me and this doesn’t sit well with me. Furthermore, way to go with AGAIN NOT having to address anything about DMC 2 by just saying “It already happened ages ago and we had 4 after it”. Okay, so what about the story in between 2-4? Are we going to get that for DMC 6? Probably not.

And this is why it sucks. It is canon as unfortunate as that sounds and it DOES muddle the timeline up because they consistently don’t want to properly address it. As well as 5’s story might be or fit with the rest of the series, DMC 2 will always be remembered as the ‘wtf is this?’ game for DMC franchise. Like it always has and now obviously always will be. You don’t get answers by making more and more confusing questions.

Not to mention, the anime ends by implying that DMC4 takes place immediately after it. That's either noncanon now, or they were talking about a different mission that we haven't seen yet.