Should Dante, Trish and Lady Have Been Left Out of DMC4 Entirely?

[BlackAngel]

I'd personall try to veer away from the whole "Virgil falling love" with a human woman. I like the idea better that Virgil simply laid with a human woman in a vague attempt to understand and emulate his father Sparda. In his desparate attempt to comprehend why his father would take interest in a being so beneath him he completely misses the point of why what Sparda and Eva shared was so special. Virgil believing that his efforts were a fruitless attempt, feelings he's wasted his time leaves. Unknowingly Virgil concieves Nero who later finds out that he's nowhere near as strong as he was his age consider him a weakling.

If he felt that way about her, then why did he decide to lay up with a woman and bear a child? It's obvious that he cared for her, and blames himself for not being strong to save her. Like how Vergil lost his mother when he was young that emotionally scarred him. And he even said to Dante, "Might controls everything. And without strength you cannot protect anything." That meant that he cared about someone he loved, but he failed to protect her. So it drove him to the path of the dark side and forsake his humanity. Because, he sees his human side as weak, inferior, and pathetic.

So it would make sense that losing a person he loved took him to a dark path. (Similar to Anakin Skywalker turned to the dark side and became Darth Vader. Where he lost Padame out of his own anger that caused complications of giving birth to twins. And he hated himself so much that if anyone mentioned the name Skywalker, will be brutally murdered by Vader.)

 

[DarkSlayerVergil]

If he felt that way about her, then why did he decide to lay up with a woman and bear a child? It's obvious that he cared for her and blames himself for not being strong to save her, like how Vergil lost his mother when he was young. Especially what he said to Dante, "Might controls everything. And without strength you cannot protect anything." That meant that he cared about someone he loved, but he failed to protect her. So it drove him to the path of the dark side and forsake his humanity. Because, he sees his human side as weak, inferior, and pathetic.

So it would make sense that losing a person he loved took him to a dark path. (Similar to Anakin Skywalker turned to the dark side and became Darth Vader. Where he lost Padame out of his own anger that caused complications of giving birth to twins. And he hated himself so much that if anyone mentioned the name Skywalker, will be brutally murdered by Vader.)

If you're gonna use that quote than at least use it in it's entirety: "Foolishness, Dante. Foolishness. Might controls everything - and without strength, you cannot protect anything; let alone yourself."

The fact that Vergil saids "let alone yourself" makes me believes that he's securing power for the sole purpose of not needing anyone.

You're also missing my point in Virgil laying up with a woman. As you do know you can slept with someone with no strings attached. Also you can't compare Anakin falls to Virgils, especially since Anakin was mostly viewed as a war-hero through out the clone war until fall that was due to his compounding fear of losing people he cared about. Compared to Virgil who as far as we know never had any of that and was mostly shown as being incredibly selfish. Besides I'm pretty sure Virgil had no idea Nero was even a thing until 5.

 

[Foxtrot94]

"Might controls everything. And without strength you cannot protect anything."

Am I seriously the only one in the entire fandom who takes that quote at face value in the context in which it's being said?

To me he's clearly just mocking Dante for not being strong enough to defend himself from him, and hold on to his half of the amulet. Adding insult to injury (quite literally in this case). No hidden meaning, no enigmatic nod to the past.

If anything, DMC3 makes it come across that Vergil's motivation for seeking power has nothing to do with his mother, and all to do with the fact that he's absolutely obsessed by his father and his legendary status, and he desperately wants to be a legend himself just like his dad (even Dante spells it out in Mission 20), thus he seeks the power of Sparda which he sees rightfully his by right of birth. To me it's always been pretty straightforward to understand and I've always cringed at this idea of him wanting power cause he wasn't strong enough to protect his mother that's so popular with fans, always was surprised that THAT is what people read in that quote. Apparently it's now canon due to Visions of V or whatever canon novel tied to DMC5 and I'm not too happy about it. I would have preferred they had stuck with his DMC3 motivation, cause that creates a less on the nose tragedy to the character, where he tries to emulate his father not realizing he's actually just forsaking everything he stood for cause he's too focused on the more superficial part of the legendary knight's legend: his raw power, which blinded Vergil to the actual values Sparda was about and ultimately brought him to his (apparent) demise.

For this reason, I like @DarkSlayerVergil 's idea better, fits Vergil's character more than actually, genuinely falling in love with someone.

 

[BlackAngel]

Am I seriously the only one in the entire fandom who takes that quote at face value in the context in which it's being said?

To me he's clearly just mocking Dante for not being strong enough to defend himself from him, and hold on to his half of the amulet. Adding insult to injury (quite literally in this case). No hidden meaning, no enigmatic nod to the past.

If anything, DMC3 makes it come across that Vergil's motivation for seeking power has nothing to do with his mother, and all to do with the fact that he's absolutely obsessed by his father and his legendary status, and he desperately wants to be a legend himself just like his dad (even Dante spells it out in Mission 20), thus he seeks the power of Sparda which he sees rightfully his by right of birth. To me it's always been pretty straightforward to understand and I've always cringed at this idea of him wanting power cause he wasn't strong enough to protect his mother that's so popular with fans, always was surprised that THAT is what people read in that quote. Apparently it's now canon due to Visions of V or whatever canon novel tied to DMC5 and I'm not too happy about it. I would have preferred they had stuck with his DMC3 motivation, cause that creates a less on the nose tragedy to the character, where he tries to emulate his father not realizing he's actually just forsaking everything he stood for cause he's too focused on the more superficial part of the legendary knight's legend: his raw power, which blinded Vergil to the actual values Sparda was about and ultimately brought him to his (apparent) demise.

For this reason, I like @DarkSlayerVergil 's idea better, fits Vergil's character more than actually, genuinely falling in love with someone.

If you're gonna use that quote than at least use it in it's entirety: "Foolishness, Dante. Foolishness. Might controls everything - and without strength, you cannot protect anything; let alone yourself."

The fact that Vergil saids "let alone yourself" makes me believes that he's securing power for the sole purpose of not needing anyone.

You're also missing my point in Virgil laying up with a woman. As you do know you can slept with someone with no strings attached. Also you can't compare Anakin falls to Virgils, especially since Anakin was mostly viewed as a war-hero through out the clone war until fall that was due to his compounding fear of losing people he cared about. Compared to Virgil who as far as we know never had any of that and was mostly shown as being incredibly selfish. Besides I'm pretty sure Virgil had no idea Nero was even a thing until 5.

DMC5 was a poorly written story to begin with, anyways. Because we never get the chance to see Vergil to look within himself, and reflect how his actions got him to where he is. Does he questions his actions? Has he been blinded by power that it got him nowhere? Capcom has wasted a perfect opportunity to give Vergil a proper character development. Besides, Vergil never intend to mock Dante when he said strength is everything. Meaning that he hated himself, because he feels like he's weak because he could not protect anyone. ,(Hence, Nero's mother) And he thinks Dante should've gain power and seek strength, because of that.

That's why he chose to forsake his humanity to embrace his demonic nature, because of his misguided path to gain power. That's why he asked Dante why he didn't seek power, and why didn't he embrace his heritage from their father. Knowing full well that Dante refuse to embrace his heritage, after the demons took everything from him (mentioned in the manga). And probably resented his father for being a half demon. They could do so much better with the story, if they invested in storytelling. And how to execute a story.

 

[Foxtrot94]

Besides, Vergil never intend to mock Dante when he said strength is everything. Meaning that he hated himself, because he feels like he's weak because he could not protect anyone. And he thinks Dante should've gain power and seek strength, because of that.

Yeah, again, to me that's just reaching and the context of that scene doesn't justify that interpretation. It was just mockery towards Dante. Never once did the game gave any actual (keyword: actual) indication that that was his reason for seeking power. Instead, it was pretty clear that his reason was simply to be like his dad, what with always talking about his heritage, his father, and Dante straight up telling him "No matter how hard you try, you're never gonna be like father".

Not a single time was Eva actually a thing in anything Vergil ever said in that game. It was always about Sparda, not Eva. They may have retconned his motivation to "wanting more power cause he couldn't protect his mother" since then, but in DMC3 itself, that motivation was nowhere to be found. And they never should have made it canon, in my opinion.

 

[BlackAngel]

Yeah, again, to me that's just reaching and the context of that scene doesn't justify that interpretation. It was just mockery towards Dante. Never once did the game gave any actual (keyword: actual) indication that that was his reason for seeking power. Instead, it was pretty clear that his reason was simply to be like his dad, what with always talking about his heritage, his father, and Dante straight up telling him "No matter how hard you try, you're never gonna be like father".

Not a single time was Eva actually a thing in anything Vergil ever said in that game. It was always about Sparda, not Eva. They may have retconned his motivation to "wanting more power cause he couldn't protect his mother" since then, but in DMC3 itself, that motivation was nowhere to be found. And they never should have made it canon, in my opinion.

In the manga, it explained why Dante refused to embrace his heritage of his demonic nature, and Vergil is willing to burn the world to gain power.

And the character profiles explained their trauma of pain and loss and their psychologically unstable, because of the death of their mother.

Which pretty much confirms it as canon, that Vergil has forsaked his human heritage. Because of the death of his mother, and possibly has lost Nero's mother changed him. (which is pretty much likely)

Here's a link if you want a free copy of the manga to read it for yourself. https://originaldmc.github.io/DivinityStatue/Downloads.html

 

[Foxtrot94]

In the manga, it explained why Dante refused to embrace his heritage of his demonic nature, and Vergil is willing to burn the world to gain power.

And the character profiles explained their trauma of pain and loss and their psychologically unstable, because of the death of their mother.

Which pretty much confirms it as canon, that Vergil has forsaked his human heritage. Because of the death of his mother, and possibly has lost Nero's mother changed him. (which is pretty much likely)

Here's a link if you want a free copy of the manga to read it for yourself. https://originaldmc.github.io/DivinityStatue/Downloads.html

I never doubted or talked about the manga (whose canon status is murky anyway). I was talking about the game itself and its own scope. I always talk specifically about the games, cause every other piece of media outside the anime and the DMC5 novels has always been pretty up in the air in terms of canonicity.

 

[BlackAngel]

I never doubted or talked about the manga (whose canon status is murky anyway). I was talking about the game itself and its own scope. I always talk specifically about the games, cause every other piece of media outside the anime and the DMC5 novels has always been pretty up in the air in terms of canonicity.

But the anime and the manga was licensed by Capcom. So they're canon to the games.

 

[Foxtrot94]

But the anime and the manga was licensed by Capcom. So they're canon to the games.

If you say so. I've always heard from the fanbase that the only external media that are canon are the anime, and more recently the DMC5 novels. There seems to be pretty much consensus there in the fandom, though when it comes to sources I wouldn't know, I think I've seen people citing some on the internet over the years but I couldn't tell you where those threads are, in which forum etc.

All I go off of is the games. They are the source material, and reign supreme when it comes to canonicity.

 

[V's patron]

So I'd change my answer from to "No" to a "Maybe".

It could've worked but its still a long shot. Nero's the first new protagonist but also a weak character in his own right. So you'd have to beef him up with a more distinct character design, more gameplay mechanics and a more defined story.

I probably would've added Vergil for backup. He is the MVP of 3 so exploring what he does when he isn't fighting feels like a good hook. Him being Nero's father is optional but not neccessary. Him just being a mysterious 3rd party stumbling onto whatever the plot actually is would be enough for me.

The love story is the weakest part so I'd beef that up more or scrap it completely and save it for a sequel.

 

[Lain]

I don't think I actually gave a proper answer throughout this thread. I must correct this...

Ultimately I would go with "No" for a variety of factors. For better or for worse, people loved DMC3 and fans would have been anticipating Dante's return at least and it wouldn't have been a wise marketing decision to completely cut out Dante from 4's story even if you think you can write it better without him. That said, I definitely think you could have made it a Nero campaign only with Dante given the Vergil treatment after you complete the game - but that's just my preference really.

Lady and Trish I'm more so-so on as while it would be great to develop them more as characters, Nero and his crew need room to breath in the plot and it isn't vital for Lady/Trish to appear if they're only on screen for like 5 minutes.

 

[Morgan]

Think I've already said my piece on it, if not here, then in other threads, but here's reiterating: Yes. Hell yes they should have been left out.

When players were first introduced to Dante in what I hope is the first game and not the third one (come-latelys need not apply here), his debut was not loaded with a bevy of "recurring characters" or many characters at all. It was treated like a debut. Narration in the beginning to dump us some lore, the main character, a second character shows up, tells us about the antagonist. DMC1 was Dante's Game for good reason. He was the only guy on the cover. And I guess they did the same thing with the third game. Dante on the cover, some narration to dump some lore, the main character, a second character shows up, then tells us about the antagonist. And I guess Lady is there because every DMC game needs a token woman in it no matter how badly they write for her. Using Dante as a marketing ploy is not foolproof, see: DMC2. People don't like that game even though his face is on it.

Removing everyone not directly relevant to Nero for his debut game would have forced them to actually write for his character instead of relying on fanservice and hampering Nero with the need to cater to Dante fans, Lady fans, Trish fans, etc. It stopped being Nero's game despite it being his debut/origin story and as a result we were left with things on the cutting room floor and it took two whole installments (then the art book, the novel, and a pachinko game) to actually tell us who or what they intended Nero to be, whereas "Dante is the Son of Sparda" was delivered to us either in the DMC1 trailer, or for those that played it, in about two sentences of Trish's dialogue. They didn't string us along on a two-game "Who is Dante" mystery stretched over a decade with slot machines and books.

Deliver the meat, not the toppings. When someone orders a steak, they're not going to be satisfied with three ounces and a ton of garnish no matter how good that garnish looks by itself, and someone who's going to leave the restaurant shouldn't order for the rest of the table going forward.

So I'm saying, F Dante. If he already passed the torch to Nero in 4 by giving him a neon Devil May Cry sign per the novel and whatever bit of the game exists across the disc and some slots, it shouldn't have taken a whole other game to "conclude the saga of the Sons of Sparda" and for Dante to pass the torch again. Nero already saved the world once. Get with it already.

And also F Vergil. He was never a strong enough character to carry a game on his own and they keep confirming it. First it was Arkham to be more blatantly villainous than him and take the heat off of him for 7 missions before going back to him in M20, then it was splitting Vergil in two (Urizen/V) just to string people along on an obvious "mystery" where Urizen is the Arkham-like blatantly evil mutant who seeks power because power and also he's evil, and V is just a more humanized Jester with his inordinate knowledge of the setting with duplicitous motives, then Vergil looks more reasonable by comparison even though he's not. He should've stayed dead.

 

[Picard]

I basically agree with above post... but I'd add that there was a way to still have Dante & Co. in the game without necessarily harming Nero: give Dante a completely separate campaign, similar to Resident Evil 4's Separate Ways. Now that wasn't possible due to constricted development time which DMC4 faced, but as a DLC it might have worked. Basically, you tell Nero's story, and then Dante's (and/or Vergil's) campaign serves simply to fill in the gaps left by Nero's campaign. But that would still have to be done carefully, else game could well end up relying too much on Dante still.

 

[berto]

Am I seriously the only one in the entire fandom who takes that quote at face value in the context in which it's being said?

Well, yeah, but that's because it's officially so.

Just like Dante, Vergil wanted to protect Eva, and also you can see his sense of reverence for his father Sparda. This is not merely a picture of polar opposites with Dante = Good and Vergil = Evil. Their love for their parents is the same, but the most important part of their father's legacy is for Dante, his soul, and for Vergil, his power.
-Devil May Cry Film DVD Book - the Trinity of Fates (2006)

 

[Morgan]

Just like Dante, Vergil wanted to protect Eva, and also you can see his sense of reverence for his father Sparda. This is not merely a picture of polar opposites with Dante = Good and Vergil = Evil. Their love for their parents is the same, but the most important part of their father's legacy is for Dante, his soul, and for Vergil, his power.
-Devil May Cry Film DVD Book - the Trinity of Fates (2006)

Nice, you found a source! I was looking for something similar mentioned in the Note of Naught artbook.

 

[Foxtrot94]

Well, yeah, but that's because it's officially so.

Just like Dante, Vergil wanted to protect Eva, and also you can see his sense of reverence for his father Sparda. This is not merely a picture of polar opposites with Dante = Good and Vergil = Evil. Their love for their parents is the same, but the most important part of their father's legacy is for Dante, his soul, and for Vergil, his power.
-Devil May Cry Film DVD Book - the Trinity of Fates (2006)

Finally an official source from back in the day. I still stand by what I said in that DMC3 itself doesn't come across as if Vergil's motivation has anything to do with Eva, even if they had that in mind from the start, instead putting way more emphasis on the Sparda side of what was said in that DVD. Similarly to how in the artbook they said Nero is supposed to have a "twisted" personality but the game itself doesn't really convey that.

 

[berto]

If you guys want more stuff like this I've posted most everything I have on the DMC1 section over the years. Translations, transcripts and scans. I posted this several times over the years.

 

[Morgan]

Finally an official source from back in the day. I still stand by what I said in that DMC3 itself doesn't come across as if Vergil's motivation has anything to do with Eva, even if they had that in mind from the start, instead putting way more emphasis on the Sparda side of what was said in that DVD. Similarly to how in the artbook they said Nero is supposed to have a "twisted" personality but the game itself doesn't really convey that.

Welcome to the club, I guess? This entire series starting from the second or third game stopped being able to properly convey a metric F-ton of things it normally should when it came to characterization, leading people to presume some things in supplementary materials are canon or not according to their own personal headcanon and feelings and getting validated whenever Capcom designs to align the details at their whim. That doesn't mean it was a total accident that Vergil's "Might controls everything" quote had Vergil admonish Dante on his inability to protect anything and then pivoted to his inability to protect himself when the quote could have been 100% written to focus on a more aggressive application of strength. It's not like Dante was trying to protect Lady at that point in time, Sparda wasn't alive for them to do anything other than idolize, and the amulet itself is a moot point since Vergil had a chance a year prior to get it and simply gave it back. The only other person they cared about (as told by Arkham) and could mutually refer to without either of them missing that reference was Eva, and their falling out and presuming the other dead happened at the exact point of Eva's death, where Vergil got his DT and saw his home burn down, while Dante hid and watched/heard Eva die to protect him. It's sure better than retconning the quote to obliquely refer to Nero when he wasn't even invented yet.

While I'm here, shout out to anybody that was up my butt about the whole "Nero is Vergil's son" thing just because I called it out for being dumb given there was no satisfying indication in DMC4 of Nero's parentage being that direct, and because it certainly wasn't intended back in DMC3, and because the only support was a line in an artbook, a badly fan translated novel, and fan theories presuming changes to the timeline with the assumption that V + ? = N was already true because someone knew someone that worked at Capcom who mentioned it in passing once.

 

[BlackAngel]

So I'd change my answer from to "No" to a "Maybe".

It could've worked but its still a long shot. Nero's the first new protagonist but also a weak character in his own right. So you'd have to beef him up with a more distinct character design, more gameplay mechanics and a more defined story.

I probably would've added Vergil for backup. He is the MVP of 3 so exploring what he does when he isn't fighting feels like a good hook. Him being Nero's father is optional but not neccessary. Him just being a mysterious 3rd party stumbling onto whatever the plot actually is would be enough for me.

The love story is the weakest part so I'd beef that up more or scrap it completely and save it for a sequel.

What they should've done is to have players be able to play Vergil's story of DMC4. That way, we get the chance get to know him. And be able to play the story of how he met Nero's mother, how she died, and know the reason why Vergil forsake his humanity and seek power.

Then start Nero when he was a child growing up with an adopted family, how he met Kyrie, (they could've give the side characters better names) and how he was raised by the Order of the Sword.

If you say so. I've always heard from the fanbase that the only external media that are canon are the anime, and more recently the DMC5 novels. There seems to be pretty much consensus there in the fandom, though when it comes to sources I wouldn't know, I think I've seen people citing some on the internet over the years but I couldn't tell you where those threads are, in which forum etc.

All I go off of is the games. They are the source material, and reign supreme when it comes to canonicity.

Doesn't change the fact that they are officially licensed.

 

[V's patron]

What they should've done is to have players be able to play Vergil's story of DMC4. That way, we get the chance get to know him. And be able to play the story of how he met Nero's mother, how she died, and know the reason why Vergil forsake his humanity and seek power.

Then start Nero when he was a child growing up with an adopted family, how he met Kyrie, (they could've give the side characters better names) and how he was raised by the Order of the Sword.

A way to structure that is Nero searching for his origins. But most of that is just an info dump rather than a plot.