Would Old Vergil have killed Lilith?

[Loopy]

Lady is and was a stranger to Vergil. We're talking about a scenario where Vergil would have someone close to him in danger, not a stranger.
Plus who this female friend of Vergil could have influenced him into different thoughts.

Well, taking into account what NT Vergil did to Kat: he used her for her powers, played with her emotions, put her in situations where he knew she could die to further his agenda, I don't think classic Vergil's treatment of Kat would be much different.
Classic Vergil was happy to side with Arkham for as long as he was useful, but then turned on him when Arkham showed weakness over not killing Lady.That to me is similar to how NT Vergil treated Kat. He accpeted her for as long as her powers were useful. But as soon as she became a danger to his plans, he refused to rescue her from Mundus and risked her life by taking the shot at Lilith during the exchange. I could see classic Vergil doing the same.

So really I would say Vergil would treat Kat with the same contempt he has for Arkham and Lady and only keep her with him for as long as her powers were useful to his goals.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

I don't see how it's a cheapshot. My point by telling you to imagine opposite scenario of what happened is that Vergil did not need to take a cheapshot.
Therefor it is not a cheapshot because:

1. He's not desperate
2. He didn't seem to think about it before attacking i.e he didn't care

You don't have to be desperate to take a cheapshot, you just...do it. Premeditation for doing so also isn't necessary, not that taking a cheapshot requires such a huge degree of calculation anyway, you just do it. You see an opening, and you take it. It is, and always will bea cheapshot, because of exactly what you're doing.

Like I said before, the outcome doesn't matter, just the fact that a cheapshot was taken. Hell, even DmC Vergil took a cheapshot at Lilith.

Plus this female friend of Vergil could have influenced him into different thoughts.

If you go that far, you're getting into some really theoretical territory. If Vergil had himself a stable girlfriend, maybe he wouldn't have been so power hungry to begin with Possibilities are endless at that point.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

He says something like 'Might controls everything . And without strength you cannot protect anything, let alone yourself.' I guess you could take those lines to mean Vergil was feeling guilt over not being able to protect his mother and brother from the demon attack. It also seems to me that Vergil wanted the power to protect himself as well.
On the other hand, considering this quote was said to Dante, it could be Vergil's way of trying to get Dante to accept his demon powers so that Dante can protect himself from Vergil...considering what Vergil does to Dante after that quote, that would make sense.

I was just about to say, yeah, it feels like the latter. Vergil seemed less about explaining himself, and more about extolling the virtues of being strong to his brother, who chose a path that he feels would need Dante to embrace the power they both know he has.

 

[Loopy]

I was just about to say, yeah, it feels like the latter. Vergil seemed less about explaining himself, and more about extolling the virtues of being strong to his brother, who chose a path that he feels would need Dante to embrace the power they both know he has.

I think he even says 'why do you refuse to gain power? The power of our father Sparda'. That happens in the same scene, so it would cement the idea that Vergil is arguing with Dante about why he should gain the same power...almost like he's baffled as to why Dante woudln't want to considering the power is their birthright.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

I think he even says 'why do you refuse to gain power? The power of our father Sparda'. That happens in the same scene, so it would cement the idea that Vergil is arguing with Dante about why he should gain the same power...almost like he's baffled as to why Dante woudln't want to considering the power is their birthright.

Yeah! It's sorta like, regardless of what Vergil thinks of Dante's plans, for him to not accept whatever they've got inside is just plain wrong. Maybe Vergil cared more about the potential Dante had than Dante himself, haha.

 

[Loopy]

Yeah! It's sorta like, regardless of what Vergil thinks of Dante's plans, for him to not accept whatever they've got inside is just plain wrong. Maybe Vergil cared more about the potential Dante had than Dante himself, haha.

Not too different from NT Vergil then. He had Dante doing all the dirty work, putting him in danger while he watched and waited in the shadows. The as soon as Dante questions him at the end about the right to controling people, Vergil turns on him.
I think NT Vergil had some feelings for Dante as a brother, but Vergil also used Dante because of what he was, his powers, and his role in defeating Mundus and clearing the way for him to rule the humans. Vergil just couldn't understand why Dante refused the offer to rule. To Vergil it would make sense. Nephilim are better than humans in his eyes, so to him it would be the right thing to rule.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

I did like Vergil's "I loved you, brother," before he escaped in the end. Cuts deep to think that your own flesh and blood wouldn't feel the same way as you, especially about something you consider to be a birthright or family legacy.

 

[IncarnatedDemon]

Well, taking into account what NT Vergil did to Kat: he used her for her powers, played with her emotions, put her in situations where he knew she could die to further his agenda, I don't think classic Vergil's treatment of Kat would be much different.
Classic Vergil was happy to side with Arkham for as long as he was useful, but then turned on him when Arkham showed weakness over not killing Lady.That to me is similar to how NT Vergil treated Kat. He accpeted her for as long as her powers were useful. But as soon as she became a danger to his plans, he refused to rescue her from Mundus and risked her life by taking the shot at Lilith during the exchange. I could see classic Vergil doing the same.

So really I would say Vergil would treat Kat with the same contempt he has for Arkham and Lady and only keep her with him for as long as her powers were useful to his goals.

Kat is a good while Arkham is evil. So that's not a good comparison.
A better question to ask "Would Vergil risk life of a friend who has supported him, in order to get his hands on Dante's amulet?"

Risking a life of someone who's been there for you for power. "Might controlls everything. And without strength you cannot protect anything, let alone yourself".
I haven't seen Vergil kill or risk life of someone close to him. Dante stabbing is an exception as he and Dante have high speed regeneration.
So how can we call that risking Dante's life if Vergil knew Dante would get backup shortly after getting stabbed?

Suppose a girl had helped Vergil when he was say 16, then this same girl appeared and some villain wanted both amulets or she would be killed.
Would Vergil let the girl die...?
I'm not so sure he would.

You don't have to be desperate to take a cheapshot, you just...do it. Premeditation for doing so also isn't necessary, not that taking a cheapshot requires such a huge degree of calculation anyway, you just do it. You see an opening, and you take it. It is, and always will be a cheapshot, because of exactly what you're doing.
Like I said before, the outcome doesn't matter, just the fact that a cheapshot was taken. Hell, even DmC Vergil took a cheapshot at Lilith.

I fail to see how that is a cheapshot. Taking Vergil's standpoint,
a gang is troubling me and i dont got time,
i kill them quickly without warning.
I know if i wait and give them a warning, same outcome would happen.
So i dont see that as a cheapshot as the gang never had any chance to kill me to begin with.
I don't think continuing on this will lead to anything, so i will just agree to disagree.
As i said, i really dont see attacking someone just to get them out of my way sooner than before as a cheap act.

 

[Loopy]

I did like Vergil's "I loved you, brother," before he escaped in the end. Cuts deep to think that your own flesh and blood wouldn't feel the same way as you, especially about something you consider to be a birthright or family legacy.

It is sad, but in the end, Vergil just didn't understand. It's also a little worrying how quickly Vergil goes from offering rulership of the humans, to fighting Dante and then suddenly declaring how he loved him the past tense. Suddenly because Dante disagrees, Vergil suddenly doesn't love him anymore. That's usally the signs of a sociopath in the making. They don't feel real emotions, just proto emotions.
To me, Vergil loved Dante as a brother, but mostly as a Nephilim and as a tool to further his agenda. But as soon as Dante disagreed, and in Vergil's eyes, betrayed him by refusing to rule, then that love vanished.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Kat is a good while Arkham is evil. So that's not a good comparison.
A better question to ask "Would Vergil risk life of a friend who has supported him, in order to get his hands on Dante's amulet?"

Here's the clincher there. DmC Vergil didn't think of Kat as a friend, just someone he used to reach his goals. Remember how easily he just accepted her fate. He didn't even want to go and save her, and was reluctant to help Dante make the trade for Lilith.

I fail to see how that is a cheapshot. Taking Vergil's standpoint,
a gang is troubling me and i dont got time,
i kill them quickly without warning.
I know if i wait and give them a warning, same outcome would happen.

You can stop right there >.< That part I put in bold and underlined for you? That's why it's a cheapshot.

Again, the outcome does not matter.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

It is sad, but in the end, Vergil just didn't understand. It's also a little worrying how quickly Vergil goes from offering rulership of the humans, to fighting Dante and then suddenly declaring how he loved him the past tense. Suddenly because Dante disagrees, Vergil suddenly doesn't love him anymore. That's usally the signs of a sociopath in the making. They don't feel real emotions, just proto emotions.
To me, Vergil loved Dante as a brother, but mostly as a Nephilim and as a tool to further his agenda. But as soon as Dante disagreed, and in Vergil's eyes, betrayed him by refusing to rule, then that love vanished.

Yeah. Vergil's a fairly cracked individual in DmC.

 

[Loopy]

Kat is a good while Arkham is evil. So that's not a good comparison.
A better question to ask "Would Vergil risk life of a friend who has supported him, in order to get his hands on Dante's amulet?"

I don't think good and evil have any place in Vergil's world, his thinking or his morality. Vergil sees people int erms of how he can use them, what they can do for him. Then as soon as they are not useful, he will cast them aside.
He stabs Arkham after he shows weakness and then turns on Dante after Dante helped him defeat Arkham.

Risking a life of someone who's been there for you for power. "Might controlls everything. And without strength you cannot protect anything, let alone yourself".

In that quote, Vergil is not literally talking about protecting people close to you. I see it more about Vergil being annoyed by Dante's refusal to accept Sparda's power, power that Vergil sees as belonging to them by birthright. This is further supported by Vergil saying in the same scene 'Why do you refuse to gain power? The power of our father Sparda.' If anything, I would say the 'protect anything' would be Vergil's way of playing to Dante's developing sense of wanting to protect humanity. I don't think Vergil is referring to himself. All Vergil cares about is Vergil by this point in the game.

I haven't seen Vergil kill or risk life of someone close to him. Dante stabbing is an exception as he and Dante have high speed regeneration.
So how can we call that risking Dante's life if Vergil knew Dante would get backup shortly after getting stabbed?

Suppose a girl had helped Vergil when he was say 16, then this same girl appeared and some villain wanted both amulets or she would be killed.
Would Vergil let the girl die...?
I'm not so sure he would.

Even so, he did stab his brother to get his hands on the amulet. How was Vergil to know that Dante's powers would awaken and save him? It was a gamble at best.

I think Vergil would accept the help of the girl if she was useful to him and then if it was a choice between that girl and the amulets, he would choose the amulets. Vergil care about one thing: power. He will do anything to get it. Betray and kill people who think they are allied with him, stab his brother, fight his brother repeatedly, and even try his luck against Mundus to prove his power.

 

[IncarnatedDemon]

But definition speaks of a unfair attack. How is it unfair if outcome would been the same either way?
Sure if you don't take into account the strength of Vergil compared to the thugs, then yes i agree it is a cheapshot.
But if you do take that into consideration, then i really can't see it as a cheapshot.
Get what i mean?

 

[Demi-fiend]

What the hell does moral alignment have to do with underhanded tactics?

They could come from either side. Especially if you're talking about war history.

 

[Loopy]

But definition speaks of a unfair attack. How is it unfair if outcome would been the same either way?
Sure if you don't take into account the strength of Vergil compared to the thugs, then yes i agree it is a cheapshot.
But if you do take that into consideration, then i really can't see it as a cheapshot.
Get what i mean?

Usually in a situation where someone feels threatened, the threatened person gives a warning like 'stay away'. The if the attacker continues, the threatened person should attack to defend themselves.
In the case of Vergil, those thugs weren't causing much problem to him, especially considering they were human. They were so weak compared to him, yet he suddenly cuts them up. He could have at least warned them like he did with Arkham in the library. Vergil tells Arkham to leave, Arkham refuses so Vergil kills that lady to further prove his warning.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

But definition speaks of a unfair attack. How is it unfair if outcome would been the same either way?
Sure if you don't take into account the strength of Vergil compared to the thugs, then yes i agree it is a cheapshot.
But if you do take that into consideration, then i really can't see it as a cheapshot.
Get what i mean?

I understand what you mean, but I'm tellin' yah, the outcome of the attack doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if Vergil could have killed them or not, by definition he took a cheapshot, an unfair attack. The unfairness of it is because only the attacker knows it's coming (something I mentioned a while ago). The concept of fairness speaks volumes of how people generally feel engagements are supposed to go, and that is with both people knowing they're actually in a fight. Ready FIGHT! Heaven or Hell! Let's ROCK!

If I just punched you in the side of the head, I'd be 1) a gigantic douchenozzle, and 2) taking a cheapshot, because you had no idea it was coming. Once again, the outcome, and even the length of time spent thinking about attacking are irrelevant.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

What the hell does moral alignment have to do with underhanded tactics?

They could come from either side. Especially if you're talking about war history.

Characters of questionable moral fiber tend to throw underhanded. They throoooooooow like giiirrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrls! is what I'm saying.

 

[EllDawn]

Characters of questionable moral fiber tend to throw underhanded. They throoooooooow like giiirrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrls! is what I'm saying.

Throw like girls? I resent that. lol.

 

[IncarnatedDemon]

I don't think good and evil have any place in Vergil's world, his thinking or his morality. Vergil sees people int erms of how he can use them, what they can do for him. Then as soon as they are not useful, he will cast them aside.
He stabs Arkham after he shows weakness and then turns on Dante after Dante helped him defeat Arkham.

In that quote, Vergil is not literally talking about protecting people close to you. I see it more about Vergil being annoyed by Dante's refusal to accept Sparda's power, power that Vergil sees as belonging to them by birthright. This is further supported by Vergil saying in the same scene 'Why do you refuse to gain power? The power of our father Sparda.' If anything, I would say the 'protect anything' would be Vergil's way of playing to Dante's developing sense of wanting to protect humanity. I don't think Vergil is referring to himself. All Vergil cares about is Vergil by this point in the game.


Even so, he did stab his brother to get his hands on the amulet. How was Vergil to know that Dante's powers would awaken and save him? It was a gamble at best.

I think Vergil would accept the help of the girl if she was useful to him and then if it was a choice between that girl and the amulets, he would choose the amulets. Vergil care about one thing: power. He will do anything to get it. Betray and kill people who think they are allied with him, stab his brother, fight his brother repeatedly, and even try his luck against Mundus to prove his power.

numbered according to pharagraph:
1. From beginning it was clear he wanted his father's power. During their first fight til the last with Dante. And yes he used Arkham, but that's a evil person, i doubt he would use a human with pure heart and cast this person aside when he is finished with using her/him.

2. Good argument. I think it's very reasonable thinking, so thanks for that.

3. Well they are brothers, twin brothers, and they share the same blood. Plus before Dante awakened his demonic form, he was stabbed (in opening) in chest, arm and legs.

4. I find it very odd to fight a demon just to prove your superiority. And why would Vergil care for a single amulet without having the other? The amulet were given to him by his mother, so if he cares about his mother, he could care about a girl that has been kind to him. And like i said, him using a evil person and possibility of using someone with pure heart...sounds very questionable.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Throw like girls? I resent that. lol.

How dare I?! Me sexist pig :8 *woink woink*

I retract my statement, prostrate myself, and ask for your forgiveness.