Your thoughts on bringing Lucia back in DMC6

[Goldsickle]

If I remember well, the amulet system only affects your Devil Trigger?
It'd be nice if the amulet also influences regular moves and "loadouts" can be toggled with the D-pad.

 

[V's patron]

I don't think bringing back Lady and Trish was a bad idea. However they were poorly used since their intro games so i get why some fans are reluctant to bring Lucia back.

Honestly i rather they bring in new blood than fumble around with old characters they don't know what to do with.

 

[windleopard]

That's already two too many. The more characters you play as the less the lead actually gets.

Dante still had a large amount of screen time despite having two other leads. It's really not that big a deal.

There is not need for 3 or 5 or so on playable characters. 1 Should've been enough, 2 is pushing it, 3 is a crowd.


Of which we could've gotten rid of most and nobody would've been the wiser. Remove Trish and Lady and the story wouldn't be any different and Morrison hardly contributed to squad. Nico is the only one that has any excuse to be there so she can make arms but the rest of the didn't do anything that was so critical that they had to be there. Make the Artemis and Cavalier plain bosses and what's left for them?


DMC5 is nowhere nearly as large as RE6 was, nor any MG game, to accommodate any large cast and any other RE game at least had the cast contribute in some way, be it to just bite the bullet. These forced cameos offer nothing beyond fan service and they cheapen the characters. Both Trish and Lady were these iconic figures in their respective games and made legitimate impact on the story but there is nothing left of those traits, they have all but nothing to do here and they deserved better than a glorified cameo.

This is a completely different argument from "the game is crowded". I agree on giving Trish and Lady better things to do but they didn't overcrowd the game.

Inherently and intrinsically, no, but this is them getting along and it's nothing.


Welp, here it's not doing them any favors and it's boring.

And how do you know? It isn't like we've actually seen all three women on screen together at once. This is total guess work on your part.

Pick one. Anything would be fine. Work, a fight for the office, a trinket, a philosophical difference of opinion.

Or you could just not bother at all because anything you pick would likely come across as forced, annoying and pointless. Again, Dante and Vergil's rivalry made sense for the situation. Giving Trish, Lucia and Lady a rivalry for the sake of it would do the story and writing no good at all.

 

[berto]

Dante still had a large amount of screen time despite having two other leads. It's really not that big a deal.

DMC is not RE. It doesn't get the budget to accommodate for all those playable characters to each get a complete experience. A large amount of 'screen time' is not a full game. It was bad enough when there were 2 who had the same stages in half a game but now there are 3, each getting less than that. Having more characters sounds good on paper but when you apply it you end up with another DMC4 SE where you have 5 characters and the exact same stages to use them in. It's much easier to get burned out on a character and, by extension, their game when you have so little to do with them.

Also, there aren't 3 leads. Nero is the lead and the other 2 are the guest characters, just like how Vergil and Lucia were in 3 and 2 respectively.

 

[windleopard]

DMC is not RE. It doesn't get the budget to accommodate for all those playable characters to each get a complete experience. A large amount of 'screen time' is not a full game. It was bad enough when there were 2 who had the same stages in half a game but now there are 3, each getting less than that. Having more characters sounds good on paper but when you apply it you end up with another DMC4 SE where you have 5 characters and the exact same stages to use them in. It's much easier to get burned out on a character and, by extension, their game when you have so little to do with them.

Also, there aren't 3 leads. Nero is the lead and the other 2 are the guest characters, just like how Vergil and Lucia were in 3 and 2 respectively.

Dante has had four games to himself and a fourth one where he momentarily hi-jacked the plot away from the actual protagonist. And I'm not seeing any large amount of this so called burnout affecting DMC 5 anytime soon. That might be your experience but it doesn't apply to everyone else or even the majority.

A story can have more than one lead. Dante and V are not "guest characters" in 5. Their roles in the plot are far too vital for that. Kratos in Mortal Kombat and Soul Calibur is a guest character.

DMC 5 is not DMC 4 special edition. The latter was just an excuse to have Vergil, Lady and Trish as playable characters and a way to guage interest in Classic DMC.

 

[berto]

Dante has had four games to himself and a fourth one where he momentarily hi-jacked the plot away from the actual protagonist.

You're missing the point, completely. It's not about how many games Dante got all to himself, it's about what happens when you split a game to a whole lot of characters and you can't accommodate them, as was the case with DMC4SE. As much as it pains me to say DMC4 would've been better if it had been focused on either Nero or Dante, not both. Instead we have Nero, who's left with an anemic combat system, and Dante, who gets no stages of his own.

And I'm not seeing any large amount of this so called burnout affecting DMC 5 anytime soon.

I'm not saying that people got burned out in 5 I'm saying that it's easier to do so when you stuff a whole lot of characters on so few stages, as it happened with DMC4SE, which people have been burned out on since, of which people have said so here. If that's not enough evidence look at the decline of videos relating to DMC4 after it's release. Yeah, at first people worked the game, but the decline of works related to it diminished exponentially faster than the standard edition of 4. it's especially bad with Vergil who you have to basically play the game twice in one go.

Now, imagine what will happen when DMC5SE comes out and none of the new characters get their own stages. Let's say that it's Vergil, Trish, Lady and possibly Lucia. Are all these stages still going to be as fresh? In that same vein, constantly adding more characters doesn't automatically make the game better. In fact, it just thins the experience splitting focus around too many characters. It would be better to focus on one character and build mechanics, enemies and combat.

Dante and V are not "guest characters" in 5.

Side characters, then, because leads get just as much focus. Leads get equal split which is not the case here. Nero has the most stages, first and last, he's front and center to everything, including game cover, his face on the front of the soundtrack, he's front and largest on the light novel cover and he's the first person you see in the game menu while the other two show up later on and are tiny, tiny, by comparison.

 

[V's patron]

My pitch for a Nero-centered game would be to take a page out of Marvel's Defenders and have him team up with 2 or 3 new characters. We could sneak Lucia in because she's never met Nero before.

Gameplay-wise Nero's toolkit isn't that huge so its easier to keep track of everything. Storywise I don't like Nero that much and I rather have the option to not play as him.

I'm still thinking a potential DMC2 remake is the best choice for her. To me, she's a striking design and little else so redoing her first impression might help her. It's not essential as you would just find something new for her to do in 6 anyway.

 

[Ronin]

Who wants to see Lucia return as Nero’s partner on the battlefield? A new member in his mobile branch?

 

[Morgan]

Lucia has a specific role as Protector of Dumary Island, so there'd have to be a good reason why she leaves her home to assist Nero. She's fine as a solo act to me. Not everyone needs to be accessory to the Sons of Sparda.

As an aside: all this catfight talk is nonsense to me. Episode 4 of the anime happened. And it sucked. Because instead of the plot being resolved quickly, Trish instigated a fight with Lady for no real reason despite what should've been an obvious power gap, and she pretty much still lost outside of relying on her powers. Then Lady and Trish both defaulted to nagging at Dante and settling their issues with shopping, which isn't any better.

Y'all know women are people, right? And that they do more than bicker at each other, bicker at a man, or just shop?

Don't let dumbass writing in canon force you guys into dumbass fan ideas. Do better.

 

[berto]

Episode 4 of the anime happened.

Yeah, but the anime sucked. I wouldn't trust it to have a competent execution of any concept even if it was fleshed out beforehand.

Because instead of the plot being resolved quickly, Trish instigated a fight with Lady for no real reason despite what should've been an obvious power gap, and she pretty much still lost outside of relying on her powers.

And that they do more than bicker at each other, bicker at a man, or just shop?

Case and point. That's pretty much all they ended up being in that episode. And, really, were they any better after this point in the anime? They can basically be narrowed down to being abusive towards Dante, though, in the anime, he is just as bad and rather deserves it, but that's getting off track.

Anyway, I stand by what I said. Not sure why it's so important for everyone for me to change my mind on this but this

Don't let dumbass writing in canon force you guys into dumbass fan ideas. Do better.

Nor why you're all so adamant, but I'm sticking to my opinion.

 

[Morgan]

Yeah, but the anime sucked. I wouldn't trust it to have a competent execution of any concept even if it was fleshed out beforehand.

Yeah, but everything after the third game sucked, including the novels. Actually thanks to 5, I should amend that to say everything starting with the third game has sucked. But my opinion about DMC3 is a non-secret.

The character interactions being "boring" is the literal least of this series's problem since for the most part the games haven't been boring "where it counts" (gameplay, for most people) and the series has had a consistent writing team for at least three games. The issue is that team just doesn't give a good goddamn about competent characterization of anyone with a name. Dante is an unintelligent slob, Vergil is a petty mass murderer because mommy didn't love him, and Nero has an inferiority complex somehow despite getting over a similar conflict in the 4th game, and that's just the main characters they claim to care about. It might as well have been written by someone on Tumblr given the reduction to one single facet of their character being expected to carry them across a whole game.

Making the women bicker because incompetent writers made "women getting along [in a stereotypical way]" boring doesn't fix the problem, which is incompetent writers making them stereotypical. It just gives them a different means of focus for their incompetence, and then surprise, it turns out the women catfighting sucks too! Because of incompetent writers.

But I mean, if "boring" is the sole focus of ideas, then it's also not boring if Dante were murdered right at the start of DMC6 and the rest of the plot was 80s Robocop, or if Nero ditched Kyrie and confessed romantic love to another male character, or if Vergil went full Wesker and adopted the tentacle thing. But the ideas themselves aren't worth a damn. They're just ideas. And not being boring hasn't stopped the game's plot, dialogue, and characterization so far being gutter trash.

Do you have anything that distinguishes "women not getting along" from Tumblr-tier execution expressed in the series so far? That's not trying to make you change your opinion, it's just a question. You can't let other people do the legwork of making your idea work, it's your idea. That's what the thread is about.

 

[Ronin]

Um... anybody have anything that can help me fix Lucia entirely, giving her the "Nero treatment"?

 

[V's patron]

I dug this fanart of a potential lucia design.

Trust me, I'd rewrite 2 to have V or Vijay instead of DMC2 Dante............if i wasn't lazy........

@Ronin
Nero's claim to fame is being Vergil's kid.........so giving her a previous connection to Vergil is all i got......ex-lover? Former student?

I'm in between @berto and @Morgan on a potential Lady/lucia/Trish teamup. I don't want them bickering 24/7 as you wanna see them actually work together. But I'm not against an ideological conflict breaking out between them. Conflict is a way to define character.

 

[BrawlMan]

I would not mind seeing her again, but odds are she won't be coming back.

 

[berto]

@Morgan
I'm not sure where most of that came from but I'm pretty sure I haven't mentioned this having anything to do with the anime till you brought it up. The fact is, I just think rivalry is more interesting. Has nothing to do with 'women bicker.' It has to do with rivalry being more interesting. If Tango and Cash only got along the movie would be half as fun. If Goku and Vegeta didn't fight it'd be dull. The fact that they're women is pretty secondary, if relevant at all. The fact that having a rival makes for better relationships than just being, which is what they are right now, just there.

The character interactions being "boring" is the literal least of this series's problem

Not to me. Having memorable characters is tremendously important to me, specially in a series where I've been a fan in great part because of how memorable Dante was... Used to be, anyway.

The issue is that team just doesn't give a good goddamn about competent characterization of anyone with a name.

In a very real sense, that is the issue. Saying that's how it's been is not a good enough reason to not want better.

Dante is an unintelligent slob, Vergil is a petty mass murderer because mommy didn't love him, and Nero has an inferiority complex somehow despite getting over a similar conflict in the 4th game, and that's just the main characters they claim to care about.

Yeah, I have already started work on my thoughts on that. The written portion is finished, just needs to be translated, recorded, edited, composed, and all that, but that's a topic for another time. I will say this: That whole Vergil thing is DmC slap. They changed him to these mommy issues because Vergil in DmC had them, not because he was like that from the start. Vergil wanted power to protect his mother, no because she didn't love him, which is not even related. As for Nero, I don't know why they have to make him whine about something in every game but there you have it. As for Dante, that's pretty close to my, as I call it, thesis statement on the character.

And not being boring hasn't stopped the game's plot, dialogue, and characterization so far being gutter trash.

Again, demanding or, at least, hoping for better is not is hardly the worst thing one can do, and this is a free forum. Presenting thoughts and ideas is what we're here for. Chances are it'll never happen but writing about it is a form of catharsis.

Do you have anything that distinguishes "women not getting along" from Tumblr-tier execution expressed in the series so far? That's not trying to make you change your opinion, it's just a question. You can't let other people do the legwork of making your idea work, it's your idea. That's what the thread is about.

You make it sound like I already have the job. It's a wishlist, not a factual event where we're pitching our ideas for production. You're making it sound like this needs to go from a wishlist to santa and turned into a thesis with citations and powerpoint presentation.

As I said above, I think relationships with rivalries are more interesting, that they help push the characters, when applicable. Not all relationships need to be thus and they might not be the only game in town but for women, who have been relegated to being little more than cameos, it would give them a more interesting set of interactions. The fact that they're women has nothing to do with it, it's the fact that they need a shot of adrenaline to their presence in the game.

Um... anybody have anything that can help me fix Lucia entirely, giving her the "Nero treatment"?

Can you elaborate?

 

[Morgan]

@berto Okay, I get what you're saying but "Bickering women are funnier than women be shoppin'. Catfights over nothing would be gold." is something you actually said. I'm not gonna hold you about it, I'm just confirming that's a thing that happened. Other than that I also want the characterization and plot to be better in the series but being honest, we probably won't get it unless there's a new writer on the team. Me poking at ideas and wanting to know where people come from with them isn't new, I did the same thing in the Kyrie thread because any schmoe can think of an idea and go "Yea, that doesn't need explaining", but it's not about just the idea and no one is a mind-reader. I bet DMC5 pre-release was hyped like its b.s. was worthy of Shakespeare and the best and darkest story the series has ever had. Except it's not. DMC5 distilled to base ideas probably sounds really good or could be made to sound good. But it's not. An idea is just an idea.

The thread isn't about a hypothetical situation where the existing writing team fleshes out the ideas presented and that's the point. It's not about them. Not sure why elaboration on an idea would only "count" if anyone was officially hired to do it or there was some promise of sending the ideas to Capcom to work with. The actual writing of canon has been so consistently bad in recent installments that any idea can be (and has been) presented terribly and anyone saying anything here would be pointless if that's the way the thread worked. Lady being a "complex character with trauma from patricide" that was never brought up in 4 is trash, Nero having trauma about Credo dying when he never mentioned that in 4 is trash, Vergil's Majin-Vegeta "I gotta beat this low-class clown!" arc and getting some weird half-done redemption is trash. And it all has to do with execution and how it was fleshed out. It's well known the execution/presentation has been bad and could be better, but as far as this thread, people's idea of what constitutes "better" will differ outside of "not what we got in previous games". It's more engaging for thread purposes if ideas people are posting are elaborated by those presenting them instead of doing the verbal equivalent of plopping a shoebox with Schrödinger's Cat in it and walking away expecting no one to lift the lid.

@Ronin Unclear, since "fix[ing] Lucia entirely" suggests she's "flawed entirely" as she is, when the real worst part about DMC2 was that Dante was in it. Lucia's character arc is complete so rehashing a point of insecurity that she has to get over to constitute "development" would fall on its face.

 

[V's patron]

@Ronin so what about Lucia needs fixing?

 

[Ronin]

@Ronin so what about Lucia needs fixing?

Everything! Her character, playstyle, who to voice her than the last one and who'd be a better face model. Including background and development.

 

[Foxtrot94]

That whole Vergil thing is DmC slap

Agreed. The DmCfication of Vergil already started in DMC4SE but now it has been taken to another level.

I almost expect them to give him a silly fedora, a bigger d%^$, and a computer expertise background in the future. Smh.

 

[V's patron]

@Ronin
Lucia's real problem is DMC2's poor reception. Plus Itsuno has some baggage over it and was unwilling to deal with it. So her chances of coming back are pretty low. I know she pops up in "Before the nightmare" but I'm not getting my hopes up.

Personality wise, I'd revamp her to be more like Farah Black from "Dirk Gently".-

DMC has a problem with quiet/introverted characters so having Lucia be awkward and shy outside of her duties is a fun USP.

I'd probably have her team up with V during the 1 month timeskip. Her reunion with Vergil would be like this scene from Doctor Who.

PS. V is not just kingdom hearts nonsense- he's also Doctor Who nonsense.

@Morgan has a point about Lucia being based in Dumary Island but you can always invent a reason to go back to Dumary Island. Has any of the other characters been there besides Dante? I'm pretty sure Nero hasn't left Fortuna till the beginning of 5.