Just how is the game slow?

[TheNoHeartedBeing]

Could be, however seeing how the enemies stalling in midair due to Dante jumping near them could be completely removed (probably easily) since Dante as preset combos that keep the enemy in midair, without JCing. Jumping is a mechanic that shouldn't alter falling animations from enemies.

In fact, as I said before, he doesn't need JC since he was specifically built to stay in the air for longer periods of time compared to DMC3/DMC4 Dante. And I think it makes the game slightly broken because of this.


In DMC4/DMC3, JCing required skill. If you weren't in the air, normally you constantly bombarded with attacks when crowded, getting hit constantly unless you knew how to deal with it. (Or unless if you were spamming the same attacks over and over again which is kinda basic, lame, and unskilled).

With Nero, you can pick off certain enemies by bringing them towards you, except with Blitz, Angelos, Fausts/Mephistos unless you de-cloaked them. But you still needed to learn how to JC to stay in the air. With DmC in the mix, you can pick off any enemy in the air by using the same combo over and over again multiple times as well as following up with Angel Lift until the enemy is dead.

tl;dr version: JCing isn't needed anymore nor should it have been added to this game since Dante was programmed to stay in the air.



Do it without Hold and see if it works, then I will believe you.
Otherwise, you aren't cancelling buster (edit) grab*.

You are abusing the Hold tactic to stop the Buster throw from initiating. (which is what I should have said in the first place).




If they didn't put JCing on purpose, then they must knew about it and have left it in considering there were videos about the combat system within the game as unlockables. And it showed several usages of JCing.

And in DMC4, it was put in the game on purpose due to the fact you needed to buy the ability to use enemy step.

Damn i forgot about that. Alright your right. You have your proof.

 

[8BitHero]

I disagree. You can cancel a rebellion move before attacking by jump and/or dodging (I tried it in DMC3. Didn't work. Don't know about Dante in DMC4 but you can't with Red Queen with Nero). It just takes timing but it's possible. I don't think you can cancel many moves/animations in DMC4 though. Especially with Kick13, Real Impact, Uppercut (til the first charge), After Dance Massacre, you have to wait for Dante to almost finish the animation, Fireworks on ground can't be cancelled. Pandora's Grief, Omen, Argument (til it's in form). I thought DmC allows you to cancel almost everything except for Arbiter's attacks, in which you have to press dodge at the first frame to cancel it. I do agree though. I hope the buffering could be fixed. I didn't have a problem with it. I mostly use it for wide combat, not combos. But I still wish they fix it.

Yeah as Dante94513 stated, you can cancel out attack animations before you attack. However the timing for it is strict since you need to dodge immediately after pressing the attack button.

But you can't cancel during the attack animation. Unless you're using Osiris.
And honestly, you can't cancel out animations in DMC4 either until the first few frames after it's Dante is finished attacking. Some moves you can cancel out during their attack animations. But honestly, some attacks are so fast that even though you're doing it after the attack is finished, it leaves you more time to react. I just recently tested this with DMC4 without turbo mode.

Yeah I was wrong, I it's due to how fast the attacks are. Like I said, it's how fast the game is with inputs that probably effects combat. It still doesn't feel refined and cancelling overall feels slightly off. The only big problem at the moment is buffering Ricochet Shot and few other moves. I'll end up making a video at some point

Who are you talking about here Itsuno or Kamiya? Because Kamiya's, the creator of DMC, recent H&S game ran around 60 fps so you need to back a statement up like this (I'm assuming you are talking about Itsuno).

This is simply not true.. Look at the whole Hobbit drama about it running at 48 fps and it looking different. I can tell the difference when i switch a twitch tv stream to 60 fps. There is a difference.
http://boallen.com/fps-compare.html

60 fps is used for responsiveness in addition to fluidity. And there is no evidence that 60 fps can cause headaches (unless you have some medical journal to cite).

I can also tell the difference with 24-48. It's pointless, but it's there.
For gaming it's important. I know DMC isn't a fighting game but I consider it to be on the same level of Street Fighter so if you need do a 1 frame link, you better hope that it's running at 60FPS.

As stated before though, for DMC 60 FPS isn't needed, but I love how smooth games run like that.

 

[DarkSlayer54]

I can only imagine that JC'ing started off similarly to how enemies could be suspended in the air with gun fire alone, you know?
At first, it was just a bug... but they thought it was kind of neat and left it in. I wouldn't call JC'ing an exploit at all... It's just cancelling. Recently I played Budokai 3, and it has cancels too. Heck, even the enemy on Normal difficulty cancel's teleports, which I find difficult to do.
What my point here is... many games have cancels to satisfy the experienced players, and some games make this apparent since it kind of forces the player to start cancelling at a certain point.

Personally, I stay away from cancelling in general unless it's very easy to do. It's just not worth the time spent practicing it... I have plenty of combinations to use without cancelling moves.

 

[ZeroLove]

It's slower, no such thing as trickster, guard cancel etc.

Just because the game lacks some features that were in the original series doesn't mean the game is slower.

 

[LeoXCV]

I can only imagine that JC'ing started off similarly to how enemies could be suspended in the air with gun fire alone, you know?

Your actually more accurate with that statement then you probably know. JC didn't begin in DMC3, it began in DMC1 but could only be done with the shotgun (It's called shotgun hiking if anyone wants to look it up). I would say they saw the potential shotgun hiking had and put it in DMC3 on purpose to test it further with almost all moves implemented. That's what I think at least.

 

[nightrunner_ks]

I can only imagine that JC'ing started off similarly to how enemies could be suspended in the air with gun fire alone, you know?
At first, it was just a bug... but they thought it was kind of neat and left it in. I wouldn't call JC'ing an exploit at all... It's just cancelling. Recently I played Budokai 3, and it has cancels too. Heck, even the enemy on Normal difficulty cancel's teleports, which I find difficult to do.
What my point here is... many games have cancels to satisfy the experienced players, and some games make this apparent since it kind of forces the player to start cancelling at a certain point.

Personally, I stay away from cancelling in general unless it's very easy to do. It's just not worth the time spent practicing it... I have plenty of combinations to use without cancelling moves.

Trust devil may cry fans to name the technique incorrectly jump cancelling is when you are comboing on the ground and cancel an animation by jumping to follow an enemy in the air. Mainly for otg bounce combos in fighting games. I use a jump cancel when I play Nariko in all stars.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

I found walkthrough videos of levels for each game. They are both on the same difficulty level. In the DmC video the guy uses the heavier/slower weapon a lot, but this should be good enough to get the point.

*disappears into smoke* :steve:

I don't find this to be a good comparison :S The players of each video are of different skill levels. I mean, c'mon, the DmC player was swinging at air a lot of the time, it's like they recorded their first playthrough, while the DMC4 player obviously knew the game extremely well :/ I think it'd be better to see one player playing both games - same skill level, same combat mentality.

Why...why can't anyone just use a normal speed gameplay video from DMC3 and DMC4 instead of turbo if you want to compare the speed to DmC. The only person how I've seen done that recently is AlexxShadenk

By the way. The tittle was sarcasm.

This is more like it >_< I actually like how they went through the same combos. DmC is certainly a little bit different, but...not really by much. At least for how this video shows, and my own playtime experiences.

I saw that video awhile back and honestly, it isn't fluid. Or at least not as fluid as the previous games.

Certain transitions between Dante's attacks are more inconsistent than others. The only time when I feel as if combat is fluid is when I do a regular combo that is preprogrammed within the game (Combo A, Combo B etc.) But if you're switching between other attacks, Dante will immediately snap into the initial animated sequence for that move. Rather than smoothly transitioning to it. But in DMC4, (almost) no matter what, Dante had a transition between every attack which blended fairly well together. And this is with Dante's current weapons and styles in DMC4 compared to Dante's demo moveset.

Could this be more about the less frames we see, and not exactly about "fluidity?" I haven't really seen a lot of proper "lead-in" animations on moves in any of the games, especially when you do things like Hightime or Stinger, or even switching to a different weapon entirely. There are certainly points where one move can flow into another much better, but it's not like nearly all of the attacks have lead-in animations from the previous :/

And I also feel that when people say "fluid" they aren't talking about how good it looks, but how easy it is to transition from one weapon to the next, much like in DMC3 and 4. I've gotten it down pretty well, and I have to agree that it feels fluid.

I also find it kinda funny that people talk about fluid animations and high level play is all about canceling animations to the point where the character looks kinda twitchy >_<

I'm sorry to point this out, but you don't need to JC in order to keep the enemy in midair in DmC. You can just spam Angel Lift over and over again and you'll stay in the air indefinitely.

I don't much like that comparison, because it's not the same as actually attacking. You can Lift all day, but it's not going to kill anything unless you're also doing Payoff :/

I don't believe it was 'hastily added'. I think it's just that NT could not replicate the move due to them never implementing this type of mechanic before. Inexperience, in short.

What if resetting the fall animation was something that the Capcom team told them to implement...? We put so much on NT, but we seem to forget that Capcom did have a huge say in a lot of things regarding combat.

Then we can't consider guard cancels as cancels. Its like cancelling million stab animation through guard cancel , follow it with million stabs, is not a cancel since you are using a guard input. Can't agree.

I'm sorry, but...no...it's called a Guard Cancel because you're canceling a move by using Guard. That's why we call it a Jump Cancel (a cancel using a Jump) and an E&I/Shot Cancel (a cancel using E&I or another firearm). You aren't cancelling Buster with another attack, because you're using Hold, a branching move from Buster (like Million Stabs from a Stinger). Hold's properties allow you to continue doing other moves while holding an enemy your grabbed from Buster. Hold is simply a delay in performing the smash down from Buster, much in the exact same way doing Million Stabs from Stinger delays the blast back from the Stinger.

 

[DragonMaster2010]

Despite the story, why call DMC4, SMC4?

-Nero's stereotypical anime characteristics
-A not so good romance plot
-Nero's origin being unconfirmed by Capcom
-demons aren't as creepy anymore
-Dante being, and dressing like a clown.
-backtracking the areas with Dante
-Capcom adding Dante in and making Nero seem weaker then him.
-Nero's limited moves compared to Dante.
-cheesy anime lines from Nero
-cheesy 80's lines from Dante every few seconds.

A few other things, but mostly this stuff here.

 

[ChaserTech]

Long post incoming. Be warned. lol

EDIT: I am explaining myself as how a max act streak and a streak without exceed is compared to buster and hold. Basic input for max act streak is the streak itself. It is explicitly mentioned in move list as how to execute a streak. But there is no move that lists a max act streak as a different move to a streak. A max act streak is an amplified streak. Similarly, the basic input to trigger a hold is buster. Only by triggering a buster, we can think about hold and use of red queen(or blue rose) to cancel subsequent throw animation. So a hold is linked(or triggered) through the buster. So hold is dependent on buster.

The only other significance of it(besides acting as a cancel to the throw) is its defensive ability of guarding nero. Else there is no significance of the hold to be treated as an independent move.

I'm sorry but you're wrong. Within the actual game, Ex-Streak, Ex-Shuffle, Ex-High Roller, Ex-Split (aka Double Down), are considered to be separate moves. It's even listed within the game.

I don't split the buster animations into upper-cut followed by a throw. It is a single sequence. If they were split like agni and rudra's million slash(last strike can be cancelled), we would not have needed a hold in order to cancel the throw.

I just said you could cancel the throw, but not the initial grab. (Edit, didn't need the first part at all of the sentence since I misread that quote)

Which is what I was talking about throughout the entire discussion. And honestly, the Buster is considered to be the grab portion of the move. So I don't think it's a single sequence.

www.devils-lair.org/w-devilbringer.php


Hold:

Position a captured enemy in front of you as a demon shield to ward off attacks. Enemies who cannot be snatched are unable to be used as shields.
After completing a Buster, continue to hold O.

If you don't believe me, I took a screenshot of the ability myself.

So since you're already completing the Buster grab, not the throw, you aren't cancelling it when you use Hold to cancel the throw.

EDIT: Sorry i missed this. I agree that DTing while buster or snatch does not cancel the buster but any and all attacks of redqueen are cancelled when DT is triggered.

Yes. As well as Red Queen attacks, you can cancel Charged Shot animations just by D.T.ing so the recovery time won't be in effect.

I don't much like that comparison, because it's not the same as actually attacking. You can Lift all day, but it's not going to kill anything unless you're also doing Payoff :/

Oh I know that. But he was talking about JCing specifically, not actually attacking. You can JC moves all you want but if the move doesn't actually hit the enemy, you aren't doing anything. Same thing applies to Angel Lift.

Could this be more about the less frames we see, and not exactly about "fluidity?" I haven't really seen a lot of proper "lead-in" animations on moves in any of the games, especially when you do things like Hightime or Stinger, or even switching to a different weapon entirely.

Oh no, like I stated before, Dante in DmC has a habit of snapping into preset animations for different moves, especially when doing using different weapons.
Rather than attacking, going back to the neutral animation, then attacking with a different weapon.

Whenever the game is stable at 30fps, it's fairly fluid. But not until you between switching through weapons.

DMC4 almost has a transition for every combination of moves. Dante will attack, rebound, and attack with a different weapon when you cycle through your weapons. The only exception is that guns weren't properly animated with a clean transition. (I don't know why)
Even JCing looks more fluid than DmC, especially in non turbo mode. Most moves do have a good transition. I would also consider arguing that Guard Cancelling has better transitions than all of Dante's moves in DmC when he cycles through his weapons.

And I also feel that when people say "fluid" they aren't talking about how good it looks, but how easy it is to transition from one weapon to the next . . .

That is what I'm talking about. Fluid transitions from one move to another. Unless you were just talking about people in general. Which in that case, I can kinda agree upon.

-Nero's stereotypical anime characteristics
-A not so good romance plot
-Nero's origin being unconfirmed by Capcom
-demons aren't as creepy anymore
-Dante being, and dressing like a clown.
-backtracking the areas with Dante
-Capcom adding Dante in and making Nero seem weaker then him.
-Nero's limited moves compared to Dante.
-cheesy anime lines from Nero
-cheesy 80's lines from Dante every few seconds.

A few other things, but mostly this stuff here.

I see, but you know you could refrain from calling it SMC4. It makes you seem childish, no offense.

I get that you don't like the game but you don't hear me calling DmC, SmC for S*** may Cry or something like that just because I don't particularly like the gameplay nor the design of the characters. I would be branded as a complete hater here.

 

[SpawnShooter]

Trust devil may cry fans to name the technique incorrectly jump cancelling is when you are comboing on the ground and cancel an animation by jumping to follow an enemy in the air. Mainly for otg bounce combos in fighting games. I use a jump cancel when I play Nariko in all stars.

I hate to sound pedantic but that's not true. A cancel in any combat game primarily refers to cancelling the recovery animation of a move with something else.
This is exactly what's happening in DMC, you are canceling the recovery of a move by jumping hence jump cancel.
In fighting games jump cancels can usually be done off aerial moves also and it has nothing to do with being on the ground, some ground moves are jump cancel able which is where you're getting confused, but it's move dependent not state.

EDIT: There is also much more to JC in fighting games than their use in combos, they are very important for defence, block strings and cross ups.

 

[Vergil&Dante]

DMC3 and 4 are better with frames than DmC, and you can tell the different (or someone can)..
But after I tryied the demo, it is not soo bad like i thought..
DmC is a bit slower(DmC DT is different than DMC where he is super fast), but this is young dante, maybe he will be faster on next game DmC2 with 60fps i hope..

And about the DMC4, my friend tryied it about a 2years ago, and just pushing the buttons without knowing what combo he is using, he completed that mission and another one in devil hunter mode..
So since maybe Dante and Nero on DMC4 is so fast, it is easier to defeat the enemys than DmC..
The same friend tryied the nephlim mode on the demo and failed 4 times, than he gave up trying..


Maybe NT wanted Dante to be slower so you can't just push any buttons to defeat the enemys in a easy way?
In DmC you have to dodge alot to get SSS!
And the enemys are more difficult than DMC..

 

[ChaserTech]

DMC3 and 4 are better with frames than DmC, and you can tell the different (or someone can)..
But after I tryied the demo, it is not soo bad like i thought..
DmC is a bit slower(DmC DT is different than DMC where he is super fast), but this is young dante, maybe he will be faster on next game DmC2 with 60fps i hope..

That is unless Capcom even produces a DmC2 with 60fps.

And about the DMC4, my friend tryied it about a 2years ago, and just pushing the buttons without knowing what combo he is using, he completed that mission and another one in devil hunter mode..
So since maybe Dante and Nero on DMC4 is so fast, it is easier to defeat the enemys than DmC..
The same friend tryied the nephlim mode on the demo and failed 4 times, than he gave up trying..

Devil Hunter isn't that hard. And Nero in DMC4 is considered to be very slow and sluggish unless you know how to use him properly. But this mainly in non turbo mode since turbo mode is often excluded in comparing gameplay speeds. Defeating enemies in DMC4 is actually easier in Devil Hunter mode since they die faster than DmC enemies.

Also, I just completed Under Watch in Nephilim mode by mashing the triangle button without dodging attacks. I let myself get hit whenever I saw an enemy swing my way.
But I didn't stand there to allow myself to get hit, I just continued to attack the enemy that was in front of me, which is what most new players would do unless they are bothered by the enemy that's about to attack them. And I didn't go looking for health either. I just continued the entire mission and I beat it. And that's the easiest thing I can think of in terms of killing enemies in an extremely basic way without switching weapons.

And since command prompts would interrupt you in the middle of gameplay, forcing the game to pause until you did the move, I'm sure the game would teach you how to play rather than flashing the move on the screen, showing you how to perform the move, and then fading away. Which is what DMC4 does. So if your friend is literally pressing random inputs in DmC, or if the help screen is disabled, then it's expected to see him/her struggle.

Not to mention the fact that you can't compare levels when the DmC demo was basically meant to show you what type of enemies you'll experience. It offers more enemy types in one mission than almost any mission in DMC4 when played on SoS mode as well. (I know you didn't say this but I'm just throwing it out there).

Maybe NT wanted Dante to be slower so you can't just push any buttons to defeat the enemys in a easy way?
In DmC you have to dodge alot to get SSS!
And the enemys are more difficult than DMC..

Demon Dodging in DmC is considerably easy. At least a lot easier than Royal Guarding and even using Table Hopper.
Not to mention that it's basically broken since you can use the Demon Dodge mechanic to grant high rankings easily combined with other moves (Trillion Stabs, Arbiter combos, etc.).

Without it, getting SSS ranking is harder.

 

[Blacknerd]

Its really about grouping enemies up same as 3-4. The more enemies your continusly attackig the more points you get to the style meter. I barely use trinity smash to get SSS ranking cause cmon thats boring and easy if you know how to do it. I look for the most difficut ways to build the style meter. Such as using angel weapons and rebellion quite often.

idk thats just my play style

 

[Calypso Dynamo]

Of course DmC2 will have 60fps, it will be on the next generation of counsels, it's silly to think other wise.

 

[ChaserTech]

Of course DmC2 will have 60fps, it will be on the next generation of counsels, it's silly to think other wise.

60fps has been running on consoles back when Dreamcast existed. It's not new.
Yet DmC decides to run at 30fps on a PS3/Xbox 360?

Just because a game has updated hardware, doesn't automatically mean that all games on the newer systems will run at 60fps. It gives a higher probability, yes. But that doesn't mean it's definite.

 

[ZeroLove]

It depends on what engine they will make it on. NT made DmC with the Unreal Engine which happens to run at 30fps. Unless they change the engine or the engine will upgrade to 60fps, then the sequal will stay at 30fps.

 

[Calypso Dynamo]

Considering it runs at 60 fps on PC and that UE3 was originally shown back in 04, I'd imagine the new engine is on it's way not to mention the sheer amount of bitching from the fans i can't see them not using 60fps.

 

[Calypso Dynamo]

and yes i understand that the PC version is not true 60fps, but it shows there attempting to cater to the fans as much as possible.

 

[aoshi]

Within the actual game, Ex-Streak, Ex-Shuffle, Ex-High Roller, Ex-Split (aka Double Down), are considered to be separate moves. It's even listed within the game.

I think i compared streak to a MAX-ACT streak and not a EX-streak. But still the basic input to a EX-Streak or a Max act streak is still the streak itself which was my point. If you are considering a ex streak as same as max act streak, We can all agree that a hold is same as buster(though technically not but still a cancel to throw in buster animation).

Edit:

So since you're already completing the Buster grab, not the throw, you aren't cancelling it when you use Hold to cancel the throw.

Can't agree. Throw is the significant part of buster move and hold is clearly for cancellation of throw in buster animation.In fact, throw does the actual damage and so it is significant.

Hold:

Position a captured enemy in front of you as a demon shield to ward off attacks. Enemies who cannot be snatched are unable to be used as shields.
After completing a Buster, continue to hold O.

So since you're already completing the Buster grab, not the throw, you aren't cancelling it when you use Hold to cancel the throw.

My point was that hold was an extension of buster jus as max-act streak is an amplification(kinda extension) of streak. I also said that it is used to guard nero which is its ability. But royal-guard ability is to block enemies but still we use it in cancels. I think of hold as the same way(as a cancel to the throw or subsequent animation of buster).Hold is not an entirely different move from buster but is an extension of buster(which is my point).Its significance is to cancel throw of buster. In real time scenarios , using hold as a guard would not fetch style points nor is considered stylish move however cancelling throw of buster with red queen calibur is stylish.

You aren't cancelling Buster with another attack, because you're using Hold, a branching move from Buster (like Million Stabs from a Stinger).

I think i explained clearly in earlier posts that throw animation of buster can be cancelled using hold and red queen or blue rose attacks. Throw part of animation is still buster(which is my point).As i said earlier, throw does the actual damage in buster.

Hold's properties allow you to continue doing other moves while holding an enemy your grabbed from Buster. Hold is simply a delay in performing the smash down from Buster

Royal guard's properties are to block and release. But we still use it in cancels. Same goes for hold.

 

[m100t8s]

Of course DmC2 will have 60fps, it will be on the next generation of counsels, it's silly to think other wise.

I don't think that DmC will sell well to get a sequel.