Why you shouldn't use "True" as an argument

[SoLoGaMeR]

A salute to you, Lulzy, for this great thread.
I can see now why you hold so much respect for that former mod. He seems like a real great guy.
And you also make a good point. Hopefully this will prevent at least some pointless flame wars in the future.

snip

Very true and no one can expect more consideration from your side.
Sometimes you just have to use such drastic measures.
And from what I have seen so far on this forum. I would say you have done and you are doing a fantastic job.
Many other forums about this game series are not as friendly and welcoming as this one.
I would like to think now after reading Lulzies post that part of the reason for that is that the mods on this forum are in fact good mods.
So, props to you, good sir, for doing a good job despite all the obstacles.

snip

snip

While I agree with what you all said about this issue, I still have to add something to this topic.

I think in the cases you both described it is pretty much clear that you deal with trolls, the bad kind of trolls.
I agree with you that what these people do is wrong and pointless, however if you let yourself get agitated because of such people you are not one bit better than them. Not one bit.
I have seen this happen often enough where people I thought were nice would let themselves get provoked by trolls and thus allow thus trolls to drag them down to their niveau.
responding to a troll like "go away, you troll!" (this is just the censored version btw) or in any negative manner is what they want. By doing such things you become just as pathetic as that troll and you become an accomplice in derailing a thread from its purpose.
Think of it like this: Trolls are people infected with the Troll-Virus. By responding in any negative manner to infected people you yourself get infected too and become a troll yourself.

So what to do if you cant bring yourself to ignore these kind of people? simple: laugh, literally laugh.
It will calm you down and help you to get your mind in a positive, happy condition.
It doesnt matter what you think or laugh about. You can laugh at the troll too. just be positive.
Then you can reply in a positive manner to the troll.
If you would like an example for this: this is the same way I dealt with Mr. Lulzy in the IP Recognition thread.
Act friendly towards the troll, act as if you honestly care about their opinion and you have laid the pathway to their doom.
And make sure not to be condescending in your posts. Never show that you are actually bothered or ****ed off in the slightest by their post.
I myself even go so far as to "like" their post if possible. then I ask them a few questions about the matter at hand and the job is almost done.

Reacting friendly and open to the troll will confuse the troll since it does not expect a positive reaction. It wants to provoke a negative reaction after all. In that state the troll wont be able to properly reply to your questions.
(Not that trolls have content or substance in their opinion to answer your questions anyways. If that were the case they wouldnt be trolls.)
They will contradict themselves without a doubt if they are trolls, thus whatever point they made trying to provoke you will become invalid.

However, beware that even in this positive manner you dont want to waste too much time and posts on the troll.
It is still derailing from the topic after all and thus respectless towards the one who started the thread.
So best limit yourself to a maximum of 3 posts you will spend on the troll. If the troll is still desperately trying to provoke you all the while making a fool of itself by keeping to contradict itself after your 3rd post, then it clearly outed itself as a troll with the intention to troll.
Go ahead and laugh at the stupid troll for being stupid, while you calmly make use of the report button.
You have set the troll up to a point where it not only makes a fool of itself, but also outs itself as a troll.
All you need to do now is wait for a mod to give the finishing blow.
If you want to mess with the troll even more and save the thread at the same time, pick a post prior to the entrance of the troll and reply to it. Doesnt matter if you dont have much to say, just continue the original conversation
and shove it in the trolls face that you are suddenly ignoring it after being so friendly to it before.
You can even put him on your ignore list now.

In some cases like with mine and Mr. Lulzys for example, you deal with an unintentional troll or trollish comment.
For whatever reasons these people trolled without really realizing it themselves.
It doesnt matter why. (it could be a lot of reasons from it being just a kid and not knowing better or just having a bad day)
And in these cases the troll might even reflect upon its bad actions and admit their wrong-doings.
Sometimes they might even apologize.
You will be glad that you replied in a positive manner if that is the case, because now there is a chance you might actually make a friend out of your enemy.

These are just my two cents I wanted to throw in.
Dont let yourself get provoked people. The moment you do, it is already over.
You are better than that, arent you?

 

[Loopy]

True. It's best to ignore trolls and not reply. There is nothing to be gained by engaging a troll. Besides, this is the internet. I see no point in getting upset over something in a virtual domain. There's just no point in getting upset over something like that.

 

[SoLoGaMeR]

True. It's best to ignore trolls and not reply. There is nothing to be gained by engaging a troll. Besides, this is the internet. I see no point in getting upset over something in a virtual domain. There's just no point in getting upset over something like that.

exactly. unfortunately some people just cant seem to do it :/
that is why I went out of my way to explain how I usually deal with trolls when I dont ignore them.
At least give people an idea how they should behave if they cant ignore such stuff.

 

[nightrunner_ks]

This is rich coming from the self-proclaimed "troll" who just ruins decent DmC threads.

 

[SoLoGaMeR]

This is rich coming from the self-proclaimed "troll" who just ruins decent DmC threads.

could you elaborate on that please? I am really interested in what you are talking about

 

[Loopy]

could you elaborate on that please? I am really interested in what you are talking about

Maybe not a good idea to ask for more info on here. Ask Nightrunner in a PM for his opinion.

 

[LysseC]

snip

I admit that I am very enthralled by what you say, especially your suggestion about being nice to the troll and asking them polite questions about what they have said.
There are times in which, I think, it takes a great lot of self control to respond kindly to a troll or a flamer. I personally would never be able to kindly laugh at some of them, and try to inspire a constructive dialogue. I admit I have not your faith in the resonableness of humanity...
To people like me, I would simply suggest to walk away silently. If you are not ready to sustain a peaceful conversation, as brief as it may be (your suggestion of not going beyond 3 replies to the troll is very good imo), with the troll, then don't even attempt it.

And, in general, when one posts in a "delicate" thread, such as those that compare DmC to DMC, must ALWAYS pay attention at the way he formulates his phrases. For example, using very short sentences in succession has a strong rhethoric power but is not useful in a discussion, because your statements come out as harsh declarations, and this is most likely to upset people who think differently. It may seem stupid, but try and use more articuate sentences could really be helpful not to pass as a troll.

As for being a true fan, well, that's something really pointless to say. One may say that he has more experience then another, and this may be true: for example, I have been playing DMC for less than a year, and have not played many other games, so I recognize that there are other people who have more experience than me, and thus can make more informed posts than I can do. But this does not mean that I have no right whatsoever to express my opinion, if I do it kindly. Then, people with more experience may because of that see a faul in my reasoning and point it out and thus help me improve.
But that doesn't mean that I am not a true fan, because being a fan of something just means loving and enjoying it.

 

[SoLoGaMeR]

Maybe not a good idea to ask for more info on here. Ask Nightrunner in a PM for his opinion.

ah, I thought I could showcase my point again and I am pretty sure Nightrunner is not a bad troll,
that is why I said that to him ^^

I believe in Nightrunner even though I dont know him at all!! xD

snip

Yes, ignoring and reporting so that mods can handle that person is the best method usually.
and one should use my option only if you have a bit confidence in yourself to stay calm.

oh, I dont respect trolls at all In fact I feel superior to such people which is why I can calmly laugh at them.
You make it sound like I am a saint, which I am not xD

People seem to forget that not everyone is native in the english language and that such things need to be tolerated.
Though of course it does not give off a good impression.
If someone tries to tell me something even if it sounds harsh I will think about it before I judge.
Trolls usually out themselves through their provocative nature.
And as I said never let yourself get provoked by pointless stuff, EVER! XD just laugh instead and you will feel better immediately.

"True Fan" is the most stupid thing I ever heard. For me everyone on this forum is part of the DMC fanbase.
But that does not mean that everyone has to share the same opinion on everything.
We are not all just clones of each other after all ^^
Whoever thinks in those terms should stop and rethink some stuff again.

 

[Chancey289]

could you elaborate on that please? I am really interested in what you are talking about

The guy who's posting ponies everywhere and also being a bit of a jerk who's just annoying to some people. Being in flame wars isn't a lie when you're a person who also tries to sprinkle more lighter fluid on to the flame.

 

[berto]

So what happened to this mighty forum god mod? Well long story short, we drove him off, countless bickering like children and him having to give the EXACT SAME LESSON over and over again, it's no mystery what happened to him, he got SICK OF IT.

Tony LEFT!? When did this 'tell me it isn't happening' happen!??

 

[DreadnoughtDT]

Has anyone heard of Penny Arcade's "Greater Internet ****wad Theory?" Basically, the formula is "Normal Joe + Internet + Anonymity = Total ****wad," and that's basically what trolls do. I am so sick of people proving this formula true that it's not even funny, and to find out that one of the nicest mods on the site left because he couldn't deal with this all is just sickening. I thought Tony was awesome. I talked to him all the time, he was a great guy who would always listen. And now he's gone and we're looking for a new mod. I'd nominate myself, but that would be incredibly dickish of me, and I'd never be able to run this place as effectively as Tony and the others anyway. I'm far too forgiving.

 

[Loopy]

ah, I thought I could showcase my point again and I am pretty sure Nightrunner is not a bad troll,
that is why I said that to him ^^

Nightrunner was not saying that he was a troll. He meant Randomlulz was a troll and wondered why Random of all people was starting a thread with this subject.

Edit: It has just occurred to me that now you have outlined your plan for dealing with trolls (being nice to them and engaging them in polite discourse) they will know what to expect from you and might react differently.

 

[LysseC]

snip

Believe me, I truly think you may be a saint sometimes. Maybe I cannot react like you to a troll because I'm not so secure of myself, and thus I cannot just "feel superior"... But well, that's personal.

And you are right in reminding me that not everyone is fluent in English. I understand that. But it would still be wise to try and construct a phrase like this: "I (personally) think that XXX because YYY and ZZZ" instead of "YYY. XXX. ZZZ.".
That's why I think you are a saint, for trying to see the good in everyone. I am more intolerant about this. I think there is a tangible difference between a phrase that is not much elaborated because the writer is not a native, and a phrase that is not elaborated because the writer wanted it such. This latter case is one that I personally do not approve of, and since I am not a saint like you, I prefer to ignore those posts, because I would not be able to be as kind as you are.

So yeah, if you are an angel, I shall be the devil!:devil:

 

[Loopy]

Believe me, I truly think you may be a saint sometimes. Maybe I cannot react like you to a troll because I'm not so secure of myself, and thus I cannot just "feel superior"... But well, that's personal.
Honestly, I think anyone can feel superior to a troll. It's not hard. But I'd rather not think like that. No point in living life with a superiority complex.
And you are right in reminding me that not everyone is fluent in English. I understand that. But it would still be wise to try and construct a phrase like this: "I (personally) think that XXX because YYY and ZZZ" instead of "YYY. XXX. ZZZ.".
Agreed there. At least those sort of phraes can't be misunderstood.
That's why I think you are a saint, for trying to see the good in everyone. I am more intolerant about this. I think there is a tangible difference between a phrase that is not much elaborated because the writer is not a native, and a phrase that is not elaborated because the writer wanted it such. This latter case is one that I personally do not approve of, and since I am not a saint like you, I prefer to ignore those posts, because I would not be able to be as kind as you are.
Ignoring is better anyway. It shows the troll there is no interest. Replying to them makes them think you are interested and ecourages them in a different way than direct angry confrontation does.
So yeah, if you are a angel, I shall be the devil!:devil:

You remind me of this with those words Also, if we have devil and angel postions then I'll be Nephilim^_^

 

[SoLoGaMeR]

Nightrunner was not saying that he was a troll. He meant Randomlulz was a troll and wondered why Random of all people was starting a thread with this subject.

Edit: It has just occurred to me that now you have outlined your plan for dealing with trolls (being nice to them and engaging them in polite discourse) they will know what to expect from you and might react differently.

I understood that but you should check my reply to chansey to understand what I am talking about.

so what? what are they gonna do? keep provoking me? they can try but they will end up getting reported. change their minds? we migh become friends, yay or simply ignore me? fine by me.

The guy who's posting ponies everywhere and also being a bit of a jerk who's just annoying to some people. Being in flame wars isn't a lie when you're a person who also tries to sprinkle more lighter fluid on to the flame.

so? dont you realize that Lulz now actually seems to have realised that what he was doing was wrong?
I see this post as him trying to redeem himself a bit now.
Are you really so resentful that you cant even give someone a second chance? are you that unforgiving?

And what do you and Nightrunner think you can accomplish with posts like these? (I really am interested in this btw)

It seems like I managed to make Lulzy at least realise some of his mistake with only three posts.
In comparison you and everyone else seem to be so stressed out because you constantly seem to be annoyed by each other that you couldnt reach a solution or a peaceful coexistence over a much longer period of time.

Do you understand where I am coming from? Can you see the difference between our attitudes?
Can you really say you are much better than him?

Because quite frankly and I dont want to offend you, just make you realise, in my eyes you are not the slightest bit better than him if you can post stuff like this to someone who tries to redeem himself and to help the community now.

Believe me, I truly think you may be a saint sometimes. Maybe I cannot react like you to a troll because I'm not so secure of myself, and thus I cannot just "feel superior"... But well, that's personal.

And you are right in reminding me that not everyone is fluent in English. I understand that. But it would still be wise to try and construct a phrase like this: "I (personally) think that XXX because YYY and ZZZ" instead of "YYY. XXX. ZZZ.".
That's why I think you are a saint, for trying to see the good in everyone. I am more intolerant about this. I think there is a tangible difference between a phrase that is not much elaborated because the writer is not a native, and a phrase that is not elaborated because the writer wanted it such. This latter case is one that I personally do not approve of, and since I am not a saint like you, I prefer to ignore those posts, because I would not be able to be as kind as you are.

So yeah, if you are an angel, I shall be the devil!:devil:

you dont have to talk about personal matters if you feel uncomfortable ^^
and believe me, I fabricated a lot of bullsh*t in my life, I am no saint xD

yes, of course it would be better, but instead of getting ****ed off at bad english, how about you confront people with an open mind and try to help them improve their english? just asking ^^

That is fine by me, devils are just fallen angels anyways you may ascend again one day xD

 

[Loopy]

Let's face it. The internet is a place where people pretend to be something they're not because they're anonymous. Not every troll will be stopped.

Besides, there are not just trolls doing this pretending to be something they're not. Like people who make up false stories about their life.

Then there are people who think they have some sort of power on the internet. People who think they can boss others around, or think they can manipulate others; some by force and harsh words, or by insidiously by pretending to be nice to get their way.

I find the nicest people are at times the ones with the worst motives and the most self serving. That applies in real life too.

so what? what are they gonna do? keep provoking me? they can try but they will end up getting reported. change their minds? we migh become friends, yay or simply ignore me? fine by me.

Who knows? But some trolls are not so easily stopped by nice words or reportings. Ignoring is usually the best option.

so? dont you realize that Lulz now actually seems to have realised that what he was doing was wrong?
I see this post as him trying to redeem himself a bit now.
Are you really so resentful that you cant even give someone a second chance? are you that unforgiving?
If members don't get on, they don't get on. Nothing you can do about it. There's a history to this forum and that's just how it is.
And what do you and Nightrunner think you can accomplish with posts like these? (I really am interested in this btw)

Ask him that via PM. Doing it here only causes trouble.

It seems like I managed to make Lulzy at least realise some of his mistake with only three posts.

Oh....I don't know about that:troll: Randomlulz is randomlulz. Not changing for anything or anyone. You'll see if you stick around long enough. ^_^

Do you understand where I am coming from? Can you see the difference between our attitudes?
Can you really say you are much better than him?
Can you say you are better? Can anyone say they are better?
Because quite frankly and I dont want to offend you, just make you realise, in my eyes you are not the slightest bit better than him if you can post stuff like this to someone who tries to redeem himself and to help the community now.

By saing 'I don't want to offend you' and then following up with 'in my eyes you are not the slightes bit better than him' is insulting both Chancey and Randomlulz. You're saying Randomlulz is no good for what he does, and that Chancey is the same.

 

[IncarnatedDemon]

If you loook into theabyss tomuch the abyss will look back at u

 

[Loopy]

If you loook into theabyss tomuch the abyss will look back at u

Pretty much. And this part: 'He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.'

Like a sense of 'if you fight evil, make sure you do not become evil youself'. That's what I get from that quote.

 

[Chancey289]

so? dont you realize that Lulz now actually seems to have realised that what he was doing was wrong?
I see this post as him trying to redeem himself a bit now.
Are you really so resentful that you cant even give someone a second chance? are you that unforgiving?

And what do you and Nightrunner think you can accomplish with posts like these? (I really am interested in this btw)

It seems like I managed to make Lulzy at least realise some of his mistake with only three posts.
In comparison you and everyone else seem to be so stressed out because you constantly seem to be annoyed by each other that you couldnt reach a solution or a peaceful coexistence over a much longer period of time.

Do you understand where I am coming from? Can you see the difference between our attitudes?
Can you really say you are much better than him?

Because quite frankly and I dont want to offend you, just make you realise, in my eyes you are not the slightest bit better than him if you can post stuff like this to someone who tries to redeem himself and to help the community now.

But I never said anything like that. I was just elaborating, like you asked.

Quite frankly, I don't really care. I don't find MrRandomLulz to even be a funny troll and anything he post I usually don't even pay any mind to because it doesn't really matter to me. It's the internet and I usually take many things on it with a grain of salt. I don't have an issue with anyone.

Don't try to throw around rash assumptions and accuse me of doing this and that.

 

[SoLoGaMeR]

Let's face it. The internet is a place where people pretend to be something they're not because they're anonymous. Not every troll will be stopped.

Besides, there are not just trolls doing this pretending to be something they're not. Like people who make up false stories about their life.

Then there are people who think they have some sort of power on the internet. People who think they can boss others around, or think they can manipulate others; some by force and harsh words, or by insidiously by pretending to be nice to get their way.

I find the nicest people are at times the ones with the worst motives and the most self serving. That applies in real life too.

Who knows? But some trolls are not so easily stopped by nice words or reportings. Ignoring is usually the best option.

If members don't get on, they don't get on. Nothing you can do about it. There's a history to this forum and that's just how it is.

Ask him that via PM. Doing it here only causes trouble.


Oh....I don't know about that:troll: Randomlulz is randomlulz. Not changing for anything or anyone. You'll see if you stick around long enough. ^_^


By saing 'I don't want to offend you' and then following up with 'in my eyes you are not the slightes bit better than him' is insulting both Nightrunner and Randomlulz. You're saying Randomlulz is no good for what he does, and that Nightrunner is the same.

of course some trolls cant be stopped, but I am asking you: does it make a difference?
of course warnings or bans dont necessarily have to stop them from trolling, at least they will acquire some peace even if it is just for a short while.

so does it change anything if someone lies about his background on the Internet? does it change the fact that they are trolling or not trolling? no.

hahaha, by insidiously pretending to be nice, are you referring to me? I am not bossing anyone around.
I am generally kind and I really care for people. Even for nightrunner, chancey and lulzy. do you think I would bother with them otherwise? I believe it would be better for everyone if they realised that what they do is wrong, thus I act accordingly and I try my best to influence them in this way. However I dont hold a gun to their heads forcing them to anything, do I?
(No one can boss anyone around on the internet unless you are a mod xD that is just a delusion.)
So, yes, I can influence people. You can influence people everywhere and you are always influenced by people around you. that is not something bad as long as you dont use this for something bad.
I try to use my influence on people to improve or changes things in a way I think are better.
I already told you I am no saint. I just do what I believe is right. If you need to convince me to change my ways, you need to convince me that what I believe to be right is wrong. I am always open for this kind of discussions.

I agree with you, but you dont realise I am self serving, too? Isnt it logical to think that if I can influence everyone to be respectful to each other, it will also increase the enjoyment I feel spending time on this forum?

Sometimes ignoring wont stop them either. That is why there is a ban functionality.
It seems you are misunderstanding me. I am not trying to stop every troll on the planet.
What I want people to understand is that trolling is pathetic, so that they decide by themselves that it is not something worth doing.

I am not sure what you are talking about? Lulzy tried to warn people of using this certain type of argumentation that only leads to flame wars, which is something he experienced himself, probably by messing up himself, too.
At least he now comes here, having learnt something from it, trying to share his experience.
this thread is not only about a former mod having left the forum.

No, I want people to read it and to think about this. If I wanted to talk about this in private I would have done this since the beginning. As long as the other party does not suggest continuing this in pms, I dont plan to do that in this case.

That might be, but if you read his last post in the IP Recognition thread you will see that he actually realised that at least in this case he did something wrong. It might make him rethink some stuff or not, but by creating this thread he at least did the first few steps in the right directions. Posts like that of Nightrunner or Chancey will only serve to make him do a 180° again.

dont take my words out of context please. I said I wanted them to realise this. You cant always babysit people.
Sometimes you need to be harsh for them to realise something. And no, I am not saying they are good for nothings.
I am saying the way they behave or behaved serves no purpose but causing trouble.
And I will look down on behavior such as this because it is behavior that should be looked down upon.
If they dont want to be looked down on, then they better pull themself together and leave this kind of behavior behind ^^

do you understand me better now?