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Spotted an oddity in the game (share your oddities thread)

I don't necessarily mind reinterpretting classical mythological entities or giving them slight deviations. Hell, before Bram Stoker the Vampyr was a corpse that digs itself out of the ground every night, falls on travellers for their blood then buries itself in the Earth again. It's Stoker who reinvented the idea to make them into debonair aristocrats, hypnotists and serial sex pests. The difference is that DmC's bizarre contradictory interpretation of such entities as Nephilim, Barbas and Drekavac (To name a few) are so off the mark that it's pretty clear they just chose their names because they thought they'd sound cool.

Besides, we all know what reinterpretation of the vampire myth led us to...
 
I don't necessarily mind reinterpretting classical mythological entities or giving them slight deviations. Hell, before Bram Stoker the Vampyr was a corpse that digs itself out of the ground every night, falls on travellers for their blood then buries itself in the Earth again. It's Stoker who reinvented the idea to make them into debonair aristocrats, hypnotists and serial sex pests. The difference is that DmC's bizarre contradictory interpretation of such entities as Nephilim, Barbas and Drekavac (To name a few) are so off the mark that it's pretty clear they just chose their names because they thought they'd sound cool.

Besides, we all know what reinterpretation of the vampire myth led us to...
There's on before Stoker called Carmilla that reinvented the vampire image. But it was about a seductive female vampire and predates Stoker by 25 years. But Stoker is the one credited for reimagining the vampire and inspiring most of what came after.

As for Barbas, wasn't he supposed to be a demon who tells the truth and reveals secrets. It's contrary to what Bob Barbas does. Just lies and keeps secrets from the humans.

Besides, demons, vampires and the like are all invented by humans anyway from a time when they didn't know any better. I don't see why shouldn't they be reinvented every now and again.
 
There's on before Stoker called Carmilla that reinvented the vampire image. But it was about a seductive female vampire and predates Stoker by 25 years. But Stoker is the one credited for reimagining the vampire and inspiring most of what came after.

Ah, sorry, I knew my facts would be off a little, but the point remains. I respect reinvention now and then, but it needs to do the original spirit of the concept justice or otherwise you're just using the name for brand recognition.

As for Barbas, wasn't he supposed to be a demon who tells the truth and reveals secrets. It's contrary to what Bob Barbas does. Just lies and keeps secrets from the humans.

So, the opposite of what Classical Barbas did then. That's like if a zombie gave you spare brains.

The thing that gets me is that Barbas is part of the Key Of Solomon, an awesome mythological concept full of monsters, both hostile and friendly that can be summoned at will. It remains largely untapped creatively and would make an amazing concept for a game like Devil May Cry, but they just pinched the name for use as their pathetic Bill O'Reilly parody which doesn't actually parody Bill O'Reilly.

Besides, demons, vampires and the like are all invented by humans anyway from a time when they didn't know any better. I don't see why shouldn't they be reinvented every now and again.

Edward-376194_429619737081258_1836140990_n.jpg


You made me do that.
 
I know. That stupid cow apparently has had time travelling powers since the beginning of the series, yet the only use she comes up with for it is sending Death back in time to meet Samael. As opposed to, you know, using the omniscience time travel provides to win the war with Heaven outright. She should take some tips from this guy.

If you read up on your biblical canon, Nephilim actually grow to be three times the size of men with thick muscular frames, tend to have only one eye and are always inbred, slow witted barbarians. So at least Darksiders has two out of three over DmC, which gets it completely wrong in every way possible.

I've been thinking of doing a little article exploring the nomenclature across the Devil May Cry series and posting it up in General, because it's almost a running joke in the games that the names don't make a huge amount of sense, but DmC really takes the cake.
Umm, according to what Samael said in Darksiders 1 (as far as I remember, might have been The Jo - I mean The Watcher), chronomancers are pretty much extinct. And those who can manipulate time have very limited options. So, while Lilith, like Samael, could have time manipulating powers and then pass it on, it's very limited. Death had to use time portals and War had to use chronospheres. I don't know if Lilith and Samael had to do something like that, but in combat with Samael, he shows no time controlling abilites like what Corvo Attano, the Fable protagonist, and other time controlling beings who used their time controlling abilities without external sources. And I think it's implied that the race of Old Ones who could control time had an immense control over it and if we know anything about manipulating time is that it's dangerous; to others and themselves. Time being compared to fabric isn't just some silly metaphor. That race was probably quickly killed off immediately by whomever - The Charred Council perhaps?

And the horseman race are still referred to as the Old Ones' collectively. Cambions only refer to incubus/succubus and human offspring. Nephilim traditionally refer to male angel and female human offspring. Dhampir are vampire and human offspring. And halflings are generally, midget buggers. So technically there isn't a general term for demon and human offspring, or a general term for angel and human offspring. While demon and angel offspring don't have an official term. The closest I could find for an angel and demon offspring would be Erebus Elysium and that was from an unreliable source.

On topic: Phineas and his head. Without the artificial eye, about half of his brain is missing. And while we don't know how demons and angels work biologically, it's kind of strange to think he could function well like that. Yes, I know that there are people in this world who live without half a brain; I mean this literally not figuratively. The conflict would be whether or not angels, demons, or certain beings are physical beings or spiritual. If Phineas is a physical being, that his biology is much more different than anything we've encountered. If Phineas is a spiritual being, then whatever, he doesn't need a brain.
 
Umm, according to what Samael said in Darksiders 1 (as far as I remember, might have been The Jo - I mean The Watcher), chronomancers are pretty much extinct. And those who can manipulate time have very limited options. So, while Lilith, like Samael, could have time manipulating powers and then pass it on, it's very limited. Death had to use time portals and War had to use chronospheres. I don't know if Lilith and Samael had to do something like that, but in combat with Samael, he shows no time controlling abilites like what Corvo Attano, the Fable protagonist, and other time controlling beings who used their time controlling abilities without external sources. And I think it's implied that the race of Old Ones who could control time had an immense control over it and if we know anything about manipulating time is that it's dangerous; to others and themselves. Time being compared to fabric isn't just some silly metaphor. That race was probably quickly killed off immediately by whomever - The Charred Council perhaps?

Even with a lengthy handwave, the way that DS2 handles time travel is still really flawed. Let's take for granted that Lillith is only capable of travelling back within the confines of the castle; she could easily warn Samael of Abaddon's betrayal and orchestrate things so that War never gets summoned, or ensure that when he is summoned that his mission is impossible to complete. All it would take is throwing a mission critical tool like The Glaive into a lava pit and his whole mission is buggered. I know villians in any setting could do that (Ganondorf could destroy every Hookshot in existance to preven Link from ever defeating him), but Lillith has the benefit of hindsight with time travel, so she could very easily tip the scales in her favour. Of course Lillith is an incredibly vague character whose exact motives aren't clear, so perhaps everything is elapsing as she designs it, but not knowing a villian's intentions can be hugely exasperating.

At least with Moebius by the end of Blood Omen 1 we knew he was a genocidal prick obsessed with wiping out the vampire species, and subsequent games explored those motives. With Lillith we have...nothing.

And the horseman race are still referred to as the Old Ones' collectively. Cambions only refer to incubus/succubus and human offspring. Nephilim traditionally refer to male angel and female human offspring. Dhampir are vampire and human offspring. And halflings are generally, midget buggers. So technically there isn't a general term for demon and human offspring, or a general term for angel and human offspring. While demon and angel offspring don't have an official term. The closest I could find for an angel and demon offspring would be Erebus Elysium and that was from an unreliable source.

The thing is, as it's basically an unwritten element of mythology, Antonaides could have invented a whole new term for the children of demons and angels. There's nothing wrong with trying to add your own creative input on to an existing concept, but instead he just slapped on a tangentially related term and decided that it would do the trick, because who really cares about mythology anymore?

At least Garth Ennis had his depiction of an angel and demon child have a unique quality to it instead of another boring humanoid species. In Preacher the child is called Genesis, and it's an amorphous consciousness with power that rivals The Almighty himself.

86634-121325-genesis_super.jpg


On topic: Phineas and his head. Without the artificial eye, about half of his brain is missing. And while we don't know how demons and angels work biologically, it's kind of strange to think he could function well like that. Yes, I know that there are people in this world who live without half a brain; I mean this literally not figuratively. The conflict would be whether or not angels, demons, or certain beings are physical beings or spiritual. If Phineas is a physical being, that his biology is much more different than anything we've encountered. If Phineas is a spiritual being, then whatever, he doesn't need a brain.

I actually liked that element of Phineas's design. It could be that without his eye component he's only capable of left-hemispherical thinking.
 
Even with a lengthy handwave, the way that DS2 handles time travel is still really flawed. Let's take for granted that Lillith is only capable of travelling back within the confines of the castle; she could easily warn Samael of Abaddon's betrayal and orchestrate things so that War never gets summoned, or ensure that when he is summoned that his mission is impossible to complete. All it would take is throwing a mission critical tool like The Glaive into a lava pit and his whole mission is buggered. I know villians in any setting could do that (Ganondorf could destroy every Hookshot in existance to preven Link from ever defeating him), but Lillith has the benefit of hindsight with time travel, so she could very easily tip the scales in her favour. Of course Lillith is an incredibly vague character whose exact motives aren't clear, so perhaps everything is elapsing as she designs it, but not knowing a villian's intentions can be hugely exasperating.

At least with Moebius by the end of Blood Omen 1 we knew he was a genocidal prick obsessed with wiping out the vampire species, and subsequent games explored those motives. With Lillith we have...nothing.
The first part reminds me of Bowser . . . Yeah, great fortress design, Bowser. A removable axe that would lead to your downfall and slowly rotating flame lines. Oooo, scary. Oh, and your tactics suck donkey hooves. Do you know how many potential Mario-killers you lose on a daily basis by having them walk off ledges, not follow him when he's looking at them, or only patrolling and never pursuing? A lot. And those Goombas sure are dangerous aren't they? They're such quick little buggers without any weapons.

Considering it's basically a story of good versus evil with DmC and almost every story to date. It's necessary to have some way for the protagonist to win even if it means that villains are terribly stupid. I want a game that you play as a hopeless protagonist or multiple ones that through their efforts, ultimately fail and maybe even provide further progress to the villain. I want a game where the villain wins and you're not playing as him.

And characters with or without motives is another it works or it doesn't work situation to me. With guys like Clockwerk, Ganon/Ganondorf, Mundus, and Bowser, knowing what they want just makes you want to stop them. You know that they're the bad guys and you're the good guy. Other times, with their motives being revealed, such as Dracula from Castlevania, Wind Waker's Ganon, Kessler from inFamous, it makes them much more interesting than the typical bad guy; they're more like tragic villains or maybe even heroes. But it can make it predictable, though.

Does Joker have a motive? Anyway, characters without motives can work extremely well. With Joker, he's a complete nut-job. He torments Batman and others almost just for the hell of it. And you never really find out why; he gives to hints, multiple back stories because if he could have one, he'd like it to be like multiple choice. Other times with vague motives or no motives, it just ends up as why? Why would you waste your time for what seems like nothing? And you either dig for more information or just give up because it's such a waste of time.

The thing is, as it's basically an unwritten element of mythology, Antonaides could have invented a whole new term for the children of demons and angels. There's nothing wrong with trying to add your own creative input on to an existing concept, but instead he just slapped on a tangentially related term and decided that it would do the trick, because who really cares about mythology anymore?
Square Enix did that with the Final Fantasy XIII trilogy, Final Fantasy Type-0, the long awaited Final Fantasy Versus XIII, Final Fantasy X with fayths? (I don't remember), and plenty of other games. Coming from a person who enjoyed FFXIII, the concept of l'Cie rings like a bell to me. But for someone who never played FFXIII or knows nothing about it, I feel like it just doesn't click with them compared to hearing vampires, werewolves, sirens, dragons, and other familiar, well-established beings. At the same time though, Square Enix is faithful in their interpretations of mythological beings such as Ifrit, Shiva, Odin, Bahamut, etc.

Some people can pull it off and some can't. Insomniac Games, George Lucas and Star Wars, Doctor Who, and Star Trek introduced plenty of different species that are sometimes based on existing ones while some are completely different and unheard of before. Sucker Punch used conduits instead of meta-humans or mutants; it's essentially the same thing, but in inFamous' universe it fits with how science and powers were used. Conduits channel something, in inFamous' case, powers such as electricity, ice, and fire. Meta-humans and mutants have the ability to do the same thing. They are just superhuman beings.

I feel like Vigil Games and Ninja Theory were at a dead end with what to call their creations. Both loosely based their creations on mythology; the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse and angels and demons. Vigil Games could have just called the race: horsemen, but that sounds generic and lazy in my opinion. As the story continued and they were revealed to be made from the ashes of angels and demons, what could you call them? Dustmen? Ashmen? People of the Ash? Sort of the same with Ninja Theory. Hybrid? Half-blood? Monster? Abominations? Those were probably used before and are generic. They could have made up a random name like l'Cie. But they would need a name not so complex like l'Cie which is based on Latin, I believe. And they need a name not so generic like "horsemen".

And I feel that "Nephilim" and probably a ton of other names of mythological beings have been tossed around so much that they either don't mean what they did or that nobody remembers or cares about what they meant. For an example, banshees and sirens are not the same thing. Yes, they're both ghosts, but one screams and the other sings. One is based on Irish mythology and the other is based on Greek mythology. Hell, with dragons, there are sub groups; wyrms, wyverns, drakes, Asian, European, etc. And I bet that there has been a drake when it should have been a dragon or a wyvern when it should have been a wyrm.

At least Garth Ennis had his depiction of an angel and demon child have a unique quality to it instead of another boring humanoid species. In Preacher the child is called Genesis, and it's an amorphous consciousness with power that rivals The Almighty himself.
Species of whatever are fine in my opinion. But when some random species looks really human when it's not and could have been something interesting feels kind of like a cop out. Quarians anyone? Ratchet & Clank have many humanoid species but they're so funky.

And I think it might have to do with humans relating to more familiar things such as humanoid species. I mean, how would you have felt if DmC had Dante and Vergil look like snakes with dove wings and bull horns?

I actually liked that element of Phineas's design. It could be that without his eye component he's only capable of left-hemispherical thinking.
I liked Phineas as a character and his appearance as well; he's not the stereotypical demon we'd see. But some things for me seem just off, maybe's it Unreal Engine 3 that makes his clothes and other textures seem weird. Without the eye, I think Phineas is blind in his left eye. When you meet him, he's swinging wildly at the harpies and then Dante who was less than about a foot away from him. Without the eye, Phineas gives off that dependence vibe, where he needs something to function normally.
 
I don't think I get the point of all this arguing over definitions. A) That's how Nephilim are defined in DmC's universe, and B) How do you kill a vampire? Any damn way you want, because they are made up anyway.
 
I don't think I get the point of all this arguing over definitions. A) That's how Nephilim are defined in DmC's universe, and B) How do you kill a vampire? Any damn way you want, because they are made up anyway.

The thing is, as it's basically an unwritten element of mythology, Antonaides could have invented a whole new term for the children of demons and angels. There's nothing wrong with trying to add your own creative input on to an existing concept, but instead he just slapped on a tangentially related term and decided that it would do the trick, because who really cares about mythology anymore?

It also begs the question of what the child of a human and an angel would be called in DmC. I doubt Antonaides put that much thought into it though.
 
The thing is, as it's basically an unwritten element of mythology,

Again, so are vampires. I don't see a reason to adhere to "established" mythology, when it's constantly being rewritten by everyone to put a new twist on a subject. "That was a story, this is how x REALLY is."

Antonaides could have invented a whole new term for the children of demons and angels. There's nothing wrong with trying to add your own creative input on to an existing concept, but instead he just slapped on a tangentially related term and decided that it would do the trick, because who really cares about mythology anymore?

Sometimes I feel that all the good names are taken. +5 if Tameem could've come up with a good sounding name that doesn't sound like it was pulled out of a random word generator, but I don't see the big deal that he didn't.

It also begs the question of what the child of a human and an angel would be called in DmC. I doubt Antonaides put that much thought into it though.

Potential concepts that could be explored in later games (which may never be made) or a DmC novel or comic.
 
Again, so are vampires. I don't see a reason to adhere to "established" mythology, when it's constantly being rewritten by everyone to put a new twist on a subject. "That was a story, this is how x REALLY is."

I don't necessarily mind reinterpretting classical mythological entities or giving them slight deviations. Hell, before Bram Stoker the Vampyr was a corpse that digs itself out of the ground every night, falls on travellers for their blood then buries itself in the Earth again. It's Stoker who reinvented the idea to make them into debonair aristocrats, hypnotists and serial sex pests. The difference is that DmC's bizarre contradictory interpretation of such entities as Nephilim, Barbas and Drekavac (To name a few) are so off the mark that it's pretty clear they just chose their names because they thought they'd sound cool.

Besides, we all know what reinterpretation of the vampire myth led us to...

Sometimes I feel that all the good names are taken. +5 if Tameem could've come up with a good sounding name that doesn't sound like it was pulled out of a random word generator, but I don't see the big deal that he didn't.

That's a cop out. Creative individuals can't just throw up their hands and declare that "All the good ideas are gone" because if that's the case they might as well pack up their tablets and go home. Creativity is born of deviation from existing concepts, the intermingling of tested premises to find new permutations on existing ideas. Anybody who is paid good money to provide a service does that task, damn it.

Actual creative people do their jobs. Read some Gaimen.
 
I don't necessarily mind reinterpretting classical mythological entities or giving them slight deviations. Hell, before Bram Stoker the Vampyr was a corpse that digs itself out of the ground every night, falls on travellers for their blood then buries itself in the Earth again. It's Stoker who reinvented the idea to make them into debonair aristocrats, hypnotists and serial sex pests.
Sounds like vampires have a clear case of getting ****tier over the years. The first interpretation you brought up sounds a lot better than Stoker's version.

The difference is that DmC's bizarre contradictory interpretation of such entities as Nephilim, Barbas and Drekavac (To name a few) are so off the mark that it's pretty clear they just chose their names because they thought they'd sound cool.

I think Nephilim and Succubus works in this case for their universe, but I can see the point with the other named enemies. Still, I'll kill vampires whatever the damn way I want. **** adherence to mythology.

Besides, we all know what reinterpretation of the vampire myth led us to...

You can bring up Twilight, but I'd bring up every infamous dumbass vampire weakness ever thought up. And I don't really have anything against concept of vampires in twilight in anycase other than the cheesy sparkle crap, but I can understand the want to get away from one of the WORST AND MOST ABUNDANT WEAKNESSES, EVAR.

That's a cop out. Creative individuals can't just throw up their hands and declare that "All the good ideas are gone" because if that's the case they might as well pack up their tablets and go home. Creativity is born of deviation from existing concepts, the intermingling of tested premises to find new permutations on existing ideas. Anybody who is paid good money to provide a service does that task, damn it.

So if they're not creative in this minor area, slam the **** out of them. Sometimes you have to move on from an aspect or be bogged down with it and get nowhere on your overall creation. Besides again, alternate established universe.

Actual creative people do their jobs. Read some Gaimen.

No.:mad:
 
I've found some funny moments in the game...

1) Lol when a Dreamrunner killed himself in mission 16 ( laser part). Kamikase should be his name...

2) I had to turn off my PS3, after playing Mission 11 ( The Order). You have to fight against Drekavac, until you trigger a cutscene and he gets away. Funny thing is, the cutscene happened but the entire screen turned into a rotating sky, with clouds. The battle music was still playing, but nothing happened. I tried to restart the mission, nothing. Eventually, I had to reset my console. It was hilarious when I got to see the mission screen by saying Mision 11 was in progress, lol.

3) Vergil not attacking you...I got this one during my first time against him, how lucky i am, lol. However, he attacks back, if you attack him.

4) Vergil stopped using his doppelganger during the last fight. It means I couldn't kill him. He wouldn't stop walking like a sick guy, lol. Restart is the best thing to do.
 
I came across more glitches in the first 24 hours of playing this game that I've come across in all my time spent playing dmc4 (all difficulties, full dmd no damage completion).

The mundus spawn boss fight is riddled with it
 
Finally had a Dreamrunner suicide today! Yay! :lol: It just jumped out of the portal to its death.
 
I beat the furnace on SoS, went to restart mission to compare my scores to the other stages and exicted to the main menu only to find the damn thing didn't give me the save and said it was no a completed stage, so I had to go back and do it again to unlock the next stage.

Bottom line, it's safer to proceed to then next stage and then return to the main menu than to go to the return to start of stage and go from there since it'll negate your last attempt.
 
Sounds like vampires have a clear case of getting ****tier over the years. The first interpretation you brought up sounds a lot better than Stoker's version.


If you like that interpretation you should check out The Witcher in both book and videogame form, as in that universe the original Vampyr are the most abundant form they appear in.

The aristocrat vampire was a natural permutation on the existing vampire myth. It took the way that eastern europeans regarded their aristocracy as parasitic monsters who openly preyed sexually upon their children and applied it to the image of the vampyr as a repulsive plasma gobbling ghoul to make a new definition. The aristocrat vampire is not a friendly door mouse which gives you free blood.

I think Nephilim and Succubus works in this case for their universe, but I can see the point with the other named enemies. Still, I'll kill vampires whatever the damn way I want. **** adherence to mythology.


Nephilim means one thing: The children of angels and men. It's not like using the word "monster" to refer to a demon or a diabolical human. In DmC the use of Nephilim is like calling a car a wheel barrow.

It's the same with the Succubus (And seriously, she should have a name of her own. The equivalent of calling her "Succubus" be like if my name was "Man"). Succubi subsist on the souls of men, which they attain by seducing them, and breed cambions into the world by using their sperm. They are not the goddamned Slurm Queen.

You can bring up Twilight, but I'd bring up every infamous dumbass vampire weakness ever thought up. And I don't really have anything against concept of vampires in twilight in anycase other than the cheesy sparkle crap, but I can understand the want to get away from one of the WORST AND MOST ABUNDANT WEAKNESSES, EVAR.


Different IPs deal with vampire weaknesses differently, but you can't take away vampiric vulnerability to sunlight entirely; it's one of their defining traits. It's what makes them abhorrent and sympathetic at the same time; the notion that they fear and hate the very thing that gives all life on Earth, and yet they cannot enjoy the sunrise and all the splendor of daylight. It's asinine to remove that weakness altogether.

Watch Daybreakers. It's not only a great vampire film, but it deals with sunlight vulnerability very interestingly.

So if they're not creative in this minor area, slam the **** out of them. Sometimes you have to move on from an aspect or be bogged down with it and get nowhere on your overall creation. Besides again, alternate established universe.

Brother I critque everything about DmC on every level, because it is so incredibly abundant with things that I hate. I'm just talking about this one particular facet of the game at this particular moment because it happens to really irritate me along with every other frustrating flaw.

And it is a flaw. As I've demonstrated it's a time honoured practice to alter and homage existing mythology for new intellectual properties. It isn't practice to completely invert the definition of established nomenclature and have them mean the exact opposite. DmC does not take place in Bizzaro world.

Creative writing isn't VIetnam, there are rules!

Thisisntvietnam_zps69e08af0.gif



You really should, he's pretty damned good. I can recommend American Gods as a good starter.

200px-American_gods.jpg
 
I will say this though: All of this, vampires, witches, demons and Nephilim....they're all human inventions from a time when humans didn't know any better. Slightest thing went wrong- blame a demon.:lol:
All of these creatures have been in a consant state of change and evolution and they will continue to change depending on the zeitgeist and the country. Things aren't born in a vacume and are usually reactive.
Twilight may be terrible (in my opinion) but it is a product of this age. Besides, Meyer's the one sitting on 3 movie deals and a load of cash from her books. Are any of us? No.:troll:
 
Hey, the load of cash I'm sleeping on is just as good as one built on a shamelessly horrid interpretation of a beloved mythical creature of the night. ;)

I'd have to agree that much of what we consider these classes of monster to be rely on peoples' initial flawed interpretations of the source material. I mean, thousands of years ago it was much more enjoyable to build weird stuff into an idea than 'stay true to its roots'. I don't think we should let ideas of fidelity to old made-up bullshit ruin what we can do without our own crazy inventions.

Still, Stephanie's books/films are a good example of the other side of the coin.
 
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