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Joy Begets Anger (DmC-related)

^ That's a really cool sig. :thumbsup:


snip for space
That's not what Jim was saying. He isn't saying that people can't disagree with reviews or hate games. He's saying that the amount of hate getting thrown at people who like certain games is ridiculous. For instance, I think The Last of Us is overrated and boring, but I'm not going to fling insults at the people who do like it. Same goes with games like DmC and Mass Effect 3. The problem isn't that people dislike a game, but that people are so upset, offended, and purely enraged that other people like something they don't like. It's okay to be mad at a game or at developers for making a bad game, but to p*ss all over the people who enjoy said game is ridiculous. That is what this video is talking about.
 
I don't see how anyone can say DmC was the worst, in a year that Ride to Hell: Retribution exists in...
I remember when I first read about that in GameInformer, I thought it was intentionally bad mainly because it sounded like it was one of those pre-2003 games that no one bothered testing
You know? The kind that AVGN said ended around the pioneering days of gaming and quality control started to be enforced via internet reviewers.
To hear that 10 years later, a game like that was made as anything other than a joke, it made me lose the slightest bit of faith in humanity.
EDIT: After doing a bit of research on the game, I found out that it was actually originally announced in 2008, apparently, the original announced version, from what I read, was heavily revised and a lot of the things that made it good were removed in the process of development hell
 
That's not what Jim was saying. *He isn't saying that people can't disagree with reviews or hate games. He's saying that the amount of hate getting thrown at people who like certain games is ridiculous. For instance, I think The Last of Us is overrated and boring, but I'm not going to fling insults at the people who do like it. Same goes with games like DmC and Mass Effect 3. The problem isn't that people dislike a game, but that people are so upset, offended, and purely enraged that other people like something they don't like. It's okay to be mad at a game or at developers for making a bad game, but to p*ss all over the people who enjoy said game is ridiculous. That is what this video is talking about.

*That was not my main point, so please reread my comment. I'm not going to respond to a certain point if you're not going to quote any of mine in particular. All I want to say is, the general theme I'm getting from this thread is 'stop hating what I like'. Nobody cares 'how many people liked game x' - that's not a valid reason not to hate something.
And about the reviews... when mediocre games get 9/10s just because the reviewers 'liked' them, I'm really getting the sense we're ending up in some kind of retarded Facebook universe. Nothing can be judged objectively anymore, it's just ''I like it, therefore 10/10''. It makes no sense! What is good or bad about it? You can't make a review so completely subjective in such a vague way. I am getting so f*cking sick of that sh*t. Over and over again. So yes, there is hate. In certain cases, I've got plenty of it myself. And I'm not ashamed of that.
 
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Also, I think the guy who made the video is probably missing the point. For at least half the video, he talks about how certain reviews (and even one of his own) liking certain games were hated by people who hated those games. I don't think people are so insane that the only reason for their hatred towards those people's opinion of games is their 'liking' of it. I think the vid creator is trying to gloss over the fact that the aforementioned reviews were probably overly positive and didn't mention enough of the negatives. Or the possibility that his reviews didn't give great reasons for giving scores so high.
His point of 'don't hate the people who like CoD and sh!t, hate the developers' is obvious, but he missed something. The people who give it too much praise and keep supporting it are perpetuating this stream of mediocre games. Don't blame the developers for continuing making mediocre games if people keep shelling out for them. Seriously.

It's not about hating people who 'like' something. That's too simple a representation of what's going on. It's more like people are getting annoyed (including me) about people who are easily impressed. It's like games don't have to reach certain standards of story or gameplay anymore, they just have to be 'fun', and that's enough. Well, not if you want them to be great.
 
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I don't think people are so insane that they'll hate others only for liking things.
At least three people on this forum alone said I had "bad taste in games" simply because I liked DmC.

And at least one other (former? heh) member was "insane" enough to call me an idiot because of it.

Yes, I do consider name-calling to be qualified as "hatred". Very much so, in fact.

However, the reason as to why I'm here instead of say, gamefaqs/ign/phantombabies/what-have-you is because the mods will put an painless and speedy end to all that nonsense ricky-tick. [phrase stolen from Credo Angelo lol]
It's like games don't have to reach certain standards of story or gameplay anymore, they just have to be 'fun'. They just have to be liked, and that's enough. Well, not if you want them to be great.
Whose standards, exactly? Yours? Famitsu's? Gaming Brit's?

What IS the Gold Standard according to you? And just because it's not up to YOUR standards, that certainly doesn't mean that it's not up to OURS.

It's more like people are getting annoyed (including me) about people who are easily impressed.
So, you don't like it when people like something you hate, then.

Gotcha.
 
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At least three people on this forum alone said I had "bad taste in games" simply because I liked DmC.

Whose standards, exactly? Yours? Famitsu's? Gaming Brit's?

What IS the Gold Standard according to you? And just because it's not up to YOUR standards, that certainly doesn't mean that it's not up to OURS.

So, you don't like it when people like something you hate, then.

Gotcha.
...Hell, I guess you could be right. They don't like it, therefore they hate that you like it.

Whose standards? Well, generally accepted ones, I guess. I mean, games are supposed to be fun. That is the first thing games should be - it is the first thing developers should get right with their games. It is only the basis of a game. If the game is not fun, it is not a game. Once the game is fun, you then proceed to improve it by adding a good story, characters etc. To say that a video game is 'great' or 'amazing' just because it is fun is very odd. If 'fun' is the only standard games should fit, then there would be no sense in crafting a good story or characters or soundtrack or whatever, because 'I liked it, and that's enough'. And yet, that's not how it works with anything. Movies are usually held to high standards too. They can't just be fun: if their scripts are idiotic or the characters have no business existing, then it's all pretty much ****e.

EDIT: Maybe I'm just mixing up the word 'fun' with 'liking something'. But that's usually people's argument: they ''loved it because it was fun''. Not an amazing reason since games are supposed to be fun, but whatever.

Anyway, I'm saying people are mainly getting ****ed because of how people can blow stuff up to epic proportions. Like when a game is only decent overall, they rate it a 9/10 instead of a 6/10. I agree that many things are subjective, but when I see reviews of Fable III or ME3 with a 9.5/10 slapped on, I can't help but laugh, because ME3's story is not even consistent with the previous MEs on some points. And Fable III is objectively speaking just mediocre in most respects, so there's no way it should get a 9/10.
 
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"Coolmaster" still sounds better.
So far there are 2 Canon ships on this site
Alittlerandomlulz (Alittleacorn X Mrrandomlulz, star crossed lovers, one a supporter, the other a skeptic, a tale of tragedy that proves true rabid shipping conquers all)
And now
Coolmaster2074 (DragonMaster2010 X Tocool74)
 
I just think the guy in the video is assuming things too much. He basically said that since people disliked certain positive reviews, or because they disliked a positive review of his, that must mean they 'hate him for liking the game'. How does he know that? Does he have a comments section where people literally say ''I hate you for liking this game''? I mean, reviews don't just convey that you 'liked' something or not, they convey all kinds of positive points and negative points. So if somebody disagrees with your positive review, that does not mean he hates you for liking the game. It might just mean he thinks you've put too much value on the positive points and too little on the negatives. Hell, if he doesn't say anything about it, it might just mean he hates the review because he disagrees with it. That happens. People often thumbs down things they don't agree with.
 
Well, all I can say is that I can see how the vitriol might lead him to think that.

However, I honestly do believe that there's at least a good percentage of people out there who hate him for his opinions. I say that without exaggeration, either.
No doubt. The more I think about it, the more I realize all logic points in that direction. Thanks for the debate!
 
*That was not my main point, so please reread my comment. I'm not going to respond to a certain point if you're not going to quote any of mine in particular.

That was needlessly curt. O_o But whatever, I'll humor you. Here's the part of your post I was specifically responding to:

So... this is basically a video hating on people who hate certain games. Alright, so according to you, hating a game is wrong, but hating the people who hate it is justified? O...kaay.
What is that video even about? It's about a person who apparently hates that people have opinions. Anger is not by definition a bad thing; it powerfully shows people what is good or acceptable and what is not. You can't preemptively stop people from flaming. Most of the time, the cause of the flaming isn't even the flamers themselves, it's the people who don't review things honestly. The video mentioned ME3. Didn't like it. It had almost no replayability, hardly any RPG elements, and for some reason the overall writing quality appeared to have deteriorated. It was decent, but was it worth a 9.5/10? Heeellll no. Hence the reason for the anger.

Do you see where I was coming from now?

And I would like to respond to some of your other points since then:

And about the reviews... when mediocre games get 9/10s just because the reviewers 'liked' them, I'm really getting the sense we're ending up in some kind of retarded Facebook universe. Nothing can be judged objectively anymore, it's just ''I like it, therefore 10/10''. It makes no sense! What is good or bad about it? You can't make a review so completely subjective in such a vague way. I am getting so f*cking sick of that sh*t. Over and over again. So yes, there is hate. In certain cases, I've got plenty of it myself. And I'm not ashamed of that.

...Hell, I guess you could be right. They don't like it, therefore they hate that you like it.

Whose standards? Well, generally accepted ones, I guess. I mean, games are supposed to be fun. That is the first thing games should be - it is the first thing developers should get right with their games. It is only the basis of a game. If the game is not fun, it is not a game. Once the game is fun, you then proceed to improve it by adding a good story, characters etc. To say that a video game is 'great' or 'amazing' just because it is fun is very odd. If 'fun' is the only standard games should fit, then there would be no sense in crafting a good story or characters or soundtrack or whatever, because 'I liked it, and that's enough'. And yet, that's not how it works with anything. Movies are usually held to high standards too. They can't just be fun: if their scripts are idiotic or the characters have no business existing, then it's all pretty much ****e.

EDIT: Maybe I'm just mixing up the word 'fun' with 'liking something'. But that's usually people's argument: they ''loved it because it was fun''. Not an amazing reason since games are supposed to be fun, but whatever.

Anyway, I'm saying people are mainly getting ****ed because of how people can blow stuff up to epic proportions. Like when a game is only decent overall, they rate it a 9/10 instead of a 6/10. I agree that many things are subjective, but when I see reviews of Fable III or ME3 with a 9.5/10 slapped on, I can't help but laugh, because ME3's story is not even consistent with the previous MEs on some points. And Fable III is objectively speaking just mediocre in most respects, so there's no way it should get a 9/10.

The problem with your argument here is that there is no such thing as an objective review. They are subjective by nature. Reviews are one person's opinion. There is no such thing as an objectively good story, or characters, setting, gameplay mechanics, etc. The only objective things in game design are things like graphical quality, frame rates, amount of bugs and glitches, and stuff like that. You even said yourself that games are supposed to be fun before anything else. So why is it so bad for a reviewer to give a game a good score for being enjoyable? Even if the story or whatever is lacking, if a game is fun enough to make up for its shortcomings: that's worth something.

And besides, final scores are not only completely subjective, but also arbitrary. Too many gamers care way to much about review scores. So you thought Mass Effect's writing was lacking, so what? I personally love ME3; it's my favorite in the series. But why should that matter to you or to anyone? The whole point of that video and this thread is that people care too much about other people's opinions about games. As I said many times before, I don't like The Last of Us, but I'm not going to bash reviewers and fans who praise it. Sure it boggles my mind that game is so popular, and yeah I've complained about how lackluster I think it is, but I'm never attacked people for liking it.

And that is the whole point of the video and thread. There's nothing wrong with disliking a game. Getting butt hurt over reviews and opinions is another story. It's that simple.
 
NEW SHIP:
DaiMeg

Essentially the lovers in denial, Meg had trouble finding true-forum-love for all of her accounts life, until the beautiful dashing new member Daimon Leon, these bitter rivals found attractive qualities in each other after Mrrandomlulz said they did in this thread, however, neither of their feelings were revealed until after Daimon left the forum. Meg was shocked, she still replied to him in the thread in complete denial on the mysterious young man's dissapearance, and in regret because she didn't listen to mrrandomlulz's sage advice of asking him out on a shipfic

Moral of the story: Don't deny what mrrandomlulz knows is your true feelings
 
NEW SHIP:
DaiMeg

Essentially the lovers in denial, Meg had trouble finding true-forum-love for all of her accounts life, until the beautiful dashing new member Daimon Leon, these bitter rivals found attractive qualities in each other after Mrrandomlulz said they did in this thread, however, neither of their feelings were revealed until after Daimon left the forum. Meg was shocked, she still replied to him in the thread in complete denial on the mysterious young man's dissapearance, and in regret because she didn't listen to mrrandomlulz's sage advice of asking him out on a shipfic

Moral of the story: Don't deny what mrrandomlulz knows is your true feelings
DA LUV OF MAH LIFE HAS LEFT ME!!!!!!

Expect I found out he left AFTER I responded to his post, not before. :wink: Still a good story though. Your post cracked me up. I don't know about "DaiMeg" though. It sounds like "die meg." What about Megeon? Maimon? Leg? I like Leg.
 
Um... I never actually bothered to wiki up on the original ME3 story so... what exactly was the problem with that game?

I mean, I saw clips of it in passing; from what I gathered, it was "all in someone's imagination" or something like that.

And could someone explain how the new ending "fixed" the story?
 
Um... I never actually bothered to wiki up on the original ME3 story so... what exactly was the problem with that game?

I mean, I saw clips of it in passing; from what I gathered, it was "all in someone's imagination" or something like that.

And could someone explain how the new ending "fixed" the story?

The story ended in a very open way that invited the players themselves to decide what happened to the galaxy in their game. People complained that there not being gigantic blow-out endings of varying outcomes, saying that all of their decisions throughout three games made no difference in the end because they were forced to choose one of three "colored endings", and then given a small "in the distant future" ending scene to roll the credits on.

People were also upset because they found the antagonist race's justifications for doing everything to be entirely stupid given what was learned through the trilogy - The Reapers show up and cull advanced civilizations from the galaxy to prevent them from creating robots that would destroy them. People claimed this was bullsh!t because you're able to make a robot civilization get along with an organic one. The problem is that the people somehow missed the fact that it's the entire point that we the players, along with Shepard, find it completely dumb, hence why Shepard is given the decision to change things. The Reapers were a solution to a problem that ignored the fact that humans are unpredictable, and they were made by a program from eons ago that didn't take that into account - hence the entire reason the player is given the "multicolored choice".

The "imagination thing" was a theory about how the main character was being brainwashed by the aliens into thinking he was doing the right things, or that it was all in a grievously-injured Commander Shepard's mind.

The problem is that people attributed that final, multicolored choice as the be all end all of everything, when it was really just one last choice in a trilogy completely built around choices. I think there was some inflated sense of importance in the player's choices, though, because Mass Effect was never really anywhere near as open as people seemed to attribute it with based on the reactions to the ending.

Everyone went to the same locations, fought many of the same foes, and had many of the same experiences. The only differences that were affected by choices were in character relationships, that's about it.

People also complained that the things that are shown leave many characters with unknown or horrible fates. One in particular is that the Mass Relays (that allowed for intergalactic travel) were destroyed in the process, which everyone says destroys the galaxies because in the ME2 DLC Arrival a Mass Relay is destroyed and goes supernova - destroying the entire solar system that relay was in. This was really odd, considering how nitpicky the fans were, that they didn't take notice of both the circumstances nor the destruction of the relays themselves that were different between Arrival and ME3's ending.

The "expanded ending" added some still images over a short narration that showed what happened in the galaxy due to your decisions, and actually revised the Relay's destruction (which was entirely retarded considering there was nothing wrong with them). It adds a little bit to help players still formulate their own ideas of what happened, but some people were still p!ssed that it wasn't a bunch of different and extremely varied cutscenes.

All in all, the ME3 ending was hated because people somehow lacked imaginations.
 
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Um... I never actually bothered to wiki up on the original ME3 story so... what exactly was the problem with that game?

I mean, I saw clips of it in passing; from what I gathered, it was "all in someone's imagination" or something like that.

And could someone explain how the new ending "fixed" the story?
I personally was annoyed with ME3 not so much with the somewhat weird original ending but that it presumed you (the player) had splashed cash on all the previous DLC and were therefore completely up to date with current events. It offered little to no explanation for those who had not spent extra money and in my opinion, DLC should ALWAYS be an optional extra that whilst it may get some nods towards it in a main title, it should not be responsible for continuity. I did not buy any of the ME2 DLC because ME2 disappointed me greatly by all but abandoning its RPG roots for a cinematic shooter. The DLC was what I would expect to find in an FPS game - not my cup of tea. So when I got hold of ME3 and found that I had to fill in the gaps on my own (and even then Wiki half of it), that was supremely disappointing. I went from being the saviour of the galaxy to being in loads of trouble for something without ever actually doing anything. I had to google what the hell was going on and it turned out I killed a load of Batarians. In DLC I never even played. That annoys me so much...in a game that boasts choices, it should have anticipated that I may actually not have PLAYED the DLC instead of creating a new game that presumes my previous choices, thus throwing me into an unknown set of circumstances and me wondering what the point was of saving my character for all this time. For me it was bad enough having already had some experience of the ME world. Imagine the consternation of someone who picked ME3 as their first foray into the universe? Granted it is unusual to go for the third installment first, but it does happen and in those cases players were given NOTHING to go on - no explanations, no introductions to characters, no backstories - nothing. I wasn't expecting people to be given a hand to hold but there was a little too much presumption on the part of BioWare regardless.
 
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