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Is Vergil evil or not?

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ZeroLove

Well-known Member
That example is flawed for obvious reasons.

For one Dante and Vergil can take ALOT of damage.

Dante got impaled 5 times by scythes at the beginning of the game and was fine. I'm pretty sure Vergil knew Dante would be fine after the stab. He just wanted to keep him from getting up for the time being.

Comparing it to putting a nail into your sister's hand seem ridiculous in comparison when you consider how much damage these 2 can take and still be fine.

Its more like punching your brother in the face and knocking him down so you can get away.

Sure its cruel and mean but not evil.

And its not like Vergil had a choice in getting controlled by Mundus.

So saying he is evil because he got controlled and could not do anything about the demons he unleashed does seem kinda "off".

Its like if I where to start cooking dinner and left to go outside. afterwards I get kidnapped and my house as well as my neighbors house catches on fire killing people.

Does that mean I am a evil person for being kidnapped and be helpless to do anything?

I don't think so.

Cooking dinner wouldn't hurt anyone in itself. What Vergil did would hurt others and he knew that, but didn't care. A more correct metaphor would be if you lit up a house on fire with people in it just to get you warm, but you knew the people in the house would die from the fire, but didn't care.
Anyways, we should agree to disagree. You don't think Vergil is evil, but I do. You made some good points, but I still see him as evil, because to me, actions say more than intentions. I'd like to see what others think of this topic though. ^^

Good and evil is kind of relative here.

Lady kills her own father.
Vergil almost kills his own brother, is happy to kill Arkham at the door of the Lair of Judgement, and helps raise a tower that gets a lot of townspeople killed.
Dante is willing to kill his own brother to stop him having more power, and more than happy to kill Arkham.
Arkham is willing to kill just about anyone to get what he wants.

So they're all willing to murder someone else to get what they think is right. The only difference is what the belief is. Whether you kill someone to save other people, or for your own purposes, you're still doing it because of personal belief.

Vergil isn't evil, he's selfish. At no point does he directly kill anybody who doesn't rightly deserve it, he only kills those who are a threat to himself or are putting themselves in the way of his plan. He is not a sadist, or revelling in 'evil' as Arkham is. He indirectly kills people with the raising tower, but he probably considers that collateral damage for the greater good. Dante considers Vergil's death collateral damage for the greater good, and Lady her father's death, etc.


Very good points. All in all, evil is in the eye of the beholder, so to speak. That was kinda what I meant with the whole Osama Bin Laden example I made in the other thread, that Osama himself and his followers didn't consider their actions for evil, but consider Americans for evil, so the whole 9/11 incident was to them for the greater good.
I just want to note that I don't see it that way! It was just an example.
 

ToCool74

"Fair" DmC Skeptic
Premium
Cooking dinner wouldn't hurt anyone in itself. What Vergil did would hurt others and he knew that, but didn't care. A more correct metaphor would be if you lit up a house on fire with people in it just to get you warm, but you knew the people in the house would die from the fire, but didn't care.
Anyways, we should agree to disagree. You don't think Vergil is evil, but I do. You made some good points, but I still see him as evil, because to me, actions say more than intentions. I'd like to see what others think of this topic though. ^^

Ok fine.

But I would like to hear what you have to say towards my Vergil stabbing Dante comparison?

Do you still think it was evil of him to do so despite the fact that Vergil should know that Dante can take ALOT of damage and be fine?

And would you still compare it to stabbing your sister in the hand?
 

ZeroLove

Well-known Member
Ok fine.

But I would like to hear what you have to say towards my Vergil stabbing Dante comparison?

Do you still think it was evil of him to do so despite the fact that Vergil should know that Dante can take ALOT of damage and be fine?

And would you still compare it to stabbing your sister in the hand?

It is obvious that Dante was hurt by the stabbing and lost alot of blood. He lies unconscious for a moment after the fight as well. Wether or not if he can handle it doesn't really matter. The action itself, to stab Dante through the chest with two huge swords, is something I consider an act of evil. My sister would recover from a nail through the hand as well, so I don't see that metaphor as too far off. I did try to lower it to more human standards of pain toleration and physical damage. It's not a perfect metaphor though.

Doing evil for the greater good is still doing evil. Another example that comes to mind is Ozymandias from Watchmen, if you have seen that movie. He kills MANY people in order to stop World War 3. But what he did was still evil. He still killed ALOT of people. I don't think that it is alright to kill one innocent to save a thousand. I guess that's just me.
 

ToCool74

"Fair" DmC Skeptic
Premium
It is obvious that Dante was hurt by the stabbing and lost alot of blood. He lies unconscious for a moment after the fight as well. Wether or not if he can handle it doesn't really matter. The action itself, to stab Dante through the chest with two huge swords, is something I consider an act of evil. My sister would recover from a nail through the hand as well, so I don't see that metaphor as too far off. I did try to lower it to more human standards of pain toleration and physical damage. It's not a perfect metaphor though.

.

The difference is Dante was fine moments afterwards.

Maybe like 10 seconds at most.

Your sister's hand would take months to heal properly not to mention it would leave a scar.

The comparison just seems far off to me but whatever.....
 

ZeroLove

Well-known Member
The difference is Dante was fine moments afterwards.

Maybe like 10 seconds at most.

Your sister's hand would take months to heal properly not to mention it would leave a scare.

The comparison just seems far off to me but whatever.....

So what you say is that it is okay to beat Dante unconscious, making him bleed and stab him several times, because he will be alright moments after?
 

ToCool74

"Fair" DmC Skeptic
Premium
So what you say is that it is okay to beat Dante unconscious, making him bleed and stab him several times, because he will be alright moments after?

No.

If you've read my posts from before you would see that is not the case.

Its not right.

Its pretty cruel and mean to do that to your brother.

But not evil.

Evil would have been if he went over and cut Dante's head off.
 

D-Sparda

Nothing is true, everything is permitted
Vergil is a badass on the loose whose actions to obtain his father's power smell like a bitter taste of darkness.

To me, Vergil doesn't have that evil aura, but I cannot neglect the fact that the Dark Slayer helped that worthless trash known as Arkham to erect that accursed tower, Temen-ni-gru, once sealed by is own awesome father.

What the son of Sparda would of done with so much power? Would it be use to eradicate every demons? If it is yes, than the end justifies the means.
 

V

Oldschool DMC fan
...I think Vergil was well aware stabbing Dante wouldn't kill him, but temporarily disable him and instead awaken his demonic power. He has to know this because he's been through it himself from what he says right after Dante tries to punch him. Dante seemed not to know it, though... and he took it pretty personally. I guess Vergil and Dante had fought a lot before, but Vergil had never gone so far as to literally 'mortally' injure his own brother.

From Dante's POV it was naturally going to **** him off and would have seemed a genuinely murderous move on Vergil's part. It probably hurt like hell and perhaps he thought he was going to die. But in reality, Dante is practically unkillable. It's violent, and it was a cruel thing to do for the first time, but being a supernatural being, it wasn't actually murderous. It was just mean. Or Machiavellian. However you want to look at it...

If you have a rivalry with your siblings, (which I did when I was young, as the eldest) it's hard to help asserting your dominance over them even if it means resorting to bullying and dirty tricks. ;)
 

ZeroLove

Well-known Member
No.

If you've read my posts from before you would see that is not the case.

Its not right.

Its pretty cruel and mean to do that to your brother.

But not evil.

Evil would have been if he went over and cut Dante's head off.

I guess you and I have different views on what is evil and not. XD

Vergil is a badass on the loose whose actions to obtain his father's power smell like a bitter taste of darkness.

To me, Vergil doesn't have that evil aura, but I cannot neglect the fact that the Dark Slayer helped that worthless trash known as Arkham to erect that accursed tower, Temen-ni-gru, once sealed by is own awesome father.

What the son of Sparda would of done with so much power? Would it be use to eradicate every demons? If it is yes, than the end justifies the means.

See, I don't think the means justifies the end when so many people end up dying, because of the demons unleashed in the process. Dante is doing a good job killing off the demons and helping out people without being on a quest for power and since Dante's and Vergil's power level is basically the same, then Vergil would be able to do that as well. However, instead Vergil chooses to embrace his demonic side and strives for more power. His ambitions is what makes him be evil, imo.
 

ToCool74

"Fair" DmC Skeptic
Premium
I guess you and I have different views on what is evil and not. XD
.

So you think it would be evil to knock your brother out despite the fact that you know for a fact he will be just fine moments afterwards?

Than yea, we have 2 completely different opinions on what evil is.
 

ZeroLove

Well-known Member
So you think it would be evil to knock your brother out despite the fact that you know for a fact he will be just fine moments afterwards?

Than yea, we have 2 completely different opinions on what evil is.

Depends on my reason for knocking him out. If it was to stop him from hurting other people (like Dante), then no, but if it was to stop him from preventing me to do something that would mean that alot of people would die (like Vergil), then yes.
 

Tony_Redgrave

TimeLord Detective
Moderator
I'll just throw my piece here as well.

First of all, I love Vergil, therefore I might sound a bit biased, but I will try to refrain from doing so.

Vergil might be cruel, mean, cool, full of pride and many other things but certainly not evil.

However, not to confuse the issue, I am not saying he is actually good either. For me his case rests somewhere in the middle. The term "antihero" is pretty close to what Vergil is. From wiki: In fiction, an antihero (sometimes antiheroine as feminine) is generally considered to be a protagonist whose character is at least in some regards conspicuously contrary to that of the archetypal hero, and is in some instances its antithesis in which the character is generally useless at being a hero or heroine when they're supposed to be one. Some consider the word's meaning to be sufficiently broad as to additionally encompass the antagonist who (in contrast to the archetypal villain) elicits considerable sympathy or admiration. The term dates to 1714, although literary criticism identifies the term in earlier literature.

To clarify some things, by hero I do not mean the person who saves the day, but the term in literature. In a few words I refer to the Main Character. Usually the main character in a game DOES actually save the day, but not in every game. Popular example is Kratos from God of War. Even when in the first game he was actually working to save the humans, he was doing it because he wanted to settle things with Ares and relieve himself of the nightmares he had. And even his way of saving the day was distorted. Sacrificing whoever stood in his way be it man or monster to achieve his goal. Kratos is a perfect antihero example. So is Gutts from the Anime/Manga/Game Berserk.

Clarification number two: I know that Vergil is not the Main Character of the game. However he is one of the main characters. His role is as important as Dante's is and without him the game wouldn't exist. That is why I considered the term antihero fitting for him.

Vergil is the typical antihero archetype that lusts for power and is willing to sacrifice everything and everyone in order to achieve that wish. Many popular Japanese characters share this lust, like Vegeta from Dragonball Z and Sasuke from Naruto. These characters kill and destroy without a care as long as their deeds bring them close to their original goal. In few lines, they go with "the ends justify the means". For them, their obsession with ultimate power is so great, that they are able to overlook every bad or otherwise unforgivable deed they do if it's for their goal. Does that make them evil?

If this was a D&D game I'd make Vergil's allignment Chaotic Neutral. From wiki again: Chaotic Neutral is called the "Anarchist" or "Free Spirit" alignment. A character of this alignment is an individualist who follows his or her own heart, and generally shirks rules and traditions. Although they promote the ideals of freedom, it is their own freedom that comes first. Good and Evil come second to their need to be free, and the only reliable thing about them is how totally unreliable they are. Chaotic Neutral characters are free-spirited and do not enjoy the unnecessary suffering of others, but if they join a team, it is because that team's goals happen to coincide with their own at the moment. They invariably resent taking orders and can be very selfish in their pursuit of personal goals. A Chaotic Neutral character does not have to be an aimless wanderer; they may have a specific goal in mind, but their methods of achieving that goal are often disorganized, unorthodox, or entirely unpredictable.

Vergil fits completely with this description. He is completely free. Nowhere bound by anything, neither family ties neither any particular enemy. He follows his own heart, his own rules if you prefer in doing things. He shuns outside rules and just does what HE thinks is right. The most obvious example is that he will not use guns as a personal rule. Good and Evil come second in his mind. He just does what needs to be done to achieve his goal. He prefers working alone, and only teamed-up with Arkham because they both wanted to open the gate to the Demon World. However, he never saw Arkham as a friend or a partner, just someone that would help him reach his goal faster, otherwise he wouldn't have teamed-up with him. He is very selfish with a very specific goal in mind (power) and his methods of achieving that are unpredictable. He clearly holds no love for demons - he killed both Beowulf and Hell Vanguard mercilessly - yet holds some respect for the species as a whole since his father was one - thus he preferred staying in the Demon World instead of staying to Earth.

Guys like Vergil are really dangerous because they never stop thinking about their ambition. They have a one-track mind until they have realized that and will perform cruel and evil acts with no remorse. However they are not evil by nature. Someone evil does Evil stuff because he enjoys it. Because he likes making others feel miserable. Etc. Lord Voldemort is Evil. Freezer is Evil and Sauron is Evil. But not Vergil in my opinion.
 

D-Sparda

Nothing is true, everything is permitted
See, I don't think the means justifies the end when so many people end up dying, because of the demons unleashed in the process. Dante is doing a good job killing off the demons and helping out people without being on a quest for power and since Dante's and Vergil's power level is basically the same, then Vergil would be able to do that as well. However, instead Vergil chooses to embrace his demonic side and strives for more power. His ambitions is what makes him be evil, imo.
What's ironic, is the fact the power Vergil tried to obtain is in Dante's hands. What's even funny is that Dante doesn't use it(beside the Mundus battle) and let it hang on his wall. What a waste of power if you ask me.
 

ZeroLove

Well-known Member
What's ironic, is the fact the power Vergil tried to obtain is in Dante's hands. What's even funny is that Dante doesn't use it(beside the Mundus battle) and let it hang on his wall. What a waste of power if you ask me.

Not everyone just wants more power or wants to use the power they have.
 

V's patron

be loyal to what matters
Depends on the story because if its only DMC3 than he is an antihero, but if I take in the first light novel in to account then I would say he is a villian since he purposely killed Dante's friends and associates just to get Dante to awaken. That's a villian.
 

Tony_Redgrave

TimeLord Detective
Moderator
Depends on the story because if its only DMC3 than he is an antihero, but if I take in the first light novel in to account then I would say he is a villian since he purposely killed Dante's friends and associates just to get Dante to awaken. That's a villian.

Well, in the novel he was already Mundus' puppet though, so his actions aren't completely his own.
 

D-Sparda

Nothing is true, everything is permitted
Not everyone just wants more power or wants to use the power they have.
He won't save the world with just Rebellion, Ebony and Ivory, so he better use a more efficient weapon like the Sparda. First thing he should do his travel around the world to destroy all the Hell Gates that those demons come from. For the finishing touch, he should annihilate the remaining demons on Earth.
 

ZeroLove

Well-known Member
He won't save the world with just Rebellion, Ebony and Ivory, so he better use a more efficient weapon like the Sparda. First thing he should do his travel around the world to destroy all the Hell Gates that those demons come from. For the finishing touch, he should annihilate the remaining demons on Earth.

He's done mighty fine so far. :)
 
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